Ask HN: Why would any senior engineer join an early stage startup?
A lot of friends, after a couple of early stage startup stints, decide to either join an established company or start on their own. Collectively we've concluded that it's almost never worth it to join somebody else's startup if you're a skilled ("senior") engineer with some sense of product and marketing.
Briefly, here are the reasons,
- Lack of control over product direction (if your hunch is different than founder, you got to disagree and commit)
- Taking a pay cut for small amount of equity with low odds of success
- Amount of time and energy you put in is almost equal if you were to start your own
So it makes sense to either start on your own (if you can afford the risk) or join a good team in an established company where you can save up some cash and recharge yourself with good work-life balance for a few years.
I would love to hear counter arguments.
P.S. - I acknowledge the benefits of joining early team for fresh graduates and such, my argument is mainly for folks who are further along.
Because it is fun and I don't feel like filing Form 3794-G to have a plant on my desk or something.
I worked in the US Gov't as my first job and the amount of wasted time due to bureaucracy and red tape was overwhelming. I will admit comparing the government to big business isn't fair, but I can't imagine it is a far step.
Also I prefer working on scrappier teams where the work is either the entire project or a large chunk, rather than being responsible for one screen or something.
I have never worked in a large business but it always makes me shake my head when I hear a place like Pinterest or something having 2,000 engineers. Like how? What can 2,000 engineers do that 200 can't?
You don't need 200 dev-ops. You don't need 200 front-end engineers. It just baffles me why these places with one product need so many engineers. I am sure it is business people thinking nine women can make a baby in one month.
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I will admit that the whole equity thing tripped me up at first. Now I just want a large salary, keep expenses low and hope I can get a few years before "It's been a fun ride".
Also, for any junior startup people: No one is your friend. Absolutely be friendly and sociable but remember that it is a business at the end of the day.
Regardless of how many times the CxO says "We're a family!", you aren't. That same CxO will be forced to cut X% when times get rough. They may not like it but it is a business, not a family.
Dwell on the worst cases, keep your resume sharp and trust your gut rather than your heart. You may love life, but tides shift fast in startups (both good and bad).
This is a very honest and non-naive answer about the pros and cons of working startups. The "We're a family!" bit made me laugh too - the startup cliches are real.
I would add - don't assume that because its a startup that means you have to be working 60 hour weeks. I have worked in and known plenty of other people who have worked in startups that were 9-5 with hardly any over time. There are plenty of startups that succeed with the majority of the employees working normal office hours, you just don't hear about them because they don't brag in interviews about how hard they are "hustling" and how they do yoga at 5am in the morning etc.
There is a sweet spot regarding the timeline of early stage startups and when to join. If they are too small, yes, a lot of the cons you mention are valid, except for maybe the first one - I'd say earlier stage startups who are at the point of bringing on engineers are actually looking for more input and outside validation than larger sized businesses.
For me, joining a 20-50 person startup is the ideal sweet spot. Compensation is often comparable to larger companies, of course it's about finding the startups who actually respect and fairly compensate their employees (just like working w/ clients). I've been in a situation before where I was interviewing with two companies at the same time, similar positions with similar stage startups (very very early, less than 3 people) - we got to numbers and one of them offered me $50k while the other offered $180k. The funny part is that the one that paid more, I am willing to bet, ended up being significantly less work than the other one. Point is, it's not black and white. It's about finding the opportunity that is right for you.
Also I think a big benefit is influence in company culture. At every smaller startup I've been at, there has been a direct communication channel with the CxO regarding anything one would like to discuss, often including new perks or events that management was considering hosting. The feedback loop is smaller and more direct.
- autonomy / lack of bureaucracy
- chance to work mostly on green-field projects
- influence over tech direction and architecture
- visibility into other departments; influence; not being siloed
- opportunity for leadership roles of team grows
Plus culture tends to be different between startups and larger or more established companies. Some people just prefer the startup-type culture.
Some startups have good work/life balance
Startups more likely to allow remote
Great experience if you want to start your own startup later (eg understand funding rounds, growth, people problems, etc without risking your own $)
Luck has a lot to do with it, but in my case I actually had control over the part of the product I owned, the pay was decent and even if you do work hard you are not risking any of your assets.
I am not sure why do you assume lack of control, obviously a jerk founder can make your life miserable but usually young startups bring senior engineer exactly for the opposite reason- to help the company build a better product using someone's experience
Picking a place to work and then enjoying it is a very personal decision. The weighting on these attributes is not the same for everyone. What works for some may not work for you. As cliche and trite as it sounds, it's true.
Designate each side of the coin for one of your two choices. flip the coin and cover it with your hand. Now, instead of looking at the coin, think about which result you hoped would be revealed.
I wouldn't unless I have no choice. There are so many startups with bad management that itself makes it not worth it. I would only do it if it is my own startup.
Some senior engineers enjoy a challenge or perhaps believe in what the startup is doing.