pontifier 5 days ago

As someone with a fusion startup, and a recently issued fusion patent I read the actual patent to see what I could learn.

In my opinion, the patent does not describe anything useful. There are no descriptions of the shape of the magnetic field this device is intended to produce, and is about as useful as saying "Aim a bunch of magnets toward the center. It'll work, trust me."

  • bdowling 5 days ago

    This is an application, not a patent.

    To your point, the examiner may object to the claims because the application fails the enablement requirement. Enablement means that the disclosure enables a person of ordinary skill in the art to make and use the invention without undue experimentation. Even if a patent does issue and you're sued for infringement, one of your arguments might be that the patent shouldn't have issued because it isn't enabling.

monocasa 5 days ago

Check out this dude's patents:

https://patents.google.com/?inventor=salvatore+pais&oq=salva...

Laser augmented turbojet propulsion system

Craft Using an Inertial Mass Reduction Device

Electromagnetic field generator and method to generate an electromagnetic field

Plasma Compression Fusion Device

High frequency gravitational wave generator

Piezoelectricity-induced Room Temperature Superconductor

  • deepnotderp 5 days ago

    Just going off the titles, at least 1, 4 and 6 are possibly not bs.

    Laser augmented combustion is a thing, compression fusion like general fusion or first light fusion is a thing and if you use piezoelectricity to induce pressure, then at very high pressures some materials become superconductors near room temperature

    • rasz 5 days ago

      Patenting potentially workable ideas using vague nonsense solutions in hopes on profiting if/when someone else makes them workable is pretty BS.

      • nvrspyx 5 days ago

        IANAL and I know next to nothing about patents, but is that possible if the patents are assigned to the US Navy? I mean, I'm sure it's possible, but is the Navy known for profit-driven patent trolling?

        • credit_guy 4 days ago

          Could this be the weaponization of the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle [1]?

             "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
          
          It costs you nothing to put out some vague non-sense out there, but you force your adversaries to spend a disproportionate amount of intelligence resources to refute that.

          [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_pr...

    • rolph 5 days ago

      3, as posted, is available off the shelf.

      • marcosdumay 5 days ago

        It goes by the trademarked name of "antenna". You can search in a store near you.

        #5 is the most exciting. We used to call it "pendulum", but some people complain that they can't insulate the non-amplified signal.

        • monocasa 4 days ago

          The first rule of reading patents is that you read the patent, not just the title. It's not just an antenna.

    • monocasa 5 days ago

      5 looks a whole like an EmDrive too.

  • bcaa7f3a8bbc 5 days ago

    If you search the U.S. Patent system, you can find a lot of crazy things, because the patent office never actually verifies them. Take everything you read in patents like this with a grain of salt. One example I've seen is a mind control patent circulated in the conspiracy community.

    > by displaying special images using Visual Basic, the CRT will emit electromagnetic waves at specific frequencies corresponding to the images.

    This is real, many side-channel attacks use these techniques, you can even broadcast amplitude-modulated radio.

    > And if we emit EM waves of a certain frequencies, mind control is achieved. It even has some code!

    Probably bullshit. Even if it's possible for EM waves to alter the mind, a CRT doesn't work well. But you can say that it's easier to mind control someone using the web page displayed on the CRT, which is technically electromagnetic waves...

    • monocasa 5 days ago

      Those patents aren't filed by Northrup Grumman and the US Navy.

  • bcaa7f3a8bbc 5 days ago

    > Electromagnetic field generator and method to generate an electromagnetic field

    ...like running a AC current in a piece of copper wire?

  • starpilot 5 days ago

    We need some crazy tech billionaire to fund development for a POC of one of these patents.

    • BEEdwards 5 days ago

      That none have should tell you something...

      • monocasa 4 days ago

        It's incredibly rare to accumulate a billion dollars without an army of people in front of it to keep you from spending it on stupid things.

        • starpilot 4 days ago

          "Stupid things" billioniares are currently funding:

          - Immortality

          - Transhumanism

          - Flying cars

          - Fusion (arguably, considering its track record)

      • pg_is_a_butt 5 days ago

        That they succeeded and were killed by saudi royals?

conjectures 5 days ago

Love the idea that if an opposing power developed force fields + compact fusion reactors, that the last line of defence would be patent law.

  • RandallBrown 5 days ago

    There's a book called Year Zero, by Rob Reid about our first contact with aliens.

    It turns out that humans are the only species in the universe capable of creating good music and as soon as other races detected our radio waves, they started listening to and reproducing our music.

    Eventually, the radio waves with our licensing information reach them and every alien race realizes they've been committing copyright infringement on an absolutely massive scale.

    Chaos and hijinks ensue.

    • Can_Not 4 days ago

      The only realistic scenario I can think of for "aliens can't make good music" is that they're so lame they value the importance of out-of-jurisdiction copyright laws.

  • rripken 5 days ago

    I would read that if it was a novel. Picturing legal thriller blended with scifi. Maybe some military/political drama thrown in. Grisham/Clancy/Crichton

    • conjectures 4 days ago

      With energy bolts hammering at her heels on every step, our plucky lawyer dived through the doors of the high court. Slamming the injunction docs into the outstretched arms of a waiting clerk she yelled at the shimmering blue spheres on the other side of the window, "You've been served."

goodcanadian 5 days ago

Once upon a time, you had to have a working example of an invention in order to be granted a patent . . .

  • Gustomaximus 5 days ago

    Also wasn't there a rule if someone comes up with the same idea independently the patent was invalid?

    We really need to rethink the patent system.

gfodor 5 days ago

Last week Rogan had Capt Fravor who was one of the alleged witnesses to the "tictac" video that the pentagon confirmed the legitimacy of 2 years ago. Worth watching if you're into this kind of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ

  • starpilot 5 days ago

    This was a really good podcast if you've been following this stuff, and cleared up many of the inquiries posted on HN. Some key points:

    - The object had been tracked for 2 weeks by radars: SPY-1 (ship) and E-2 (AWACS aircraft)

    - Pilot made naked-eye visual contact with the tic tac from above, watching it move over the water

    - There was a cross-shaped wake under it

    - It jammed their radar when they attempted a lock, which is why they switched to passive tracking (IR)

    - Visual estimate of the speed puts it at faster than mach 3 (SR-71), with instantaneous acceleration

    On the show, the pilot pointed out the white "aura" around object in the IR video feed. Since it was set to black-hot, this would mean the nearby air was for some reason colder than the ambient air. He said this was also visible to naked eye as a "bubble." Anyone know of any propulsion that would be associated with a temperature drop to the vehicle surface, along with optical distortion?

    Edit: There's a good chance the "aura" is an image processing artifact: https://www.metabunk.org/nyt-gimbal-video-of-u-s-navy-jet-en...

    Also since it was black, its surface was hot, not cold.

    • not_real_acct 5 days ago

      > Anyone know of any propulsion that would be associated with a temperature drop to the vehicle surface, along with optical distortion?

      Check out my Reddit post, I go into greater detail on how these work.

      In layman's terms, a vaccuum has been created around the skin of the craft. That vaccuum allows the craft to travel at speeds far beyond an SR-71. And, interestingly, allows them to travel underwater!

      The US Navy patent doesn't describe a temperature differential, but it's possible that the absence of air (or water) around the skin of the craft is causing a temperature differential and the 'halo' that you see in the videos that were confirmed "authentic" by the Pentagon.

      Check out the Navy's patent here : https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170313446A1/

      a quote from it:

      "An artificially generated high energy/high frequency electromagnetic field (such as the fields an HEEMFG can produce) can fulfill all three conditions simultaneously (especially in an accelerated vibration/rotation mode), when strongly interacting with the local vacuum energy state. These interactions are induced by the coupling of hyper-frequency axial rotation (spin) and hyper-frequency vibration (harmonic oscillations/abrupt pulsations) of electrically charged systems (high energy electromagnetic field generators), placed on the outside of the craft in strategic locations. [0024]

      In this manner, local vacuum polarization, namely the coherence of vacuum fluctuations within the immediate proximity of the craft's surface (outside vacuum boundary) is achieved, allowing for ‘smooth sailing’ through the negative pressure (repulsive gravity) of the ‘void’ (the void within the vacuum). It may be stated that the void ‘sucks in’ the craft."

    • clSTophEjUdRanu 5 days ago

      I'd be very interested to see what sort of jamming was used. What shape were those pulses? Incredibly interesting that whatever it was would know to jam radar.

      • starpilot 4 days ago

        Yeah. To me this is the biggest indicator that it is of terrestrial origin.

        • yetihehe 4 days ago

          Yeah, some aliens can fly through galaxy, use methods of flying we don't know, but can't reason about usage of a radar beam?

          • starpilot 4 days ago

            Dumbass. You know what I mean.

        • tanseydavid 3 days ago

          If the craft actually creates a 'vacuum' at the quantum level it seems superficially reasonable to think that it might jam conventional radar as an effect of how it 'deals with energy' rather than an intentional jamming system.

          But I must admit I know very little about these things.

    • mrfusion 5 days ago

      If it was cold maybe it’s something with superconductors.

  • not_real_acct 5 days ago

    > Last week Rogan had Capt Fravor who was one of the alleged witnesses to the "tictac" video that the pentagon confirmed the legitimacy of 2 years ago. Worth watching if you're into this kind of thing.

    On Rogan's forum, I posted an explanation of how these Navy "UFOs" work. I've included a history of their progress and citations:

    https://old.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/dfehjt/an_explana...

    • runjake 5 days ago

      I'm not going to refute your post, as I can't think of anything more plausible.

      But, I will mention that flying a Navy aircraft dangerously close to other military aircraft -- especially between aircraft in formation is aside from being highly-dangerous, is highly-frowned upon, and highly unprofessional.

      I don't see US military flight crews taking this risk, even if they are piloting "black" aircraft. I don't see this scenario happening (without an accompanying court martial).

      Citation: Served in military in this area. FWIW, I have no better idea of what's going on than the rest of you, other than:

      1. The possibility it's a government-manufactured hoax in order to misinform somebody for some reason, or...

      2. A multi-spectral (visual/IR/radar) spoofing of some sort, which would mean the US could test things on live crews without actual danger to the crews.

      • mr_overalls 4 days ago

        Tom Mahood - a UFO skeptic with an advanced degree in physics - gives a plausible argument that the Air Force has been testing particle beams designed to spoof radar for quite a long time at Groom Lake.

        https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strang...

        "The way it works is like this. When directed toward the sky, a properly tuned proton beam, focused by magnetic lenses, would pass through the first few thousand meters of air with no apparent effect. If the energy levels are adjusted right, the beam itself wouldn’t be visible. Then, when the energy of the beam dropped to a critical value, it would dump its remaining energy in a very short distance, ionizing the oxygen and nitrogen atoms of the atmosphere, causing one damn fine glowing ball of plasma."

        "Assuming a circular beam aperture, the plasma would also take on a circular shape. Viewed from the side, the plasma would have a lenticular cross-section, and possibly even a different color from the bottom to the top due to the energy gradient of the dying beam. Very much like a spectral distribution). In short, it would look just like a glowing saucer. The beam could quickly be moved laterally, giving the plasma the appearance of instantly moving across the sky, much as a searchlight can jump 'instantly' across the bottom of a cloud."

      • penagwin 5 days ago

        I was thinking the same thing. The only other thought was they were testing to see if our own procedures could detect the craft?

        But then I would have expected the crews who saw it to be quickly hushed - not publicly talking about it.

    • LoveDeathRobots 5 days ago

      https://old.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/dfehjt/an_explana...

      > The US Navy has made it abundantly clear that they have this technology .. When motionless, the craft point their gravitational waveguides DOWN, which causes them to hover.

      OK then, tell us why they allowed two shuttles to explode rather than use this gravitational waveguide technology?

      • not_real_acct 5 days ago

        Because the technology was classified at the time.

        In 2008, a CIA analyst named "Ron Pandolfi" signed off on the declassification of the technology in a documented that he signed, here : https://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/gravwaves.pdf

        Pandolfi testified before the senate in 1998 in regards to the Chinese stealing U.S. technology:

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campf...

        The US patent office rejected the Navy's patents initially, then signed off on them after the Navy protested that China was working on something similar. Details here : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28729/docs-show-navy-g...

        • pedrocr 5 days ago

          >In 2008, a CIA analyst named "Ron Pandolfi" signed off on the declassification of the technology in a documented that he signed, here : https://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/gravwaves.pdf

          That document says very clearly the technology is not feasible.

          • not_real_acct 5 days ago

            > That document says very clearly the technology is not feasible.

            Yes, that's true. In the declassified document from 2008, they explicitly said it was unfeasible.

            In the patent from ten years later, they explain how they did it.

            Here is a cut and paste from the Navy's patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US10322827B2/):

            "The JASON report considers relatively low EM energy fluxes, when compared with those generated by the physical mechanisms described in the inventor's aforementioned published paper (on the order of 1033 W/m2, and beyond). This exceptionally high EM power intensity induces spontaneous particle pair production (avalanche) out of the vacuum of free space, thereby, ensuring complete polarization of the local Vacuum energy state, thus resulting in modification of the local spacetime energy density. It is because of this fact, that the JASON report's conclusions must be revisited, are incorrect, and are directly in conflict with the current invention."

            In my Reddit post, I get into more detail, in regards to the relationship between JASON and the US Navy. (JASON was a program started by DARPA, who created the Internet.)

Nihilartikel 5 days ago

As a critical lay-person, I think these patents are baloney. It rings like sci-fi physics charlatan keyword salad and puts forth no plausible verification or discussion of implementation. That's boring. What's interesting is what the Navy is playing at with this. Are they thumbing their nose at Russia's nuclear rocketry program, implying "we might, like, have UFOs or something.. I can't say". Is that really a geopolitical move that the USA is executing?

samch 5 days ago

I have witnessed, firsthand at a major research university, a DoD-funded patent application get pulled back under a secrecy order. It was never made public and all subsequent filings were halted.

If the IP described here is legitimate in terms of having any practical use or viability, it wouldn’t be published.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act?wprov=sf...

yters 5 days ago

If someone has such super technology, why patent it so people can easily steal the idea with a google search? Why not keep it secret and use it to fuel a giddy ride to the top of the power hierarchy?

  • m463 5 days ago

    It's possible that just filing a patent does this.

    1) become an employee somewhere that will pay for all your patent applications.

    2) have some sort of reward system so that filed patent applications are counted positively on an employee review, or have a modest financial gain (some employees have from modest to substantial gains for filing patents)

    3) have unofficial reward systems (such as peer respect) that also benefit the employee

    4) "person with most filed patent applications" or "person with most really cool applications" leads to employee rise to power.

  • not_real_acct 5 days ago

    Exopolitics wrote the following, which I agree with:

    "Given what we know about secret space programs developed by the US Navy and Air Force respectively, electromagnetic propulsion systems have been used for decades in several crafts that operate both in space and underwater. The reason why Dr. Pais chose not to mark the patent applications secret was that senior Navy officials have decided the time had come for the disclosure of advanced electromagnetic propulsion technologies that were already in operation, rather than merely innovative proposals for future development as suggested in the patent application."

    • arthurcolle 5 days ago

      What secret space programs?

      • not_real_acct 5 days ago

        > What secret space programs?

        Personally, I believe that the "UFO" seen by the Navy pilot Commander David Fravor was a Navy craft. I don't think it was extraterrestrial in origin.

        Hence, "secret space programs."

      • larzang 5 days ago

        The X-37 is the best example of one widely known to exist, without yet knowing all the details of its purpose and missions. It's pretty unlikely to be the only such program.

      • rasz 5 days ago

        Moon base we took from Nazis.

  • LoveDeathRobots 5 days ago

    > If someone has such super technology, why patent it so people can easily steal the idea with a google search? Why not keep it secret and use it to fuel a giddy ride to the top of the power hierarchy?

    UFOlogy is a form of religious cult?

lvs 5 days ago

When you are in an arms race, it is important to keep your adversary busy.

maxharris 5 days ago

What penalties does anyone at the Navy face if this isn't real?

rolph 5 days ago

"If it can be achieved, nuclear fusion would be a massive improvement over fission in that it produces much lower levels of radioactive waste and greenhouse gases, does not require enriched nuclear material that could be used to produce weapons"

thermonuclear weapons are fusion yield devices using fission to ignite a fusion fuel. a fusion bomb, or other such weapon is probably closer to production than fusion derived power generation generation.

  • bob1029 5 days ago

    I think it would be better to phrase this as:

    Thermonuclear weapons are fusion yield devices using the energetic fission products to confine and compress a fusion fuel so that it can burn.

    As soon as the radiation pressure drops below a critical threshold, the fusion reaction ceases immediately. The fusion reaction cannot sustain on its own without this incredible amount of force being applied to it continuously.

    This is why we still have not produced commercially-viable pure-fusion power plants. It may still be possible, but if you consider the forces and energies required to create a single-shot weapon that burns its fuel only for fractions of a second, you might start to appreciate the challenge that engineers and scientists have undertaken with the objective of continuously providing fusion power.

    • rolph 5 days ago

      have a look at nuclear isomers, the big direction is to create a device that may arbitrarily, [as in switchon/switch off] stimulate fusion and emit the yield in a unidirectional manner, multiple times before refueling. basically a high energy neutron flux beam weapon.

      • bob1029 5 days ago

        I do believe pulsed fusion energy is a much better approach to start with. We already have the ability to generate small amounts of pure fusion energy in highly-energetic laboratory experiments. If you could place a pulsed reactor in some thermal mediator (e.g. water), you could have a device that produces apparently continuous thermal energy.

        A single 1 megaton thermonuclear weapon can produce the equivalent of around 1100 gigawatts of power for an entire hour. If we could find a way to capture even a fraction of this, you could power a LOT of things for quite some time. Now, obviously I am not advocating actually doing this with fission devices, but having some sort of "extremely temporary" reactor design could be viable considering the amount of energy each unit could produce, even if each only works 1 time.

        • rolph 5 days ago

          this is where nuclear isomers are hoped to fit in. the big hope is that fusion can be switched on or off, like a flashlight.

        • willis936 5 days ago

          Ah. Good ole PACER.

          There is a good reason that magnetic confinement devices are the cutting edge of fusion energy research; and no, it isn’t tribalism.

  • willis936 5 days ago

    Well, sort of. Fusion in thermonuclear bombs is primarily used as a neutron source, rather than as a significant percentage of the yield. If you want more yield then you want more fission, which needs more neutrons. You could have many fission-fusion stages stacked matroska style to make an arbitrarily large yield thermonuclear bomb. See: doomsday weapons. Also see: Edward Teller.

    • rolph 5 days ago

      matroska == sloika ?

      the toroidal sloika is a thing that was supposed to be the super of doomsday bombs, weather or not it existed beyond diagrams is an issue however it had the appearance of a layer cake toriod inside a tokomak with a hell of a microwave guide to either pole of the toroid

  • goodcanadian 5 days ago

    Thermonuclear weapons have existed longer than I have been alive. It would appear that the first one was tested in 1952:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#History

    • rolph 5 days ago

      spacetime can be warped out of a normal geodesic and provide propulsion or other energetic beaming. approximately 2 milligrams of mass in a plank volume will produce singularity, but a singularity weapon is not the goal, its the directed warping of spacetime that is being sought out for now.

newnewpdro 5 days ago

Do any of these patents explain how they're converting the fusion-generated heat into giga/terawatts of electricity?

Am I expected to believe there's a turbine propelled by steam conventionally generating that much electricity powering the alleged tic-tac craft?

Or do the patents describe a purely direct thermoelectric conversion method capable of sustaining such power levels in such a small space at fusion temperatures?

From where I'm sitting, at this moment, this all seems like an elaborate disinformation campaign to both prop up morale of the domestic masses believing the USA has magic China doesn't, while trying to instill FUD in the enemy.

  • krapp 5 days ago

    >From where I'm sitting, at this moment, this all seems like an elaborate disinformation campaign to both prop up morale of the domestic masses believing the USA has magic China doesn't, while trying to instill FUD in the enemy.

    Maybe... I could actually buy that the military has some kind of top secret fusion technology, but this being a disinformation campaign doesn't make a lot of sense. This story doesn't really prop up domestic morale - the masses for the most part don't know about this, nor do they care (that notwithstanding the fraction who already believe the Area 51/UFO stuff anyway.) And I would expect China or any modern country to be capable of differentiating between a description of legitimate science and magical woo-woo nonsense.

    My personal take on this is that there is legitimate, purely terrestrial but advanced technology at work here, but still nothing involving anti-gravity or anything ridiculous like that. I'm assuming people's pop-cultural bias towards UFO conspiracy theories are causing people to jump the gun.

    But even then it's weird. It's weird any way you look at it, unless the whole thing is a hoax from top to bottom.

mikorym 4 days ago

Wait, what, there are people with "fusion startups"? I was under the impression that nuclear fusion is not yet feasible.

  • trianglem 4 days ago

    Based on my limited understanding, fusion is possible. Just not fusion that generates more energy than it consumes.

    • mikorym 4 days ago

      A small caveat. /s

maxharris 5 days ago

If is real, I'm incredibly excited!

  • phs318u 5 days ago

    You just triggered some intense deja vu. I had the exact same response after Pons and Fleischman's press conference back in the day.

    The lure of the magic-bullet/deus-ex-Machina, (that one device that will solve pretty much everything!), can be pretty intoxicating.

    • maxharris 5 days ago

      If it isn't real, I hope that the people that filed this spend some time in jail...

      • nomel 5 days ago

        I don’t know about the legalities of this, so my question is, why?

        • maxharris 5 days ago

          I'm a taxpayer.

          If they've produced technology that can revolutionize our lives, they have a responsibility to tell us about it. (We paid for it, after all!)

          And if they're hoaxing, they have no right to spend taxpayer money on hoaxes, or to file false patents. (And there's no active war going on that would give them the legal right to make stuff up to confuse an enemy state.)

          • nomel 4 days ago

            Can a psyops campaign not be used as a deterrent? Does it require an active war to be legal?

Chrisomally 4 days ago

Have a look on line at the Nazi Bell, which supposedly was the unsuccessful product of reverse engineering of alien technology. The operation principal is the same. The US may have obtained the bell at the close of WWII. This device is so advanced that it seems impossible to have come from current human technology.

  • AnimalMuppet 4 days ago

    Have a bit more critical look at the Nazi Bell. It is probably a hoax.

expectsomuch 5 days ago

Immediately thinking of the recently declassified ‘UFO’ videos... prototypes?

teddyh 5 days ago

Patents are national. Is this also patented in the EU, or could EU use this supposed technology completely free?

(Of course, in all likelyhood this is all a lot of nothing.)