Ask HN: Should I leave a dev job where I'm paid for doing almost nothing?
I’ve been very dilemmatic about my current career situation and I’m hoping I can get some advice from the people here at HN.
I've joined my current company 3years ago as a web developer. By the end of my first year with the company, they decided to offshore most of their technical work. I was subsequently promoted to be the project manager to manage the offshore vendors.
On paper, I’m currently a project manager. But I'm really just a middleman between the internal users and the offshore vendors. On average, I only spend about 3 hours a day sending emails to vendors. I usually spend the rest of the hours doing my own things.
I've lots of freedom at managing my time too! Because I can have long lunch breaks, I've recently started moonlighting through a freelance assignment to teach programming during lunch time at places within 30mins distance from my office. It's crazy how I get to do my own things during office hours while still getting paid! I literally have zero stress and I’m so happy every day. It doesn’t feel like a job at all!
However, lately, I’ve started to worry if this is going to hurt my technical career in the long run. I'm pretty sure my current job has nothing great to boast about at interviews when I've to move on to a new job. Although I still continue to learn newer tech on my own such as React, Angular, etc, it's worrying to wonder how much of these counts as real experiences when I really need to find a new job.
A part of me feels my current job is a rare find and I can't bear to just walk away. It feels silly to find a more demanding job just for “work experiences” when I can earn additional income through freelance gigs during office hours!
But another part of me is also telling myself I should leave this job asap for the long-term good.
Has anyone been through a job like this before? What path did you take and how did things turn out? Would you recommend that I stay at my current job for all the perks?
I would argue you're managing a team of offshore developers to achieve business goals at a fraction of the cost. Which is a valuable skill that usually pays more than a junior / mid level programmer's salary.
But I've done work like this and understand it's not exactly most rewarding or fun (language barriers, early morning/late night calls etc...). So you should probably think about what you want to be doing down the road professionally. Do you want to be in more of a managerial role or do you want to be a senior developer?
I’ve only been sending emails to offshore vendors about the things we have to do. I’m not sure if I’m truly managing a team of developers. The offshore vendor will write the specs, do everything from specifications to development to documentations.
All I was really doing was reviewing the work and then approve/reject their work.
Honestly, I’m not exactly sure I want to be more of a managerial role or developer. I do however fear that I may lose my technical knowledge in my current job since I only have to send emails to offshore vendors. My current job does make me realise the “freedom” I get from a managerial role that I will probably not get from a developer role though. I did consider transiting to a managerial role when I’m closer to my 40s or 50s if a managerial role is really so much less demanding than a developer role. But again, I’m not sure if my current job is a true reflection of what a managerial role is because it just feels insanely easy and comfortable.
> I’m not sure if my current job is a true reflection of what a managerial role is
A person I went to grade school with is a project manager with a tech company, and I forgot more about tech and the interwebz than she ever knew. She can't do maths and she can't code (not my strenghts either) but shit, I'd be stunned if she even knows what PR is or even ever heard of Brin or Page.... I'm guessing she has has other formidable skill sets but, ya know!
Look, if you really are extremely happy hang onto this job for dear life.
But if no one else will tell you, I will. This is a dead end job. It only takes a quick moment of someone noticing what you are up to (and frankly I'm shocked that your moonlighting isn't against your job agreement) for you to be out of work. Once that happens you are going to have to dance to tell a decent story of the value you added at this gig.
If this were me, I'd be _running_ for the exits.
> someone noticing what you are up to
You mean the job he was employed for, that they decided to outsource some of but continued to keep him on to manage?
I don't see the problem. The "value he added" was experience in the field and management of relations between the different stakeholders.
I bet he'll have to do some work when those outsourced coders come up with something that doesn't fit the bill, that's for sure.
I think the GP means the moonlighting while his employer thinks he's doing work for them.
So it would all be fine if he just sat and stared at the wall I suppose.
From most employers' perspective, probably yes.
For you it's the way up. You already are a project manager and very effiecent one at that! Next step is management/head of department. So when you apply for your next job your experience will be project management.
I am being serious. What if what you do in three hours the other guy needs a day? What if you instead of ten times only send email once or twice and all is done? What if you convey your message that much better?
You should always strive to have someone pay to make you better.
If you are in a job that is improving your skills that will get you to your next career milestone, great.
Doesn't sound like that is the case, so use the situation to your advantage. Use the spare time to gain practical experience in the skills you have identified for your career ambitions. ( Again, getting someone to pay you to get better, through freelance. )
Having an unchallenging job can make you feel like you are wasting away professionally if you don't have a plan for the future. Being able to say: I want to get job X, and am working to get necessary skills Y & Z, can make you feel better about your short and long term outlook.
Sounds like you are de-motivated. If you leave this position you essentially lose your safety net and you need to ask yourself is it worth it. Find your passion, make it cashflow passively and then you can leave risk free.
I have to admit that you are right about my fear of losing that safety net I have at my current job. It feels so safe and my life feels like so much easier thus happier.
Cash flow passively? Did you mean like starting a business or investment?
I'd write a list. Come up with a strategy!
A strategy is holistic - it covers all the moving parts, which includes you, your mind and how it works, your preferences, age, responsibilities, expenses, dependents, what you are aiming for as well as external factors: the realities of this job (will you be made redundant because they see you are not busy?), freelancing (it's hard if it's your main source of income), the job market in your town, country and globally.
I'd write out some potential outcomes, bad and good and explore how you will feel about them.
And watch out for who owns the IP you create while you are moonlighting during your lunchbreak.
Don't quit. You have a good title, and your staying current with new tech--Plus you teach. So when you leave, and interview you tweak the time line... no one has to know you also teach during 9-5 hours and not at night and werkends (you go getting grinder you).
Schedule some inteviews, no crime there. Personally I LOVE the interview (but I'm not in tech), I interview at least once a year to stay sharp. I recently interviewed with my current employer for a position I would Never be seriously considered for, but my department director took the time due to my performance reviews.
You post the question because you know that it's a privilege that won't last forever. What if the company eliminate the position in 3 months? What if that's going to take 3 years? How can your future interviewers measure your capabilities and contribution here?
Meanwhile this uncertainty would end up eating more time of yours.
If it was happening to myself, I would look for other opportunities within the company or outside of the company while the situation lasts.
A friend of mine told me that life is never easy. If it is, someone else must be taking care of things for you.
Perhaps you are doing an excellent job? The best project managers I have had played Starcraft all day and left us developers alone so that we could work. Only meetings when there were problems, none of those "daily checkups."
"I literally have zero stress and I’m so happy every day."
And therefore you want to change your job? If I were you I would stop moonlighting during lunch breaks because that is probably in breach of your employment contract and grounds for dismissal.
If you are enjoying it, which it sounds like you are, then I would stay and see if you can evolve your role into something even more.
An idea just based on what you wrote is pitch a community outreach program to your company where they sponsor a daily lunch class to help teach programming to those looking for a career change. I know many US states actually give large tax breaks to companies who do things like this.
I think I enjoy the freedom and that little amount of work that I only need a few hours a day to complete. It’s pretty easy most of the time. This is essentially what I love most about my current job.
I don’t think my company is going to be happy to know that I’m actually moonlighting at lunch time. I haven’t told any one at my company about my recent freelance gig teaching students programming during my lunch break.
I suspect I’m having all that freedom because it seems like nobody actually realise that my work can be done so easily.
Don't discount low stress levels. Those can be expensive.
Even if you're only performing a few hours of actual labor per day, are you still available to be reached during some sort of standard office hours? Being available is a large part of a job.
It sounds like you’re doing a job of Product Manager/Business Analyst, and not Project Manager.
You are doing great. Life goals.
Maybe you could write an E-book of how to get into your position. I would buy it.
How to find a sucker employer? It won't be easy because you need to find someone how is (i) hiring which implies (ii) they are making money and (iii) know how to run a business. The exception might be VC backed companies, but then it's the VC's who need to be the sucker, maybe you'll find them. The OP got lucky due to changes at an existing employer that were outside of his control.
The other option is a job where you are so good at it you can do it in 3 hours where it takes someone else 8, and the employer either doesn't care (rare) or you are working remotely so they can't see. Or maybe you can get the 8 down to 3 through outsourcing some of it or coming up with a good system.
I think it would be hard to systematically get a job like the OP, probably a lot more likely to get the same effect (eventually) by starting a business.
I think he definitely got his fair share of luck, but it's hard to negate that he has got some talent, no?
I've been a dev/lead dev for like 10 years, and I believe I've never had a single month of my career that I didn't have to work hard.
I need to work 10x(not productivity, but dedication) to sometimes get half-assed results in comparison to some peers that just slide over the problems and end up in a nice position.
> I think he definitely got his fair share of luck, but it's hard to negate that he has got some talent, no?
It's hard to tell. Maybe. But most orgs don't care if you're a so called 10xer - they still want you to grind for 40h/w to avoid other staff asking "why does bob get to play golf at lunchtimes everyday" if nothing else.
Don't fall into the capitalist mindset that you're only doing enough when you're about to die from overwork. That's the propaganda that is shoveled to the working class while the bourgeoise "add value" from their private yachts.
At the end of the day, what is it that you enjoy? You should be trying to maximize that. I would do exactly the amount of work necessary to maximize that, and no more.
These people telling you you should run to a more tiring job seem to be suffering from some kind of Stockholm Syndrome.
If your sweet deal eventually ends, you seem like a smart guy, I'm sure you can come up with some good buzzwords for your next interview.
It's fine that some people want to be like that, but despite all the propaganda, the workaholic life is not for everyone. Maybe it is for you, maybe it isn't. You do seem to be slightly uncomfortable with your situation, so you need to decide for yourself.
Personally that would be close to my dream scenario, although I would be trying to set up auto-forwards or something so I could reduce the 3 hours per day. :-)