561 points by Zaheer 2 days ago
Former Apple Store employee here! You would be surprised by how people become blind from all the smokes and mirrors of the Apple branding and advertisement.
I remember one day, there was a 40-something years old man, that came in with an iPhone X and switched it for an XS, adding 500 euros.
Only to return 1 week later to switch the XS for an XR with better storage, adding 250 euros.
Only to return 2 weeks later, to switch the XR for an XSmax adding 400 euros more or less.
This gentleman was so brainwashed into FOMO by Apple that threw 1000+ euros out of the window.
One other time, there was another gentleman that clearly couldn't afford an iPhone X. He was so torn when deciding if to buy or not. I tried to give him hints that it was better if he let go of it ("maybe wait next year, your iPhone 5 is still doing the job"), but no, in the end he decided to go for it and we tried to do a 6 months payment plan. His card got rejected. Then we tried with a 10 months payment plan. Rejected. Then we tried with 20 months one. Finally, accepted. He wasn't even happy about that. Was probably thinking about what he was going to have to renounce for that iPhone. I tell you, the whole process was physically painful.
>I remember one day, there was a 40-something years old man, that came in with an iPhone X and switched it for an XS, adding 500 euros. Only to return 1 week later to switch the XS for an XR with better storage, adding 250 euros. Only to return 2 weeks later, to switch the XR for an XSmax adding 400 euros more or less. This gentleman was so brainwashed into FOMO by Apple that threw 1000+ euros out of the window.
Sounds like quite orthogonal to Apple, and relevant to personal issues the single anecdotal example person had, overcompensating by constantly buying gadgets, etc...
There are tons of people with 2, 3, 4, 6+ year old Macs, iPhones, and iPads (my iPad is from 2014 or so and works just fine)...
Yes, what you said is completely true. I am not saying that Apple is evil, I personally own Apple products and I think they're great (but overpriced). I just wanted to point out the length some people go just to have Apple in their pockets. Apple is not evil, but they know what they're doing, and they know that the prestige of their products is used by people to try and neutralize the sense of worthlessness they feel inside.
This manipulation is even more evident now that they are selling phones that are almost identical to the previous generation, bring nothing substantially new to the table, if not new smokes and mirrors. I'm sure that in their headquarters, they now spend less and less time innovating and more and more time refining their selling skills.
And you are also a founder of a fashion company which is even more about selling a temporary sense of worth than what Apple does.
How can you criticize Apple when you are doing the same thing?
Did you really resort to scavenging OP's online presence in an attempt to discredit his anecdote against Apple?
To me this behavior reinforces OP's point.
You should try working at a car dealership. People do this with brand new vehicles, just multiply the euros by 20!
Applying just now ;)
Right on, it sounds like the customer here was hooked on the unboxing experience or something like that, or was seeking out a distraction from life.
Those "tons" are a minority, most people immediately upgrade.
Apple stuff lasts, this is not an Apple issue, any of those phones would have been good for several years. I'm only my 3rd iPhone in 9 years (soon to replace it though). Also 3rd iPad in 9 years. My Macbook Air is from 2012. Apple do software updates going quite far back. A lot of Apple's hardware looks exactly the same from generation to generation, so even if you updated, how would anyone know? If customers want to chop and change that's on them, Apple is not forcing it really.
What you said it totally true. But to say that Apple is not forcing is a white lie. It's true that they're not pointing guns at us, but they are smoothly pointing us in that direction. There's a psychological pressure to have the latest tech, otherwise not only your phone, but also you yourself, are outdated and uncool. No kind of manipulation was ever forceful. That's what makes it a manipulation. You think you're doing it, but another person/company slowly brought you to do it.
A lot of people are intelligent and strong enough to resist this brainwash, but a lot of others are not.
Blaming Apple for the general human desire to demonstrate status to one another seems like a bit much, and IMO grants them a level of implied power over society that they haven’t earned.
I mean... is your theory that if Apple didn’t exist, people wouldn’t buy things to look cool?
> A lot of people are intelligent and strong enough to resist this brainwash, but a lot of others are not.
Speaking of signaling status... somehow comments like this are always posted by folks who sort themselves into the first category.
Maybe people buy things you don’t want to buy just because they like them, not because they’re too dumb to resist “brainwashing.”
> Speaking of signaling status... somehow comments like this are always posted by folks who sort themselves into the first category.
I mean, I can't think of a person who'd be aware enough of it and be willing to state this as a member of the second category?
Which makes it hard to distinguish between a real phenomenon, and a rationalization that people employ to frame their consumer choices as superior to others'.
Baffling the more vulnerable customers with bullshit to sell them expensive things is hardly a phenomenon isolated to Apple or even to the United States. That's a proud cornerstone of Capitalism.
One could argue a whole lot of highly valued startups are built on the premise of selling conveniences to people with far too much money and not enough sense.
US = Apple = Capitalism
I'm sorry if I came off as a virtue signaler. No I'm not blaming Apple, and of course people would buy cool things to look cool even without them. What I'm saying is that Apple is especially good at applying pressure in right spots: as you said, the human desire for status and fear of being left behind. Some still haven't recognized it and I've seen countless people make poor financial decisions because of their blindness to what is moving them to buy. Maybe I should have used "aware" instead of "intelligent", since intelligent people can fall for it too. Of course I'm generalizing and as you said, people also buy Apple just because they like it and can afford it, I did that too. But too many times I've seen people really torn and staying there thinking to themselves for half an hour if they should buy it or not, because they know they shouldn't. If you just like a thing, but you know that buying it will have very bad financial consequences for you for the next 10-20 months, it's not difficult to resist. So the fact that all these people were buying anyways, makes me come to the conclusion that there were more powerful internal forces moving them, then just "liking Apple".
>There's a psychological pressure to have the latest tech
You mean marketing? What company isn't doing that?
Yes, but not only. Please read my other responses.
The phones from 2012 would still be perfectly functional if the software didn't come with increasingly ridiculous performance requirements. What's the reason for the upgrade? Camera?
With the ability to easily swap batteries, and more efficiently written software, nobody would have to really update their phones. Which is why I guess most batteries are now integrated.
It's a terribly waste just for corporate profits and peoples vanity's sake.
You can have the batteries swapped out though. I had the battery on my 6S replaced twice. The first time I got it for free because of the degraded performance issue and even the second time was very well priced ($60??) and have the phone a new wind. However, now the power connector had become very loose and disconnects randomly when moved wrong. I probably could have that fixed as well for cheap, but want the new camera. On my recent vacation I took almost no photos because I wanted my wife to take all the good shots with her XR Max.
I'm on the fence though because I use ApplePay a lot and cannot imagine using that with FaceId and I also am somewhat attached to the audio jack. I don't want to carry headphones for my phone and another set for my Switch when on a long trip.
Pro tip: 95% of the problems with the power connectors are due to dust trapped inside the charge hole. Yes, there is a lot of dust in there, even if you can't see it. No worries though. You can solve that problem in 2 minutes. Here's how:
1 take a clip, or something similar (thin and rigid) and use it to dig out the dust from the connector hole in your phone
2 be surprised at how much dust you actually find
3 keep digging out the dust
4 your phone is as new! Try charging it and you will see that it won't disconnect randomly anymore.
Hope it helps :)
p.s: We charge 10-15 euros for that in the store, and obviously don't tell how easily we got it fixed to the customer. I know, it's funny and infuriating.
Wow, thanks! I used a can of air, almost no dust at all came out, but it's fixed. So silly! Thank you very much! Now I'm likely gonna hold off for another year with upgrading from my 6S.
I wouldn't recommend digging inside the power connector with a metal clip.
A spurt of canned air followed by digging with a toothpick wrapped in cotton and damped with ethyl alcohol does magic.
Apple says the canned air can damage the connector. I can confirm toothpick + cotton does the trick, though.
When I had problem with charging on my iPhone 6 I've went to Apple Store with that and "genius" at Apple Store literally told me to use SIM removal tool to dig it out and then he proceed to do it on my phone as I watched. Pins are only on one side so as long as you be careful and not bend them you will be fine.
Huh I'm still on my first battery and it's decent but I have that same issue with the lightning connector so I'm also considering upgrading
Do you have AirPods ? or have you considered buying them ? I'm also on the fence about that Face ID stuff
I don't have air pots. I've been thinking about buying them since a long time, but I really don't have a good reason to other than that it's new and shiny. At least when traveling I'd still have to carry my current earphones for both my Switch and to connect to the airplane's entertainment system. I'd rather have fewer things I can lose or forget it simply have to find a place for. It's not a problem in everyday life, but I'm on airplanes a fair amount and the is never a good place for stuff like this.
> What's the reason for the upgrade? Camera?
I’m convinced that the camera quality degrades as the phone gets older/more used. What convinced me was my mom receiving a brand new 6S replacement from Apple and seeing the major camera improvement even though her broken 6S was in mint condition.
Can anyone provide some insight to this? It took years of speculation for us to learn our slower OS/battery concerns were real. I’m wondering if this is next.
My 5s took enough spills that I think some small opening in the case let lots of dust/sand get under then lens. The OG battery was losing sectors left and right too. Probably fixable, but I went with a new phone anyway, 5.5 years on a phone was long enough...
Lens scratching over time?
This certainly happens on older iPhones. People also get grease on it and it’s hard to remove. The new(ish) sapphire front elements make scratches much better.
Pretty sure it would have to be software if it happens at all. I don't believe the sensors in the camera degrade or wear out.
The 2016+ 15" Macbook Pro is at least one very clear exception. Mine has had keyboard (which includes logic board) replaced several times. Screen replaced 3 times. Brand new replacement unit once. Now getting intermittent black screens every 5 mins or so. I paid for an Apple but I got a lemon.
So, basically you replace your phone every two years. That's the rhythm that Apple and cell providers generally aim for (time for new housing design and length of contract). What other expensive item are you replacing as frequently?
I think it's unfair to place the blame entirely on consumers when Apple capitalizes on a culture which places value on having the latest gadgets and gizmos.
Typical consumerism. I have siblings who did the same for a fancy bed. These people are mostly helpless. And you're only an employee.. I'm sure it's not great to try to turn a customer away from a sale right ? Even as a sibling, unless I'm ready to start a family war there's no leverage.
ps: the 40yo man might have sold or made use of the other iPhone. I hope he did not just pile them up in a drawer.
For me personally, working there was a perpetual moral internal debate. I was good at convincing people that were on the edge of buying. On one hand, the more you sell, the higher the commission you get, for you and the whole team.
On the other hand, you have to sell tech that is one of the best, but for the time being, totally overpriced. Therefore, you have to manipulate a lot, and tell half-truths if not blatant lies at times, which is not great either.
This becomes much harder when you have to manipulate a person, that is clearly struggling in their decision because of financial reasons, into buying a phone priced 1000+ euros.
On the inside, I was always screaming "what in the world are you doing!"
The way I operated was this: when a manager was nearby me, I had to act the part, but when I was alone I tried, in a not so explicit way, to clear the fog in their brain and make them get back some reason in their heads. I prefer being able to sleep at night, instead of getting a few more bucks in my check.
To be clear, I like Apple products, and I personally own them ,because I was able to get them used (but brand new) with huge discounts in price, but they are not for everyone.
About the 40yo man, he gave us back his phone each time. The way it works is this: if you bring back a phone, you get an evaluation which is at best (even in perfect condition, got out of the box just a week earlier) half of the initial price tag.
You can get a new phone, give back your old one and pay the difference.
I read you work in Italy Apple Store, and this is the first time I hear Apple Store has commission.
Does anyone know any other region where Apple Store operate with commission, one of the things John Gruber likes to pride Apple are their employees don't have commission and therefore could give candid advice.
Or did All Apple Store has commission now since Burberry Queen took over?
He should have returned sooner, within two weeks you can return or exchange it for free can't you?
Once you open the plastic outside the box (not even the box itself) you can't return it for free, it might have been compromised in some way. Its value is automatically cut in half in the store's eyes.
I see you said you were in Italy, but just to be clear, in the US I have returned an iPhone bought in-store, nearly two weeks later, for a full refund.
Really? That's interesting. Good for you then :)
You can even turn it on, try it and then return it before 2 weeks for free in EU
This is, as far as I know, only possible if you bought it online.
You're right. Here I shop only online, I haven't been in a store (other than grocery store) for at least 5 years. When I buy something online, they deliver it same day to my doorstep, so why would I not. You can (for a small fee) use their service to pick up returned items (or return them yourself at their service center with no charge)
Physical Apple Store purchases too - https://www.apple.com/legal/sales-support/sales-policies/ret...
Apple integrates their online store with their B&M locations so closely it really wouldn't make any sense for them to have different return policies.
Mmm that was not our policy. I worked in Italy, so maybe there are different rules for different countries. But something like trying it out for 2 weeks, then coming back and getting a refund or switching it (for example for a different color) was never ever allowed.
I forgot to add that it is only for online purchasing (the only kind of purchasing I do for 10 years at least). It's 14 days minimum set by EU regulation. The item should not be used, but you're allowed to try, verify that it works, return it if you don't like it (no explanation at all needed), etc.
30 days in NL
oh bad deal for the 40yo man then..
I applaud your approach to sales, very empathetic. Are you still working there ?
Thank you. But any person with morals would do the same. No, I worked there for a few months. After a while they reached out to get me back there, but I declined.
Now you're selling altcoins to old people right ?
Of course! I thought there was no need to say ;)
"This gentleman was so brainwashed into FOMO by Apple that threw 1000+ euros out of the window"
for some people, a dinner out costs $2k.
that is why you should never judge your clients.
same thing for the other gentleman.
you don't know their stories, or their backgrounds.
I knew/know this person personally. We all knew him because he was an habitual client. He is working as a professor in high school. So the probability of him being so wealthy to change one iPhone per week are not that high. That said, even if he is, do you think that his behavior would be consider sane? His story is just to point out how the sense of worthlessness in some people is financially exploited by prestigious brand like Apple.
> That said, even if he is, do you think that his behavior would be consider sane?
I think your prejudices see him as some sort of insane man. When, as I've written above, there are people who spend a lot of cash indiscriminately.
Not all of us have to be financially careful.
> His story is just to point out how the sense of worthlessness in some people is financially exploited by prestigious brand like Apple.
Apple did not exploit anyone. If you desire something so much, then go for it. What imperative does Apple have to forbid someone to exercise their freedom?
I don't see how FOMO explains anything more than the first purchase. The second and third purchases just seem like random stupidity.
> seem like random stupidity.
Or phones are his thing. Everyone has a thing they have probably spent stupid relative amounts of money on. A gaming computer? Games? A guy I know from Jiu-Jitsu collects Gi's at $200+/each.
Could be stupidity, or compulsive fomo. I think that to do what he did, stupidity is not enough, you have to have a big fear or insecurity inside to work as a sufficient motivator.
I know that nobody should be stretching themselves financially thin for a newer iPhone. Unless it’s something like an app developer needing to buy a test phone, which this clearly wasn’t.
> I know that nobody should be stretching themselves financially thin for a newer iPhone.
I think people are free to do whatever they want with their money. Is my view an extreme one nowadays?
Sure, I think that he should have the literal freedom to do so, but that does not excuse him or Apple from being roundly criticized and berated for it. Like freedom of speech, your right to say something doesn’t make that thing right.
How do you know he was stretching himself financially? Perhaps he was rich and 1000 euros was not much money to him.
He signed up to a 20 month payment plan?
That's another guy. There are 2 person in the story. The first one throw money out of the window. The second one is the one struggling for money and need the payment plan.
The 20 month person was a different guy
Those were two different people.
> "Then we tried with 20 months one. Finally, accepted"
The social pressure for having "an old phone" most have been incredibly high.
Something like that happen to me on university, I had a 5 years old phone with no Whatsapp/Blackberry chat. It made me feel so left behind and even sad sometimes.
The cool thing now is that you can have a brand new 2019 phone with the latest tech for 300/400 euros. So if you want to keep the pace, you can do it without selling your soul. I think it's more about the temporary sense of worthiness that an Apple product can give you.
Even for 100 Euros, but non-tech people don't always know that. Many of them think that to stay current they need "an iPhone", and 100 Euro iPhones simply don't exist.
you can even get an iPhone 7/8 for reasonable price right now, if Apple is a requirement. I'm still on my 7 from late 2016 and will stick to it through this cycle as well.
Here I am with an iPhone 6 still.
It plays music, like my iPod did. As well as podcasts. I don't use any apps otherwise that don't come with it from Apple. On the rare occasion someone decides to call me it answers, sometimes (it's slow to answer, but after 3 retries, sometimes the first).
I try to answer text messages on my Mac with Messages.app. It's easier to type.
Not sure I want to upgrade. I was planning on it. I can afford it. Kind of just trying to see how long I can keep it going for fun. I think I've had it for close to 5 years now.
My iPhone 6s, with its weird turning off and on randomly at times and other funky behaviors, was (and will always be) my favorite phone I ever owned! I'm not joking :)
Same, still have mine since release. My only issue is the battery but that's cheaply replaced. I'm still deciding if i should upgrade or try to push another year or two with it.
When my 6 broke, I decided to switch carriers (from prepaid) to try out the new (at the time - earlier this year) XR. For the 1 week I owned it, there was something strange about it that I just can't describe. It wasn't buyers remorse, but it just felt wrong in my hands. I genuinely asked myself if spending 1k + 100/mo was worth it. Ended up returning the phone, returned back to my old carrier, and ended up going with a 6s making my purchase at 250 + 30/mo. No qualms.
Was it your first job dealing with people? People are funny, and it can be hard to account for their motivations and ways in which they want things and make changes. Ascribing these anecdotes to Apple's advertising/brainwashing program is a little bit silly.
Not really. I worked at a movie theater before that. I saw all kinds of crazy people and funky behaviors there. So I was used to it!
That's bad. But imagine these guys chose similarly priced Android phones instead.
I thought it couldn't get any worse, but thank you for reminding :)
It's kind of sad really. Businesses prey on the human condition and there's nothing we can do about it because, well, Apple's not really breaking the law and we all like good cellphones.
I find marketing pretty unethical. Manipulation of emotions and the brain to sell stuff.
Commodities seem harmless, but brainwashing people to buy moderate quality products at luxury prices is horrifying.
No mention of self-control.
Smartphone hardware is done. There's no significant gain in buying a new smartphone if you have bought one in last 3 years, absolutely nothing if the battery is replaced; there could be even diminished returns if you buy a new smartphone(unavailability of headphone jack, losing metal body, losing faster biometric authentication).
Improvement in camera could be enticing, but the platforms to which the photos, videos are shared would compress them anyways making them all nearly identical. Better frame rates is the only thing which makes a difference. Case in point : MKBHD made a blind test last year and low cost smartphone Mi Pocophone which scored pathetic camera performance in individual reviews came out top in the blind test.
So, the subscription services are the new lifeline for the hardware manufacturers; included free subscription should add some value to the new customers and if the SW services work; may be compensate for diminishing hardware sales.
"Case in point : MKBHD made a blind test last year and low cost smartphone Mi Pocophone which scored pathetic camera performance in individual reviews came out top in the blind test."
Marques doesn't have kids.
I loved my Redmi Note 4. I even liked the chin, as the buttons were on it - so my usable screen size was actually larger than the Pixel XL that replaced it.
That phone took perfectly acceptable shots with still subjects that I'd have been happy to live with but the shutter lag was terrible. I have six months of mostly blurry photos of my kids solely because the phone couldn't deal with any amount of fast motion so it had to go.
Recently upgraded to a Pixel 3a solely because of Night Sight and for my use case it was a no-brainer as I can't get the time back. I also couldn't give a rats behind about notches and bumps - my phones go straight into bumper cases and 9-glass before they're turned on.
Some people really do need the less-talked-about features that are only of late getting any amount of attention by manufacturers.
Absolutely. I had the same experience with the first Moto G phones - reviews called it amazing quality for the price and had camera samples that were admittedly very nice. There was no way I could get a picture of my dog in that time, or even a group picture with at least one of my friends/family members being blurry - there's always movement with people, even if it's a bit, and youtube testers rarely account for that.
Going from a crappy camera to something like on Pixel3a is truly a leap especially when you are looking photos yourself on the screen.
But say you had bought iPhone 8 (same year as Redmi Note 4) and you share pictures to social media; Pictures from iPhone 11 would be indiscernible to those who see your photos at the other end.
> Pictures from iPhone 11 would be indiscernible to those who see your photos at the other end
I disagree. As an iPhone 8 user even iPhone X pictures are massively improved, not to mention a Huawei P30 or Pixel 3XL... night sight doesn't exist and post-processing by external apps only.
I wouldn't say Massively improved. But it was definitely noticeable. By not massively improved, I mean photos from iPhone 8 looks fine, but when you gets to compare with X, you immediately notice the difference.
The same goes to X and Xs, although the difference is a little less drastic, but P30 and Pixel were both winning, and when you compare it, it was obvious.
I have an 8 and while the X is subjectively better, a moment or two in snapseed can more than make up the difference.
That night photo difference looks a lot better as one example in the landing page. Would that not be a noticeable difference?
> Smartphone hardware is done. There's no significant gain in buying a new smartphone if you have bought one in last 3 years, absolutely nothing if the battery is replaced;
I am excited about the possibility of graphene based batteries. https://www.graphene-info.com/graphene-batteries and https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-develops-battery-mat...
Which could be as early as 2020-2021 if the leaks are correct https://www.techspot.com/news/81435-samsung-rumored-readying... my current phone will last me until then.
More about that https://www.wired.co.uk/article/graphene-batteries-supercapa...
It seems this graphene tech can be used for other things too, the future looks exciting.
Graphene battery, foldable display, 5G network, >1TB internal storage, Fingerprint reader at any point on the screen could all kickoff new generational cycle.
But, it will happen in increments and for all the above features to be available in one smartphone which is affordable, will take another 3-4 years and hence my OP comment that current generation is done.
> Graphene battery, foldable display, 5G network, >1TB internal storage, Fingerprint reader at any point on the screen could all kickoff new generational cycle.
These are all nice, but I'd rather have thin AR glasses powered by the phone's CPU/GPU at some point. Might fix the smombie infestation, too.
Your comment made me research what happened to Google glasses and I found this:
Why are these not available to the public?!? Because of the Google glass PR disaster?
I think that's probably the reason Apple decided not to take a risk with their version:
I would love one, just for our(brain) memory or lack of thereof; especially to remember faces of people we meet once,
when we meet again after several years and they ask do you remember me? The smart AR glasses should give us the name via bone conduction!
Let's see. I don't agree with many of the points.
5G Network? Every phone will have it in 3 years.
>1TB storage? In Android land you can already buy a 1TB microSD card and stick it into your phone resulting in >1TB total storage. Are many people doing that?
Fingerprint reader in the screen: Who cares if its below the display or on the back of the phone? It's a rather small improvement.
Meant TB, corrected.
>Fingerprint reader in the screen: Who cares if its below the display or on the back of the phone? It's a rather small improvement.
Fingerprint authentication at any point on the screen could decrease the overall time taken for unlocking the phone and getting to the intended action. It's quite common in android to have always on Amoled display for notifications, touching the notification can directly take one to the app without having to authenticate separately first.
Damn. We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
What would the speed comparison be for all that storage via microSD vs internal?
Isn’t a 1TB microSD card going to be much much slower than the storage used in an iPhone?
Correct, a lot slower; Hence I specifically mentioned 'internal' storage.
>and hence my OP comment that current generation is done.
May be it should have worded better, I reread the comment multiple times and I don't get where the current generation is done comes from. It reads to me as Hardware is done, period.
The market is saturated, and of course every company will try to milk it for as long as they could, while trying to figure out the next big thing, if there is any that is the size of current Smartphone market.
> blind test
Well yes, all cameras look the same if you do a "blind" test. :)
Not that type of blind.
Basically given a scenario, take a picture with n number of phones varying in quality/price. MKBHD the Youtuber then found that a worse quality camera came on top as the "best" quality for twitter/instagram users because that bad quality camera over-compensated with over exposure and some other factors (as far as I recall).
Essentially, camera quality in this day and age doesn't matter, unless you're a "pro" (which I predict 90% of the people who buy the 11 pro aren't)
Case in point: I have a SE and it takes photos fine. I'm not any model or pro, so taking pictures of basic day-to-day events or things is good enough for me.
May I suggest the parent comment was being sarcastic?
Thought of that for a second, but didn't catch on.
A few years back one of the big Android sites did a comparison, some new Android phone vs the current iPhone vs some DSLR
They had people vote on the 'best' picture, and they always chose the sharpest one. You could clearly make out which camera took which photo. The biggest problem was that the DSLR was never focused right so it was blurry.
out with you!
> MKBHD made a blind test last year and low-cost smartphone Mi Pocophone which scored pathetic camera performance in individual reviews came out top in the blind test.
This simply means that it was a crappy test. As far as I remember, people choose a colour profile that was much more punchy.
Cameras are much, much more than a colour profile. These tech reviewers are fun to watch but I wouldn't base my opinions solely on their work.
He took different pictures of same scene under same settings from about half dozen flagship phones, shared the picture on different social networks and asked people to vote.
This test for real-life camera usage is as objective as it can get. Most people shoot pictures to put on social networks, not to submit for documentary film awards.
>This test for real-life camera usage is as objective as it can get
Not at all, most people do not take different pictures of the same scene under the same settings from about half a dozen flagship phones, post it on Instagram and ask which one is better. In fact, this is the only time I've seen such usage.
In practice, people use a single phone to capture moments that do not come back and even if the scene is repeatable people prefer to succeed on the first take, therefore they will take photos until they get one that is good enough and editable. Most people don't even know how the photo will look like until they try a few edits. It is an intuitive process that involves multiple trials and misses.
So the best camera is the one that gives you the photo that is easiest to edit to achieve the picture you desire. #nofilter is a special case, a niche and If you ask me, it's not a nofilter just because the device applied a filter by itself.
Anyway, if that test was correct the cheap and great photos phone would have been a viral hit. When people see a great photo, they do ask how you took it. That did not happen.
The Pocophone was a huge hit though.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was subsidised by the Chinese government and filled with malware
I have a Sony A7 and a bunch of lenses. Prob 10k on lenses. I still use my iPhone 7 to take photos of my Daughter cos capturing the moment is more important the the detail or colour of the photo.
Most people don't edit photos. And to be honest those people posing for 5 minutes to get anyway a crappy picture in poses around famous places are proper pain in the ass.
If you want perfection, get a proper camera and more importantly learn how to shoot with it
While that might be true, the majority of people buying a smartphone are just regular people, not photographers, so they'll favour things like punchy colour profiles.
But at the end of the day it's not the opinion of a super-set of consumers that really matters. For owners of iPhones its whether the phone meets their own requirements and expectations that matters. Not whether huge tranches of non-iPhone owners agree with them or not.
I don't give a rat's butt whether 70% of consumers don't care about the features and characteristics of my phone. I care about them, and that's all that matters. Currently rocking a 6s which is serving me fine though.
Can't agree with that statement. There is a thing called Moore's law.
The smartphones will continue to grow and accelerate their hardware and software development. This is simply the future. I the next 50 years I think everyone will use just one device and this is more likely to be something like a smartphone.
What Steve Jobs did in his first iPhone presentation can't be done again. He simply set the bar so high that there is no bar anymore, I don't see how other companies will reach them, not because they can't but because they all try to copy them from that point on, instead of trying to innovate like they did.
I can't also really understand why the public is bashing so hard those events expecting miracles, and making statements that Apple is not innovating. What do you want cloaking software making you invisible? Let's be real, also who is that naive to think that even if they have developed something amazing they will release it right away. Things don't work like that in the real world.
Except Moore's law ended in 2012.
Apple and Steve did some truly "breakthrough" product announcements. Steve mentioned this in his iPad announcement. The timing was right, the technology was right, the market was right.
It's possible we're not going to get another one of those remarkable revelations like the iPhone and the iPad in our lifetimes. And that's ok.
The speed of change has been tremendous in the past 100 years and –besides doing a lot of good– also has serious social and ecological repercussions.
Perhaps I'm getting old, but maybe it's a good thing that the pace of change is slowing.
I've been using a OnePlus 5T since it was launched and I can't think of any reason to upgrade. It's still as fast as the day I got it, the screen is adequate for me, and it does everything I want to do. That it costs literally 1/4th of an iPhone Pro in my country is the icing on top.
> Smartphone hardware is done. There's no significant gain in buying a new smartphone if you have bought one in last 3 years, absolutely nothing if the battery is replaced; there could be even diminished returns if you buy a new smartphone(unavailability of headphone jack, losing metal body, losing faster biometric authentication).
That's true in the Android world as well. When the GPS in my three-year-old LG Stylo 2 finally crapped out so thoroughly (along with a puffed-up battery, perhaps with a built-in antenna being damaged?) that I couldn't ignore it anymore, I wound up getting a Stylo 5.
As it turns out, it has the same Qualcomm 450 SoC as the three-year-old phone it replaced. It's fast enough for my needs, but no speed demon. The only real upgrades are support for more of T-Mobile's LTE bands, a higher-resolution screen, an aluminum frame, a 3500 mAh battery up from 3000, and Android 9; the camera app is improved, and the Bluetooth stack is more up-to-date. Much to their credit, they had the courage to not remove the headphone jack. There is one major downgrade: the inevitable sealed-case, non-removable battery schtick that I really hate. I hope that fad passes by the time I need to replace this one, but there's too much money at stake for the phone manufacturers not to shaft their customers. I better hope the battery doesn't crap out prematurely.
That being said, I like the Stylo 5; the 2 had excellent battery life even when the battery got puffy, and the 5 is even better (at least in my first week of usage). That relatively-anemic 450 SoC is at least power-efficient.
It's not done. There is nothing in the market that I want and what I want is achievable. There's a lack of innovation, not a lack of potential for innovation.
> Smartphone hardware is done. There's no significant gain in buying a new smartphone if you have bought one in last 3 years, absolutely nothing if the battery is replaced; there could be even diminished returns if you buy a new smartphone(unavailability of headphone jack, losing metal body, losing faster biometric authentication).
Yep. I have a BLU smartphone that I bought for $55 bucks off of Amazon. It literally does everything I need and has now lasted me > 2 yrs with no sign of slowing down. I will never understand why people would pay the price equivalent to buying a decently speced out desktop or laptop for a phone when there are so many cheaper alternatives that provide the same features and functionality.
I use my phone so much now that all the actual differences in a more expensive device are significant. Even with the Pro ones it’s a bit like buying a mechanical keyboard. Does it really do anything a £3 OEM keyboard doesn’t? My phone was about the same price as my 3 year old i7 laptop and the processor is faster. It’s a more useful device to me.
I bought a couple of those BLU phones as testers to ensure our apps were usable regardless of device (in an office full of flagship phones this is easy to overlook in “hallway” testing)....I’m not generally a phone snob but I will say that using the BLU phones makes my 4 year old iPhone feel like an ultra luxury rocketship from the future. The difference in performance and quality is remarkable side by side.
There aren't many alternatives when you consider that cheap phones are Big Brother devices for Google.
And expensive phones aren't? As far as I can tell the only smartphone where you can be sure to not be spied on is yet to be released.
I grant you that an iPhone is still no guarantee, but there is a difference in the level of surveillance that Apple and Google exhibit.
Cheap phones provide the same functionality, they just do it slower.
> Improvement in camera could be enticing, but the platforms to which the photos, videos are shared would compress them anyways
Strongly agree, and the reason for that is that is that level of quality is good enough for the 99.99% use case of photography and anything above is simply a waste of storage space.
If you are actually a professional artist, it matters. If you're doing computer vision, it matters. For the other 99.99% of photos, it doesn't matter.
What Apple is selling at this point is just the aspiration that you're in the special 0.01%, or could be.
Agree and disagree.
Yes, the chips and sensors used in modern phone cameras are ridiculously good for the size and cost. And phone cameras started replacing budget and mid-price P&S cameras years ago.
But, Apple's move to a triple camera set-up is really compelling. Not only has the phone replaced the average P&S, it's now replacing higher end P&S. The main argument for a separate P&S these days is a zoom lens. Apple just made that argument moot (superzooms notwithstanding). You can now take landscape, snapshot, and portrait photos natively on the camera without stitching or cropping. That's amazing. Or, at least I think so.
I was considering replacing my wife's older Canon S90 P&S with a new Sony RX100 IV. I probably won't bother - I'll just replace her iPhone 8 with an 11 Pro.
> Smartphone hardware is done. There's no significant gain in buying a new smartphone if you have bought one in last 3 years
Agreed. Even a Xiaomi Mi A2 with Android One for 130-150€ is almost on par with these high end phones that cost eight times as much: It's fast enough. It has a gorgeous display. It has a decent camera and it has up-to-date software.
In these times of diminishing returns it's amazing that Apple is able to fetch these prices. It shows us how much of a vendor lockin there is. Perhaps (hopefully) also how much people are willing to pay extra for more privacy.
A privacy conscious company wouldn't remove from their app store all the VPN apps as they did in China
I doubt many people are buying iPhones for extra privacy.
Well I am. It's anecdotal but it's the one thing that keeps me on iOS.
I'd bet given the rise in privacy plugin use for browsers (Privacy Badger, uBlock, etc) I'm not the only one doing that either.
I am. Will not switch to Android unless there is some astonishing quality difference.
Snd it can't be a small number, as Apple constantly mentions privacy in their marketing, down to the level of individual services.
For the subset of people who care, they're virtually a monopoly.
I am, but I definitely agree many people don't consider privacy in that choice.
I guess that's why Apple seems to be positioning their Phones for `Pros`. I kind of feel like it's the `Note` equivalent of Galaxy series. And also for the same purpose, the showed videos of Professional Videographer shooting videos with the iPhone 11 Pro. Those are the people who'd probably take out raw video/pic and edit it in Premire or lightroom.
This opens a huge area of business for them, if they can convince ad film makers devices because the current set of filming devices that they use aren't inexpensive.
With Apple these days, Pro means ‘bloody expensive’, and even more so outside the US. The rebrand may help to justify the pricing, but it’s odd to do that with such an incremental update, rather than save it for a year with a bigger design change.
For a lot of the world, a $500 smartphone was a luxury, and a $1500 smartphone (like a $3000+ laptop, or $1000 monitor stand) is an unfunny joke.
While they’re amazing devices, they’re just not replacements for a real computer, being locked down, with no exposed file system, and the imprecision of touch-only input.
I live in a country where practically no one except businesses possess personal computers and maybe 50% of the urban population has a smart phone (usually some $30 Huawei crap). I worry that this kind of leap frogging that 3rd world countries do is harmful in this specific case. The web to them consists entirely of Facebook, YouTube, WhatsApp, and Instagram. Telecos provide extremely popular subsidized “internet” packages that consist exclusively of access to these sites. Instead of the web and technology being catalysts for production, they are solely used for consumption.
This in my opinion is very dangerous and will prevent the country from ever becoming a producer of information and services.
> Smartphone hardware is done.
I'm as sure as I agree with this statement that this can be a historic comment about smartphones until the next breakthrough happens :)
You can almost generalize to computers. It's still crazy the pace of pocket hardware has gone through. But these machines have more oomph than a pixar workstation in the 90s, the vast majority of the users will never even need 50% of that.
Unfortunately we all need the performance due to the unbelievable bloat of the web. And even with my iPhone X a lot of sites are still laggy and unpleasant to use. The state of the web is honestly really sad and makes me feel bad about our entire profession.
I would be so pissed if an iPhone X would lag on the web. I'm actually pissed right now just reading about it. BRUH
I find is pretty silly to say smartphone hardware is done when Apple is still sporting a notch.
There's nothing about sporting a notch that's problematic, except when it comes to OCD.
If it didn't have the notch it would just have a larger bezel on a side, or some BS like a popup camera.
The "camera behind screen" idea barely works (for obvious reasons), and is hardly what would revolutionize mobile hardware. It's an aesthetic concern, not a functional one.
Things that might do that, larger camera sensors (e.g. 1"), week or more long batteries, total voice control, etc.
I get what you are saying but that would still be a pretty incremental update right? It wouldn't make the phone significantly more usable, really only a bit prettier.
I think the point here is that the recent "big" features are all pretty minor things like 60fps screens etcetera, they are really nice but nowhere near as important as the new things we used to have every generation.
The notch is a rather small issue that only affects looks. When the display is off, you don't see it. When the display is on, you usually look at the display, not the notch.
Sure it's not pretty but personally I don't really care.
I think the notch is a lot less annoying than the weight. Maybe I have small weak hands, but I feel a physical strain from using my iPhone XS. Unfortunately you can’t seem to buy a new SE around here.
Same for me! When I first bought it, I liked that it felt “premium”, but after using it for a while, I definitely have some strain in my wrist from the weight. Maybe it’s because it’s small enough to use one handed but too heavy to actually be comfortable. Have you tried a pop socket or something similar? (I have not) I’ll definitely be checking the weight of new phones from now on. I may even upgrade if the weight is less on any model. I would like to see something like the SE come out, because I want a phone that can do everything but is compact, but their solution seems to be the Apple Watch so you have a super small screen to accompany your phone instead of a smaller phone screen.
That would hardly be the weight, since it's quite (to very much) less than older phones we all used in the 90s and 00s, and early 10s...
I’ve only had smartphones since 2012, but it’s definitely the heaviest phone I’ve owned and my wrist also occasionally hurts after using it. Older phones probably weren’t used as much as we use then today either.
Smartphones I’ve owned:
HTC One X: 130 g
Galaxy S5: 145g
Samsung Galaxy S7 edge: 157g
iPhone XS: 177 g
I’m happy with the screen size vs the phone size on the XS, but I didn’t realize I wanted something lighter too. This phone is way too heavy. The new iPhone 11 Pro is 188g. Hopefully next time around they make something lighter.
I mean the notch is basically the symptom of having gone into anti-feature territory. Removal of headphone jack, removal of physical home button, removal of TouchID for face recognition that is much slower, removal of 3D Touch... the iPhone 20 at this rate will just be a slab of metal.
>of having gone into anti-feature territory
Headphone jack, sure. But after face ID / full screen, I wouldn't go back to home button and touchID if they'd paid me...
The parent is exaggerating but really, 90% of spotlight on these models is the new camera system but Huawei &co. was offering similar features for a long time.
I have the same feeling. Sure, manufacturers still try to experiment a little with their folding phones etc., but overall the software and hardware changes very little from one generation to the next.
I bought my last phone over 4 years ago and it wasn't new back then. The only reason I'm thinking about buying a new one is the software version. But it probably won't cost more than $200, because that's already enough to get better hardware than I got 4 years ago for double the price, and I don't have an issue with performance.
Needless to say, I don't quite get how flagship phones still sell so well considering you can do basically everything for a small fraction of the cost. Is there really a mobile game or other app out there which requires top specs? Would such a game even sell enough quantities?
The biggest issue I have with buying a new phone is getting fewer features(!!!). I have a OnePlus 5T and that's the last OnePlus to have a headphone jack. There's nothing that I can "upgrade" to without losing that feature(from OnePlus). And the performance of the 5T is more than enough, so there's literally no reason to upgrade.
Why not just use a small, cheap headphone adapter (or several)?
Because my use case for headphones very frequently coincides with the times the phone is charging - I cannot both charge and use the headphones at the same time with an adapter, unless there is some weird USB-C monstrosity that would enable this(without just implementing an internal sound card connected over USB).
Gotcha. Personally I never use wired headphones while charging after reading about a woman who electrocuted herself doing that a few years ago (due to a fake power supply).
That's not really the point, is it?
The point is that the upgraded version ships with less features. I use bluetooth-headphones so I don't care, but I can easily see why this is infuriating to others.
Well now I have to carry this additional junk all time, plus this just create additional waste for no reason at all. as people will break and throw away them eventually
Better selfies or Tik-Tok videos. I presume we, HN crowd aren't big fan of those.
The next evolution will be foldable phones that can unfold into tablets. Smartphones in their current form have essentially peaked, I agree.
I just replaced the battery on my iPhone 6s [purchased in 2017]. Performance is snappy, and the new battery lasts an entire day of use without charging.
The ultrawide lens and night mode are significant in my view, if you don't already have them.
Eye tracking based scrolling would be something that I'd like; for reading long articles/books. Using regular camera is prohibitively power hungry; not sure if there is research for special purpose cameras for this purpose.
To me it seems the hardware innovation shifted from Apple to Google & Asia.
Google is hot with the ML train, they develop and release new state-of-the-art algorithms and improve all aspects of smartphone (videos, pictures, batteries, actions, gestures, keyboards, biometry, security, ...).
On the Asia side, companies are the first to release foldable phones. They are already acquiring user feedbacks and cost insights for the next generation of foldable phone, and Google is a supporting partner, with Android 10 embracing those new phones with new APIs.
I'm looking forward for foldable phones improvements and more Google magic
Regarding Asia, forcing unfinished bleeding edge features into products just to be able to say ”I was first” isn’t innovation, but greediness.
Apple is rarely first to put certain component or piece of technology into their products, but is usually first one to do it properly and create first actually usable product. That’s why pretty much every actual innovation only takes off after Apple has implemented it.
It's been clear for quite some time that terms like "Extreme", "Pro" and "Max" are marketing terms. They are not accurate classifications of how they will be used.
If people feel strongly enough that the name is not accurate, they will have to buy a competing product that fulfills their needs at the price they are willing to pay.
I suppose what would be interesting, but highly proprietary, would be Apple's marketing research information on how the "Pro" marketing term is received by their target consumers.
All that being said, I personally have never bought from Apple, and think the $150 upgrade cost is ridiculous (not to mention the $300 jump from the XR, which is still $300 more than I paid for my Pixel)! So I could say the "Pro" marketing isn't working on me! But overall, they aren't hurting for customers.
"Pro" has been pretty useful, I think, as a marker in Apple's other product lines.
"MacBook Pro" and "iPad Pro" are the ones you buy if you need it for work, because the increased price will pay for itself with increased productivity. But buy the "Air" or basic versions if you are primarily using it for more basic tasks and media consumption.
Not sure the "Pro" distinction will hold up for iPhone, though. I guess it depends if Pro Photographers actually will give up their "Pro" cameras for an iPhone 11 Pro. And I can't think of any other profession where the iPhone Pro will "pay for itself" in productivity increases relative to other iPhones.
I get that's the marketing intent, but the last iteration of MacBook Pros (with the gimmicky taskbar, the fail-prone keyboard, and glued items) has failed on that regard, at least for me. I had to replace the keyboard on mine, and it took Apple 10 days to do it. How is that "pro"?
Twice during this summer, I was not able to share my screen with coworkers using Zoom because my MacBook pro would overheat and throttle the processors. It might be that there's some dust inside the fan (I have a cat) but I am not able to open and clean it up. How is that "Pro"?
Our servers are all linux based and virtualization in mac is spotty (especially if you want to share a Docker-based setup via Zoom on a mildly hot day).
I strongly doubt I will go back to Mac when the time comes for renewing. I really do need to get stuff done, and this machine has gotten in my way too many times.
The finger reader thingie is nice, though.
“Pro” is not just for productivity but comfort of use as well. As an analogy if you sit on a chair 8 hours a day you’ll want a super nice chair, even if it wouldn’t have direct effects on productivity compared to a just decent one.
For most people relying on a smartphone for work, be it 700 or 1000 the device will pay for itself in a few months at most, so I think the price difference won’t matter much. Better battery performance could be significant though.
Honest question, who relies on a smartphone for work? I mean, obviously people rely on a phone for work, people rely on email for work, but what jobs are there where getting the iPhone pro model would make a difference to getting, say, the now much lower priced iPhone 8.. or for that matter a used 2/3 year old flagship android phone?
The BBC make extensive use of the iPhone for news gathering. The photo, video and audio quality are all acceptable for online use (and broadcast use in many cases). LuCi Live is now almost the default option for radio outside broadcasts. The BBC have developed their own app to facilitate direct ingests of media content from iPhones to their asset management system. It's now entirely practical for a broadcast journalist to report on a story with nothing more than their iPhone.
I'm not sure how meaningful the "Pro" suffix really is, but the iPhone has undoubtedly become a piece of professional equipment in the media industry.
Very interesting, I knew there would be job categories where it would be a completely obvious tool and you'd want every aspect of it to be the best possible and of course journalism is one.
Dictaphone, camera, editing and publishing, phone, notepad, email... arbitrary other software around all of these, all in your pocket. Makes total sense.
Not even exclusively for work. If I'm away from my desk for any reason, be it in my vehicle, in the server room, at a friend's place, and I need to urgently know something I always reach for my phone. My phone has my passwords and credit card numbers. My phone gets me connected to all my friends, near and far, for whatever reason. I have access to my email and most critical documents. I use the cameras and microphone to document my life, my projects, and special moments to me. And let's not be glib about it, it's a great tool for passing time between when I'm doing useful and fun things. I can browse Reddit while waiting for my wife to get her hair done.
I find it odd how people will happily pull their wallets out for a PC they will spend a ton of time on, but then balk at the idea of spending half that on a device that lives in your pocket and can help you do practically anything that comes to mind, even if all that comes to mind is entertain you for a few moments. Is it just down to the physical size of the device?
I agree with you, that as one of your most used electronics, if youre constantly using it, that the little features add up at times when youre not expecting it.
But none of what you described explains why you would need a Pro instead of the standard. Its nice to have, but the base model isnt nerfed to a point that makes it unusable.
Frankly when it comes to phones at least (and often times any electronics) I just get the most powerful option available. Do I need it? Probably not. But in my experience:
1) They age better, and oftentimes are more not just useable, but actually a joy yo use, for a longer time
2) The price difference just isn't that much to justify taking a lower power device. Sure, the iPhone 11 would probably be just fine compared to an iPhone 11 Pro. But when you're talking about phones in that price caliber, honestly what's an extra $200? And I've never had a phone in my hand wishing it was less capable, so why chance wanting to replace it earlier?
Like I said, I bought the X at launch and that was to replace, in turn, a 6 Plus which was still very usable so I'm far from an every year upgrader, and I think that has to do with the fact that I always get the biggest and best, and then just age out a few cycles instead of continuously upgrading.
This strategy has served me well. My cycle is 4 years though.
2010 most powerful blackberry -> 2014 iPhone 5s -> 2018 iPhone X
Yep. I wouldn't even say I necessarily have a cycle, I just upgrade when I wanted to. I passed on the 7 and 8 because they didn't have anything overly compelling. The X had FaceID, more gesture control which I like, and the better camera so I jumped on that one. Now I'm debating the 11 Pro just because that new camera also has my interest, and I really like the Midnight Green color, but I'm not sold just yet. I think I'll wait and see how long it takes Apple to start shifting units before I decide for sure.
Almost the same experience here. My old 6 has now gone to our son who continues to get tons of use out of it - all the iPhones in our family end up being given to kids for their phones when we upgrade. Usually the batteries are starting to degrade but the phones themselves? They last for years, and years, and years. iPhones are great
I think because phones are largely still changed on a 2 year cycle in sync with contracts.
I’ve been handing down my iPhones since day one. All of them have got 6 years minimum use.
I mean, my gaming PC has roughly the same cycle, though I suppose that's only for given parts, not the entire thing each time.
I dunno, for all the uses and advantages my phone gives me, I'm happy to pay. My last one was an X and it's served me extremely well since I bought it at launch. I passed on the XS, but the 11 is tempting.
Most people buy cheap PC's, too.
Do “most people” even buy PCs, nowadays? I think most do, but also think it won’t take a decade for that to change.
You may “need” one when you’re at school or university, but i would think many people can easily do without a PC, after that.
Photographers. Many will choose a smartphone that would work as a "b" camera. Is it really that difficult for you to come up with other examples?
Here is one: I'm a botanist. I take a lot of pictures of herbarium specimens (pressed plant specimens in natural history museums) to make morphological measurements. I have a Sony A7RM3 that is a MUCH higher resolution, better quality camera, but it's a lot bigger, requires more setup time, etc. With an iPhone, the pictures I take are automatically uploaded into Apple's cloud storage and available on my laptop. It's a very nice, simple, relatively seamless system.
I shot most of a City Council campaign this summer with just an iPhone. Took a DSLR to like two big events because I needed telephoto, but all our other official photos and social media stuff was phones.
If I'm shooting something for a billboard, yeah, I'll go get out a real camera. Almost anything smaller than that can absolutely be done on almost any modern flagship phone.
I see where you’re coming from, but it also feels like asking ‘why do you want to work in a nice place ? what difference is it really making that your desk has smooth angles and is made of sturdy materials instead of a particle plank with feets we’d buy at IKEA ?’
People can be productive and do fantastic work on any working material. But why have it worse when you’ll be using the device day in day out and stare at it for years ?
I don’t think we are arguing the Pro is nicer, right ?
Well sure, but the particle board thing tcompares to getting a cheap Android budget model though. Not last year's flagship at 40% of the cost. (Well, last year's iPhone hasn't dropped quite that much, but in the Android world they often do with some smart shopping.)
> I don’t think we are arguing the Pro is nicer, right ?
I didn't watch the entire presentation, but didn't seem very different from current high end phones, except for the camera.
No, I definitely agree, in fact I was going to give that very caveat ('aside from the pro model just being nicer to use if you use a phone all the time at work') but didn't want to presume your point too much. Also I was genuinely interested, maybe there are jobs like this and I'm just not aware of them :-)
Why the weird extremes? Did the Iphone 8 or X or a android flagship from 2017 stop being nice? Is that your standard for an "IKEA particle plank"?
Working at a "nice place" is what you care about when you've already decided that everything else about the job is going to suck. When the rest of your working conditions are decent don't care what your desk is like.
I decided long ago that I won’t work for places that can’t be bothered having decent offices, whatever they do, whatever they pay *
I don’t mean candy bowls or flashy sofas, but well lit, well ventilated, with decent toilets, noise isolation and living space between desks, and ergonomic chairs (at least adjustable in height and depth/inclination)
Cheaping out on work environment is the first sign of misplaced priorities IMO. Especially when it’s so easy to get penalties from work inspection.
* I’ll settle for a million dollar a year, I confess
Having ergonomic equipment is pretty important IMO regardless of the job.
There's a big difference between decent, ergononic equipment and high luxury though. The most expensive flagship phones compare to high luxury, not basic, functional, ergononic environments.
Right but we're talking about SV jobs, which do suck and only get employees for the pay and perks.
I had been a Windows phone user for 3 years from 2009 to 2012 (HTC HD7, Nokia Lumia 800 and 920). Then switched to android for 7 years. Had a OnePlus One, <one more android here>, then a Google Nexus 6p, a Motorola ( solely for a 5000mAh battery as I was fed up with the nexus battery). Finally got an iPhone XS Max this year and I don’t think I am going to switch. My needs are to have a reliable phone with good battery life to last a day and that will run for 4+ years and get full security upgrades (else I don’t get work email on my phone). I think if I get 5 years out of it, the iPhone even with its 1100$ price tag will be cheaper in the long run.
A can see for some people where images are an important aspect, but not central to the work, the new cameras might come in handy - off the top of my head ...
I’m estate agent and I want to be able to photograph exteriors and interiors.
I’m a garden designer, I like to photograph my clients gardens for a portfolio.
I run a small bar, that has live music sometimes- I like to photograph and video the bands for my website.
I'm a startup founder and I use my phone more than anything else to demo my company's technology. But any of the modern phones is fine for this (I've been rolling with a 7 Plus since it came out), and frankly I prefer the LCD screens to the new OLEDs because of ghosting/lag issues.
There may be other folks out there who want the fastest phone for the purposes of demoing technology. For me, I mostly just don't want to look like I'm a luddite (although I've seen a surprising number of founders/CEOs who rock the SE).
I'm with you here.
Got a SE few years ago and it's doing great. Albeit I don't use it as much as I use my Mac, but it does the job.
1. No Camera bump (c'mon, this is simple)
2. Good photos (I'm not trying to replicate Mona Lisa, I just need an ok camera that captures day-to-day things)
3. Small, portable
On OLED screens, the ROG "gaming" phone has an impressive 90hz. It's a little cheaper than most flagships too.
"I have to waste money on conspicuously consuming the most expensive phone on the market or else my partners won't think my company is a legitimate business" is a great ilustration of how SV is in a bubble of phony valuation for phony products.
> conspicuously consuming the most expensive phone on the market
This is an iPhone 7+ we’re talking about... Maybe not the best springboard for your complaint.
Physicians - always on the go, need access to calendar, reference apps, communication (messages, email)... to me, having a fast phone with a big screen is a no-brainer.
Don't all of these work equally well on the non-Pro version?
The Pro is advertised as having significantly better battery life. If he is indeed always on the go then that will be a big plus.
One thing the top end iPhone has is a better camera, and for tangentially-professional photographers, this makes a difference. ("Tangentially" meaning professionals that need photos, eg insurance claims adjuster, but that's it's not a primary focus of their job so an SLR doesn't make sense, eg wedding photographer.)
I'm a hobbyist/pseudo-pro(shot a couple of weddings) photographer that used to carry around SLRs, but have found the iPhone camera good enough to use for daily photography, so the best photography in a phone is a huge plus for myself as I can appreciate the photography enhancements.
Obviously for heavy lifting, I still would prefer an SLR with an assortment of lens options and such though.
Depends if you mean work on your phone, or on your phone at work.
Instagram influencers of course.
It's entirely the camera + case material that differentiates pro from non.
Agreed on the comfort aspect. I splurged and got the iPhone X a few years back, and in daily use it still feels snappier than even the most recent flagship Samsung phones.
I don't think any professional photographers will give up their DSLRs or Mirrorless/System Cameras in favor of an image sensor smaller than their fingernails.
The Pro iPhones are definitely for 'prosumers' rather than actual professionals. You know, the type that has a semi-professional DSLR, but just uses it to take better pictures than anyone else when they're at a party or going about the city.
However, with the growth of more organic looking content on social media, there are a lot of other types of "pros" using iPhones daily for commercial content creation.
Where I work, for example, the social media team are looking to buy an iPhone for IG Story content, as well as internal videos.
Whilst it obviously won't replace a pro photographer's equipment for static, paid shoots, it will be used often in a "pro" setting.
It could have some niche applications in low-budget films / advertisement, as well as in the "meme" sphere.
Yes, agreed there, but in any sort of high budget capacity, I'd rather get an actual camera or film equipment.
I think apple "Pro" has been equivalent to "Prosumer" for years now.
More like "Prosumer" digital cameras, without removable lenses.
Don't know if the new mac pro will shake that up.
Pro photographers that make bank by being instagram influencers will be all over the iPhone Pro. This will completely upend the vlogging industry too.
I vlog with a DSLR and even with an iPhone X most people can’t tell when I use footage from that (running with a dslr is hard, for example). iPhone Pro likely makes better video than my T6i Rebel in many situations. Depth of field is usually where DSLRs shine
Why? Why wouldn't anyone with more than a passing interest in photography buy a dedicated camera for much less money that will work much better?
Compared to most new mirrorless or DSLR cameras, an iPhone is cheaper. A mirrorless or DSLR camera may have better sensor and optics (if you buy the right glass) BUT the computational capabilities of the phone far outstrip the computational capabilities of the camera.
I find that modern phones are better than traditional cameras a) by nailing exposure more consistently in tricky lighting conditions, b) having a far better display for proofing your shots, and c) can use computational photography tricks to create great HDR photos.
Kinda makes you wonder when somebody will release a DLSR body with minimal controls, no screen, and an iPhone mount.
you mean like the QX1?
Sigma cameras are getting close to that form factor. 
It would need to mount pretty close to the CPU to take advantage of all the DSP hardware in the phone ...
Built in WiFi hotspot, an app on the phone...
Accessibility and ease of workflow. I've had (and have) some nice cameras, but the phone is almost always with me and almost always more convenient to get at and use. The phone can also own much more of the lifecycle of the image than a stand alone camera. Viewing, editing, backing up, and sharing images are all much easier on a phone than at least the stand alone cameras I've used.
Where the standalone cameras are useful are where you need a capability that you just can't get in a phone. (And that's a set of capabilities that's been greatly diminished over the years, although it will never fully go away.)
You don't need the best gear for (that kind of) Instagram, an iPhone that takes fantastic photos _and_ lets you edit and post in a frictionless manner is probably a more productive platform.
People don't _look at_ Instagram posts in the same way they might a fine art photograph. It's a double tap while scrolling through hundreds of posts.
I say this as an avid amateur wildlife photographer who posts on Instagram and gets a handful of likes while friends get hundreds or thousands for an out-of-focus image of a milkshake and bagel.
The word that fits here is "lifestyle."
The iPhone is a lifestyle product. It does a lot of things, but it does some of them quite poorly.
The new camera is better than it used to be, but it's still a long way of short of the quality you'd expect from a high-end professional photo studio camera.
As a lifestyle product, the important factor is the narrative that buying it will put you within reach of that professional creative lifestyle.
In a sense it will, if your definition is limited to lifestyle social sites like IG and FB.
But in a more honest and realistic sense it won't, because it lacks the quality and the flexibility of real professional equipment. A good DSLR + glass will still kill it, and medium format - which is what the most successful full-time studio pros are likely to use - will absolutely destroy it.
There are still situations where that high end is needed. Fashion, ads, and high-end portraiture and photojournalism all rely on it. I don't think studio photographers working in those fields are going to be moving to an iPhone any time soon.
> In a sense it will, if your definition is limited to lifestyle social sites like IG and FB.
That's precisely what I meant. It's what most people do most of the time.
Taking a shot of my breakfast smoothie with my 150mp Phase One, editing on a calibrated workstation and exporting to have it resized to 2mp for display on mobile phones is beyond pointless.
My point was mostly that the definition of “pro photographer” is much wider these days than many people realize. For many values of “pro” an iPhone Pro is going to be absolutely fantastic and a better fit than higher-end pro.
True, but even then, your best camera is the one you have with you. I have a nice Canon DSLR setup, but appreciate good camera quality from my phone, because even if I don't have my camera with me, I almost always have my phone.
How does that apply to 'pro photographers who make bank off of instagram'?
It's not less money, though. I can buy a telephoto, wide angle, and super wide lens and not have any money left over if my budget is the cost of an iPhone. The point isn't that the phone can replace those things in every situation it's that it's so good that it's more than good enough to replace those things for a significant percentage of the times I need them.
Case in point, I have an iPhone X and a DSLR with all of the above lenses and the camera kit + lenses were more expensive than the new iPhone and I probably would use them less.
Because you iphone is accessible on seconds notice anytime anywhere. You have to plan to bring a DLSR with you.
How would this 'revolutionize vlogging' for 'pro influencers who make bank off of instagram'?
Because why lug around all your serious gear all the time to make videos people watch on their phone when they’re bored on the crapper? Or for insta stories?
But the part it’s really going to revolutionize is the baseline level of expected image quality. Just like Casey Neistat forced everyone to start using DSLRs for vlogging with his famed 2 or 3 year experiment.
> Because you iphone is accessible on seconds notice anytime anywhere.
Not if I'm travelling internationally, as then I'm concerned about the implications of having border officials demand access to my phone. Or if I'm participating in various watersports/snowsports/backcountry activities where a phone is problematically fragile and difficult to keep charged.
In either of those scenarios (which account for the majority of pictures I take) I'm more likely to have a camera accessible than a phone.
Okay, so you are an edge case... what's your point?
> Not sure the "Pro" distinction will hold up for iPhone, though
It does, you need to be able to charge its cost as a business expense to be able to afford it. The "Pro" signals to the tax auditors that Apple approves of this :-)
> any other profession where the iPhone Pro will "pay for itself"
Self-styled "influencers". They'll be all in.
>It's been clear for quite some time that terms like "Extreme", "Pro" and "Max" are marketing terms.
A great example of this is the "PS4 Pro"
Listen pal, my eSports Twitch career won't go anywhere with just the base model /sarcasm
Honestly I never really understood the need to chase the newest flagship given the premium price. I probably upgrade about once a year to 18 months, and purchasing the prior model flagship saves me about 60% to 70%. I upgraded to the pixel 2xl shortly after the 3 came out for about $260. Even being able to afford it I just feel I'm getting ripped off at $1000.
You then pay somewhere around 175 to 260 usd per year for your phone. The newest iPhones are about $1000. From my experience, and from others, they last a very long time, and a 4 year cycle can be expected, as well as passing the phones on to their kids and so on. There is also the possibility to sell it used down the line, and the iPhones keep their value much better than any Android phone.
Thus the "expensive" iPhones are $250 or less per year. And they are, in my opinion, usually better than the Android equivalent.
You might say; "but what if I have the same upgrade cycle with iPhones". Well, then you can have a look at what a used version of the last gen iPhone costs. Where I live; it is something like $100-200 less than what it was new. That means; some people are having the newest version of the iPhone for only $100-200 / year. That is, at least, roughly the same price as your are getting (or better, depending on resale value of the specific Android phone), but with the newest version of a more premium product.
In other words. You might be getting ripped off at $260. It all comes down to money over time, not amount at a defined moment, unless the amount is prohibitive.
Mostly sound logic and I switched to the iPhone 5 years back after a similar calculation. Only, the 6s started becoming wonky in 3 years and I most definitely missed _some_ Android features.
When it was time to upgrade, it apparently also became time for apple to jack up the price of their flagship to a thousand bucks and I just vehemently avoided that out of principle.
Looking at alternatives,the Galaxy seemed like a reasonably similar premium (not polished software fosho) phone, but sticker price was similar to iPhones. However thos things go on sale a lot. Nabbed a S9 few months after release for 500 and looks like it'll last me three years at least. Super happy with the hardware (and software actually) as well.
The only "flaw" in your logic above is that in principle an iPhone probably can last 4 years but that's not constant - models from them are sometimes just not as reliable (we talking 4 year reliability vs 3) and it's not just a thousand dollars, it's thousand and tax and bells and whistles (which for apple is always more). Plus you now have a premium phone that you better don't break or scratch (if you want to sell) or you're out a very large number of Benjamins.
That is true, but then again, you can probably repair it 3 years down the line. Repairing a 3-year old Android is usually not as easy.
Don't get me wrong, I am writing this on a Sony Android phone, which I expect to get 0 dollars for if I try to sell it. But from an economic perspective I don't think there is a clear advantage to Android devices.
Looking on ebay, you can get a new or lightly used iPhone XS 64GB (the only option that was as little as $999) for around $700. So if you bought it a year ago, your annual cost after selling it is about $300. The Pixel 2 XL goes for about $200 on ebay. Looks like it costs as much as $200 per year more to have the flagship iPhone new than it does to have a year old flagship Pixel.
In your opinion, the iPhone is better, so it's OK that you're spending more, but it's weird to say someone's getting ripped off by buying an excellent one year old phone for much, much less.
The money over time argument rarely works out as better for a more expensive item. Anecdotally, the people I know that buy a brand new flagship do not wait four years between phones. The ones that are OK with a one year old flagship are also OK with a three year old one. And even if they upgrade more often, it's just so much less expensive (over time.)
If it was a need they would probably not be able to charge so much.
Real estate agents, industrial photographers, people who make money affiliate marketing, maintaining a (whatever) review channel on YouTube, journalists, heck even sales or running a small business, lots of professional use cases. The difference between good and great is the little things.
The photos I see on real estate listings are horrendously compressed and have a potato-like quality. I have no idea if they were taken 15 years ago on a $10 point and shoot or on a brand new professional DSLR. Only thing you can sometimes tell is that they used a wide-angle lens.
In my experience (Sydney, Australia) they tend to get professionals to shoot with a quality DSLR, then they get pimple-faced Photoshop jockeys to flatten the dynamics and punch in a fake blue sky.
This new extra-wide camera is interesting as it's fairly rare for a consumer-targeted camera to exceed a 24mm (FFE) focal length. Even in expensive professional lenses, getting to 13mm (FFE) is fairly unusual. Most ultra-wide glass stops at 16mm.
Or you know... bring a camera and be professional.
The idea that apple needs an extra $300 dollars to fit that into my phone, maybe i'll just get two pixel 3s. Or a nice point and shoot.
The 'bare minimum' that the consumer will accept vs 'the average feature set expected' vs 'lets sprinkle in some unicorn dust and charge people up the wazoo' model is getting a little old. Its why I have iPhone 6s, 7s, still in the fleet of devices I support. The consumer and businesses are simply tired of this bs.
Whilst I agree with your premise, the problem is that they explicitly made the distinction that this was for professionals. I can't remember the precise verbiage but when Cook introduced it he said that this was by and for professionals.
Well they specifically said it’s Pro users... and for everyone else who wants the best of what Apple has to offer. They could certainly remove the 64gb entry option and thus increase the base price but then everyone who only needs 64gb is paying more for a feature they don’t need or want. Rather Apple usually waits until part prices make it so they can both reduce the price and this remove the previous entry model which one can assume will happen in a few years.
Instgram influencers are professionals in their particular niche.
> It's been clear for quite some time that terms like "Extreme", "Pro" and "Max" are marketing terms. They are not accurate classifications of how they will be used.
The new iPhone Pros appear to mark a shift; it's the same shift the Mac Pro announcement did in June, and was also a source of contention on Hacker News.
Pro at this point is just key for "the expensier/fancier one".
It's hard to name the more expensive version to convey it's better without in turn suggesting the cheaper one is shittier.
"Pro" lets you do that by suggesting that it's for a different audience, allowing consumers of the budget model to save face so to speak (I don't need it because I'm not a professional).
"Pro" probably works great to bring in people trying to elevate their social media quality. It doesn't necessarily mean (in Apple's marketing terminology) actual, legitimate professional industry anymore.
I'd imagine people getting into vlogging and such, or even people who just want to be "that cool and popular" (especially younger people) that would buy in to the "Pro" moniker.
> It doesn't necessarily mean (in Apple's marketing terminology) actual, legitimate professional industry
I made the point elsewhere, but I think that ignores "professionals in the workplace doing this alongside other things". These can easily be "pro" for content creation teams, like editorial staff for capturing Stories from events and the like.
Just because they're not replacements for high-end commercial photography equipment doesn't mean they're not being used as intended by professionals.
Completely agree that their terminology might be skewing, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of their use in a professional context, even if the users aren't "photography professionals" themselves.
I think "Pro" is just admitting that they're running into two tiers now. They released the 8 and the X together, they released the XR and XS together. The iphone has diverged into two products and hopefully they've picked a consistent name to differentiate them - because the difference between XR and XS isn't obvious at all.
Exactly. It's the same as with iPad and Mac. The name "pro" is just a throw-back to an earlier Apple, and it works because customers already understand the term. It doesn't matter if it is for real professionals or not.
“XS” seemed to me like a blunder of a name. First off, I don’t know anyone who calls the X iPhones “ten” - they call them “x”. And so XS looks and sounds like “extra small.”
Without knowing anything about the X phones, I at first assumed that XR was the top of the line X phone. XR just... sounds like a better phone.
I think they resolved this with the 11 line.
To me I couldn't help but read it as "excess", as in this phone is excessive.
> All that being said, I personally have never bought from Apple, and think the $150 upgrade cost is ridiculous (not to mention the $300 jump from the XR, which is still $300 more than I paid for my Pixel)! So I could say the "Pro" marketing isn't working on me! But overall, they aren't hurting for customers.
I love it when people complain about the prices Apple charge, especially given the experiences I've had with customer service at Apple, so... story time!
I had an iPhone 5 when it first came out. At the time I was a heavy motorbike rider to and from work. One day when I was riding home it rained heavily (this was in England, so yeah...) and my pocket had been left open. When I got home my iPhone was completely submerged in water for at least 20 minutes.
I took it to Apple the next day and they replaced it for free. Try that with your Pixel... oh that's right, you don't have any stores to take it into world wide. Shame.
Fast forward to only two years ago...
I was in Vienna for Christmas a few years back. We'd gone through Italy to get there. During my time in Italy I noticed my iPhone 6S' battery was dropping quickly. I couldn't work out why. By the time we got to Vienna it would drop by 20% every 15-20 minutes. I found a premium reseller who took it in and replaced the battery in 45 minutes for free. I bought the phone in Australia.
Try that with your Pixel... oh that's right, you have to post your phone to the manufacturer and wait for them to fix it or replace it, a process I know to take weeks. Shame. But you saved $300 though!
I personally don't think it's worth counting the pennies in that manner given the services you're getting outside of the hardware. It's not much of a price hike at all, in the grand scheme of things.
So, you have very expensive insurance?
As it turns out, I've never destroyed any of my own phones, so I saved $300 every two years since I started buying smart phones 12 years ago. So $1800. If my phone gets submerged and Google won't replace it, I guess I'll have to buy another phone with my $1800 budget!
Also, when I got my Pixel 3, the back had some waves in the paint. It literally did not matter at all, because I put a case on it, and it couldn't affect functionality at all, but I told them I wasn't happy, and they shipped a new one that did not have the cosmetic imperfections. Try that with your iPhone! Oh yeah, it would probably work.
shrug This isn't a competition. Just be smart with your money (or do with your money as you choose, whether someone else thinks it smart or not!)
> So, you have very expensive insurance?
Expensive compared to what, exactly? Car insurance, which doesn't have a world wide chain of stores you can walk into when your car is smashed up? House insurance, which also does not afford you the luxury of world wide stores with commission free staff to assist you when your house burns down?
Most "insurance", if you want to call it that, doesn't offer you the same level of experience, so in what way is it expensive?
My house insurance doesn't teach me how a boiler works so I can use it correctly, or my dish washer, TV, or anything else about the property I own. Apple DO run classes for learning to do just about anything on your iPhone, iPad, Mac, etc. I'd have to only attend one, perhaps two, of those classes for the staff member's time to be worth more than what I paid for my "insurance".
So what are you comparing it to that makes it expensive?
> As it turns out, I've never destroyed any of my own phones
Which of course means no else does, neither.
> shrug This isn't a competition.
Then why did you argue price as a competitive factor in your purchasing decision? That's literally a competition.
It's expensive to pay nearly double for a phone just because they have physical stores where you've gotten phones that you've destroyed replaced for free.
It's expensive to pay nearly double for a phone because you feel you need classes to learn how to use it.
I'm saying it is perfectly fine if you want to spend more money for the Apple experience. And obviously you are fine with that, too. I prefer to use my money on other things. It's not a competition between rabid fans. It's a market for selling chunks of hardware. So yes, they are competing for our dollars. I prefer to maintain my decision-making over where those dollars go. Having special in-store luxury experiences is not why I buy a phone that takes pictures and does other things nicely, too. But it's fine if you spend that money.
Insurance is betting you're going to have something bad happen. Expensive insurance is when the ones calculating the insurance make a bunch of money off you because you pay a lot more than you get out of it. Paying a ton for a low deductible but never making a claim. If you personally don't destroy phones, paying a lot for insurance on them doesn't make sense. I never said no one else should do so, or that no one else destroys phones. Obviously you do. But still not enough to make up for the price premium.
Overall it's not a solid argument for the phone, but you have your reasons for buying it. It just does nothing to discount my reasons for saving my money and buying a different phone.
> It's expensive to pay nearly double for a phone
Now you're just being dishonest. You know right well that a flag ship Android is near the same price.
I'm not being dishonest. I'm basing it on availability. The Pixel 3 I own was purchased from Google Fi for $400. The price right now is $500. Technically the Pixel 3 XL ($600) is the flagship just like the iPhone XS Max / iPhone 11 Max are the flagship. (Looks like you can't buy the XS Max direct any more, so I can't find current pricing.) The iPhone 11 Max starts at $1100. That seems like "nearly double" to me.
>a premium reseller replaced the battery in 45 minutes for free. I bought the phone in Australia. Try that with your Pixel...
Actually on a (Samsung) Galaxy 5 you could've just popped open the back of the phone and replaced the battery yourself in a few seconds.
At a cost to you.
Did you pay for Applecare?
Most people do not get free replacements or repairs for their iPhones.
So are you saying you got a new phone and battery for free?
I somehow managed to get an almost invisible crack on the inside of the Gorilla glass a few years ago via a drop. Took it into an Apple Store for a screen replacement; they gave me a fresh out of the box phone for free (partially because they'd never seen that failure mode before, partially because they were busy and my slot got delayed 45 minutes.)
(Admittedly, the bloke next to me with the iPhone 4 arguing that the back glass had shattered "all on its own; I didn't drop it, honestly!" probably wasn't going to get a new phone for free...)
I am saying that, because it happened. I'm OK with you not believing me, because it'll still be the truth at the end of the day.
I suppose they could protest a 64GB pro version or they could buy a bigger one. I guess we all pick our battles.
If you need a "pro" phone but can't afford the iPhone, you could always get a UMIDIGI A3 Pro, or an ASUS ZenFone Max Pro M2, which are quite a bit cheaper.
Naturally it's just a marketing term.
“Pro” means more powerful. That doesn’t mean that you buy it if you need it work work. I know Fellows making $1m/year who have a MacBook Air because they prefer the low weight when they’re doing emails etc, and code from a desktop workstation.
These sorts of threads appear for every announcement. I chuckled seeing another user claim that it wasn't exciting because they didn't have something like Animojis to announce, that feature being a desperate "please try to buy this phone we're trying to justify this awkward face unlock thing".
It's an incremental update that also brings huge new features to the "low priced" version. And it'll do great.
Yep, cell phones have reached peak feature-dom and this iPhone X style design is excellent. We don't need new fancy bells attached to it just for the sake of it. Just make it incrementally better and faster, without messing up what was good about it previously.
I agree the product is in polishing stage, improving existing ideas and features rather than introducing new ones.
The focus internally is on the next leap forward, presumably an AR device.
If you go back and look at the iPod release history  between 2005 and 2007, (first iPhone released June '07) you can see a similar incremental improvements, specifically in software enhancements, improved form factor and longer battery life.
I believe the difference between then and now is that the Watch and iPhone are production testing grounds for hardware that will be used in an AR product. In this way the new product is being developed in the open.
Just for the sake of it, no. For the sake of Apple continuing to have some differentiating feature to get people to line up to purchase in a way that keeps the iPhone trendy, yes. Otherwise it's just like any of the other 5000 smartphone models coming out each year, and then Apple's stock goes down.
Lots of people disappointed in the new iPhone. The reason I see is simple; Apple has long been outsourced a large fraction of its hardware innovation capabilities to other companies rather than having a full vertical ownership of the production line, unlike its competitors (Samsung, Huawei, etc).
This works very well when most of the required technologies are already there for bringing their idea to the reality so Apple doesn't have to push the state of the art for the manufacturing technologies. Multi-touch, Retina Display, Apple designed SoC were all good examples where this strategy worked out very well.
The trouble is that now most of the low hanging fruits are gone and the rest of innovation opportunities lie within the manufacturer side and require non-trivial investments. For instance, getting rid of notch requires camera under screen technology. This is being developed by Samsung, their competitor. The same thing applies to fingerprint sensor under screen. While all the competitors are shipping 5G in their flagships, iPhone 11 couldn't ship 5G due to their hard dependency on Qualcomm. In short, the current landscape doesn't allow Apple to keep itself on the bleeding edge in the smartphone business.
I'm curious about how Apple will address this problem. Disappointingly, I haven't seen any positive signal to indicate that Apple has a good plan to address this issue. It first tried a high-price, even-more-premium strategy and this turned out to be a disastrous one. Apple now tries to expand into the services business and chooses to be a competitor to its own ecosystem by exercising its dominant position. I'm pretty sure that this plan will work very well, maybe too well sufficient to de-prioritize the iPhone business just enough to keep its marketshare around 3~40% and make no more commitments. I hope I'm wrong.
There will always be lots of people disappointed in the iPhone. We will only know the magnitude of disappointment once financials are posted. Speaking of which, R&D spend shows they are making non-trivial investments. Apple secrecy is what keeps you and I seeing the R&D results before they are ready. "Signals" is not something Apple likes to give, which is probably why you aren't seeing any. I would argue that hardware+software integration is more important than 5G, underscreen fingerprint, or notchless design combined. Apple is the leader in deep integration across hardware and software. Services is just an extension of having a default out of the box experience for the most important experiences on an iPhone. Nothing new here. First it was "notes", "calculator", "stocks", etc. Now they are moving up the services stack to movies, gaming, etc. Next it will be Uber / delivery via Project Titan.
> Speaking of which, R&D spend shows they are making non-trivial investments.
Unfortunately, Apple's R&D spend won't likely enable what they want to do on their phone. A large number of sources consistently suggests that Apple is experimenting various options to get rid of notch, but all those options depends on display manufacturers.
> "Signals" is not something Apple likes to give, which is probably why you aren't seeing any.
Apple definitely wants to prove their iPhone business has more potential to grow; why would they hide the growth potential of the largest business to their investors? The truth is that it doesn't see more potentials on its phone business and this is why Apple is aggressively investing into services business.
> I would argue that hardware+software integration is more important than 5G, underscreen fingerprint, or notchless design combined.
I wouldn't argue on a subjective issue, but just note that iPhone used to have the best hardware, software and their integration during Steve's era, which is not true anymore for hardware and the gap is increasing. As a 10 year iPhone user, this is very disappointing.
I don't think it is so subjective. Look at the customer satisfaction scores. You could certainly correlate those with measurable aspects of the user experience (software crashes, support handling, camera speed, render jank, etc). A lack of good hw/sw integration will show up.
As for not having the best hardware, what can you see about the A* series chips? They are industry leading year after year. Why? Apple took development in house . Apple is now taking modem  and display technology  in house. They are doing all the right things.
Apple's DNA from the get go is being an integrator.
Wozniak knows how to put it together more efficiently and Jobs scoured catalogs to get the best deals and knew where to source in the valley.
The secret sauce is just the Apple way of putting it together and serving it to you.
The clone wars era taught them to stop doing that but those days have been so far spread to now that this we're finding ourselves repeating similar mistakes.
Additionally there was also the Apple era of just rebranding shit for the sake of establishing halos and ecosystems. There were a period of Apple branded Sony monitors and Apple branded printers. They opted out of that and went with the retail option these days. At least they learned from that.
But yes, Apple got bigger. What once was getting chips from Sunnyvale to Cupertino is now getting chips from Shenzhen to Cupertino. And the milestone we've hit now is Apple today announcing a new camera with phone communication abilities.
I'm thoroughly confused by your comment. Was not Apple's FaceID a full year, if not more, ahead of the competition? Sure they didn't sit in cupertino, stitching together components, but they designed an integration of existing components in a way that saved space and made them work in concert in a way no other competitor had. I don't think they're in as much trouble as you make out
Yes, FaceID is another good example of technology that could be brought to the reality without long-term strategical commitments from other big (possibly competing) companies. I'm not saying that Apple is losing its edge on product technology "design". Apple will still remain to be the best here at least for several more years. But it's also still true that the technological bar for manufacturing components is rapidly going up and Apple doesn't have much controls in this area.
Apple bought the company that made sensors for it.
>Apple has long been outsourced a large fraction of its hardware innovation capabilities to other companies rather than having a full vertical ownership of the production line, unlike its competitors (Samsung, Huawei, etc).
Apart from Samsung which does Full vertical ownership, there isn't any other company which does that. And Huawei uses Foxconn as well, OLED from BOE, NAND and DRAM from Multiple Sources etc. There is nothing from Huawei that shows Full Vertical Ownership.
>While all the competitors are shipping 5G in their flagships, iPhone 11 couldn't ship 5G due to their hard dependency on Qualcomm. In short, the current landscape doesn't allow Apple to keep itself on the bleeding edge in the smartphone business.
Apple wasn't the first with 4G, but they drove 4G adoption. And 5G isn't even ready, all current 5G solution on the market are big, bulky and power hungry. But it is great people are driven into these marketing hype, only by doing so they could recoup some of their R&D investment. For Apple, they will move to 5G when it is ready.
Yes it didn't allow Apple to be on the bleeding Edge of Foldable Screen. Look at what happen to Samsung. Bleeding Edge means nothing. Not everything has a first mover advantage. Innovation doesn't just requires Bleeding edge, that is Invention. Innovation requires Invention that brings Value to masses, and for that to happen, pricing is often an obstacle.
My observation is Apple waits for someone else to make the hardware innovation (e.g., camera under screen being the next example of this), then they do a more polished version of that.
You think that Apple isn't working on putting the camera array required for FaceId under the screen? Of course they are. The problem is that it's the whole sensor array that has to go under the screen. Is that workable? Possibly, but I'm not a hardware engineer.
Apple hasn't really been on the bleeding edge for a while now. Android phones had bigger screens, wireless charging, quick charging, NFC payment years before the iPhone had those features.
Apple strengths are in integration, design and marketing. Like mentioned, other phones had NFC payments way before the iPhone, but I'd say mobile phone payment really took off when Apple Pay came out. That's the power of marketing and influence at work.
Well on the hand other the Apple FaceID was in fact on the bleeding edge. Apple introduced it two years ago and we're only going to see it on the Pixel later this year. And for SoC performance I don't think any Android phone can surpass Apple's chips from last year. Apple really is on the bleeding edge for some things. You can't expect them to be on the bleeding edge for everything.
Apple Engineers didn't invent it, it was a 3rd party technology purchase.
> Apple strengths are in integration, design and marketing.
I would place unmatched iOS security first, strong privacy stance second, well before marketing.
I don't think that's true at all. Apple is the only player that has ownership of the most important parts of software, hardware and services. That's why their products are better than their competitors.
Camera under the screen etc. are gimmicks that don't provide real value to customers. On the other hand, having the most performant SoC combined with the most performant software does provide real value.
This is a surprisingly thought-provoking comment and the theory checks out.
Until Apple are able to break out of this mould I feel they'll be stuck at this combination of
a) uninteresting yearly iterations
b) ever increasing base phone prices for little end user gain
I don't thinkt hey're able to paint themselves out of this corner on the smartphone front.
They have iOS as a decent but certainly not impregnable moat for iPhone. Some brand new groundbreaking product will be needed very soon to prevent the Apple stock price from steadily declining. (It already starting plateauing 15 months ago.)
Did the base phone price increase this year? I thought it stayed the same and improved some of the materials used in regards to toxicity and sourcing concerns.
They even dropped the iPhone 11 "midrange" model down $50 compared to the XR release price from last year.
Does everyone here also drive a base model Honda Civic because “car hardware is done”? This is a luxury product and people upgrade because it’s fun and feels great to have the fastest phone and fanciest camera. It’s not that big a deal, and it’s definitely not a ripoff.
Personally I drive the top-spec Civic of 15 years ago. I would never own a current luxury item because I don't think it's worth spending my entire life working for a product that will become normal a couple of weeks after I buy it.
Humans are only sensitive to change. A positive change feels good. No change feels normal. A negative change feels awful. A sensible person would try to fill their life with positive change.
For what it’s worth, a 2019 base-model Civic includes a backup camera, automatic emergency braking, adaptive cruise control, lane-keep assist, road departure mitigation, more airbags, and every other safety improvement Honda engineers have come up with since 2004. It’s also more fuel efficient, which would reduce your consumption of fossil fuels.
Current Civic wouldn't be a "luxury" item anyway.
> fastest phone
Are folks running ML training algorithms on their phones? Why does one need the "fastest phone"? How many apps are there for which how fast your phone is even matters? I am not saying people shouldn't buy these phones but the pricing on these things is absolutely insane, it seems people are basically paying an Apple tax on these devices. Even high end devices from other manufacturers are not priced this crazy.
Nearly every road in the world has a speed limit. Car manufacturers still quote top speed and advertise based a cars racing pedigree.
95% of bankers and doctors driving BMW or Mercedes don’t use these features but still pay for them. Same with phones but a $1000 iPhone is far more in reach of aspirational buyers than a $50k German car.
> Why does one need the "fastest phone"?
We shouldn't need them, but we do, because the quality of consumer software is very poor these days. To enable "rapid" and "agile" development, where "customer value" is delivered "continuously", developers write under-optimised, resource-hungry software that never gets refactored.
You're absolutely correct that the prices of these phones are insane, but let's be honest here – a base-model Samsung Galaxy S10 is $899.99 MSRP. You can get them on Amazon for $699, which puts them at the same price as iPhone 11. So I'm not quite buying the Apple tax, unless your argument is that Apple is allowing everyone else to charge high prices, in which case you may be on to something.
The key app that needs the "fastest phone" these days seems to be the web browser.
Would you like to see how slow youtube loads on my three year old i7 laptop? Or my two year old cheap Android? Speed makes a big difference
This is a great point. It’s a premium product that people will buy simply because they like nice things.
I’ll buy one because I like buying new/nice things and the fact that for $1200 I’ll get a lot of value out of it, due to how much I use my phone is an added bonus.
This is definitely not a compelling upgrade for many people.
> Does everyone here also drive a base model Honda Civic because “car hardware is done”?
Well, I do (although it's a base model Hyundai). I also still use an iPhone SE and will do for the foreseeable future.
> Well, I do (although it's a base model Hyundai). I also still use an iPhone SE and will do for the foreseeable future.
I consider myself to have been "tricked by business" (as Macklemore would put it) when I bought a Tesla Model X in 2016. It replaced a 2014 LEAF, and I can honestly say that I regretted it and wished I had kept the LEAF. The difference in cost didn't make up for the difference in overall driving experience and utility for me. I've since traded in the Tesla for cheaper PHEV, and I'm much happier with that now.
I also am still using a Pixel 2. Nothing about anything else on the market today seems compelling enough to convince me to replace it. So I guess I'm joining a chorus on this thread.
Base Model 2014 Mazda 3, because yes, ICE car hardware has nearly peaked. I will continue to row my own gears in a little 40mpg sedan until electric is an attainable option. Same goes for phones. Buy cheap, buy well.
> It’s not that big a deal...
Climate change is a big deal. Electronic waste pollution is a big deal. Apple breaking labor laws is a big deal.
Those are all fair points, and I agree with you on each of them! But they have to do with buying new things in general, not the new iPhone specifically.
If you eat meat, drive a car, fly in planes, live in a big house, have kids, etc., buy all the iPhones you want. It’s not going to make a lick of difference when it comes to climate change.
Unless you can personally sink several supertankers, you really can't do anything about climate change.
> fun and feels great to have the fastest phone and fanciest camera.
This is what the richest company in the history of humanity is here for: making feel good gadgets. What an achievement. Meanwhile: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/apple-foxconn-caught...
I'm quite sad they have removed 3D Touch from the phones. A minor feature I really enjoy with quick peeking — and bummed to lose that touch information for apps like Procreate Pocket and other drawing tools.
I thought it was a pretty good feature although it worked better when it was new and apple were more invested in it.
In particular the three best common uses were moving the cursor for the keyboard, selecting things, and previewing web pages.
1. Felt like they made it slightly worse at some point but still good (though it fails on some websites which try to do weird hacks things)
2. This was great. Selecting things outside the keyboard was broken by a software update a few years ago but the keyboard was still good. (A hidden feature is that if you select a word then press shift, the keyboard recommends capitalising/uppercasing the word. I wish this worked for larger selections, downcasing, quotes and brackets (and I guess ¿? too))
3. Was handy to see what a link had without wasting time (going there then back wasn’t perfect for buggy websites like twitter which break navigation). It also helped unbreak webpages that did weird things with navigation (the pop up was a “new” page which the JS didn’t see as a link click and if you pressed harder then navigation would be successful). It was I think always broken for urls with an anchor (I.e. ending in #foo) and would either not scroll on pop up or lose its place if you opened/new tabbed the page. In a recent version it breaks with high probability by laying out pages with a width of 0 so one cannot see the contents of the page in the pop up.
They've probably kept the "long press action" for compat reasons? It's equally undiscoverable. I'm not super sad about this one; it was a weird thing from the beginning. It shouldn't have been introduced at all.
This feature was introduced in 2014. The timing of the removal makes me think it's related to the departure of Jony Ives.
> They've probably kept the "long press action" for compat reasons?
I'm not sure what you mean. From what I can tell, they're introducing the long press action all over the OS, to replace Peek and Pop with "context menus". https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...
Previously, they had the long press action in just a few spots for non-3D Touch phones (like on Control Center icons on the iPhone XR).
I've been on the iOS 13 beta for a while now and I vastly prefer the new context menus (although on my iPhone X I can trigger the context menu with either a long press or 3D Touch).
To clarify: In order to maintain app compatibility with this ill-advised HW feature that they are now abandoning, they will need to do something. I'm guessing they'll probably translate long press events into force touch events for third party apps. Do you have better intel?
Oh, I see what you mean. I would assume that the Peek menu UI will remain supported, or perhaps there will be a compat library that will port it to the iOS 13 context menus. I'm not sure. I also don't know how it would work if a pre-iOS 13 third-party app implemented both 3D Touch and a long press to do different things on the same UI element.
It's difficult to reliably do one and not the other for some people, myself included.
Exactly. I think I end up doing a long press any time I mean to do a "force press" anyway.
> The timing of the removal makes me think it's related to the departure of Jony Ives
This has been in the pipeline for awhile. The XR already didn't have it, the SE didn't have it, and the iPad never had it. It's the type of feature that can't be truly great until it gets full support across the board, but that never really materialized.
Perhaps Ives met severe resistance internally regarding this feature and the lack at least on iPad can be explained by internal politics? (The SE exception can be explained by cost cutting rationales.)
XR - I dunno.
The lack of 3D Touch on iPad was due to difficulty getting it to work on the large screen (obviously nobody knows that for sure, but those were the rumors years ago).
The lack of 3D Touch on XR was due to cost, and apparently their plan to ditch it everywhere.
The lack of 3D Touch on iPhone Pro...that's disappointing. It would have been a great "Pro" feature to offer. A "Pro" feature that allows you to be more productive on your phone. Aside for the video features (which I don't see being used by professionals anyway), what makes this device a "Pro" anything?
Ive, not Ives.
> They've probably kept the "long press action" for compat reasons? It's equally undiscoverable.
It also doesn't do half as much. E.g. the long-press on the keyboard spacebar only moves the cursor, it doesn't do 3D touch's text selections.
Ive been using iOS 13 and am not liking the haptic touch enhancements like...
1. Now to delete an app from homescreen I have to choose from a menu and then click the X to delete. Inside the menu I usually see "share this app," which for me holds no value.
2. The worst is haptic touch in Safari. While scrolling now Im constantly tapping a link and opening a maddening preview window. Terrible... anyone know how to turn that off?
If you keep your finger on the icon a little bit longer after the menu shows up then it will start shaking and you can delete it. No need to use the menu.
Yes: when the preview shows up you can turn it off from the menu that comes alongside it.
Thanks and unfortunately I still see a preview menu just not the full preview window.
I don't want to scroll while browsing and have any windows appear unless I click a specified link. With this addition each link I scroll and mistakenly grab brings up this annoying preview menu.
I don't get it ... is this addition helpful to others? Anyone else extremely annoyed by it?
I'm not really a fan of the new presentation, but that's mostly because it animates in a really annoying, bubbly way :/
I kinda saw it coming with XR.. It’s still bad tho.
3D touch is an _amazing_ feature for power users, and one of the few that markedly differentiated the iphones from competition. Biggest thing is text editing of course, where 3D selection increases productivity _several times_, but potential was even greater if implemented more.
Ironic that they are marketing this one as pro.
I bought a X recently and plan on keeping it for years. If they software disable it with an OS update or some BS i’m gonna be so mad.
Also, I feel kinda stupid saying it but I feel like this is the sort of thing steve Jobs would have pushed harder for
It’s basically dead in iOS 13 even for phones that still support it.
Force press to select a word is still faster that long press by an order of magnitude. Same for the new context menus and keyboard cursor movement.
Second force press to extend selection is much faster and more precise than picking the small markers.
it’s more like force touch is made more consistent overall and blends in instead of being a showcase feature confusingly entirely separate of long press.
I use it even more than before, and still miss it on my iPad. Together with the disappearance of fingerprint unlocking, seeing it disappear is one more factor for me not to upgrade beyond iPhone 8.
Don’t get me wrong, there are compelling reasons to upgrade for me (bigger screen, photography) but for my usage it feels like a significant enough compromise at that price point.
Force press to select a word just doesn’t really work well. I am trying it now in Safari and most of the time the word is selected and the menu pops up and when I release my finger the menu and selection instantly disappear. Other places with force touch actions I’ve found equally buggy.
edit: Oh i played with it a bit more and it seems you have to press gently first, then hard. You can’t press hard straight away or it reinterprets it as a light touch after you let go. That’s quite unintuitive.
Personally, I absolutely hate 3D Touch. I've never been able to get the hang of the distinction between it and a long press, so something as simple as moving apps around or selecting a character with an umlaut is incredibly frustrating.
It was a hidden feature that Apple struggled to communicate (and was hard to describe without physically trying it) was always going to be problematic.
How do you train users? What is the discoverability? It was a legitimate problem when most of your user-base aren't tech nerds and most people aren't reading the manual/help guides.
So you implement an app feature via 3D Touch and users just assume that feature doesn't exist (because they don't discover it). Then you add it twice (3D Touch AND non-3D Touch) and you're now maintaining two things, and have gained little to nothing via 3D Touch.
I liken it to Windows 8's gesture UI failure. If users cannot discover it, it doesn't exist. So you cannot really build much around it because you have to assume user ignorance.
How do you train users about mouse right button?
By implementing it at the beginning of a UX paradigm cycle when the numbers of users are small, curious and in learning mode. Like how right-clicking was introduced when the number of Windows users was like 1/1000 of the number of the peak number of Windows users.
You don't implement it during/after peaking of said cycle. That's some crazy level of delusion/arrogance. Turns out not even Apple can do pull that stunt.
And I’d wager a significant percentage of Windows users still don’t use it (or don’t understand when to use it).
And it’s vastly more discoverable than 3D Touch.
with a huge amount of difficulty?
Most computer users still don't use middle-click/scroll wheel click, or even the back/forward buttons and they're almost twenty years old.
By simply pointing at another hard to train piece of hidden functionality and saying "what about THIS?!" you haven't really proven anything, except that with enough forced training anything can become common knowledge.
3D Touch is exactly like right click, but they're also competing against implicit training via passed users of Apple's own products, other touch devices, and even other computing (since no other platform has anything like 3D Touch).
They offered no on-screen guide or tutorial when it launched.
The 3D Touch on the keyboard to edit text is absolutely amazing. I use it all the time and saves me a lot of time. I love it. It's a shame that most people don't know about it.
However I don't use any other feature with 3D touch, either because I don't know about it or I find it useful.
That feature is also available without 3D Touch, just use a long press.
The long press doesn't have the same capability. With 3D touch you can also select text by pressing harder on the screen, which is the real magic of that feature.
I also use 3D touch along the left edge for app switching.
The worst part is that they removed it but didn't replace hard press gestures on push notifications with long press gestures.
So now on any phone without 3D Touch, which is all of them going forward, you can't open notification actions in a single gesture. Have to swipe and hit View.
I hate this.
Is this confirmed yet? Would be sad indeed.
The Pro has "haptic touch" which is just the long press instead. See: https://www.apple.com/iphone-11-pro/specs/
Neither 11 nor 11 Pro have 3D Touch.
I never quite liked it. Trello for example - with 3D Touch, it never quite worked nicely for the long press.
Disappointing that the base configuration of the iPhone 11 Pro has 64 GB of storage. If you're going to call it Pro and talk about how you can shoot professional video, you can't ship it with 64 GB of storage.
EDIT: Also, they don't let you jump to 128 GB. You have to go to 256 GB, for $150 more. I can see why they didn't talk about this at the event. People would have booed.
I’m pretty sure they don’t force everyone to shoot lots of multi camera 4K videos just because the model serves their needs in other ways.
About half of the people I help choose phones would be fine with 64 GB, me included. There’s no point making them buy a bunch of flash memory they will never use just to get the better still camera that they want.
> About half of the people I help choose phones would be fine with 64 GB. There’s no point making them buy a bunch of flash memory they will never use just to get the better still camera that they want.
But would you be counseling these people to get the iPhone Pro in the first place? I would guess that most folks who want the Pro would want more than 64 GB.
iCloud storage makes it fairly easy to not keep everything you've ever recorded on your phone, it really depends on the user. Back when you kept all your music and all your photos/video it was more critical to have a ton of storage locally.
Most people buying the expensive model will probably opt for more storage, but for those that don't need it I don't see a problem with offering a lower tier.
iCloud storage costs money. If you want to back up a phone that has 64 GB of storage you're going to pay $36/yr or more. Keep your phone for 2-3 years, and you're paying $70-$100 extra. Might as well quadruple your storage and skip the cloud.
I have no problem with them offering a lower tier either. That's what the non-Pro iPhone 11 is for.
I guess we have different ideas of pro users. I'll take the cloud storage / backup any day of the week. If you're really doing the math on $3 a month you probably shouldn't be looking at a $1000 phone regardless of storage capacity.
We do have different ideas of Pro users. I don't know any who use iCloud, which has reliability issues and is inside a walled garden. I'm as big an Apple fan as anyone, but iCloud is a joke.
I've even asked Genius Bar employees exactly how people are supposed to use the iCloud photo backup. They've admitted that they don't really know what to make of the system, which is not transparent with regard to what photos have been downloaded where. It is difficult for the average user to understand how the file-shrinking system works with photos, and which photos exist only in the cloud versus on their machines.
It's an iPhone backup, of course it's a "walled garden". It works really well, maybe you haven't used it in years. I can literally throw my phone into the ocean, walk into an Apple Store and within a short time be right back to where I was. About the only things that get lost are Face ID and Apple Pay, which don't last through any backup because the Secure Element is one way.
Not all iPhone backups are walled gardens. I can back up to my computer, and back that up to various local/cloud drives. I don't want another thing that's wedded to an ecosystem that I might leave at some point.
Also, if I'm already paying for generic cloud storage services, why should I pay for Apple-specific cloud services, at a more expensive price per GB?
Can't even acres the files on Android...
Can you access your Android backup from iOS? I'm talking about the OS level backup/restore functionality, not generic file storage a la Dropbox.
Now you have a giant phone, tons of photos, and no backup. People with the bigger phone are probably more likely to be buying the extra $36/yr, not less.
I back my phone up locally, just like I always have. It's the only way to get a full backup of all app states and data. iCloud only backs up certain data.
Most people arent plugging their phone into a computer, even weekly.
Apple also has created a super terrible backup system, where iCloud and iTunes cant work together. Its very dumb that once I switch to local, that I lose iCloud. Maybe I want to go on vacation for a week, without my computer, and then come back and resume local backups. Why cant iTunes use iCloud as part of its version history??
> Most people arent plugging their phone into a computer, even weekly.
The phones have synced wirelessly for quite a long while now. And with wireless charging on the newer models, doing so is just so damn easy.
> Its very dumb that once I switch to local, that I lose iCloud.
Can’t you still rely on iCloud for saving and backing up app data, while retaining the full local sync and backup in iTunes? I don’t recall iCloud being disabled when locally syncing, and am pretty sure apps still save data to iCloud on my devices.
> Why cant iTunes use iCloud as part of its version history??
Is that really necessary when iTunes can already sync and backup the whole device as it is when you activate the sync/backup process?
Wireless but still needs power, no? And my computer has to be on?
The rest of my complaint is mostly about how complicated a restore becomes if I was using local backup, and then arent home for a while, and need to remerge local and cloud backups. Last I remember, the interface makes you choose one or the other to restore, and then your version history gets all mucked up, as the one you choose becomes the new golden branch.
> Wireless but still needs power, no? And my computer has to be on?
Don't you charge your phone, in range of your computer?
Not anymore. iCloud backs up app states and data. I restore multiple devices from the cloud regularly and I wouldn’t do so if app meta data wasn’t stored on iCloud.
> iCloud backs up app states and data.
Although I believe the app developers have to be aware of this and utilise the various storage options correctly - certainly in my latest restore, a whole bunch of apps had lost their state (logins, etc.) Most disconcerting and aggravatingly inconvenient.
iCloud storage will not help people while they are recording 4k 60FPS.
Fine, make 64 for base users, but it's still a d* move to go from 64 GB right to 256 GB.
That's just marketing to make sure you buy the more expensive models while base model appears to be somewhat reasonably priced. Usual marketing mindhack.
Theres also a crazy amount of enterprise purchases who dont care about storage. Everything is stored off device, and an MDM is keeping whats on the device to a minimum.
Companies would still be buying 32GB by the truckfull if it was available. Apple was right to discontinue it because 32GB wasnt enough to run the OS anymore, while also being a usable phone.
Since you cant run a phone without iOS, and stripping the OS down isnt an option, I think they should be legally required to be truthful in advertising and sell it as a 50-55GB iPhone, probably 50 if they plan on using some of the space for device upgrades.
> Apple was right to discontinue it because 32GB wasnt enough to run the OS anymore, while also being a usable phone.
I use 20 GB on my iPhone SE quite comfortably. It's absolutely enough to be usable.
You also can’t take video or pictures at the resolution of the newer iPhones - requiring more storage.
My iPhone can take 4K video and 12 MP photos, the same as the newest iPhones.
The SE can only do 4K video at 30FPS, so it uses half the space the newer iPhones do (since most users will use 60FPS).
Sure, but it still means that it’s possible to use your phone comfortably with 32 GB of storage.
Although HEVC/HEIC has roughly halved these storage requirements.
> Theres also a crazy amount of enterprise purchases who dont care about storage.
Agreed, but that's what iPhone 11 is for... There's virtually no commercial reason for 95% of enterprise users to have a Pro version.
A Pro version for most of 2020 that can shoot multiple videos at the same time in 4k, with 64gb... I don't know, doesn't sit well with me. I'm all for keeping the base model basic and as low-cost as possible to those who needn't anything more. But then either reasonably price your storage, or create a 128gb option in between, especially if you don't allow SD cards. And especially when Apple is just fine offering 128gb on the 11, but not the Pro... It's a bit much.
Not that its an enterprise case, but personally id get the Pro for the OLED screen moreso than the camera.
Id maybe bet the other reason they dont offer 128 on the pro is supply chain related, they have all their 128 dedicated to the standard model.
There is no need to do mental gymnastics on this.
The reason is simple: profit.
Doesn't Apple support deleting builtin apps from the phone now?
You can remove the icons from the home screen, but it doesn’t actually delete the app from the device storage. They’ve said that’s in case you need or want one of the apps again; it’ll “reinstall” essentially instantly.
Oh sure, I think everyone understands and expects this to some extent. But the Pro model should not have the same base storage as the non-Pro model. Especially with all the emphasis on the professional-level cameras on the iPhone Pro.
The sensors on the Pro model is still 12MPs. HEIC can compress the output of these sensors in an hard to imagine way. A movie takes around 60MB per minute in 1080p30. Photos are also somewhat negligible now.
I think it's still an issue for video. Who's buying a $1000+ "pro camera system" to record 1080p30? I'm sure the bitrates for 4K60 are still pretty high.
4K60 is 400 MB per minute. 24GB/hr.
I still use my iPhone as a Palm handheld with GSM functionality, like a glorified Treo. While I take a lot of photos, video is a rarity for me. So in my case, 1080p30 is alright.
OTOH, I also have a Sony A7iii so, I'm not confined to my iPhone for imagery if I need something really high quality.
People who want to take high quality pictures and don’t really care about video.
32GB of video at 4K is still ~2 hours of video at 30fps. I take a fair amount of pictures, but I don’t think I have taken 30 minutes of video in the last 4 years.
The sensors may have stayed the same, but isn't it taking 3 photos now instead of 1? We don't yet know whether it automatically saves the telephoto, wide, and ultra-wide photos separately, but from the rumors I'd heard it retains them all. Perhaps this is a setting that can be changed, but it means that if you want to use the phone to it's capability, you're going to have a lot more photo storage than before.
One presentation today made a big deal about "able to record 2 video streams at once (among the 4 cameras)".
Capture rate for multiple streams is one problem. Storage space is another, solved largely by the seamless iCloud integration; get an unlimited data plan or Wi-Fi connection, and the imagery will all just migrate off the device until needed wherever.
A landscape image takes 1.5MB when compressed with HEIC. Even it stores all three of them and uses a bit less compression due to better lenses and sensors, it'll be around 6MB per image. It's very efficient for the resolution if you ask me.
: Inspected a fairly complex sunset shot taken with my iPhone X.
The non-pro model looks like the successor to the XR, no telephoto camera, the screen is LCD not OLED with lower PPI, and a cheaper frame (aluminum not stainless steel) and maybe one or two more things I forgot.
Yea. It's for the "starting at"-price which can then be set even lower as the more expensive non-pro variants or products from the competition.
As long as you have a decent iCloud data subscription, all that 4k video quickly gets whisked away to the cloud.
The 64GB on the device effectively houses installed apps and an effective cache of thumbnails and downloaded content.
I have the 256 GB config and the needle basically never moves up from about 45 GB.
I noticed that recently and am wondering if I would be fine with the lowest storage option in the future. I have 128GB and have never gone above 60GB. I am sitting on 20GB's of local music that hasn't been touched since I switched to streaming music two years ago.
I "downgraded" from a 256GB iPhone X to a 64GB iPhone XS with iCloud subscription. The initial sync to iCloud Photos will take a few days, but after that one can consider the iCloud library to be the source of truth.
The iPhone XS is currently at 55.3GB filled, and I have over 400 apps installed.
The problem with keeping it in iCloud is how do you get it all out of iCloud? Say onto Linux, or into another cloud like Dropbox or Google Drive?
You can dump them all via the iCloud.com website if you so desire, the iCloud software on Windows can do the same.
Alternately use Google photos w/ google drive subscription.
Which they removed a few months ago.
They just removed photos showing in drive, you still get unlimited photos/videos in original quality with a drive sub.
Sync to local storage, drag and drop, sync happens to other cloud.
Have a Mac running set to sync all iCloud content locally. From there you can manually access all media or automate sync/backup to some other service.
The one thing that bothers me is the 2TB max on iCloud storage... I'm not close to hitting it, I think I've used 250 GB, but I'm also not that far away either with all these super HD iPhone features. I wonder if they will add a new plan at some point.
It’s not like 64 GB is useless. A lot of people don’t fill that... why make them buy more than they’ll use?
That explains the lack of a 128GB option… not at all.
I've always felt it's just clever marketing, feast or famine. Remove the Goldilocks/mid-grade option and let the customer regret not spending enough.
> clever marketing
It's more asshole design than clever.
If they had a 128GB option you could say the same thing about the lack of a 96GB option. There are hundreds of billions of potential storage sizes in this range. Apple has to be practical and choose some very small selection of storage options.
> If they had a 128GB option you could say the same thing about the lack of a 96GB option.
No. Apple offers storage upgrade in 2x increments so 96GB would make no sense, and they do offer 128GB on several models.
Except they previously offered 128 GB phones (and still do).
That argument makes sense for phones that aren't classified as "PRO".
How many professional photographers and videographers do you think are using an iPhone to perform their work? Pro is not a gated marketing term with a legally defined meaning like Champagne.
But who's classifying it as PRO? Professionals definitely aren't, and that's what matters. They aren't walking around with any phone as their main tool. Let Apple call their phones rocket ships if the name fits; astronauts won't care.
i'm inclined to believe that pro is aimed at people willing to drop a ton of money that think they're pro more than they actually do professional work, and that's sort of been a lot of apple's theme around their "pro" products regarding photography
It is just an upgrade to an existing lineup of Xs+Max, but with a reworked naming scheme (similar to iPad vs. iPad Pro). It is about as Pro as Xs+Max were.
Do you see a lot of artists using iPad Pro as their main tool? Me neither, but I do see a lot of them using it as their secondary tool that also doubles as a general-purpose personal computing device. Which is what, I feel, iPhone Pro lineup was made for.
Apple seems to keep 128 GB in reserve till the model drops to the base of the lineup. For example, the iPhone 8 is now available w/128GB at $499. Before today, it was available w/256 GB at $749. The 64 GB model dropped in price by $150 from $599 to $449.
Refurb pricing on the iPhone 8 is now $379 (64GB) / $509 (256 GB).
Because the 128 a sweet spot and most people don't have a need for more. The 64 size is just enough to push most intensive users over the hump and in to iCloud subscriptions. I'm sure Apple has all the analytics on how much space is being used by their users and how much iCloud subscriptions would take a hit with an 128 offering.
Except I just noticed the new 11 is available in all three sizes (64/128/256).
Whatever, this doesn't bother me so much about their phones. The non-upgradable storage in their laptops is a much bigger issue.
iPhone 11 Pro and Pro Max is available only in 64/256/512GB capacities.
iPhone 11 (non pro) is available in 64/128/256GB capacities.
64 GB is just not enough space if you plan to use the camera a lot. I have a 2nd gen Pixel with 64 GB of space and I find myself running out of space often if I end up recording 4K video or enable RAW shots. Mind you, Pixel has unlimited full resolution storage with Google Photos so cloud storage is not an issue; but you need to be in good wifi to utilize that. While traveling, that might not be the case always.
I honestly think all these high end phones focused on camera, should at least start with 128 GB of space. OS and apps are big enough anyway.
I like how Samsung has stuck to its guns on some of the features that Apple and later others dropped, biggest being the external card support, dual sim support and audio jack. Only if they were not hell bent on adding their own customizations, I would have loved to try one.
With the release of the Note 10 and Note 10+ you can take "audio jack" off the list.
People wouldn’t have booed. This is the same storage pricing as the previous two generations.
People wouldn't have booed because other than journalists, the theater was filled with Apple employees.
People booed 2 years ago when they announced the price and they booed this year when they announced the Mac Pro pricing, You could hear it when they announced that expensive stand so that’s clearly not true.
The is pure speculation, but I think it could still hold true. Consider that many Apple employees aren't involved with every project, and Apple is known to heavily segment their developers.
So you might be an Apple Fan who happens to be an employee - except you work on idk iMessages or something - you might still be disappointed to see a 1000$ stand, especially from a company you work for.
Given it's a crowded room, I highly doubt employees would be reprimanded for just booing.
Do you honestly think apple the masters of PR wouldn't care if their own employees was booing at product releases?
I would imagine that would be a pretty big deal with stern words with HR / management or worse if caught
We booed previously also.
There were no previous generations of Pro iPhones. I get that these are replacing the XS and XS Max, but those were not designated Pro. When you put that label on, you have to give all of Pro devices storage to match.
Why would people boo when the new "Pro" models have the same pricing as previous non-"Pro" models? That doesn't make sense. If anything, the "Pro" designation would be expected to cost more.
Of course, it's going to be very obvious to most people that the new iPhone 11 is the direct successor to the XR, and the iPhone Pros are the direct successors to the X, XS, and XS Max.
I think you're reading way to into the naming scheme. They simply ran out of letters and went with Pro to designate the more expensive model. It's still a smartphone, it's not like there is a large market out there for people who make and edit feature films with phones.
Wholeheartedly agree, especially when demoing the ability to film simultaneously on multiple cameras, and the 4K front-facing camera. The 64 GB is really a slap in the face.
Most buyers of these phones will not film simultaneously on multiple cameras. 64GB is for them. If you're going to use that particular feature, you're buying the largest capacity phone you can.
> Most buyers of these phones will not film simultaneously on multiple cameras.
They why buy the Pro? Why not just get the normal 11?
The Pro has a bunch of other features besides filming simultaneously on multiple cameras.
I agree. I've been an Android user since 2009 iirc and never owned and iPhone, I am going to buy an iPhone as my next phone due to all the shenanigans Google is doing. Every damn Android phone I've bought lately has Facebook preinstalled, theres other things, but I'm done with it all.
The one thing that kills me about iPhones is the miniscule amount of storage I get. I dont want all my things in the cloud, the cloud is useless to me without access to internet. The cloud is only useful for long-term backup storage if anything.
My phone comes with 64GB and I'm using 58 of that data, I popped in a 64GB SIM card and I'm only using 12 probably cause I filled it up before and wanted to have room for more photos and stuff. I may well buy an iPhone but I want more storage space out of the box, not some cloud solution. It also annoys me that the Macbook Air starts out at 128GB, that gets eaten up so quickly as a developer.
Pixel phones don't have facebook preinstalled
They've got the rest of Google's software preinstalled on the other hand. I don't want every single Google service on my phone, and some of them you can't uninstall.
I was actually surprised at how obnoxious the forced Google Assistant integration was on an Android One phone compared to an Essential Phone, which is about as bloat-free as you can get for Android.
I always loved LG and their G series of phones despite always bundling Facebook garbage, and this time around they added a button for Google Assistant. I disabled that button, too often would I accidentally press it and now my convos go off into the corporate cloud to be lost in who knows what state. Worse yet: I can't repurpose the button. I would love a "Skip Song" button on my phone for when I'm driving.
A preinstalled app is the reason to switch the platforms? Sorry, not buying that. It takes a few seconds to uninstall.
I am in the same boat. I have an S7 from one of the major carriers that came preinstalled with Facebook. You can disable it, but not uninstall. Also, there is an update to "Facebook Services" which I can't seem to find and disable. I absolutely will not get another phone from Samsung (or others) that comes with Facebook preinstalled.
>A preinstalled app is the reason to switch the platforms?
No. What they actually said :-
>Every damn Android phone I've bought lately has Facebook preinstalled, theres other things, but I'm done with it all.
If they'd stuck everything in it you want and the base price was $1600 people would be complaining about that and it would be a brand shattering headline. Yes, they are marketing people; but they are balancing a lot of constraints -- a little engineers...
[EDIT: "brand" instead of "branch"]
This isn't new. Both the X and XS jumped from 64GB to 256GB.
Good point, although those phones were not called Pro phones. They were top-of-the-line, but it was more understandable to offer a 64 GB version without the Pro moniker.
FWIW, there are other people in the world beside you. And they have different needs and desires. I am one of those people. 64GB is perfect for me. I wouldn't upgrade to 128GB of storage even if it were available.
> FWIW, there are other people in the world beside you. And they have different needs and desires.
Which everyone supports, if there was a reasonably priced 128gb option for the Pro, the complaint wouldn't be as strong. But there isn't such an option. You either use 64, or at least 4x that much (which, after subtracting 14 from the OS, is actually 5x that much). That's just a pretty silly scale, not granular at all.
So you squeeze tons of consumers to take too little because they don't want to pay for a 5x jump when they need 2x, or squeeze them into doing just that and overpaying, or squeeze them into a cloud subscription. It's not matching the product to the needs in the way that they could.
Meanwhile the 11 gets 128, just not the Pro.
> Meanwhile the 11 gets 128, just not the Pro.
There are three tiers. On the 11, the tiers are 64, 128, 256. On the Pro the tiers are 64, 256, 512. If you want to make an entry level model at 64gb, a top tier at 512gb, and one tier in the middle, then that's a logical way to step things up.
> So you squeeze tons of consumers to take too little because they don't want to pay for a 5x jump when they need 2x, or squeeze them into doing just that and overpaying, or squeeze them into a cloud subscription. It's not matching the product to the needs in the way that they could.
But this logic works the other way: if you only have a 128gb entry level model, then you are forcing consumers who only need 64gb to buy more storage than they need.
So your real gripe is that there isn't a 128gb tier in between the 64gb and 256gb. But the price difference between those tiers is only $150. So the 128gb tier would be something like $50 or $100 less than the 256gb tier. If your huge problem is that you have to pay an extra 5-10% of purchase price because their storage tiers don't perfectly align with your needs, then maybe you're not the target audience.
And 128gb is not some magic number. What about people who only need 300gb? Why should they be forced to pay for 512gb when they only need an additional 50gb on top of the 256gb? Because you have to split things up somehow, that's why. Things just didn't get split in a way that is convenient for you.
> If you're going to call it Pro and talk about how you can shoot professional video
If I'll decide to shot professional video, it will be more suitable device like Go Pro or Sony, depends from type.
"Pro" label completely lost his sense today, just ignore it.
Because when you run out of space on your baseline pro model, they can sell you subscription to their cloud storage
I have the XS Max 64 gig and I haven't really had a problem with space and I shoot quite a bit. I am pretty religious with offloading to the cloud, google drive in particular.
Now would I buy another 64 gig again? Probably not, at least with arcade coming and knowing how fast the games eat up space.
I have 64GB Max (for the screen size and zoom lens) and I'm perfectly happy with it. iMessage and Safari don't even need that much. Not everyone has to shoot motion pictures on their phone.
This storage hasn't changed for almost a decade now, I'd expect 64GB to have been canned well before something like, say, the headphone jack. Even 128GB is quite low these days.
What? the 2017 iPhone was the first with 64gb base storage as far as I know. 2 years later, it's still the base. Disappointing but not so crazy, especially with the cloud option.
A decade ago we had the 2009 iPhone (3GS) with 8gb base and 32gb max. 64gb didn't exist in the iPhone.
Still I think it'd have been fine to go 64 for the iPhone, but do 128 base for the Pro... Ah well, maybe next year.
They have to to make the price point and keep the big profit margin. Same reason the iPhone 11 still has a sub-1080p screen even though it's a 6" screen.
Have iPhone X models appeared in Apple's refurb store before today? I just checked, and they're now available. The new top models seem outrageously expensive to me.
Well, I suppose you can always attach a USB harddisk, right (?)
According to Apple's specs, there is still a 256 GB option.
Sorry, I updated my edit.
Still ridiculous, $150 more for an upgrade that most people will have to purchase.
I would be quite surprised if "most people" bought the $150 upgrade.
Because it has been that way for years? Why would people boo for the existing structure?
Why would people boo for a bad thing? I don't know.
There's no excuse for under-speccing a $1000 phone and charging $150 to add a $40 NAND chip to it.
(Looks at Apple's profit margins and revenue)
Oh that's why.
I mean that's like booing the Lightning connector. It's a known quantity and is no worse this year than last year.
Yes, that's fine. Boo that too.
Why are you against booing bad things? Are you an APPL investor making a lot of money on these choices? If not, I really can't understand your position here.
You're defining "bad things" to suit you. If you boo the lightning connector, I boo a switch to USB-C. Why make me buy all new cables? Why make me replace my nightstand charger?
Boo changes you don't like, okay, fine. Boo the status quo? That's... odd.
Only a small subset of the population has any lightning connectors at all. The present standard is usb-c. Using an out-of-date standard is worth booing. It's like if a monitor continued sticking with dvi and never made the move to displayport or hdmi or usb-c.
USB-C is far from the current standard, it's pretty much only used by flagship Android phones and some laptops. I would say far more people have a lightning device than a USB-C device right now.
You must be living in an entirely different universe because everyone I know uses tons of usb-c all day.
How about the most popular noise cancelling headphones, the Sony 1000XM3 (usb-c). I see them everywhere.
Some laptops? More like all laptops. Find me one being sold now without usb-c. They would be a joke. The best tablet, the iPad Pro is usb-c (though yes I know the lower end ones are lightning).
What about the best video gear. All the best mirrorless video cameras like the Panasonic GH5, Sony A7iii, Nikon Z7, Fuji T-X3, BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera, all with usb-c. The best webcam out there, the Logitech Brio with usb-c.
Let's talk about specialty gear. The most popular external disk, Sandisk Portable Extreme with usb-c. The most popular mobile hotspot, the Nighthawk mobile router has usb-c. The most popular audio interface, Focusrite, uses usb-c pretty much for all their products now. The best presentation remote, the Logitech Spotlight is usb-c charging.
Me and my friends have flashlights, shavers, toothbrushes, VR headsets and remotes, all with usb-c. Great for travel.
Basically, any good product being released now is usb-c, and has been for the past couple years.
>I would say far more people have a lightning device than a USB-C device right now.
This seems funny since Android outsells Apple 4 to 1 and Windows outsells Apple 5 to 1, (and Android and Windows use USB-C for phones and laptops respectively). So quick math here would tell you that USB-C penetration is 4 to 5 times more broad than lightning based purely on sales.
EDIT: Also Apple uses USB-C on some laptops, so those numbers would affect it too
But that includes all Androids, for a very long time USB-C was only in the flagship Android phones and even today there are lots of low end Android phones being made that are Micro USB.
Plus, lightning has been out for 7 years in all of Apple's mobile products, while USB-C has only been semi-mainstream for 3-4 years.
If I had to rank connectors by how many devices use them it would probably be Micro USB - Lightning - USB-C
Edit: if we include laptops and other non-mobile devices, I would say that normal USB far surpasses everything else usage wise, USB-C seems to only be in the high end laptops and even then most laptops have some normal USB ports as well.
Every existing iPhone user has a lightning connector, and the cable(s) or charger to charge with it.
>You're defining "bad things" to suit you. I
Excuse me? 64GB standard storage for a "PRO" labeled $1000 phone that extensively advertises its professional video capacity is not an arbitrary or personal definition of bad. It's objectively inferior to its competition. It's objectively the lowest storage space of any $1000+ phone on the market.
That you would conflate this discussion to think these are arbitrary opinions seems dishonest.
>"Boo changes you don't like, okay, fine. Boo the status quo? That's... odd."
It seems like you accept predatory profit-driven business decisions as "status quo" even when competitors offer far better options. I don't get your definition of "status quo" when it's synonymous "worst in class".
The Galaxy Note 10 at $1000 comes standard with 256GB, an upgrade which makes the iPhone cost $1150.
But sure, "status quo", as long as the current state of the market and state of competition isn't considered...
$40 NAND? You do realize apple doesn’t just use any NAND, right? They use high performance ones. Those cost more.
Let's not pretend that Apple doesn't charge HUGE premiums for memory/storage.
For the iMac Pro it's $400 to go from 32GB to 64GB of memory. High end memory is around $140 for the same jump. "High performance" - it's the same 2666MHz chips.
Storage? Samsung NVMe prices are around $300 per TERABYTE. Tell more about the high performance silicon Apple is using that is worth $800/TB.
Where did I say they didn’t charge a premium? All I said was I think $40 is on the low end.
1TB 970 EVO is $170 on Amazon.com, not $300.
I was trying to be indulgent and go with the PRO line.
The highest speed consumer M.2 drives go around $180/TB. Apple doesn't pay retail prices. $40 could well be a significant overestimate, especially given it's displacing an existing chip.
yeah anything less than 512gb should be considered junk and not pro.... because I don't like the cloud. (I am not being sarcastic, those companies are just too greedy..)
> I can see why they didn't talk about this at the event. People would have booed.
I doubt it, those events get gasps and thunderous applause over the most basic features that competitors have had for a while.
For the first time ever I feel like I just wasted my time watching an Apple product announcement. I'm not saying those products are bad or are poorly engineered or anything like that. I'm just saying the products they showed off today aren't anything I would want.
I have an iPhone 7 Plus and comparing it to the iPhone 11 versions I don't see anything in the latter that I'd upgrade for. The best I could come up with would maybe be the watch but that's only because I have a Series 1 that is probably on its last legs. If I'm being honest, however, when the Series 1 goes I'll probably go back to my $30 Timex. $5/mo for Arcade and TV+ each is a great price but then again, at least for the latter, I'd be paying a little over a third of the price of Netflix for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the content. Sure they'll be adding more but nothing they have now really gets me excited to watch.
I used to so look forward to product announcements because it was like being a kid again. Looking through the Christmas catalog at all the things I'd love to have. Imagining how my life might be better "if I just had that new iPhone!" Now? Meh.
I'm genuinely sad. I feel like it's the end of a very long era.
This is a very routine reply around here to every new iPhone announcement. Would you perhaps be able to elaborate on the features or improvements you did want to see but didn't?
I mean I have an iPhone 8 and what I see are:
- An edge-to-edge screen
- Longer battery life
- Faster processors
- Improved cameras (don't care much myself but it is still improved)
- Updated Wifi and LTE technologies (not sure how much hype that is)
- More durable (apparently) and more water resistant (at least compared to my 8)
- Multiple wireless headphone support (not sure I need this either but it is still a feature others will use)
I don't need to upgrade for any of these things, which is probably a good thing in terms of e-waste, but it is still definitely a clear upgrade from my current phone.
I can't believe we don't have higher refresh rates on iPhones yet. Apple got user experience with touch screens better then anyone else when the iPhone originally launched. Apple brought it to iPad, i'd like to see it in iPhone.
It's absurd Apple is selling "Pro" phones without refresh rates over 60. What year is it? 2016? A whole bunch of phone manufacturers are making 90+ hz screens.
Is it? This is literally the first time in my life I’ve ever heard someone say they wanted a higher refresh rate on their phone.
It's a "nice to have" feature. The problem, I think, is that the 11 Pro still has its very high asking price and is missing a bunch of "nice to haves". Things I was hoping for:
- USB-C charging
- 5G (for futureproofing, more than anything)
- High refresh rate screen
- Refreshed/less dated looking design (that notch has aged very poorly, regardless of the tech they squeeze into it)
- Larger default storage
- No touch ID/in screen fingerprint reader
None of those missing features are deal breakers, but without all of them it makes this phone seem iterative and a difficult sell - especially since it seems likely/is rumoured that a lot of them will come next year.
Honestly, I would have never actually noticed if someone had not told me. Perhaps I'm just getting old.
Would 90hz use more battery? When they talked about the always-on watch screen, I think one of the things they said was it slowed down its refresh rate to 1 hz. I don't know anything about if that saves power, but maybe?
This is for HMD / VR right?
They're saving that for next year :^)
They're saving everything for next year.
But I hate playing this waiting game...
I honestly can't put my finger on it. All those features you listed are great but none of them make me WANT that device. I used to want the new product they announced as soon as they showed it off. Maybe when I hold one in my hands that will change.
I somewhat have to agree on the "I used to want the new product as soon as it was shown off" bit. I mean to be clear there are some nice improvements on the iPhone, and it packs a hell of a punch compared to previous versions.
For me, it was how the announcements were made, they did seem to just feel like they had a massive "Wow" factor.
Even way back on the first iPhone announcement - When Steve was on stage and talking about the Palm and Blackberry devices having "physical keyboards", and that he had merged it all with the iPod with touch screens, to me that seemed like a massive jump. (OK I admit, at the time I was very much in the camp of "my Blackberry's keyboard is the finest!", but I watch the announcement back again... there was a very Steve Jobs finesse to the whole thing!).
The more recent announcements have kinda been a bit "meh", and I think maybe it's just that - I think a new type of device that has not been thought about, would bring back the "Wow" factor again.
I think, just for me anyway, that jumping over the releases (so skip a release and upgrade), I see more of a jump, than say if I was going between each version.
Anyway, my thoughts - and I don't know - maybe others see the same with the announcements not quite as they used to be - due to the slowness of "upgrades" to the product.
I have to agree. The upgraded camera is enough to get me to want to switch, but the keynote itself was rather dull. I generally enjoy the Apple launch events, but they’ve been sliding lately and this just made me feel “that was a waste of time to watch”.
> I used to want the new product they announced as soon as they showed it off.
Maybe you’ve grown up some since then? New phones are fun gadgets, but in the end, it’s just a phone.
It's also because the smartphone became mature. Many of the earlier iPhones had gigantic deltas: 3G, Retina + front-facing camera, Touch ID/secure enclave, > 4 inch display.
Now (or at least for now) the changes have become more iterative. The delta between several generations are still nice, but between individual generations are less enticing to immediately upgrade.
In the end this is not bad. Upgrading a still perfectly working product every 1 or 2 years is quite insane and taxing for the environment. A lot of credit should go to Apple for maintaining iOS support for old iPhones. This makes it possible for people to keep their phones longer or hand them down. Or for people with lower incomes to buy older generations and still get upgrades.
Of course, slower upgrade cycles are bad for manufacturers. So it's smart of Apple to increase revenue through services (Apple Music, Arcade, Apple TV+, iCloud Storage), rather than forcing their customers to upgrade perfectly-fine devices.
I can put my finger on it, literally, I love the fingerprint sensor for Apple Pay. I see my wife trying to use face-id for it and it seems very convoluted. Until someone shows me a simple a gesture as holding out my phone with my thumb on the fingerprint sensor, I don't have any want for a replacement for my 8.
Same. I far prefer the fingerprint sensor to Face ID.
Watch is really really nice.
I still have an iPhone 7 so I am in the same boat as you, but don't you just double tap the power button for Apple Pay on FaceID devices? That's the same way you do it with TouchID, except you are using a different button.
One big problem with the fingerprint sensor: It's thrown off by even a minor amount of moisture.
During winter I can't get fingerprint sensors to work on my fingers :(
> one of them make me WANT that device
You could have said the same about your iPhone 7. What features of the 7 made you WANT to switch compared to earlier models?
Well, I actually needed it. I jumped into a pool with my 6S in my pocket. Other than that, you make a fair point.
The problem is that the improvement of the first iPhone compared to what came before was like 1/x where x is a very small, close to zero number, while the subsequent releases are like 8/7 or 6/5. And to top it off they cost over $1k, which makes it a hard sell for me.
The rumored folding iPhone would have been the wow-factor even if Samsung failed already in their first attempt. I'm not sure how it makes sense for someone to ask people what they would have been looking for to make the announcement worthwhile. Are you hiring?
"People don’t know what they want until you show it to them."
I'm still on my iPhone 6, and I am not going to get the 11 either, in fact I have been dabbling with LineageOS on a Xiaomi Pocophone F1 as a second travel phone.
What would make me "upgrade" (not sure if I can really call that an upgrade in the absence of a headphone port).
2. 5G support using a single-chip like the Qualcomm Snapdragon X55 baseband chipset (not a separate 4g and 5G chip as with the X50)
3. No more stupid notch
Nice to have:
4. Some sort of anti-slip ridges or grip milled into the casework
5. Getting TouchID back
6. No more stupid lens bump
For me, the must haves are:
1. Headphone jack. Absolute MUST for any sort of music recording (lag, quality) and long distance running (battery life).
2. TouchID. My wife has FaceId and I hate it so much.
Everything else I can live with or without.
I’m still on my 6s+ for those reasons, and it’s sad. Nobody would NOT buy the latest iPhone if it had those things. But a non-zero population doesn’t buy it bc it lacks them. Just silly.
iPhone 5 SE.
Headphone jack: Check.
No FaceID: Check.
Actually fits in my hand and I can reach any part of the screen with my thumb: Check.
I guess it's not a "fast" smartphone anymore but... it's definitely Fast Enough.
This is exactly the case for me too, I love my 6S+. My only problem is that the battery is starting to die. Now I would just replace the battery and stick with it but some years ago I dropped the phone and the screen shattered.
You can't see the cracks in normal head on operation and there are no usage issues but I think it would mean that I'd have to have the screen replaced to replace the battery. At some point this is not economically good sense.
I can easily afford an new iPhone every year but I want a headphone socket for use with Rosetta Stone. When I use my headphones wirelessly with it it switches to a headset profile (with an annoying beep) and the sound quality drop to that of a headset before it switch back to audio profile (with another annoying beep).
Apple's solutions things like audio in the new iPhones seems half baked. Using a 3.5mm headphone lead with the same Bose QC35s everything works perfectly with clear sound at all times.
Also FaceId won't work when sitting in the charging cubbyhole of my car, TouchId does.
A new screen is about $200 and a battery about $70 or so. It’s not even about 25% of a new iPhone, and it gives you many more years of use.
In the UK a new screen is £166. A new battery is £49 a new iphone 8 (without trade in) is £479 which is somewhat closer to 45%.
That’s not a clear cut win to me.
Same phone here, for the same reasons. It still does everything I want, as quickly as I want. It’s actually a little mind boggling to me that they have nearly doubled the version number without adding anything at all that I find compelling.
> I'm still on my iPhone 6, and I am not going to get the 11 either
The cost of going from a 6 year upgrade cycle to a 5 year upgrade cycle is something like 12 cents per day. Even if you're not entirely happy with the current phones, at some point waiting to upgrade is a net negative if you actually cost it out and compare it rationally to your utility curve.
Its 2019 and Apple is still milking their largest subset of buyers on the Lightning tax. In my opinion Apple has some fantastic engineering still happening but the blatant disregard of USB-C shows the true motives. While I understand there are likely challenges with switching the iPhone Pro doesn't fit, at all, with the connectivity solutions in the MacBook Pro or iPad Pro line. Its really unfortunate a lot of what Apple showed today are derivatives of things Android manufacturers have been doing for years. Then again there's nothing to be upset about, the majority of this was public for quite a while.
Keep in mind USB-C came to Android on the Nexus line in October of 2015.
The thing is a lot of Apple product owners have a lot of Lightning cables and chargers already. For them, they're not paying any sort of tax. Changing to USB-C would be a tax for these people as they'd have to buy all new cables.
Yes, in a tech forum the majority of us have many USB-C devices. But I personally don't have that critical mass of USB-C devices compared with Lightning or microUSB.
I'd buy this if Apple didn't start doing USB-C on their computers 3-4 years ago, If USB-C isn't where you want to go as Apple, fine, but be consistent across the product lines.
You can't power a laptop from a Lightning cable. Lightning came out 7 years ago to replace the 30-pin connector.
It makes sense for the laptops to replace their proprietary power ports with USB-C but they'd need a time machine to be consistent across product lines and not screw somebody over.
Lightning tax? Have you tried finding charging options for USB-C after forgetting yours in an airport yet?
Every device I've bought in the last couple of years has USB-C. Most devices powered externally today, in the tech field have gone to USB-C. I'm not sure what airports you traverse but I've yet to be in an airport in the last two years that doesn't sell some sort of USB-C charger. That and since most all of my devices charge via that method that's what I mainly carry.
What I mean by Lightning tax is the literal Lightning tax. Lightning is a proprietary connector that needs to be licensed by Apple and of which Apple makes revenue from.  So by Apple keeping it around on their flagship device Apple continues to profit from accessories continuing to be made.
I'm curious why you think it's great for Apple buyers that tote MacBook Pro, iPad Pro and iPhone to need two types of cable for charging and connectivity?
Remember FireWire? It was great for it's time but saw it's day well before Apple finally dropped it. Lightning has seen it's fate. A flagship phone, with the price Apple commands, should have a current generation port.
I’ve had phones with microUSB, USB-C and Lightning within the past 5 years. Oddly enough I still have a few things which take a microUSB cable including a book light.
At the end of the day, having different cables is a slight inconvenience but not terrible. I know with both USB-C and Lightning I’m tired of cleaning the connectors. I’m not going to say I want them to go away, but Qi charging ftw! Renders this entire debate almost entirely moot, and lint isn’t an issue.
Replacing one annoying connector with another isn’t an upgrade, it’s a lateral move at best, and a downgrade for people with iPhones today that are well invested in Lightning peripherals.
USB-C is on its best day, equal to Lightning for the purposes of shifting electrons, and is in some ways worse because the design of the connector is more fragile on the female end, I.e. the phone, rather than the more easily replaced cable. The day Apple switches over to USB-C is the day the connector is meaningless. It will probably happen, but today is not that day.
> USB-C is on its best day, equal to Lightning for the purposes of shifting electrons
I haven't seen exact specs for a Lightning cable but I've seen it suggested that it tops out at 12W.
In theory USB-C can shift 100W (20V * 5A) so, again in theory, it would allow much fast charging if the phone could support that.
Careful what you whish for. I can totally understand the desire for uniform and interchangable power adaptors and ports, but USB-C on my S8 wore off within half a year, to the point that to "take" and speed-load, I had to ram it into the plug several times in succession, greatly contributing to wear.
Check if there was lint in the receiving area. This will cause chargers not to take.
I did, and had it even blown out, to no avail.
I was hoping their "One more thing" would be tracking tags with precise positioning and an AR viewer to see exactly where something is placed in the world.
It should still be coming soon as code was found for it in the OS. It will display a red, IT (horror movie) style, floating red balloon where your lost item is.
They might announce this later — I think that tracking AR tags will end up being huge.
Don't you mean "One more camera"?!?
Anti slip would be amazing. Without a case my iPhone X slips on every surface, including my hands.
The notch isn't so bad, I'll fullscreen videos and don't even notice it.
I solved the too-slippery case on my Windows Phone by putting some clear skateboard tape on the back edges.
I should do this on my XR...
Sounds like a good way to sand a hole in your pants.
You would think so. :) But I wore slacks back then not jeans (office dress code) so there wasn't a lot of pressure on your pocket lining.
The thing I was 100% hoping for but did not expect at all was a new haptic feedback engine. I think the next big thing Apple could improve would be localized feedback. I want to be able to feel a button when I drag a finger across the screen, for example.
There were zero rumors of this, it was just wishful thinking, but man if I didn't dream...
I'm also still waiting for this: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421191/a-touch-screen-wit...
That’d be really cool to have, especially on a haptic keyboard! Unfortunately Apple seems averse to the idea of haptic feedback on a keyboard.
On a similar note, I’ve been disappointed in the removal of 3D Touch. I understand that it adds complexity to the display layer, but replacing 3D Touch with long-presses doesn’t really cut it for me
3D Touch was a horrible interface mechanism.
Perhaps it was horrible, but it allowed me to jump directly into specific features of an app. With only a bit of practice. Now you need to wait for the long press or first start the app and something. Sending a message or mail to favourites now became slower.
iPhones at this stage feel like cameras first and the rest is standard. I’m also on a 7 Plus. This iteration feels far enough ahead of mine to be worth considering.
The only other update I want is more battery life. They’re thin enough; make them a third thicker with all of that used for battery. Or just thicker so the new camera is flush against the back casing.
> Or just thicker so the new camera is flush against the back casing.
SERIOUSLY! Why does the <1mm thinner matter so much to them to have the fugly camera bump instead? That space surely could be used by a slightly bigger battery if nothing else.
I think they designed it to be used with a case. It feels badly designed without one because it can’t even lie flat on a table without wobbling, but with a case everything is flush.
In the same situation, my launch model 7 Plus still reports 92% battery health and has generally been a good device. The XR didn't interest me, but the 11 has my attention a little more.
I've been hoping for something like this for a long while now:
Is there any use case where WiFi + Bluetooth hotspot makes more sense than enabling each separately. Bluetooth is a huge battery drain. To avoid this as it is now, I have to select Wifi + Bluetooh, wait for my device to connect via WiFi then go back to settings and disable bluetooth. If I forgot to do so, my battery is gone in a few hours.
With battery life being such a priority, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why this hasn't already been implemented.
In the general population, enabling bluetooth is not a battery drain. Quite the contrary; having it turned off tends to result in worse battery life.
If you are reliably experiencing something you can clearly pin on Bluetooth, you either have very unusual usage patterns, or are experiencing a severe bug.
> In the general population, enabling bluetooth is not a battery drain. Quite the contrary; having it turned off tends to result in worse battery life.
Having bluetooth turned off results in _worse_ battery life? How so?
Disabled Bluetooth in certain decision trees leads to spinning up more expensive radios, when passive Bluetooth would have worked effectively, for less power.
Can you give a concrete example? This seems counter to my personal experience.
I'm genuinely curious how WiFi + Bluetooth enabled could consume less power than WiFi alone?
The only time I use Bluetooth is for AirDrop. And that requires turning personal hotspot off.
I have got a 7.
I don't want the screen going to the edge.
I want the fingerprint thing, not FaceID.
The rest are nice I guess, but those two things are the sticking points.
By all accounts the phones are amazing and the new video shooting modes are a big step forward. That said after going back to the iPhone se recently I realise that it's the sweet spot phone for me. It does everything I want my phone to do and doesn't feel bloated by loads of amazing tech I'll never use once the novelty wears off.
>I don't need to upgrade for any of these things, which is probably a good thing in terms of e-waste, but it is still definitely a clear upgrade from my current phone.
I don't think anyone doubts the "clear upgrade" part. It's the "need" part we're talking about, here.
I actually don't want an edge-to-edge screen or FaceID, though, and 5S is already a bit bigger than I'd like. So no, it's not a clear upgrade. I'd probably grin and bear it, but it does feel like people don't sell phone's I'd actually like anymore.
> enabling an unprecedented leap in battery life to easily get through the day
Sic.. they don’t even really try to sell a longer battery life, they just are content of getting through the day
Most of the things you listed are evolutionary improvements rather than revolutionary improvements. None of them are radical bold new concepts.
Biggest asks for me are putting back touch ID (ideally under screen but on back is fine too), headphone jack, removing the notch, installing custom APKs. They have the means to do all of these things, but don't for ideological reasons that only they seem to hold.
A few that I was hoping for:
- a larger screen option. 6.5 isn’t enough
- a mini pencil to use on that larger screen
- some type of integrated headset or device to use the new iPhone as a VR/AR headset
- Better battery life. I know they announced this, but the batteries need to be 10-100x better. I can’t use my phone all day without it dying. I should be able to use it for a week without dying
Thought of a few more that would have been good:
- a flip phone option, something really innovative (not a joke)
- a much smaller version of the iPhone. Like an iPhone nano
- a gaming version of the iPhone that had a gpu and could run steam
I know some of these sound like science fiction, but that’s kind of the point for Apple events. The iPod, iPhone, and iPad were all next level. What have we gotten from Apple in the last 5 years? Headphones? A notification machine for your wrist?
An iPhone with removable handlebars that can transform into a PSP (with paddles, buttons and joysticks) and play games of similar quality to the Switch. The handlebars should be wireless so I can play games with my friends. I should be able to use Apple TV or screen mirror to transfer the games to the TV or to a projector or wireless to any display really.
My friends with regular iPhones should be able to stream the games I’m playing if I give them permission, and if we’re in the same room we should be able to play party games easily with less resource intensive (ie score displays or trivia questions or whatever) able to be displayed on their devices. Or they should be able to use their iPhones as 3rd or 4th or ... Nth touch screen virtual controllers for multiplayer.
Because it’s a phone, it has a touchscreen for super fast data entry of my online accounts or whatever, 4G and awesome cameras, gyro and accelerometer as well.
Now you have my attention.
> Better battery life.
That is the only thing I want; sure there are good feature phones (I never use my iPhone for normal cellular calling) that have long battery life, but I want a high spec smart phone with at least 1 whole day (let’s say 24 hrs; when travelling, and that is often, I usually spend whole days working only on my phone; browsing,
dictating, writing and doing conference calls; it is just empty after half a day like that) while using it the entire day. I do not need it to be so thin; I need it to last all day while using it with screen and 4g on.
I even tried out Oukitel monster phones; the k10000 first version actually made this but was bad otherwise (way too heavy, any kind of drop would shatter the screen; not very good specs besides the battery) while the next version did not make it (really cannot understand why).
So with my 7 plus I now carry an external battery and am contemplating the Chinese approach to battery life; carry 2 phones instead. I really wish they could fix this.
The watch helps when not travelling; it allows me to leave my phone off for long stretches but it it not an ideal solution.
> iPhone nano
I did not try the latest watches but do they not have a SIM and basically are a tiny iPhone?
> a much smaller version of the iPhone. Like an iPhone nano
It exists, it’s called the Apple Watch cellular edition.
A lot of that is just technological maturity, I think. When smartphones first arrived, there were many, many, obvious upgrades that would make the experience better for the user of the device.
This is the golden age of any technology; the lack of something great, and seeing it approach from the horizon, then repeating with the next thing.
Smartphones definitely seem to be converging on a form factor and a feature set. This is what happened to "feature" phones that we all had just before the smartphone became available. Do you remember any features you were dying to have in your next flip-phone? I don't. They had matured.
What will happen after smartphones? It's anyone's guess, and I'd say that whoever is going to invent that new device already has the idea and is trying to get it developed.
Besides just incremental changes, what could people possibly expect from the next version of a smartphone, especially with the technology that we currently have?
I get that 5-10 years ago it was a totally different field, when technology wasn't matured, and everything they announced was something groundbreaking.
But now, besides from the yearly camera and chip improvements, I honestly can't think of anything I would want in a smartphone.
For me, it would be the phone replacing my laptop and tablet with docking stations or foldable screens and adaptative OS (like Samsung Dex). Phones are powerful enough to do that.
I also imagined a portable docking station with just a screen, maybe some battery and something to attach your phone to transform into a tablet.
The main reason is that I don't like managing different devices, installing different apps, using different OS, I just want to customize my working environment once.
That or having a single OS that works on different devices and synchronizes cleverly every settings, installed apps configuration in the cloud and adapt them to the device.
It’s something I’ve been wanting too. I use a desktop for serious work, tablet for casual browsing and game, and then a smartphone for when I’m on the go and messaging.
I would love if I could just have one device, and different adaptors for different situation. Although I’m not sure if current smartphones are powerful enough for pro-desktop users.
Obviously the OS would have to adapt as well, and not just the smartphone OS scaled up.
When feature phones were mature, people said the exact same thing.
"This has everything I want."
That is when market opportunities appear in front of those with good ideas.
Correct, and if you understand that, that's fine. I'm also waiting for the next thing after smartphones, but until then, I'm not really expecting anything other that incremental updates.
And there is nothing wrong with that expectation at all.
Who knows when the next thing is coming? No one; so plan as if it isn't.
Since you're on an iPhone 7: The jump to FaceID and home-buttonless UI is actually probably bigger than you think. The jump from 7 to X/XR/11 is going to be much bigger than, say, 7 to 8.
By removing the home button, Apple turned iPhone into a device completely controlled by gestures. It's arguably the biggest UX change since the first iPhone, and one that was surprisingly unreported at the time. It makes the phone feel more cohesive, and the initial impression, once you learn the app switching gestures, is vaguely futuristic. FaceID works great, too, and certainly feels futuristic, though on its own it's not really a game changer. It's the integration into the buttonless UX that makes it a worthwhile feature.
(I actually wish there was also a fingerprint sensor, because the FaceID doesn't work well for contactless terminal such as the ones you find in stores -- you have to first hold the phone near the reader, then pick a card, then hold the phone at the right angle for it to recognize your face, then bring it back to the reader. Not ideal, though someone claimed the new phones would do FaceID at steeper angles, so maybe it's gotten better.)
I use my iPhone X regularly at contactless terminals at stores and on the bus. The trick is to double click the lock button first, select a card if you want, then hold it by the reader.
I don’t have any problems with FaceID — it’s more reliable and easier than TouchID for me. I live in a rainy place, though. Obviously a YMMV situation.
With TouchID do you just put your finger on the home button and hold it by the reader?
Interesting, I thought I'd tried that before and it didn't work because it wasn't near a reader. I'll try again, thanks!
I'd argue that it's still a slightly more complicated interaction than with TouchID, though, requiring a bit more mental preparation, perhaps.
As for TouchID: Yes, that's how it works. It's a more fluid action because typically you'll have added your thumb as the fingerprint, and it's easy to hold the phone with your thumb on the home button while holding it near the reader.
I have also been doing it this way, until someone told me that you can show your face to phone first and then put it next to the reader. Try it next time, I hope it will save you some seconds.
I wholeheartedly agree. Their problem is in multiple areas: product, design, and presentation.
First and most noticeably they no long have a "master of ceremony" someone that is not only excited by the products but also enthusiastic to show them off to you. This is exemplified with no more "One More thing..."
Second, their designs are old and tired. I don't know if Ive ran out of Braun/Rams designs to borrow from or if the execs fear any major design changes, but Apple has become too comfortable with their design language and unfortunately they are starting to show a lack of taste (looking at you over-sized camera bump)
Third, the products have matured. Apple hasn't really done anything new or exciting with their lineup. Gone are the days you expected to see a new product that is lifestyle changing. Now days you might see a spec bump, or a change in product to make it thinner, but nothing that really stands out as "Wow I've gotta have that". The thing I remember most from the last two announcements were features targeting "influencers" - Animoji's and "Slofies".
Finally, I don't feel apple understands the waning in their product appeal. Be it on price or function, I see a lot less Apple products at coffee shops and colleges these days.
This never happened to you with the past few presentations? I basically haven't seen a new feature I genuinely need since the iPhone 6 (or whatever Mac/iPad was announced since then, for that matter).
Smartphones are pretty much done. The one thing I'd upgrade for is apparently not possible with current technology: A display that works perfectly in sunlight, being illuminated by it instead of trying to compete with it. Other than that? I can't even think of something!
I would give my left arm for an e-ink phone that had Google Assistant or Siri for navigation, and worked with Android Auto / Carplay, an awesome email client, some chat apps, and a good keyboard.
It'd be much easier to use my phone for what I want to use my phone for -- productivity and being connected (and occasionally looking things up online). Instead, my phone successfully hypnotizes me with it's bright colors and videos. More and more, I find myself using my phone not because I actually want to, but because it sneak attacked me with some notification that sucked me into doing something that's just wasting my time.
Also, with e-ink, the battery should last at least a couple of days. And, to your point, you could use it under any lighting conditions -- at least I can with my Kindle Paperwhite.
iPhone 6s user here. Why would I ever change phone? It still works perfectly well.
They need some fresh blood in the C ranks. The presenters themselves don't look like they themselves are actually excited about things they are presenting.
It doesn't help that they have clearly filled the audience with Apple employees who were instructed to whoop and holler and when to do it. I understand the motivations for doing so. A product announcement like this would otherwise be attended by a majority surly journalists, too busy taking notes to exhibit much excitement. But at this point, the whooping and hollering come across as extremely fake--too much so for a company like Apple, in my opinion. I think I'd rather the employees just clap. At least during WWDC there are genuine fans in the audience.
I don't know whether the applause is some kind of fake/contrived strategy. Maybe it is. But I am sure the launch is an exciting day for everyone at Apple. The employees in the audience have spent the past year(s) working on this stuff, and are finally getting to see the result. They're seeing their work in the spotlight, surrounded by the press. Wouldn't you feel special and give a hoot when your little contribution gets a shout out?
I suspect their strategy of rolling out a different speaker every 10 sentences might be an attempt at scouting for execs who can excite an audience. To whatever degree Apple is exciting anymore, that is.
I'm always wondering what people expect from those "Apple Keynote". Is anyone actually watching Keynotes from other companies? Samsung, LG, Volkswagen or any large companies in the world? No, they don't because it is boring and made with medias as target audience.
I never understood the need for so many people to tune into those Apple live keynotes. It is of course all marketing and slideware.
I feel like it's the end of a very long era.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that today’s hardware is not changing as fast as it was 10 years ago (or even 5 years ago).
Looking at the quality and size of devices now, I can’t imagine much will be different in 15 years until we get to a major re-invention of things; I.e. holographic devices or implanted smartphones, things that you dream about. The screen quality is just so great already that I can’t imagine it being 1000x better - like you might compare an iPhone to a mid-90s gameboy screen or early Nokia candy-bar phone displays & UI.
What can we possibly expect from new devices besides more storage, slightly more pixels, and slightly more powerful processing?
I sort of feel like this, but chalk it up to me getting old and curmudgeonly. You kids with your fancy three cameras and gamey movie thingy, get off my lawn. Back in my day we had a phone with a browser and email and Netflix and were happy about it.
I browsed the responses to the parent comment looking to see if anyone had presented this angle.
The first iPhone at "everyone had" came out a little over 11 years ago.
I'd hazard a guess most people who were in their ~mid 20's back in 2008 is now in their ~mid 30's, and have probably lost a lot interest in "new and shiny thing".
I'm swiftly approaching 40, and what gets me excited has changed dramatically in the past decade.
We'll see how long the line up is on release day, that'll give as an indicator of how out of touch us old folk are.
1. iPhone 3G available in 22 countries for as compared the original iPhone available in only 7 countries, according to the Wikipedia articles for each
You are probably an outlier in the smart phone or smart watch business
Hasn’t every iPhone just been a speeds and camera improvement over the previous? With a few random things like TouchId, FaceId, and 3D Touch... but most of what matters is speed and camera.
Welcome to the club!
Now I can have my other number without worrying about green bubbles. Instant clout. I'll pay for that: the device and additional number monthly.
Goodbye Google Voice/Skype numbers! Well I'll keep gvoice for a third number for shenanigans, like craigslist replies
Local bug men saddened because consumer life does not bring joy anymore.
More at 6.
Year after year of new iPhone's premieres I wonder for how long I'm going to use my iPhone SE - 3,5years has gone and nothing new for me on the horizon :(
I don't care about missing jack, USB-C, cameras and other things - just make it smaller and it will fine by me.
I feel the same, I’ve had an SE since it launched. The devices released since then are just too big. I was hoping we would see something new in that form factor during today’s event.
How's the SE treating you in 2019? Trying to switch from Pixel to iPhone, but don't want to drop significant money until USB-C, which is rumored in 2020. Figured an SE might be good for me until then
Get an iPhone 8 instead, probably the best value out there for iPhones.
If you are worried about shelling out money, remember that an iPhone 8 isn't $449, it's $449 minus whatever you sell it for in a year (probably not much less). And it's even less if you just buy it used or Apple refurbished in the first place.
The iPhone SE works fine but the screen size is too small for many apps that get scrunched up pretty badly. You’re using a screen size that a very small fraction of Apple users are still using, which means app developers don’t care to make it work nicely for you.
The camera is bad by modern standards, I can see a big difference even for small 4x6 prints, and Touch ID is the slower 1st generation. It's just really old hardware all around.
On the plus side, it has good battery life, a headphone jack, and it's still an iPhone running full iOS.
> Get an iPhone 8 instead, probably the best value out there for iPhones.
I have an SE and love it, but this. However, consider the deals out there for something like the 7. Metro PCS has the iPhone 7 for $50, I'm sure there are comparable deals out there too.
IMO MVNO phones take too long to unlock, that’s a big gripe of mine on deals like that.
I’d also be worried about the 7 audio IC issue.
There are definitely trade-offs to save $400
Why an iPhone 8 over a 7? Is the performance much different?
Price wise an iPhone 7 Renewed on Amazon is only ~$250-260 (128gb) versus an iPhone 8 which is around ~$400 (64gb).
In addition to Dangus' comment with iPhone 8 you'll also get the same CPU that powers the iPhone X, which will be more than fine for quite a few more years. Furthermore I'm confident it will be supported with major software updates for a long time. It is the sweet spot for customers on a low budget or looking for a small phone. The iPhone SE, as much as I like to form factor, isn't a good new purchase at this point.
My understanding is that the iPhone 7 has a few more common hardware issues than the iPhone 8. Apparently a lot of iPhone 7 models are affected by messed up speakers and mics, the audio IC defect. Kind of an important feature.
I’ll admit that’s a pretty big price difference but I wonder if that has to do with the 7’s hardware issues making it a phone to stay away from. Or maybe it’s just old and that’s why it’s cheap.
Ah, maybe hardware issues. I will say, I have an 8 and the camera randomly broke on mine, and when I talked to someone who repairs them, she said that lately many of the 8 cameras have been breaking.
That said, the repair was fairly easy, it was a $30 camera and 20 minutes to repair it.
I had to replace my SE battery earlier this year (well, I didn't absolutely need to, I did it because I intend to get another two years out if it). Otherwise mine is still chugging along perfectly well.
Software wise it's a perfectly fine device, definitely some limitations, but only because the processor is a four+ year old design. Some SPA or otherwise heavy webpages cause it to choke (ex: it hates USAToday), but 99% of what I try to do works great. Per Apple and MacRumours, the SE will get iOS 13. No idea how well that will run, but we'll see.
If you can get one in good shape to hold you over you'll probably be happy with it.
Yeah I replaced mine at the Apple Store this year (Apple covered it). Now I get well over a day's battery on it, amazing. Granted, I intentionally avoid installing hefty apps so that would also help achieve this kind of battery life.
Before that it would die in ~2hrs and instantly die in high heat.
I have an SE still, it works completely fine. I don't really use my phone for much besides maps/social media/web browsing so I never felt like i needed a more powerful device. The camera is great.
I have an SE running iOS 13 beta and it’s great. Some functionally will of course be disabled , but it feels modern.
Works about fine, also just makes the cut for iOS 13 support.
There were rumors that they are going to release the new SE in 2020.
Yes but if it is really based on the iPhone 8 size I'm not interested.
Same. Headphone jack, the internals of an iPhone 7, tiny form-factor, best design (IMO) – they can pry my iPhone SE out of my cold, dead hands.
I could be wrong, but I think it's the same internals of a 6S. I have a 6S and it still feels plenty capable.
It is rumored that next year's X/XS/11 Pro replacement will be smaller.
That camera cluster gives me trypophobia vibes. I feel like some sort of robot insect monster is going to hatch and take over my brain. (and/or this iPhone is an infant robot overlord)
Another iteration of "why bother" gadgets which is definitely cool but do we all really need one? I expect the fad to break in the next decade.
I am visiting from the future - an hour down the Trypophobia rabbithole - to caution against ever viewing any Mango Worm related web content.
It is reminding of the early 2000s razor blade wars, I think we are on for some fun!
Judging from other responses here I am in the minority, but I like the camera bump design. The triangular geometry makes sense if you want to have all sensors equidistant to a central point. This also may result in some simplifications (or even optimizations) in sensor fusion algorithms. Putting three cameras in a line makes less sense to me.
I don't think we're arguing the functionality of the design; this is purely based on the phone's aesthetics. (And, for those of us with trypophobia, our opinion on the design is likely due to a deeply rooted instinctual and evolutionary reaction.)
This was my first thought, and then seeing multiple phones in the mockup didn't help. How did this get approved?
Yeah. Feel like neither Jobs or Jony Ive would've let that camera cluster happen. It's the ugliest thing I've ever seen on any smartphone.
Absolutely, I found the backside of iPhone 11 Pro horrendous. It's really difficult to look at it.
Some studies show that as much as 16% of people experience some level of trypophobia... My spouse has it pretty bad and confirmed it triggers her. Even to me there's something a little disturbing about it.
Right it makes me vaguely uneasy.
On the other hand, I like the weirdness of it.
Didn't view the page until your comment... definitely approaching lotus seed level. If it gives you a deeply unsettling feeling, you may have it.
Looks kinda like an electric shaver to me.
I have that issue with it. The images of the phone make me physically uncomfortable
First the new Mac Pro and now this. I guess Apple is all about circles this year :P
You must hate the Nike+ watch bands... Apple seems to really like the circles.
> That camera cluster gives me trypophobia vibes.
I don't suffer from trypophobia, yet that camera arrangement is creepy looking. Poor design choice by Apple.
It's the bug-eye phone.
Reminds me of the brain bug from Starship Troopers
Indeed. Reminded me of when my brother got Pitted keratolysis. I can't unsee that.
A week ago we discussed Om Malik's article "Camera sales are falling sharply". I am one of those people who now does not upgrade his camera, nor use it any more, as much as I like it. I use my smartphone, albeit with some aftermarket Moment wide- and fish-eye lenses on it.
This phone makes total sense to me. The money I used to spend on cameras and lenses will be captured by the smartphone companies.
Well, for the casual user i agree, but wasn't that the case for a long time already? If you try shooting something that is quite far away or lightning conditions not optimal, a proper camera is still on a different level than any smartphone camera.
Absolutely, a real camera is on a different level.
Photography is so pervasive now, so much a part of everyday life. For the casual to low level enthusiast, carrying a "Pro" smartphone is good enough and more convenient.
Computational photography is also a thing.
The iPhones 11 are on the front page of DPReview, which is interesting.
This thread needs to lighten up. The 11 is an incremental improvement - is that so wrong? Who still upgrades their phone every year anyway?
I bought my iPhone 8 two years ago thinking of it as a 5 year investment.
In fairness they did incremental upgrades 2 years in a row, which they didn't used to do. But yeah, cycles are naturally slowing. Supposedly they have big things coming in 2020; USB-C, a whole new redesign, etc. I'll still probably stick with my XS, though.
I'd kill for a flagship iPhone with plain rectangular screen (no notch or rounded corners!) and with an USB-C port. If it is also vactually rugged then I'll wet myself.
USB-C is just my personal guess. It's been such a glaring, weird omission for years, and between the 11's lightning-to-C cable and the prospect of a redesign, 2020 seems like the perfect opportunity to finally do it.
Xs was incremental improvement, this year people expected more.
I read the announcement and was pretty impressed:
- 20% faster processor
- 4 - 5 hrs better battery life
- 30% faster FaceID (I don't know how slow the previous one was, but I know the speed difference between the TouchID on my iPad Mini 3 and my iPhone 7 makes me love it on the latter and never use it on the former)
- 2000000:1 contrast ratio (!!)
- wide angle and "telephoto" lenses, plus 4k video support, and better low-light imaging
- AI image processing magic
- Dual SIM cards (a must for the Asian market)
- "immersive audio" (this is a maybe: I'll be impressed if a phone can pack speakers that beat my studio headphones, but the 2019 MacBook Pro 15" is 95% as good, so there's a possibility)
- incremental improvements to WiFi and LTE
That all sounds pretty compelling to me. I'm not sure if I want it enough to pay $1000, but this sounds like a pretty solid improvement in pretty much all ways.
Dual SIM came last year, and the 2000000:1 contrast ratio came in 2017. Aside from the third camera, the rest of these really are incremental improvements rather than new features.
I don't think that is a problem mind you. Lots of manufacturers are flinging shit at the wall trying to find the Next Big Thing(TM) in smartphones. I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. Smartphones in general have gotten incredibly good in the last 4-5 years.
> 2000000:1 contrast ratio came in 2017.
That came a hell of a lot longer ago than that. OLED has been on the market since 2010.
We're talking about iPhones specifically.
> 2000000:1 contrast ratio (!!)
What so exciting here? It's OLED. They all have that kind of contrast ratio. The huge number was just mentioned for marketing sake. Your eyes won't know the difference between 200000, 2000000 or Infinity.
While being P3 compliant?
Contrast ratio is just the comparison between the brightest white and the darkest black. All OLED, by virtue of having pure black darks, have infinite contrast ratio. Doesn't matter if it's a good OLED or a shitty one, they all universally have perfect contrast ratio.
iPhone 8 and X were the first iPhones to support DCI-P3 color space.
And 99% were non the wiser or cared.
20% faster processor over what is already the best in the cellphone world. If intel or amd did the same, lot of the same people here would be cheering their hearts out.
Actually 20% cpu improvement would also be a who cares in processors too. 2x is worthy of note maybe.
Look at the history of CPU performance over the past decade. If we were to get a 20% IPC increase in desktop processors it would be a big deal.
Especially YoY, which people forget. AMD currently seems to be pulling that off though, thus the big hype.
- "immersive audio" (this is a maybe: I'll be impressed if a phone can pack speakers that beat my studio headphones, but the 2019 MacBook Pro 15" is 95% as good, so there's a possibility)
I can't figure out any way that this is not going to be mid-side "wide" mode, from speakers on each end when the phone is at landscape.
> Dual SIM cards (a must for the Asian market)
Haven't heard of that. Why is it a must?
They got used to dual sim in android devices. There are multiple use cases like keeping one number for office and can turn it off after office hours and another sim for personal life all in one device. Another use is have data plan in a cheaper provider and voice with another with better reliability or coverage etc, yet another is have a sim with international roaming or local one without using a separate phone when traveling!
Dual SIM is amazing for travel, and the only reason I upgraded to the Xs last year. I put Verizon on the eSIM and then use prepaid/travel SIMs in the physical port.
One of the benefits is you can keep one number unchanged and keep changing the other sim card when they have good promotion price especially for data.
Extremely popular in SE Asia because of the fragmentation of the mobile phone networks and almost constant data promotion specials.
What zakki said, and also for people who travel somewhat often and need to get sim cards for travel.
Itiis not addual sim cards,but esim and a sim card. Not all markets have operator that can sell esim.
And Xs also had it.
BTW is it dual active or just standby?
An improvement with no real innovation.
> plus 4k video support
iPhones don't already support 4k video? Good Android phones have had 4k cameras for years.
Obviously not a must if they're only adding dual SIMs now.
It's 4k at 60fps with extended dynamic range. If you've experienced HDR/wider color gamuts, then you'll appreciate the distinction.
>iPhones don't already support 4k video?
People say they expect more, but what, exactly? Do people still expect more from a laptop? They're laptops - they've not changed in 15 years. They just get faster, smaller and more easy to break. Phones have caught up. Nothings happening except more megapixels, plus slightly faster CPUs so..i dunno...snapchat loads faster or whatever, or more lenses or whatever, plus the sort of twilight zone $999 = £1049 pricing in the UK. Expect less, from now on, or you'll be disappointed.
> People say they expect more, but what, exactly?
Agreed. At this point the iPhone is basically a slab of glass. The are not many form factor changes to be made except the further shrinking of bezels and the notch. They could swap the back materials or flatten the sides like the iPhone 4, but that's just change to change.
IMO, +4 hours of batter life on the new Pro is a huge deal. Every person I know carries around portable battery packs and is always stressing over battery life. Adding 4 hours (even if it ends up only being 2 in real world) is a bigger deal than probably even the cameras.
> At this point the iPhone is basically a slab of glass. The are not many form factor changes to be made except the further shrinking of bezels and the notch.
You're thinking of that backwards, I think. You don't change the hardware first. You come up with some new software (an OS feature; a library) that requires hardware that isn't already in the phone, and then redesign the phone to fit that new hardware in there. Like with the face sensors, or the ML-model-running cores. The hardware is designed, certainly, but it's designed as an answer to a constraint-satisfaction problem (i.e. a checklist of everything the new model needs to have/do), and big changes in the offered solution only happen when there are big changes in the constraints.
That being said, Apple seems to be lacking, lately, in inventing (or acquiring!) the kind of software features that necessitate new hardware. They're not even first to the Night Mode thing, which would totally have been one of their type of differentiators just a few years ago. Have they lost some critical software-R&D talent or something?
I agree with the OP, there’s only so much you can do with a phone, camera and battery life are one of the remaining things left with scope to improve. Apple are broadening as a company and the iPhone alone doesn’t define them anymore, that coupled with people holding on to phones for longer means innovation will die down.
People say they expect more, but what, exactly?
I don't know about "people," but for one thing they only mentioned privacy in passing. Or how about IOS improvements? The world is probably waiting for ways not to have to touch the screen so much, and in a finger-mouse style. Let's see some cutting edge HCI.
Well it's a hardware event. The software doesn't really have to change in lock-step with the hardware.
> plus the sort of twilight zone $999 = £1049 pricing in the UK
I don’t know what the hell is going on here. Usually the lack of VAT in US prices explains weird conversions, but even factoring that in it comes to £970. Keeping it at £999 would be fine; to put it up by 50 quid is some serious bullshit.
Pound hit a low of 1.1959 a week ago, and The Telegraph noted "there is a risk of sterling falling further". Taking that price gives £1002.42 ((999/1.1959)*1.2), and pricing in a potential drop doesn't seem totally unreasonable.
It’s not just about exchange rate. The cost of doing business in Europe is generally higher than in the USA. Higher taxes, more consumer protections, more employee rights, cost of localization, smaller economies of scale, countless other differences... these all add up to Apple having higher costs in the UK.
It’s not just Apple. Take a look at how AWS prices vary by region for another tech example.
> I don’t know what the hell is going on here.
Hedging their bets against the pound tanking in 7 weeks time ?
I'd think they could buy currency futures or something to hedge against that risk.
Hedging risks costs money, too, statistically.
If the iPhone 6-8 and now the X/XS/11 are anything to go by then I think the days of the tick-tock refreshes are over.
Apple has made it pretty clear they don’t see upgrading their phones every 1-2 years anymore. Personally if my iPhone 7+ hadn’t gone and bricked itself I wouldn’t have bothered trading it in (after replacement under warranty) for the XS. My wife is still rocking an iPhone 7 and I see no reason to upgrade it either. Never in my life until the year before last have I been satisfied to just hold onto a phone, especially after my contract or payment plan has ended.
This is the new “normal”, and everyone except the most enthusiastic of enthusiasts are going to bother buying a new phone more than every 3+ years.
It's exactly like the laptop and desktop refreshes. Nobody who bought a 2016 MacBook Pro has any business buying the 2019 model. The performance gain and overall differences are far too slight for that to matter.
But that doesn't mean you just stop updating your products every year.
All Macbooks after 2016 are simply "no go" because of their broken keyboard.
Then it would be nice if they extended the AppleCare to let us protect the devices as long as Apple expects us to be keeping it.
Apple is on a 3 year cycle now, probably to help accelerate development on their AR project.
Redesign -> CPU leap -> Camera leap
iPhone 6 -> 6S -> 7
iPhone X -> XS -> 11
> Apple is on a 3 year cycle now, probably to help accelerate development on their AR project.
If Apple has made that decision then there's a context which isn't generally appreciated. It's not just that you've stopped buying new phones so Apple needs something else to sell you: it's that AR/VR is more or less inevitably the future mainstream interface of mobile computing. The box-with-a-screen-on-the-side physical UI has hit its limits (this is Amdahl's Law of Mobile UI ;) ), which is also why there's so much interest in trying to make folding screens work.
I think anybody paying attention knew that next years model is where they’re adding 5G and a new design.
Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to redesign this year (kill the dreaded notch) and add 5G next year? That way they can capitalize on early adopters twice, not once.
While I don't disagree with you I do wonder what more could they offer at this point? What are the missing features that everyone expected/needed?
The iPhone is now like Photoshop; it has all the features I've needed and more for at least 3-4 generations now.
Maybe a stripped down iPhone with less features, smaller size and (magically) longer/better battery life would be a better angle for Apple to take at this point?
at least usb 3.0 transfer speed for transferring all those gigabytes of movies because pros won't be editing those on a phone. User would also enjoy faster backups and syncs. Computer vision dev would enjoy streaming video feed realtime with low latency and prototyping algorithm on desktop. One generation of iPad Pro already had usb 3.0 even with lightning connector so I don't see a reason not to get it even if we cannot have usb-c yet in iphones. Even raspberry pi 4 has usb 3.0 - spec that has been realeased in 2010.
I want an iPhone Max that can use Apple Pencil.
But that's just me.
If you don't change the case style, how will anyone know you have the newest model!
but this really was the least exciting iphone keynote ever, which was totally expected, but still disappointing. none of the more interesting rumors came about, like ultra-wideband positioning* and apple tags.
apple product cycles have lengthened, so this was inevitably going to be a lower-the-base-price and harvest-the-late-adopters year for the notch model era. i think apple may even keep the same style next year to introduce 5g (to reduce additional manufacturing challenges) and settle into a 4-year cycle so they can really milk the capex (which is what happened to macbook pros as the product line matured).
i’m still happily using my 6s.
* edit: apparently i missed the part where they talked about the U1 chip in the new iphones, which does the UWB positioning.
2020 iPhone I've read a lot of buzz about being a pretty big release - e.g. https://sea.mashable.com/tech/6142/the-2020-iphone-already-s...
Those tags are going to be a really big deal. I think they may have even upstaged the iPhone if announced today.
It didn't help that the event tag was "By Innovation only"
> This thread needs to lighten up.
Tagline for HN in general.
Could you elaborate on this? It's not that I doubt what you're saying, but some studies would be nice.
> Could you elaborate on this? It's not that I doubt what you're saying, but some studies would be nice.
Lol the irony.
>a 5 year investment.
I hope not...but sure looks that way. Still sporting a 7+
... I'm on the upgrade plan and plan to upgrade every year...
You shouldn't fill an auditorium full of journos and tech bloggers to announce minor iterations of existing products.
It is quite aggressive of apple to physically force all those people to fill that auditorium against their will, isn't it
They made me watch the whole keynote too. If I even tried to look away an iGuard would jab me with his camera bump.
You're being dense. The attendees don't know ahead of time if they're going to have a major announcement or not.
And you're being a dick. So, stfu.
inherited 6s reporting in, have exactly 0 reasons to upgrade.
I also have a 6s and am going to start watching for X-series iPhones on Swappa, mainly as a camera upgrade. My wife has an XS and her kid photos are a good bit better.
Still got that 3.5mm jack too!
Roger that. Battery needs replacing but I'll gladly give Apple £80 to do that instead of £1.3k for a new one.
Really glad I got the 128GB 6s now... lots of storage makes the difference in longevity.
> I bought my iPhone 8 two years ago thinking of it as a 5 year investment.
That's exactly what's wrong, that users don't feel compelled to upgrade. It's bad for business.
But good for users. We will not generate too much electronic waste. Will save money and when finally when their is actually a time to upgrade due to actual hardware degradation, You can get nice bump in hardware spec.
Very little e-waste is generated by iPhone upgrades. Apple is using 100% recycled materials now, has a trade-in recycling program, and their is a robust resell market for older devices.
I'd say the biggest e-waste offender right now is the server market. Enterprises are replacing entire data centers full of servers every 3-4 years because of depreciation and OPEX efficiency upgrades.
> Apple is using 100% recycled materials now
"So far, we’ve identified recycled alternatives for 24 different grades of plastic, allowing us to use an average of 38 percent recycled plastic across 82 components for products released this year."
Not disputing that apple doesn’t “use 100% recycled materials” now (that would be virtually impossible), but the plastic recycling figure is also not saying much about e-waste from iPhones either. How much plastic is even used making an iPhone? I would be surprised if it’s more than 10%. Recycling figures for aluminum, stainless steel, glass, battery chemicals, and the expensive metals such as gold and silver used in phones are probably close to 100%. If the ‘24 different grades of plastic’ include the materials used for the (tiny) PCB in an iPhone, not much is left that is not recycled.
On a side note, I would like to see some figures how much energy and materials are actually spent when replacing something like a phone, compared to things like driving to work each day, running the AC for 12+ hours a day, flying around the globe once or twice a year or eating meat and dairy products every day of the week. I would be surprised if it’s even remotely significant compared to these things (yes this is a cynical and not very constructive argument to make, but perfectly rational)
> Apple is using 100% recycled materials now.
For consumer devices? Very unlikely. Do you have a citation?
> has a trade-in recycling program
Just because you send something off to be recycled doesn't mean it actually ends up being recycled. It's much better off to not have to recycle in the first place at all (eg. by making your hardware easy to repair, which Apple is notoriously bad at).
Apparently I misunderstood the keynote, it is 100% recyclable materials.
Bad for business but good for customers? I'd just assume that most of us are customers.
Good for the environment though, I'll take it.
Apple has stated that it is part of their plan to have the longest possible useful life of their devices.
This is good for their business.
These threads always seem to miss the point. It's not about the specs, it never was, and never will be.
Apple builds, or at least tries to build, seamless experiences. It's the reason there's limited hardware, excellent software support for past versions, and a creeping product line to extend to every device you come into contact with.
The demos showcase cool specs and features, but that is not where the value lies -- it lies in integration, cohesive experience and vendor lockin.
They're pushing out decent new revisions of the phone, but the creative push is going at integration(or should be!).
If I was Apple, I'd be aggressively funding R&D, building out a low cost, separate brand (to funnel India, Africa, into Apple devices over the next ~30 years), and spending everything else on beautiful, perfect integration, and maybe fixing up the Mac line.
Sell the privacy aspect hard, sell the integration even harder, and no competitor will ever unseat you.
> building out a low cost, separate brand
That is just not in Apple's DNA.
Hence the separate brand. Lexus to Toyota, Infiniti to Nissan, Acura to Honda, Porsche to VW.
But those went the other way around.
At our house, because I like new gadgets and my wife doesn't care, I have typically gotten a new phone every 2 years, and handed my old one to her to use for 2 more.
Then we fucked up the supply chain by breaking two phones in fairly quick succession. :( She's on a 6S, and I have an 8. Both are about 2 years old now.
I love to shift to FaceID on a X-style phone, and I'm a big amateur photographer, so holy crap the photo magic in the 11 Pro is SERIOUSLY tempting even though, at this point, there's absolutely nothing wrong with my 8 aside from the lack of FaceID.
Affording it isn't an issue. I've just finally gotten old enough that "new gadget" isn't quite the slam-dunk idea it once was. LOL. OTOH, reloading the supply line with staggered phones is probably not a terrible idea...
I have an iPhone XS Max. FaceID is nice. The camera is good, no question. It is enough for me and for most people. But don't buy too much into the shit Apple tells about their cameras.
After I got the XS Max a year ago, I was seriously unimpressed. They overpromised and underdelivered on the capabilities of the camera. Don't get me wrong. It's a good camera, probably the best in a phone, but boy, the "magical" portrait mode has its glitches. In 10-20% of the portrait photos, the camera/software has trouble detecting what's in the background and what not. Studio lighting sounds impressive, but I honestly never use it. It looks too artificial for my taste.
Sure thing, you can get decent photos with the iPhone XS Max, but the improvement compared to an iPhone 8 is a LOT less than what Apple says it is.
I guess I would be more impressed if they didn't frame it as some "camera that pro's use instead of their DSLR" or whatever they said in the marketing campaign.
"But don't buy too much into the shit Apple tells about their cameras."
I guess I don't know what that means. Any statement by a manufacturer is self-serving and should generally be taken with lots of salt.
3rd party reviews from trusted sites are more useful.
"Don't get me wrong. It's a good camera, probably the best in a phone"
So bugs exist but it's still "probably the best in a phone?" What's the issue, then?
"didn't frame it as some "camera that pro's use instead of their DSLR" or whatever they said in the marketing campaign"
Have they actually suggested that there exists any real pattern of professionals -- who, above all, tend to shoot in camera RAW, which Apple obscures in iOS -- using iPhones in lieu of full-frame DSLR or mirrorless bodies? Because I sure haven't seen it.
A modern, higher end smartphone is probably a better camera than any fixed-lens option from 3-5 years ago. And, increasingly, that means it's plenty enough camera for most people. But it's nowhere nearly as capable as my Sony.
OTOH, I've seen shots with the X and later iterations (by humans I know, not a marketing department) that were genuinely better, to my eye, than what I get out of my 8. That's appealing.
The other factor for us is the continued existence of the 6S in our family.
The 8's camera is materially better than the one in my wife's 6S, and this matters since we both take pics of friends and family and vacations. Moving her to the 8 and me to an 11 Pro would mean a net uptick in group photo quality. Win!
Apple knew it back in 2017 and as each year progresses it’s becoming increasingly clear we have exited the innovation phase and are well into the saturated/sustained phone market. We will never see an iPhone announcement quite like the first 5 and the X. Short of a form factor change, our phones will last longer and the new phone feature list will decrease year over year.
Also - the Pros are thicker, heavier, and slightly taller and wider than the X and XS. Couple months ago someone linked to an article on how much bigger iPhones are getting and this year continued that trend.
People have complained for years about battery life. So Apple finally increases the battery slightly, and now I see people complaining about the weight. I understand now why Apple has resisted this for so long.
All Apple phones are too thin, too slippery, and too light. I want my Treo back! At least give me the curved 3GS again.
I’m not complaining. If anything, I think Apple has actually listened to all the complaints of battery life and reacted in a rather significant way. For example, the SoC discussion today highlighted the extensive work done to race to 0 and how significant that affects the Pro’s battery life. Each generation gets thicker, and in return we’re seeing some of the best battery life ever. These phones will last for years I dont think anyone investing >$700 in these has an issue with that
Apple has increased battery life every year since the original was released haven't they?
This year is a 4 hour increase, which is actually pretty huge.
In theory, sure. But it’s a fact that every time I upgrade my battery life is thrashed. I end up paying for new batteries and I barely last through the day.
Today made me think about the launch of the X. I think Apple knocked it out of the park with the X, I bought it because I was due a new phone and have been pleasantly surprised/amazed by how they got pretty much everything right “first time”, so to speak.
Given they’ve done it 2 or 3 times, it’s not beyond Apple to produce another amazing phone down the line.
What specs are you looking at?
Pro is slightly smaller and lighter.
11: 5.94 x 2.98 x 0.33 @ 6.84 ounces
11 Pro: 5.67 x 2.81 x 0.32 @ 6.63 ounces
I think they meant 11 Pro compared to the XS.
I love the SE because it has style, unlike every other later iPhone. I stopped using it because system font size of 9.3pt is too small to read without glasses. Apart from being unreadable it was great for form factor, battery life.
Apple is now in classic enterprise survival mode churning out incremental stuff. Their innovation is in hardware - i really long for them to bring some innovation to the user experience.
That said peeps should not reach too much into comments by HN folks about not liking ifobs....those devices are built for teenagers and people who want something that "just works". They dont want to mess with stuff under the hood and that is why iPhone and IOS now is as exciting as a bar of soap. Android on the other hand is a playground for folks who like to tinker, myself included.
Apple have nailed their market with perfection. I just hope that some people inside of Apple are working on something truly innovative for the future.
And onto why they canned the SE.....
The supply chain overhead of carrying and manufacturing a device which uses different tech is enormous. It can be almost as much as a seperate line of business - and that applies to not only Apple but also its component suppliers. If the business isnt big enough then it should be cut at some point. Given the FOMO around consumers using Apple and its software the SE became a niche device. It can have the 8/X/11 innards shoehorned in - everything, and my everything would need to be redesigned from scratch and one can imagine the cost of doing that and bringing to market. So i understand Apple's move from a commercial point of view. Very sad to see the brand axing the ONLY mobile product that had some sense of style and uniquess. The iFobs they now make are just boring. I much prefer Xiaomi because i get more phone for 20% of the price.
Meh... I'll wait for 2020 iPhones and the 5 cameras. 3 are barely cutting it.
"Cutting"... I see what you did there.
What about 16?
Too bad their product came out 5 years too late and $1000 too expensive. Smartphone cameras have gotten so good it's obsolete.
"~13 stops of dynamic range"
Sony A7RIV has now 15 stops of dynamic range with a single sensor. The progress of camera sensors is amazing indeed
In 2040 there will be 60 cameras on the back of the phone! Or they'll break off the camera into a separate device: the iCamera and iCamera Pro! And now we've come full circle.
You probably don't realise how true is your comment. Except it will probably be 600 camera sensors.
I'll wait for my SpideyCam - 500 micro cams :D
Disappointed that there wasn't really a true breakout feature I guess they're still doing the s-cadence even if they got rid of the name.
I'm still rocking a 6s and I'm gonna keep it for the next year I guess, more battery life is nice but can't swing $999 for 4 more hours of battery life. Here's hoping 128gb is standard next year (I currently have the 128gb 6s which was the most expensive at the time).
I also have an 6s. Haven't found much reason to upgrade. I like the smaller form factor. I guess upgrading to the 7 or 8 may be nice at some point for water resistance (a heavy rain shower killed my SE).
I switched from 6S to XR, and I wasn't expecting much, but oh boy, you don't realize how much of a difference a boost in processing speed and screen size can make. Massive productivity gains, even though I'm primarily a desktop person. That plus the huge battery on the XR fundamentally changes how you think about your phone.
I don't really use my phone much anymore besides for calling, messaging and occasionally checking email. Whatever productivity boost I'll get on my phone doesn't matter much in practice.
Battery life is also no problem. The 6s makes it through the day and I charge it overnight.
Portrait mode is a pretty sweet upgrade.
For me the 4 extra hours of battery life is the real breakthrough here.
I don't care for many of the other features because you forget them in your day-to-day use.
I just swapped out the deteriorating battery on a 6s for one that has even more capacity than the stock battery did new. It may go up in flames or something next week, but for now it’s a huge upgrade.
If there’s “more capacity” in the same volume it is almost certainly a lie. And sellers that lie may cut corners in other areas. And lithium ion batteries can explode.
There haven’t been any improvements in energy density in the last 4 years? That would be pretty surprising.
Then you may find that battery research and development is pretty surprising.
On a 6S myself but it's in dire need of replacement (survived multiple drops fine, but a flip on my desk broke the glass and now it's progressively getting worse).
The 11 looked like a fine-ish option (with a 128GB version), but god it's half an inch wider and taller again, and 30% heavier. I guess I'm getting an 8.
Just FYI: Your options are 64gb, 256gb, 512gb. It honestly doesn't seem likely that they'll change that anytime soon as I haven't heard a single person complain about storage in the last 3 years. While nobody felt that 8/16/32gb was enough.
I happen to be using 50gb atm, on a 3.5 year old phone. But the new cameras have higher resolution photos which take up more space. Plus apps are only ever getting bigger, So I would likely have to pay the extra $100 for the 256gb.
> It honestly doesn't seem likely that they'll change that anytime soon as I haven't heard a single person complain about storage in the last 3 years. While nobody felt that 8/16/32gb was enough.
I'm currently on a 64GB plan with 200GB iCloud subscription, but I share the plan with family. I'm almost at the point where I'll have to upgrade to the 2TB tier (at 3x the price), so I hope they introduce something in between.
> Just FYI: Your options are 64gb, 256gb, 512gb.
That's the 11P, the 11 is 64/128/256. And the 8 is 64/128.
> I haven't heard a single person complain about storage in the last 3 years. While nobody felt that 8/16/32gb was enough.
I've been on 128 since I bought a 6S. I'm using about 80GB currently.
> the new cameras have higher resolution photos which take up more space.
That's a concern for people who use cameras and keep pictures long-term. I've got 2GB of photos on my phone. I really couldn't care less about the camera.
> broke the glass
You know you could have the screen replaced, right...?
iOS 13 is likely the last iOS your 6s would run despite A9 being good enough. Similarly to Catalina being likely the last macOS running on first retina MBP 2012 that are still good enough and likely will be for a few more years (much faster than latest Airs).
I love my mid-2012 MBP. I expect I’ll have to replace it next summer if I want to run the latest Xcode, which will make me very sad. It amazes me that it’s seven years old, as it runs as well as it did they day I bought it.
I'm looking to get a new one just for the battery life (4 hours more than the xs, which is probably double the 6s). I can browse for ~3-4hrs and can "idle" for 14hrs before 0% on my 6s right now.
For me, the water/dust resistance and better camera was worth the upgrade from 6+ to the 8+. Especially because unremovable first specks had gotten into my 6+ camera, making it basically unusable.
Since it's quite obscure from the product page. Starting prices:
- iPhone 11: $699 (64GB)
- iPhone 11 Pro: $999 (64GB)
- iPhone 11 Pro Max: $1099 (64GB)
$700 for the 11 is quite a good price for a phone that's going to last several years.
The pixel 4 is going to have to come in at quite a good price to stop me from jumping ship to apple.
Any $200 is going to last several years.
I assume you mean any $200 android phone?
The most I've ever gotten out of an Android phone is 2 years, and at that point it's crawling, not receiving updates (OS or security) and seemingly just abandoned by the manufacturer. This thread is full of people declaring no reason to update to this latest batch of iphones. To me, that speaks volumes about the iphone ecosystem.
iPhone SE refurb is $80 on ebay and will last forever if you don't use it as a camera or gaming device.
It is a fair price. I just wish the non-Pro had a 512 GB storage option. I'd like to take my whole music library with me - in its original lossless state this is of course not an option due to size, but even when transcoding to a lossy format for mobile use (which iTunes makes very easy while syncing) I'm still looking at roughly 220 GB and counting. My current 256 GB iPhone is obviously at capacity.
Now my only options are a 1500€ iPhone 11 Pro or an affordable Sony Walkman, but I don't really want to carry around another device.
The iPhone 11 isn't actually shown in the link. It's the successor to the XR. It lacks the telephoto camera and the screen looks to be about the same. So if you liked the XR you'll like this one.
11 Pro 256GB - $1149
11 Pro 512GB - $1349
11 Pro Max 256GB - $1249
11 Pro Max 512GB - $1449
>11 Pro Max 512GB - $1449
For my fellow Canadians, this is $1,905 CAD before taxes, and about $2,152 after taxes. I think this is the first time I've seen a phone go over $2K, at least in my neck of the woods.
Samsung Galaxy Fold?
Helpful! Completing the "budget" line...
11 128 GB - $749
11 256 GB - $849
That's less than I paid for my X 256
If nothing else, at least they have cleaned up their product names.
I watched the announcement really trying to find an excuse to upgrade. But to be honest there was not a single new feature that I really wanted and that my current iPhone 6S couldn't do. Pity.
If you don’t want a camera upgrade every 2 years then there is zero reason to upgrade. But the camera upgrades alone are usually worth it.
> But the camera upgrades alone are usually worth it.
That assumes you have any sort of use for the camera, otherwise it just makes the phone look freakier and freakier for no reason.
Yes that assumes you have use for the camera. Anyone who doesn’t really has no reason to read new phone launch press releases (since about 5 years ago). They are now cameras with other smart phone features tacked on. Incremental increases to cpu/memory/battery/storage but big improvements to picture quality (such as a full stop or two of sensitivity)
It's subjective, but cameras are already so good that it hardly makes a difference.
If you have kids, better low light photography is extremely valuable. Many moments with kids are indoors and lighting indoors is usually terrible.
If someone comes out with a point-n-shoot that's about as good as a semi-recent iphone camera, does live photos(!), and has backup-over-wifi I'm back on a dumbphone on release day of that device.
And yeah, entirely for kids.
Live Photos are probably the best feature to ever happen for parents. They are pure magic.
That is what I thought until upgraded from 7 to 10s. Difference in photo quality is 4x.
You get at least two or three stops more sensitivity if you upgrade from 7 to X. It’s an enormous difference when you need it. You can’t take a picture in broad daylight and say “looks nice and crisp, can’t be better”. Take a photo of something moving, indoors and you’ll see it.
Still on 6s. Battery life is my reason to upgrade. I'm at 3.5hrs browsing, 14hrs standby on a replacement battery <1yr old.
That doesn't sound right. Is this a official, genuine Apple battery or was this done by a third party?
Done at the Genius Bar. I replaced the battery because it was even worse and wild shut down due to not enough voltage. It doesn’t do that anymore, but especially in low signal places it drains very very fast.
Mine has been great since I got it changed under the replacement program last year. Usually around 60-70% when I get home from work.
That’s what I did too - it’s at 54% right now, 5 hours after waking. Maybe I got a dud battery.
To be fair when I'm at work I don't use it much and it's connected to Wifi. If I'm traveling and actively using it for hours it definitely doesn't last this long.
I hear you, I upgraded from the 6S to the XS last year. I love both phones, but the 6S was simpler since I didn't need a dongle for headphones. The jump was great for the screen size, but I hate sacrificing the headphones.
Last year I bought some bluetooth earphones (Bose rather than Apple) and honestly I don't miss wired earphones one bit. In fact it surprised me just how much I don't miss wired earphones.
The biggest annoyance for me is that Nintendo's Switch requires a bluetooth dongle to work with bluetooth earphones despite having it's own bluetooth radio built in.
Are you pairing your earphones with multiple devices ? (your phone and switch ?)
That’s the last point that makes me pause, as pairing/unpairing/switching is a PITA and I have four devices I want to hear audio from. I though only airpods and Beats could switch seemlessly so I am intrigued.
My Bose earphones can be connected to two devices concurrently. However it can be paired to a multitude more devices but not connected to them. Which means if you have 3 devices turned on (eg laptop, Switch and phone) it might only be connected to the laptop and phone. So you either have to switch the connection via the phone app (which isn't the prettiest nor most intuitive of apps but it's "good enough" for what it is) or turn off one of the devices and the earphones will auto-switch to the next available pared bluetooth device.
I don't think there is a way in the Bose app of setting an order of preference for which devices will take precedence (eg when I pared with my laptop, the laptop would take ownership and stop the phone from playing everytime the laptop was turned on - which was rather annoying to say the least). But it was a while ago when I last checked.
So you don't have to pair an unpair all the time but there are some annoying edge cases. However it's still easier than unplugging and replugging the cable.
One thing I will say in favour of wired earphones is that the wire itself is actually rather nice tool for not actually losing your earphone. The bluetooth earphones I have are connected via a cable between the two ear pieces (which goes round the back of your neck) which means I can take the earphones out to talk to someone and not worry about dropping or losing an earpiece. So often on the London underground I see people dropping an AirPod and then scrambling around a busy escalator trying to pick the damn thing up. I dread to think how many people have lost or broken their AirPods directly because of their form factor. So if you're the clumsy sort or struggle to find earphones which stick in your ear, then you might be better off sticking to wired earphone or buying headphones instead.
Thanks. Having an app to switch seems a pretty good compromise to me.
Headphone jack’s ship has sailed anyway, so it’s mostly a matter of making peace with it with decent alternatives.
The way Bose does it can be a little awkward (sometimes you have to manage devices from the app), but it definitely works.
Waterproofing could perhaps be the main feature, the 6S being the last one who didn’t get it. I also wonder if they increased screen durability, with all the shots of phones getting into purses against keys etc.
Also I feel the camera is getting slower as time goes by, and I already replaced the battery.
Good. I'm glad to be off the upgrade treadmill from the early days of smartphones, on both the hardware and the OS level. When my current one breaks, I'll upgrade.
If you are “feature-shopping”, you may want to check out Android phones, which ship with lots of gimmicks (which they call “features”).
Apple is for quality - which is why you are still happy with your 6S. ;)
Yeah, problem is I want both features and quality. :)
I am 100% sold on Apple devices in terms of quality, reliability and privacy issues. I don't think I'd buy an Android anytime soon. I just wish they had a few more exciting hardware features.
What kind of exciting features were you hoping for? What does Android phones have that is missing on iphones? Beyond 5G which isn't deployed widely yet
I wasn't really hoping for these since it was pretty clear they wouldn't be announced, but:
TouchID sensor under the screen, getting rid of the notch, USB-C and 5G
... or something unexpected that's so innovative I couldn't have predicted it.
> TouchID sensor under the screen
Galaxy Note 10+ user here. This limits the availability of screen protectors. Samsung was nice enough to include one pre-installed, but this slows down the fingerprint reader performance.
Perhaps Apple's 3rd party accessory ecosystem and their attention to detail and polish would avoid these issues.
On Android: You can set default apps for certain links (YouTube, browser, mail client, etc). You can leave spaces or add widgets to the home screen. You can plug the phone into a computer and access the file system like a USB drive. Those are all pretty nice. Of course, iMessage, Apple Wallet, and other features are nice on iPhones. Both are different and good in their own ways.
Why do you keep grilling them about Android? They never mentioned Android. They're not comparing iPhone 11 Pro Max to Android phones.
They're comparing it to iPhone 6S. And it's not worth their upgrade.
That ability to record multiple video streams at the same time is the one game changer that jumped out to me. It doesn't matter to me, but a buddy of mine that podcasts and shoots video is about as thrilled as I've ever seen him on apple launch days.
Don't be fooled, that is just a feature you can get using any 3rd party app that gives you 2 camera feeds (front facing and rear facing) or write it yourself. For iOS: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/249/
Sadly still missing USB-C
I was disappointed as well. But I get it.
After three years, Pixel users still have to refer to a guide  or track down a Google Engineer's Amazon reviews  to find a 3rd party USB-C cable on Amazon that doesn't have the potential to fry their device .
If I were Apple, I'd be hesitant to jump on to USB-C, when Amazon and gas stations around the world are selling $5 cables and chargers that are so out-of-spec that they introduce the very real possibility of damaging devices that will end up at the Genius Bar for an AppleCare+ repair/replacement.
USB-C has more dust problems in my experience. With lightning you can just blow out the dust (bigger space).
Yeah, the entire world is using superior USB-C and charge smartphones directly from laptop cable. Apple users still carry adapters...
Adapters to plugin in iPhones in to Mac Books... Its hilariously incompetent.
Does this cable not work to plug an iPhone into a macbook these days, or am I missing something?
Sure it does, but it doesn't ship in the box. In the box is a USB-A -> Lightning cable.
I get that there's arguably a "general principle of the matter" component here, but the cable that comes with the iPhone is more useful to me than a USB-C version would be. My use cases -- and I doubt I'm an outlier -- are "charge the phone," where it really doesn't matter what the end that plugs into the charger is, and "connect to CarPlay," where my (model year 2019) car has USB-A but not USB-C. If the iPhone shipped with USB-C to Lightning cable and charger, it would be marginally less useful to me -- I'd just have to go buy the USB-A to Lightning cable.
The number of times I've needed to physically connect my iPhone to any of my Macs is, as far as I can recall, zero, and it's been that way for years. Wireless everything has been much, much better for me. The only time I've really used a cable is to do backups before installing beta versions of iOS. (And that backs up to my Mac mini, which -- even in its current updated incarnation -- still has USB-A ports.)
Not every computer comes with USB C. Pretty much every computer though does come with USB A. And IIRC, male A to male C cables are not allowed per the spec
Male USB-A to male USB-C cables are allowed, what's not allowed is male or female USB-A or USB-B to female USB-C. That is, on a USB-C to legacy cable, the USB-C end is always male.
It sounds like the new iPhone 11 Pros will come with USB-C -> Lightning. Since it's supposed to come with a 18W charger, and iPhones use USB-PD, which does not work over USB-A.
The framing as if a normal smart phone battery isn't supposed to last a day ...
while enabling an unprecedented leap in battery life to easily get through the day
Wait what? That's so Apple, take a standard feature, claim they pioneered/invented it, and then do it wrong.
I purposely shop for big batteries (over 3500mAh) and my current phone lasts up to 2 days 15 hours on a single charge, and the previous one was similar when new
I'm disappointed that Apple has succumbed to dark patterns in its advertised pricing over the past year or so:
> iPhone 11 is coming.
> From $16.62/mo. per month or $399 with trade-in* Pre-order yours starting at 5:00 a.m. PDT on 9.13.
Guess I'm the only one that loves this new phone, because it's better in everyway, and I use my phone all day.
No real surprises but you have to give them credit for such consistent and focused execution.
The consistency builds trust that if I use their digital services, they won’t just change their offerings on a whim.
The utra wide angle 13mm lens will be awesome to have, been waiting a long time for that. One more reason not to carry a dslr.
The event was meh for me for the phones. Though I’m due for an upgrade and will likely get the 256GB 11 Pro Max (what a stupid name).
The series 5 watch looks awesome. I think I’m in for one as I’m still on a working (all day battery) first gen - day one Apple Watch Sport edition.
I’m most excited about the 16inch MacBook with a new keyboard as my mid 2013 MacBook Pro 15inch laptop is really showing its age.
Apple really nailed the pricing of Apple TV+ at 4.99 though. That’s a fair price. Apple Arcade will need to have some really cool games but it at 4.99 too is really nice.
Feeling the same about the 256GB 11 pro max. The 6S is getting long in the tooth and my phone is the single most used device I have. If I can swallow a $1300 laptop upgrade every 4 years then I can do the same for my phone.
Yeah. In all honesty I could keep my iPhone X for years to come but I’m super curious about the new ones.
This is becoming a parody of where smartphones are up to. Retina display (which was supposed to have higher resolution than can be discerned by the retina) is not enough, now you need Super Retina XYZ! Want a great camera? Two isn't enough, now you need three of them! Oh, and it's fully AI accelarated!
methink the next game will light sensing display that can be both showing and recording (maybe not at the same time)
I’m skipping this generation too and sticking with my X.
I want a larger screen, but I’m not paying £1.3k just for a larger screen.
Triple lens camera? I don’t care.
A13 bionic? Don’t care either.
WiFi 6? Nice to have, but I don’t have a WiFi 6 router and I don’t need that bandwidth on my phone, so... I don’t care about that either.
So the iPhone and iPad line-up look fine to me. Nothing exciting, but it doesn't have to be if you are upgrading every 2-3 years and you are a fan of Apple's tight integration of software and hardware.
The most worrying is the state of the App Store, a graveyard of abandoned apps and games. Apple Arcade looks like it will be such a missed opportunity. Why can I not develop full-fledged iPad apps on my iPad Pro?
The App Store used to be part of reviews of Apple's mobile devices, often giving it the edge over Android. Why is it not anymore?
Android as a platform grew enough for developers to justify making proper apps for it. Apple still has a slight edge in overall quality, but I'm not sure it's worth highlighting anymore.
Still notch... How long would I need to wait for another top-end notchless iPhone?
I like to see it as the notch just being a big nice screen with additional screen rectangles added on each side. I don't think you find a lot of people who absolutely love the notch, but I like it now.
Yeah I don't really see it as a notch that's intruding on the screen space but rather bonus screen real estate around the sensor cluster. There was never an iPhone that gave you the screen space the notch currently occupies, so it's not like anything was taken away when the notch was introduced.
> I don't think you find a lot of people who absolutely love the notch, but I like it now.
You will learn to love the design flaw. You will win the victory over yourself.
It’s not a notch. It’s a screen with 2 extensions at the top to show time and status icons.
Hopefully next year. I'm very happy with my 8+ and don't plan on upgrading until Apple gets rid of the notch and has a 128 GB base model. I could live with the 64 GB base model if they figure out how to bring back Touch ID.
Anyone know if the new iPhones will be using Intel or Qualcomm for their wireless? I've had some issues with the iPhone XS where it shows full coverage but data stops transmitting intermittently.
Rumors (before today) said Intel for this generation (since they were manufacturing before Intel dropped their modems).
Glad I waited for the unlocked X with Qualcomm instead of getting the Tmobile Intel version that year.
Most likely Qualcomm after the settlement, Intel’s exit and issues plaguing current Intel modems in iPhones
My browser has a count of 124 "PRO"s in the article, yet I gave up finding any information on how to earn money with an iPhone. I thought that's what professionals are supposed to do/be. I think that's also what the original Macbook Pros were about.
Seems to me that the semantics behind the word is changing. Don't know what it is supposed to mean now, though. Of course it is the best iPhone ever made. It's the most recent one. And even though that should be clear from the get go, they have always made that part clear in the all the keynotes before without having to add a 'pro' into what already is a weird statement.
NB: I'm a happy iPhone user since the 3GS and currently have an iPhone X.
Some of those are imPROvements and PROvides. Search for whole words gives 69. Still.
I figure they went with "Pro" because it makes it clear which is the top model; With Xs/Xr you can't tell without looking it up.
Case in point: I have the more expensive X (because it is less big as the only reason) and I don’t know which model that is. First time I didn’t know what to buy in the store and probably my only tech gadget that I don’t even know the name of.
In Apple land Pro simply means the best one. Get used to it.
Seems to be a camera with a phone app
They could do away with the phone app, and I'd be just fine. It's my least favorite part of my phone.
These devices stopped being smart"phones" a while ago. Complaining about the phone not being a major part of these devices (I'm including Android devices too) is missing the wood for the trees.
Unless you're actually planning to shoot a movie on it there doesn't seem to be a lot of need for the Pro. I guess if you really want more battery life it may be worth it, but I'm thinking almost everybody is going to go with the 11 and its already probably overkill cameras. There's just not much to justify spending the extra hundreds of dollars on the Pro model.
The way they describe the battery life seems a bit confusing. They compare the 11 to the XR and the 11 Pro to the XS.
However, the 11 and the 11 Pro get similar battery life to one another.
I'm wondering... does this mean that the Pro has more battery life again than the XR, or now roughly equal?
Xr had about 2-3 hours more than the Xs I think. But the Pro now leaps by 4 vs Xs, and the 11 leaps by 1 vs Xr... So it should be about equal, perhaps Pro doing better, and the Pro Max def doing better (and should have quite insane battery life).
So I am so disinterested that I cannot even be troubled to go and look at the specs. There is nothing in any of the headlines, etc. that even drives me to look. No reason to upgrade from my 2017 iPhoneX. I used to enjoy this stuff.
All I want is an iPhone 5 form-factor with all screen and FaceID. Smaller is better.
There are rumors of an SE refresh next spring, and I would love if they did what you suggest. But I’m fairly certain that they won’t kill the notch on the SE before they do so on their flagship phones. Perhaps it would be a 2020 SE refresh feature? Until then, there’s be a big ugly notch on a fairly small face.
Heck, the notch does not bug me. Just give me an X in the 5/SE size and I would be set!
I doubt that these are going to sell a lot, but they have their uses. In many jobs you just buy the phone that takes best presentable pictures and videos without effort and money is not an issue. As much as possible automation and defaults is positive if it gives you good photos.
Real estate agent, free lance journalist, some kind of surveyors, assessors, construction, landscapers, interior designers, repair and maintenance. Either you remember to carry a small camera everywhere in job or you buy a phone. $1000 is not much if you use it for work every day.
Jeez. Since the last 3 years I re-watch the iPhone 7's keynote and I can say that my phone ( 7 ) is awesome and I can do such an amazing photos... However I haven't done so and I just use it to take a photo of a document to scan it or some stupid poster that I've seen in the subway.
If it wasn't for iMessage, I wouldn't even be using an iPhone...
Because it blows my mind that apple doesn't have a working video on their site....... nay, TWO non-working videos, the keynote and the short film.
Heres the short film on youtube:
The iPhone 11  and iPhone 11 Pro  pages have the short films
I know, at the time I posted that neither worked. The keynote said "video unavailable" and the short demo died about 1 minute in. No amount of refreshing or scrubbing would get it to play past that mark.
Ahem... this three-eyed raven is causing serious trypophobia for me. Wonder how it passed Apple's usual aesthetic design standards.
So here's how the event went:
- Saving so many lives with the heart sensor
- PMS tracker
- Some autism spectrum boy that started to run
- Trial periods
Now, I'm sitting there thinking, wait, why do I need to hear this boasting about the past? Do you have cool shit to show or not? It all just smells like they are trying to impress their own employees and this is something I see so often in other companies, that Apple just didn't do before.
I have purchased an iPhone every year since the 5. The XS was the first time I regretted it.
It's not bad by any means, but there really wasn't much of a change from the X (which I loved), except for the dual SIM feature. I may upgrade my Series 4 Watch to the Series 5, but I don't feel excited for the iPhone 11 Pro, and find that enormous camera module ugly, though the camera features are tempting.
Since the XS I've felt that Apple should switch to a biennial schedule, with new hardware every other year, while increasing the frequency of minor OS updates.
If they had XS was skipped then the 11 would have been a more exciting release. I feel smartphone tech in general has reached a plateau.
You don't really need them to release every 2-years for you to buy every second year.
Seems like they are still shipping $1k phone with USB 2.0 transfer speed. I don't mind lightning connector (though usb-c would be nice) but this transfer speed is so disappointing. Even Samsung galaxy s5 note (5 generations back) already had that.
If all you care about is transfer speed Wifi 6 should at least beat USB 2.0. About 85 MB/s in practice but can theoretically do even more than that. It's still way too slow for 2019 IMO.
I’m pretty sure you can’t do a backup/restore on windows over wi-fi.
You can do a backup over WiFi to iTunes, not sure about restoring though. (I know you can do iCloud)
Anyone else notice the irony of Cook's statement near the beginning that the last model lineup has a 99% satisfaction rate?
So why do we need new phones then? "People don't know what they want until you show it to them." ~ Steve
Gone is the excitement where I would stalk the rumor sites and live stream the announcement. All I hear is better camera, faster chip ZZZZZzzzzzz
Still no tiny phone with a 4" screen. Guess I keep using my iPhone 6.
I was REALLY looking forward to the iPhone 11 Pro, but at AUD 1999, it’s beyond expensive for me. And I say this as someone who’s owned four iPhones and currently on an iPhone 7 Plus.
The product line is also confusing. There is no longer a iPhone 6/7/8 equivalent. And no, the 11/XR doesn’t count mainly because of the size. I’d have stuck with my current phone if not for terrible cellular connectivity on the crappy intel modem.
Oh well, hope the rumoured SE2 comes out early next year, else it’s time for me to jump ships.
As a European I feel the same. Even €839 for the base model is going to be too expensive for most people.
It seems like they are really trying to carve out a new luxury market for their devices, the equivalent of luxury car brands like Mercedes. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but I struggle to see how this will play out long term for their ecosystem.
It's not the same as cars or Android, where there are other manufacturers with budget models. And before anyone mentions it, no, continuing to sell the iPhone 8 doesn't count. It's still a €500 phone. Compare that to Xiaomi Redmi and Samsung A and J models which you can get for under €200.
The iPhone 8 is still included in their line up
Do they list the RAM capacity anywhere? It feels odd not to. (but then it's also a spec where Apple's been decisively beaten in the past, so it makes some sense not to show) I haven't been able to find it on either of the specs pages  .
Why do you care? I have owned an iPhone for years and I don't even know how much RAM it has. It simply doesn't matter as long as the OS manages it well. Comparing RAM specs between different OS seems pretty pointless.
I do care unfortunately... when I switch from a game to Safari to look up tips on how to get better at the game, that game is often force-closed by iOS and I just lost all my progress. If I'm playing a game and I get a text message and switch to Slack to copy a message into iMessage then back to the game, the game has restarted. If I switch from Safari to the camera app to find a picture then back to Safari, I'll find Safari reloading the page, losing my progress on the web form I was filling out. Actually that last point is why I don't use PWAs and prefer the app, because a PWA will almost always handle being closed worse than an app will.
Most apps handle these things gracefully and it's no problem, but when it's a problem it's a real problem.
Why does anyone care how many CPU cores, GPU shaders, or transistors the new iPhone has, then? Those shouldn't matter either if the OS manages things well, right?
Comparing RAM between different mobile OSes is not particularly relevant, but then neither is raw CPU speed or graphics horsepower. Still, people do the latter all the time - and comparing to previous iPhones IS relevant.
I agree, and I don't care about any of these other specs either. No idea why they still list them.
It can be annoying if you just want to switch between a small amount of apps or web pages without having to reload an app or a page every time. More RAM would remedy that on a normal computer. I don't know how iOS or Android handle that though.
Sure, having too little RAM matters. But the number alone won't tell you whether it's enough since it depends so much on how the OS works. You may have a better experience with 2GB on iPhone than with 4GB on Android (for example, no idea if this is true).
Comparing it to Android, sure. Comparing it to last year's iPhone though? That's a comparison that will tell you something.
From perspective, both they are good smartphone now. But there are no impressive thing convincing me to buy its. In addition, the high price is one of the reasons to prevent me to buy its. If you are using iPhone 7, iPhone 7 plus or previous generation iPhones, it's good upgrade. I'm still wait for next generation iPhone, i guess it's major upgrade in both design and feature from Apple for iPhone .
I had just convinced myself that I could probably deal with the size of the X and then they went and got rid of even that one in favor of something even larger as their smallest offering. Bleh
It's plus 0.3 to 0.5 millimeters to each dimension. The diameter of human hair is about 0.05 to 0.1 mm.
The problem is that you're setting up a bit of a reverse Zeno's paradox. Every iteration gets the "oh, it's hardly noticeable", but at some point it will be. I already find the iPhone 8 to be larger than I'd like, but I've come to terms with the size. The X was noticeably larger than that to me, but I realized that I was going to deal with it. And now it's even larger.
The iPhone X, XS, and 11 Pro are all the same size. They rebranded the awkward middle size from XR to just 11.
Or at least almost the same size. It looks like the 11 Pro is slightly larger than the X, although thanks for pointing this out as I would not have otherwise guessed that.
Product page now online: https://www.apple.com/iphone-11-pro/
I'm holding out for next year's "iPhone 12 Pro Max Fusion Extreme".
Besides the goofy name, these are pretty underwhelming.
Perhaps one day they will add enough cameras to make the phone flat again.
I'd rather they make the back uniform thickness so the camera bump is eliminated. Take the extra space for a larger battery. No one is asking for thinner phones but quite a lot of people would love phones with better battery life.
People are almost certainly asking for thinner phones. A very small portion of people probably would prefer a thicker phone with a larger battery, but I strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority of people prefer phones that are as thin as possible with enough battery life for an average day's usage, with the option of carrying an external battery pack for the times when more battery life will be necessary.
I am certainly in the latter camp, in fact, I would prefer an even thinner phone, because I am almost always within arm's reach of a charger and rarely even need "a full day" of battery life.
> People are almost certainly asking for thinner phones.
Are they? Almost everyone I know has a case on their phone; and I didn't have one until I bought the iPhone XS, which is over $1k and has glass on both sides.
I mean, don't get me wrong; I like the capabilities of the new iPhones. But the current design means that what most people actually use not the slick shiny slimness you see in Apple promotional materials, but thick sturdy plastic keeping all that fragile glass safe.
If Johnny Ives really wanted to be able to see people use phones the way he envisioned them, he should have designed it to withstand a 10-foot drop onto concrete. That would be a lot more useful than 30 minutes underwater.
> Almost everyone I know has a case on their phone
I don't think people put cases on their phone to make them thicker. I think they use cases to increase durability. Making the phone itself thinner means that the phone in a case will also be thinner, so that's perfectly compatible with the claim that people prefer thinner phones.
In my case - in the case of everyone I've chatted with that has a camera bump - it's to reduce the risk of damage to (or caused by) the camera bump. Otherwise, most of them would get a significantly thinner case, the rest getting no case at all.
Interesting. I've never heard anything about camera bumps having any effect on durability. Why would this be the case?
1) Sharp corner in a material - creates a weak point.
2) when set on a flat surface, it creates an unstable bridge, meaning downward pressure on the phone is not supported. Think of how a piece of cardboard would react to being pressed down in the middle with only 3 of its corners supported.
3) It creates a point that can be snagged when moving the phone around, either on clothing or surfaces it's set on.
Personal opinion, it's really frustrating to have a phone that doesn't sit flat on a surface, to be unable to easily use it without some kind of case or holding it.
This so much, I had to give up going case-less after my Galaxy S2 because of that ridiculous trend of glass backs and generally fragile designs. Designs that are in fact completely useless except for marketing material because almost everyone will need to put a case around them.
> Are they? Almost everyone I know has a case on their phone; and I didn't have one until I bought the iPhone XS, which is over $1k and has glass on both sides.
And if you had a thicker phone, do you think it would obviate the need for a case?
I didn't have a case on my 3GS, nor my 4S, nor my 5S. I dropped them all many times and never had anything more thank a couple of nicks.
Tried to do the same with my 6S, where the glass goes over the edge of the phone. Cracked the screen 3 times, got a thin case. When I decided I wanted to upgrade to an XS rather than repair the screen again, the wife said only if you get a proper case; and I had a hard time disagreeing with her.
I'm positive that Apple could design a phone smaller than the combined size of the XS a good case, which would handle the drops I subject my phone to occasionally just fine. It would be a little thicker and less pretty than the current phone without a case, but much less thick and much less ugly than the current phone with a case.
Everyone uses a case, often the leather first party ones, and a thinner phone lets the lens be flush* with the case.
// Technically no, technically still inset just enough to not touch the service it's on.
Serious drop test, without any wussie case
This comment is weird. What you're saying is exactly what Apple has been doing for 5 years straight. The iPhone has been getting thicker each year since 2014 (iPhone 6 was the tinnest iPhone ever), battery size has been increasing every year as well. They've been increasing the camera size too though, so that's why it's still a bump.
I think that's the joke. If they added more cameras such that they covered the back of the phone, there wouldn't be a bump.
Totally agree. I know most people put cases on their phones, but it bugs me that mine won't lay flat on a surface. It seems very un-Apple-y. ;-)
The 11 Pro is 0.4mm thicker than the XS (and the X/XS were 0.6mm thicker than the 7). They're slowly getting there. iPhones are getting thicker and thicker by the year.
While I agree with you and felt the same way as you, I found that it wasn't as big an issue once I bought a case for the phone. Once you put a case on the phone the camera bump completely disappears.
I dont know what percentage of iPhone users go case-less with their phones, but I haven't seen one being used without a case.. and I have been actively looking for them.
I say this as a person who used to go case-less with my iPhones until my iPhones started having camera bumps. Then I started to get a case to rid myself off the camera bump. Last year I got the leather case, and while I winced at the ridiculous price I paid for it, I have been extremely happy with the choice. The blend of steel, glass and leather feels and looks great.
I have never used a case and never will (just don’t like the bulk they add). I do use an edge-to-edge screen protector on my XS max and keep the phone face down so the camera lenses don’t get scratched or smudged.
Haven't smashed a phone yet? When you do, I bet you'll get on board with the case bandwagon
Been using iPhone since the 3G (X since release), have yet to smash one and have never used a case. Don't think day will ever come because cases suck and not dropping your phone isn't exactly rocket science.
I'm sure your case repels tigers, too. Right?
Most people would not want this because people use plastic cases to improve drop performance (to the chagrin of Apple). A case on a uniform thickness phone shadows light and makes ultra-wide angle optics more challenging.
They did increase the battery life in these phones.
iPhone XS Max is 208 grams.
Galaxy Note 10+ is 196 grams.
I think these are pushing the limit of weight comfort. Bigger batteries are nice, but certainly contribute a lot to the weight.
I really liked the 158 grams of the LG V30 back when I had that.
iPhone SE is just 113g. And the battery life is OK, and it has the 3.5mm jack too.
iPhone 11 Pro is whole 188g.
188g for the iPhone 11 Pro doesn't sound bad at all.
The camera bump(s) actually work really well with phone cases, allowing the phone with case to be thinner and flat.
Since almost everyone carries their phone in a case, it seems like a reasonable solution.
> almost everyone carries their phone in a case
Not really, almost everyone I interact with uses a phone case. I have one friend who does not have a case on his iPhone 6, and he's actively trying to break that into a state of disrepair so he can justify upgrading to a new phone.
Can you count how many people you know that do not use a phone case?
I don't know anyone who uses a case. Why bother when you get a new phone every 12-18 months and cases don't stop the screen breaking (unless you get something absurdly chunky)
Anecdotal, but then so is the GP.
Be careful what you wish for: https://light.co/camera
Now this is slick. I don’t think sensor fusion is a large focus for apple, judging from their lack of talking points on it. I would think with the resources to make their own ISP they could do some serious information theory work and put out photos that look far better than what smartphones do today. I originally figured that this low hanging fruit would be immediately exploited by phone manufacturers putting multiple camera sensors on a single phone, but I think that may be a little too optimistic and its something we’ll have to wait another few years to see.
Reviews of this camera are pretty bad. It doesn't produce better photos.
That’s too bad. It looks like this is an area ripe for some academic work. The math is all already established and the models would not be intense to develop but would provide large payoffs. It’s a much lighter version of interferometry. I don’t see why this isn’t a more hotly discussed topic.
Might be worth mentioning Light contributed to the camera(s) on the Nokia 9 Pureview.
WTF? That's real?!
I feel like the best compromise would be to utilize the new, larger camera bump to add a slightly larger image sensor, even just 25-50% larger than the current sensors. I feel like it would make a noticeable improvement to the image quality, and justify the giant bump on the back of these devices.
With a larger sensor, wouldn't you need a longer lens to get the same effective focal length, making the bump protrude even more?
I'm impressed at the sheer number of bumps. Pretty much guaranteed to be resting your phone on a camera lens. I wonder if it'll actually sit flat on its back.
They haven't been resting flat on their back since the iphone 6 introduced a camera bump.
Oh weird. Being in Android land I'm not used to camera bumps.
My cynical take is that they are intentionally:
A) Making the camera protrusion ungainly so that most people think "I'm going to put a case on this to make it look and feel better."
B) Changing the shape of the protrusion periodically to force people to get a new case.
Therefore adding an invisible extra $40-50 profit on millions of iphones sold.
In my past job I tested cellphone cameras for image quality. This trend of adding more cameras//lenses was beginning to take effect.
I half-joked that soon the entire back of a smartphone would surpass the "spider threshold" and eventually put a fly to shame.
Essentially iPhone XS with Pixel camera updates.
But three lenses
I'm not looking forward to setting an alarm for 5 am on Friday. I understand those on edt didn't like a 3 am time but it seems that there could have been a different compromise. Like 8 am pdt. Is that so they can say everything is sold out before the morning news cycle?
It's midnight PST–not that odd of a time for a west coast company.
They changed the preorder time to 8am eastern time this year. It’s 5am on the west coast.
Oh, that's unfortunate :(
i am sick and tired of hearing apple claim "best", "first-ever", "most advanced", etc. in all their marketing. it's all unfounded, usually even false, and always misleading. there were smartphones last year that had the three-camera system (lg v40, which has more features in general as well). big deal.
for the most cringe-inducing experience of this, go read apple's marketing/product page for their new credit card. they act as if they've invented plastic for the first time.
I remember Apple reps appearing at user groups in the days of power pc talking about how it didn't have the Mhz but it was more powerful than intel. People loved it and ate it up.
I only hope they keep the iPhone 6s/7/8 form factor. I've just bought a 6s the other month and enjoy its compactness and adequateness after my state-of-the-art, super-heavy Samsung S8 turned out not robust and mobile enough for my use :(
Am I the only one who finds the design with all those cameras unsettling in some weird way?
Honestly I was hoping that the leaked images were somehow very wrong. I hate the look of the back of the phone now. Who thought a rectangular module with a triangle of circular cameras would look good? It doesn't. It looks terrible.
I personally like the design, it looks futuristic to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Well that’s good. Maybe it’ll grow on me, or maybe I’ll find the feature set just makes me not care. I just love the look of my X so this feels like a visual downgrade.
I notice the iPhone is getting heavier.
iPhone X 174 grams,
iPhone XS 177 grams,
iPhone 11 Pro 188 grams.
The Max line is even heavier as expected. I wish they could make it lighter.
Apple should also make an slot for an external storage like SD card. This will allow the use to transfer or copy the date across multiple devices easily.
Any official word on RAM? That's the biggest constraint on my iphone 8.
Had to triple check what site the article is on, the level of writing shrank my brain five fold, the amount of repetition and general lack of information is just too much.
Never saw a more boring presentation in my life. Almost everybody looked like they wanted it to end. They almost ran off the stage the second they finished talking. And the crowd was bored too...
Meh, the pixel seems more interesting (although google is terrible for privacy) the only good news is on the better battery / also I think they killed 3D Touch no?
Seems weird to me that they would offer 64GB as base, then only 256GB and 512GB. IF this is for professionals shouldn't they have had a 1TB version? Or larger?
Unfortunately, no matter how fast the hardware gets, the iOS UX is the limiting factor and just as slow as years ago because of the useless UI animations and clutter that do nothing but waste time. Much of the UX isn't even interactive until the animation loop is finished which makes it tedious to use quickly.
It's like using a superfast desktop but limiting your mouse clicks to one every 5 seconds.
It's sad to watch a device that was once a serious innovation slowly become another gizmo.
Awesome announcement. They should release a ring that helps you control the volume, play, pause, and scroll when reading a page or book!
I’d love for them to make the same phone with an average camera for half the price.
I want a smartphone that has a camera and not a camera that had a smartphone.
Just for you: iPhone 8, $450.
Comments here are missing one point. The very first thing the page says is “a new pro line for iPhone that delivers advanced performance for users who want the very best smartphone”. This is not meant to appeal to the mass market. It’s to silence critics that the competition is faster, has a better camera, longer battery, etc.
It’s true, this phone is not innovative and they pretty much say that.
I’m curious what would be innovative in a phone now, as opposed to incremental.
A13 seems like a nice step up from the A12. Can't wait for the refreshed iPad Pro using it.
Apple is the largest technology company in the world
Stop trying to make "slofie" happen.
Anyone else, from an industrial design standpoint, think the triple-camera nonsense is revolting to look at?
Serious question: Why would anyone buy the Pro when you can get the iPhone 11 itself for $300 cheaper?
Because the Pro version has much better specs.
iPhone 11 isn't even full HD. It's not wide gamut. No telephoto camera.
Is it just me or does the 3 camera design look disgusting? The design is plain ugly. I love apple for their thoughtful and aesthetic design, but I feel Steve Jobs would not have approved that square 3 camera design.
I am getting the feeling that Johnny Ive left the company over disagreement with such decisions.
It looks like a spider's creepy compound eye.
There aren't many things from Android I miss: can I cancel the upcoming alarm yet?
"My phone is so much better than yours I bedazzled it with cameras"
These smartphones are increasingly looking like a spider with all these lenses...
Went to college in 2002 as the first cohort through a newly created "digital imaging technology" program. I failed an assignment because I wrote about how SSD would become standard over HDD, something "incredibly unlikely" - I wonder how my professors feel today.
"Pro Max" is not a qualifier I would expect in an Apple product.
So now we have a camera bump on top of the camera bump? No wonder Ivy resigned!
not sure if i will upgrade for a few years. i regret going to iphone 7 plus as i can't use any decent headphones with it
I'm all in for the iPhone Pro but the smaller one with 256GB will be the expensive phone I will ever buy. It is really expensive in Europe, it will cost in Spain 1329€ ($1.467,36). Insane, yes, but I think this model is really worth the price.
This is probably the least interesting new iPhone ever released.
I think the wide angle camera is pretty important if you're into taking pics
I love the wide angle camera on my LG G5. And it's only three years young.
I liked the wide angle lens on my LG G6 but recently moved to a Pixel 3a. The wide angle was nice, but a better sensor is overall much preferable.
I agree. I have the Samsung S10+ with 3 lenses, wide, normal and zoom. And I end up using the wide angle way more frequently than I thought I would. It's super handy.
They improved every aspect of the phone. Each is a feat of engineering unto itself.
What were you hoping for?
I was hoping for USB-C and no camera bump on the back. Just make the phone 1mm thicker and add some extra battery. I guess that would be too much... We have to live with the "up to 4h" extra battery life that would probably translate in 1h of extra battery in the real world. It's just depressing.
I always mentally translate "up to" as "strictly less than."
The 11 Pro is 0.4mm thicker than the XS (and the X/XS were 0.6mm thicker than the 7). They're slowly getting there.
> We have to live with the "up to 4h" extra battery life that would probably translate in 1h of extra battery in the real world
Comparing the numbers to the stated numbers for the iPhone XS, "streaming video" has actually gone down by 3 hours. And they removed the "internet use" spec completely. You can now listen to music for 65 hours instead of 60 though.
Potentially controversial: how much more battery do you need? I have an iPhone 8 and it lasts for two solid days (48 hours) if I forget to charge it and one really heavy day if I do charge it.
I agree that a little extra thickness isn’t too bad (and on USB-C), but I’m pretty happy with my battery life. Do I just not use it as much as most people? I’m genuinely curious.
You don't need a 2 hour long presentation to give small spec bumps. The problem is that everyone now expects this whole yearly circus, and Apple puts on a show even though they only have very incremental improvements to show. It also doesn't help that most of the the cool software features were already announced at WWDC.
Better computational photography with added camera hardware, new immersive audio algorithms, on-CPU changes for optimized ML matrix computations, etc, are not "small spec bumps". If you think they are it's likely because companies like Apple are so incredible at delivering this kind of stuff that it seems routine.
> Better computational photography
Basically catching up to the Pixel
> new immersive audio algorithms
Will have to try it out but it sounds very much like fluff
> on-CPU changes for optimized ML matrix computations
So faster matrix multiplies are a user-facing feature?
Other than the camera changes, there was no features an average user would be excited over. No new tech like face unlock, animojis, Samsung's audio focus, Pixel's Soli, or other real new features.
I was countering your claim that these were spec bumps.
Now we're instead having a discussion about Android phones and Animojis?
I can't keep track.
I categorize announcements in two buckets:
1. Spec bumps: These are mostly invisible to the consumer, it just gives them a phone that's slightly faster or lasts longer. Faster matrix multiply falls into this category.
2. Features: These are actual changes the user can see and interact with. I named a few examples, both on software (animoji/sound focus) and hardware (face unlock/soli) side.
This presentation had almost none of the latter, other than Dark Mode. I'm not sure why that statement is so hard to understand. None of the stuff you named were really features. No one goes to the store to buy the phone with the slightly faster cpu or better matrix multiplies.
> Now we're instead having a discussion about Android phones and Animojis?
Because you & apple during the presentation made is sound like computational photography in phones was something ground breaking and never before seen. Its been in the Pixel phone for years.
No one said it was new. They said it was big for Apple. Yes, Apple is always behind their competitors in many things, but that’s not why people buy Apple.
I'm never sure why everything always has to be about "X was slow to do Y, and now they're finally catching up to Z".
It is how it is, just let it be. If you prefer a certain brand then just go with that brand. Otherwise it's just a wasted effort to be trying to brag for one brand you don't even work for that they did something faster than another one.
Even ignoring that line, it's still basically the only feature they announced for the phone...
Other than the 20% faster CPU, 4-5 additional hours of battery life, 2e6:1 contrast ratio, and 30% faster FaceID (which might be the difference between the phone seeming to immediately unlock and pausing briefly)?
If Intel or AMD announces a 20% faster chip it would be met with applause. Now imagine if they announced a 20% faster chip that also used 25% less energy. And it also takes great pictures with three different lenses, recognizes your face, has one of the best screens ever made, and so on. If that's not impressive, what would Apple have to do to be impressive?
> It is how it is, just let it be.
It's the corollary to:
> Apple are so incredible at delivering this kind of stuff that it seems routine
Would it be more impressive if they didn't try to catch up to the Pixel?
Animojis as "new tech" that an "average user would be excited over"?
Do you think an average user is more excited by animojis or faster matrix multiplies?
Every one of those features appeared in Chinese & Korean Android phones 2-3 years ago. Neither are these "feats", nor are they unique to Apple. They're already behind the curve on these features.
The only commendable thing is scale, when Apple adds these features they reach 10X in unit sales per SKU compared to the competition.
Do you trust those phones with your data?
Do you really trust Apple with yours? .
what I find odd is Apple appears disconnected from their audience, this was not the first presentation where Tim or others seem to pause waiting for an expected cheer that was not to materialize.
I was hoping to get rid of the notch. I had an iPhone X, I'm typing this on a OnePlus 7. There's a few phones now that have no notches or holes in the screen.
It’s a bad sign when your big event starts with an update to Frogger.
Apple almost always builds up to their main announcements.
I disagree, I was surprised Konami was making games again. I thought they abandoned video games, in order to focus on pachinco.
An intern’s Unity project presented by a carnival barker who speaks to the audience like their average age is four years old is not a large step out of line of Konami’s expected behavior.
I thought they axed Kojima it was exactly because they were focusing on cheaper, more profitable mobile games.
honestly, the XS/XR one was the same for me. I have an iPhone X and there was zero temptation to upgrade to XS/XR and a meh amount to the 11/11 Pro (11R/11S).
I think phone advancement cycles have hit a point where I'm kind of underwhelmed from everyone and that's fine. I just want Apple to come out with one using USB-C instead of Lightning (to match iPad Pro and MacBook Pro and being able to rid myself of my lightning cables), 5G (for future proofing), and maybe in-display fingerprint.
I could go for a model like that and my next upgrades will probably just be the batteries until it bites the dust.
Same. I bought a 7+ when my 6 died, and I hated every minute with that phone. My X is, IMO, the best iPhone I've ever owned, and have no real desire to upgrade. Usually I upgrade every 2 years, on the "S" cycle (the 6 was an aberration), as I cared more about performance than having the latest 'look' phone.
This is probably the first time I haven't felt the hankering at the 2 year mark.
This is me. I'm still rocking an iPhone 7 but use an iPhone X as my work phone. I think the iPhone 11 will get the upgrade for my personal device but I'll probably still with the X for work unless I notice a huge difference in camera quality.
Yep, I've got an iPhone X and feel like it's fine for another year. Although the battery life improvements are supposed to be notable? Personally the next big thing I'm waiting for is USB-C so iPhone 12 it is...
To each their own. The improvements in computational photography like automatically stitching a few pictures together for higher resolution and night mode are pretty incredible. And the improved dynamic range, resolution, and added wide angle lens are nice improvements.
I've updated every 2 years for the past 8 years or so -- even back then I never felt the need to upgrade the very next year, but by 2 years out I've always been pretty excited for the improvements. And this year that still holds, I'm excited to upgrade my iPhone X.
The stitching feature is vaporware.
"Incredible" is a pretty big stretch. When you can calibrate the cameras yourself, the math isn't actually that difficult to work out. Also, there are plenty of us that use the phone in a "pro" sense as a mobile computing device, not as a photographer or film director.
I'm just happy they dropped the stupid 'X' nomenclature. Now they need to rename Xcode to Apple Code or something...
11 Code Pro & 11 Code Pro Max, according to precedence.
The X was roman numeral 10
That's what I think is stupid. Roman numerals are stupid and make things inconsistently named. iPhone ten vs ecks-code.
Fair point. Once you start listing it out, you see how confusing they made it for users:
- OS X = "OS ten"
- iphone X = "iphone ten"
- Xcode = "ex-code"
Plus "XS" was "ten S"
It's just occurred to me I never made that connection - every I know just calls it the XS (ecks-ess).
Which always sounded like "iPhone tennis" to me
I think it was a fun "throw back" to when they released OSX (the previous version was called OS 9).
"OSX" is pronounced "ozz-icks" :)
Huh, I always called it the iPhone Ecks.
I can't really think of a 'tech thing' with 'X' in the name that is not pronounced Ecks.
They can call it what they want and I understand what they were going for, but it'll always be iPhone Ecks to me.
Shit, are we supposed to be pronouncing that "tencode"?
Yeah that may have been what they intended, but everyone I know, including people who work retail selling the phones, calls it an "excess Max".
If you type the say command into Terminal on a Mac and have it say "iPhone X" or "Mac OS X" it will pronounce it correctly (Ten instead of X). Doesn't relate much to the argument, other than being a neat easter egg.
Well it at least shows what they intended. :)
Except a ton of people said the letter (since iPhones 3-8 used Arabic numerals), and the "XS" was written together, to make it even more confusing.
Yeah, the X was confusing, but now the new iPhone 11 is not really the new iPhone 11. The iPhone 11 Pro is the new iPhone 11. Still confusing...
They're changing the product positioning in the line so that the most popular model is now the "normal" one, and premium models are a step up from that. Honestly I like it better than giving the high end model the default branding with a worse model below it that most people will actually buy.
If you think that differentiating between three phones in the new range is confusing, you should keep far away from Xiaomi!
The argument has been made that the 11 is just as good as the flagship iPhones of the past but now they have another beyond-flagship model above that.
With the most underwhelming event
1.5 hour just to re-announce Arcade/TV+, and give a small spec bump to iPad, Apple Watch and iPhone. What a waste of time. The only real new feature the iPhone got was Night Mode which is an exact copy of the computational stuff Pixel does with Night Sight, from their description.
They didn't mention any spec bump for the watch.
Are you kidding, the display is always on. That was the biggest announcement of the day IMO.
Yep, and that's the feature I'd turn off right away. Well, I guess no upgrade for me this year from S3.
You are assuming Apple will let you turn it off :)
The ONE thing that was worse about Apple Watch compared to normal watches is fixed, and this guy wants to turn it off.
There's a new Apple Watch.
The apple equivalent of 'meeting that should have been an email'.
They could have just merged all the videos together into one long show. The canned scripts were just getting boring.
And, really, you lead off with a Frogger game?
My company with low 5-digit users hosts an hour-long monthly webinar about product updates. The iPhone is one of the most popular consumer items in the world, I think it’s reasonable for Apple to spend 1.5 hours/year talking about what’s changing
I was hoping for Tile-like trackers. I wonder if they'll show up later this fall in a different event. Would make sense to put it close to the holiday shopping season. Still, would have liked to have seen them today...
The specs page for the new phone mentions "Ultra Wideband chip for spatial awareness" so it's sure to come
Good catch. Which phones have this chip?
It appears just the iPhone 11 and 11 pros.
Im curious what the sensors are used for. They describe it as “GPS at the scale of your room” which sounds pretty ambitious.
Relatively, yes; cumulatively this is the most interesting iPhone ever.
If Apple added 1 byte of extra storage to their existing lineup, your statement would still be true.
IOW, it's a near-meaningless statement.
Thats why no one talks about it cumulatively. By cumulative logic every new iPhone release is the most interesting ever by definition because its... cumulative.
Unless features get dropped.
The most interesting thing they said was they're finally shipping the phone with a proper charger.
I was able about to order an XS Max, so I'm pretty content with better camera/battery/charger, though I imagine if you were already semi-up-to-date there's not really a whole lot new for most users.
Kind of a ridiculous statement considering the iPhone XS was essentially identical to the iPhone X.
That's a very bad name for a top line product
I wonder if there is a correlation between not having taken integral calculus and complaints that incremental changes go nowhere. (Not being sarcastic, just thought of it, watching complaints online)
Idk. Here's my interpretation: People are complaining because their expectations are high and they want Apple to excite them. It doesn't have to do with assigning value to incremental improvements at all. As as aside, I think you'll find people who've taken calculus will more likely be the ones quibbling and complaining. High standards, attention to detail, yadda yadda.
Where is new technology!?
I like iphone11 pro.
No 3.5mm jack? I'll stick with my SE thanks.
Who really needs this phone over an iPhone XS? I'm trying to understand, besides those who want the latest product, who this product is appealing to.
The name is so silly I truly believe they are going all in on Asian market.
what's the point of all these powerful mobile devices, when I can't have 3rd browser engines that I can customize via extensions. safari on iOS is the equivalent of IE on windows
Probably the worst written press release from Apple that I can recall.
Pro this, pro that, it sounds like some low end brand trying hard to make their new middling product sound amazing.
I want a small iPhone, been waiting since the SE
There are tons of people waiting. Maybe they can do same as last time and release it in January!
Until then... I am disappointed in you, Apple! First you said the iPhone 4 was the perfect size. Then the 5 was taller and you said THAT was the perfect size. What happened to that!
Oh yeah what happened was you copied Microsoft phone's flat look and you copied the large phones and forgot about what you said. Just like you did with touting the PowerPC RISC set and then switching to Intel. Oh well. I like Apple anyway :)
PS: The Apple SE is like the Cadillac Ciel. They tease people, everyone loves it, but they never release it, to their own detriment!
Where is the new and wacky stuff that Apple is working on? Facebook has Oculus VR and those weird solar powered airplanes providing Internet access in rural countries. Google has its self driving cars. Where's Apple's research project?
It’s game over for Apple. No innovation, only rampant MBA types. Failing phone and laptop product lines. Chinese phones are BTFOing them hard. No 3rd coming of Steve to save them. It was a nice run.
Hm, so the crazy ugly weird lens thing was exactly as all the naysayers predicted and were called fake leakers for their trouble. Exactly. So it was a legitimate leak.
Will the three cameras allow taking pictures with weird 3D or color effects? IE take a picture with all three of the cameras and interlace them to get trinocular vision or make RGB filters (red on camera 1 etc). You could even do it in video maybe?
That would be cool. I mostly dont care about a bigger screen or better battery.
The FiLMiC Pro demo showed that apps have access to all four camera simultaneously at some frame rate or another, so such a thing might be possible. Matching the images would be tricky, given that all three rear lenses have different focal lengths.
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Hours and years of talk and when they do research all what people really want is longer battery life.
People miss the days where they charged their phone every 3 to 5 days.
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Well those stuff are greattt
i don't like this phone
could it be any more boring
iPhone is sucks
So, the third camera now?
Huawei had a model with one more camera for quite a while, and on my memory different "Uncle Liu Electronics" were making even five and six camera models.
But honestly, that camera module count race is the most ridiculous number game in the industry, far outmatching the megahertz race, core count, and megapixels.
The quality of the 3-cam Huawei was unbelievable though.
The photos used an example don't even look that good. They look heavily photoshopped. If apple really thinks they can overprocess their way into professional photography, they've got another thing coming.
This notch. Can't be unseen in 2019.
This notch is only seen by non-iPhone users. It disappears completely and immediately.
I am an iPhone user who refuses to upgrade from my 7+ until this silly notch business is removed. It does not "disappear completely and immediately", especially when viewing landscape mode video content.
Sorry, I was not specific enough. It's a "silly notch" to people who don't use an iPhone with the notch. If you never upgrade, it will remain a silly notch to you forever, while those who do upgrade find that it disappears completely and immediately, as I said.
If you want to watch landscape video, a double tap switches between notched and non-notched views, so you can choose if you care. Most people don't after day one.
I echo this comment and really the notch has not been an issue for me in 2 years of usage I never notice it. I like faceid over touchid as well
Very rarely does any important visual information become hidden when video playback is covered by the notch.
It does "disappear completely and immediately" for people who have the phone with the notch.
When watching landscape video content it literally disappears completely as it goes black (and on an OLED that really means black)
I do not own a phone with a notch, but I’m under the impression that most video content is not wide enough for the notch to cut into the video.
I think you have the option of zooming in a bit to remove black bars on edges; with the drawback that corner pixels and the notch area are lost. Same as any other non-16:9 phone
I have the X and can't say I ever notice the notch.
I have to echo this comment. The Xs, never really notice it.
I always thought I'd be bothered by a notch, but when my old phone eventually gave up the ghost I saw a great deal for a Huawei phone with a notch, and I immediately got used to the design. I expected to need at least a few days to acclimatize myself, but it was instant, weirdly enough. Now Now it never even enters my mind until I hear someone talking, or see comments, about notches in phones.
Really wanted to like Apple's "notchy" phone as my next work phone... but that notch was just too much. Shame, rest of it seems pretty nice.
Come on, Apple. 13mm, 26mm, and 52mm lenses?
Have you even watched people use your phones? They always zoom in (like, 10x).
A 3x optical would have been much nicer. 4x and I would have preordered.
Optical zoom and thin form factor doesn't work together too well.
Huawei P30 Pro uses a 'periscope' style design (using a mirror to put the lens alongside the phone's back instead of back-to-front) to get 5x optical zoom, so it can be done
I was surprised by this as well - the ultrawide certainly seems more niche than a 3x or 4x for better portraits, attempts at wildlife, etc.
Actually I'm a wide angle buff myself. 13mm is a very nice addition IMHO.
They should have shoved a 5G chip in the Pro Max, give people an "I need that" reason to upgrade their existing phones.
The incredibly dull pace of innovation coming out of Apple lately is the logical result of a supply chain expert becoming the CEO.
I would agree if there was something radical from others. It's all been incremental from everyone ever since the iPhone 4. So it's not a CEO thing. There really isn't any new feature that the masses need from these devices anymore.
That said, as you can see from the thunderous applause after every sentence in that auditorium, the herd laps up dull shit.
The least they could do is have a V1 of their smart glasses ready by this event. Several startups have managed to create ones, why hasn't Apple?
I'll never buy another iPhone without the analog Home button. Having a hardwired "I'm stupid" button makes me feel safe. Keeping it in software means that, when my phone inevitably slows down or crashes, I have no recourse but to wait for the phone to be responsive again.
I know they do it to keep the repair costs down and I appreciate that but the analog button is just that important to me.
A hardware button still doesn't help if the software is not responding, does it? What else should a hardware home button do, than to cause some change in the software?
I dunno, the home button on my first ipod touch (1G) broke, which basically killed that device for me. Meanwhile, I've been on Android for a long time now, and the on-screen home button has never really been an issue like I thought it might. After all, slow software can ignore a hardware input, too.
Everyone ssys this but this has never once happened... not a single time.
Technically, that doesn't have an analog home button. Its a non-moving pressure sensor that uses the taptic engine to feel like your pressing a button.
Looks like the camera is their main selling proposition.
For me, the camera is the reason why I do not consider buying an iPhone. Because it sticks out on the back.
I don't know .. for me it's impossible to imagine using a phone that does not have a flat back.
Of all the reasons not to buy this this one seems a bit silly to me. How is this such a big problem? I have an older iPhone where the camera sticks out as well and I don't even realize it. It has zero effect on day to day use. And if it does cause problems just get a case?
Apple users are finicky and love aesthetics. That's one of Apple's/Ive (before he left) major selling points was simple beauty. A lump on the back is not beautiful, simple, clean or elegant.
And yet way more iPhones with camera bumps have been sold than ones without. Life moves on. In the real world almost everyone uses a case and that negates any camera bump. People will make fun of it for a day or two online, but it just doesn't matter.
I hate cases but Apple is making this less and less tenable over time. Not just the camera bump but also the lower quality glass they use on the screen that easily scratches now. I used to never have a problem up until about the iPhone 7
This is a huge generalization. Close to half of Americans have iPhones, and most because you know, it has iMessage and their friends have iMessage, or you know, because iPhones are vastly more secure and have vastly better support than their competitors, or because they're meant to be simple/easy to use, etc.
To say half of Americans are finicky and love aesthetics because there's no other reason anyone would buy one is a bit of a stretch.
(I'm probably buying an iPhone this year for the first time ever, and I don't really care how it looks, or how good it's photos are, and I'm definitely putting a case on it.)
It is usually offet by the phone cover. It is actually quite clever: SINCE the cover needs to have a hole anyway for the camera, use that hole to sneak a bigger lens. All the while ensuring the hole is facing the camera, since without protrusion the hole may not be exactly in front.
My thinking is that the reason why they don't care about the camera sticking out is that people usually have covers on their phones that level this problem out.
iPhone SE continues to be the best iPhone. Best size, flat camera.
Specs are falling behind but I'm hoping to get another few years before I have to replace it.
Camera bump bothers me less on the phones than it does on the iPad because even a thin case flattens it out. But the iPad's camera bump is the only reason I have a thick case on the back of that. It's either at a desk or in my bag, I'm not going to drop it.
EDIT: I should add that I don't drop my phone because it's small enough that my fingers can actually grip around it. But my asshole of a cat knocked it off the nightstand a couple days ago and cracked the corner of the case, so a properly sized phone isn't a 100% solution to avoiding phone damage. Buying a $1000 phone and not having a case on it is nuts.
If you wear even the thinnest case/skin on your phone, the camera won't be protruding at all. The office apple leather skin on Xs Max makes the phone de facto flat on the back.
Which was the last iPhone to not have a protruding lens?
iPhone 6 and 7 have protruding lenses and they are getting old.
If you have a case, it doesn’t matter. If you don’t have a case it would be annoying.
Why don't they make the battery thicker so the back is flat?
It should be called iCamera.
This is pathetic. A company that has 200 billion dollars in the bank, and all they can do is this.
This is why they have that money... consistent execution puts people at ease.
So you don't think they have that money because they were innovative and introduced the iPhone, iPad, iMac, and iPod? You think they have that money because they've made micro improvements?
While I understand the need to make the camera more powerful (and it's one of the iPhone's truly outstanding capabilities), I just can't understand how Apple decided the design of iPhone 11. (not the Pro)
Was that new camera system really needed in iPhone 11? It... well... just literally spoiled the design... I understand the need of iPhone 11 Pro's cameras... but really? the 11?
Most people want a better camera in their next phone. These days it’s the thing that improves most between generations.
Most people buy the XR/11 phone. So obviously the volume phone needs a camera upgrade too. I don’t think most buyers (even of Apple phones) care much about the esthetics and design of the thing.