> Like, real Linux, not some weird virtualized or translated environment.
Ah, no. It is very much specifically in a container inside a VM. Now, full credit where it's due: You're unlikely to notice. Performance is good, they've done work integrating it (filesystem integration, forwarding windows to the host display servers through Sommelier). But native it is not.
This is correct, but also a lot of these machines can native boot Linux if you enable developer mode. It's not the most frictionless experience in the world, but it can work pretty well.
Oh sure; x86 Chromebooks that support https://mrchromebox.tech firmware upgrades are actually some of the nicest Linux laptops on the market once they've been unlocked and flashed. I just want to call out that the author is precisely backwards and Crostini is a VM and a container and not bare Linux on hardware.
Edit: There's also Crouton, for an intermediate option that does need developer mode.
I didn't know about Mr. Chromebox. Very cool. You can also press CTRL+D at boot when you have dev mode enabled to boot an OS from external storage. This is viable on ARM architectures with, for example, Arch Linux ARM.
You can, but it's loud, freezes boot for 30s or until you hit the key combo, and if you hit the wrong key it wipes your device. Developer mode is a decent escape hatch but I wouldn't want to use it in "normal" use.
Yes, this is what I meant by "not the most frictionless experience."
However in my mind it was all paid back to me 100 fold when a customs officer at an international border tried to open my laptop and examine it, but was subjected to the sonic-boom beeping of dev mode boot timeout.
What happened next? Did they say log in? Don't some countries, maybe the us say they will keep your laptop for "study" if you don't log in and let them snoop?
Sure, but it became a waste of time once they stopped allowing you to upgrade the storage - this used to be the best path to a cheap linux laptop. Not any more.
Some devices do have soldered down eMMC storage, but others have M.2 slots for NVMe storage. The later can be easily upgraded. Some of the newer AMD Chromebooks have an eMMC to NVMe bridge in M.2 form factor, so these can be upgraded as well.
Oh dear, that is even more locked down than many expected and much more distant from the typical Linux distro that the many Linux Desktop fans have been used to.
Either way, it doesn't matter, I'd expect whatever is running in ChromeOS (Linux Kernel) to be replaced by Fuchsia (Zircon kernel) underneath. They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion and that will be what these devices like that $100 Chromebook will be running in the future.
So it will be even more locked down and tightly controlled.
Microkernels have always been slower than monolithic kernels, never faster.
There is zero chance that Zircon will be faster than Linux.
The classic example is Mach from CMU:
"When Mach was first being seriously used in the 2.x versions, performance was slower than traditional monolithic operating systems, perhaps as much as 25%... When Mach 3 attempted to move most of the operating system into user-space, the overhead became higher still: benchmarks between Mach and Ultrix on a MIPS R3000 showed a performance hit as great as 67% on some workloads."
> They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion...
I mean, that would make sense. But being Google, I think they're likely to name it something different that nobody recognizes. And then change that name to something similar enough to ChromeOS to cause confusion, since they're actually separate and incompatible products.
Sigh. Sorry, I used to work for Google, on chat and video chat products.
Seems like the FAQ makes a distinction between running the default container and running custom containers. From the description it seems like when using the default terminal app it is a container, not a VM, and when running custom containers it is in a VM: https://chromeos.dev/en/linux/linux-on-chromeos-faq#am-i-run...
ChromeOS forces an Google-dictated immutable VM image ("termina"). Inside this VM, in LXD containers, you get to run whatever you want. You can have multiple VMs, but they're all the termina image. You can get a shell in the termina VM, but it's pretty pointless, and all useful things are inside the LXD container.
When the hardware supports it (most often true these days), you can run nested virtualization: KVM (inside LXD) inside KVM. That will get you an arbitrary VM image.
They might relax the "Termina VMs only" policy later, but that depends on a bunch more security spending.
WSL 1 was ABI emulation, which I agree is different. But WSL 2 is Linux in a VM, which is actually one layer less than this, because this is Linux in a container in a VM.
I do all my work on an under $200 Chromebook. I have a VPS where I do all the actual work. I use Mosh and TMUX for connecting and saving my different projects (I'm a freelance developer who is often juggling multiple clients). Basically, the Chromebook is just an SSH client and a web browser (I can also boot into Linux if needed - slightly different than described in the Tweets).
I've been doing this for years. The battery life is great and it is also nice knowing that I never have to worry about losing my device since all of my actual work is on a server I can login to using just about any other device including my phone. Most people are shocked when they see my "work station."
I read about people using TMUX and a VPS as a development environment here on HN a long time ago and have never regretted the move.
Kudos for that. There must be some feeling of accomplishment turning in work done on a toy computer, designed for eight year old kids and with no discernible CPU.
I have slipped into working almost exclusively on a Chromebook for a pet project that is going rather well. I have this realisation that I have actually completed something without getting off the sofa.
The 'dim' screen is not a problem, the keyboard is actually a complete joy compared to my posh computer. I did put an IDE (phpStorm) on it (paid for) but ended up getting so much done just in terminal windows. It has enough '.ssh/' to make it great for that.
Maybe like 'intel inside' there needs to be a 'Built on a Chromebook' quality standard out there.
That's cool. Didn't know Safari had dev tools on ipad. I did try blink. I wanted to get vscode running via SSH plugin from a vps but didn't have patience to figure it out. Then I realised I should just use my laptop.
You also have various dev tools as apps. What’s also nice is to use a VNC to get the power of my workstation when I am away. Another big selling point is the long battery life.
The vnc thing rocks. I've installed uis on cheap remote dedicated servers. I would do my satellite imagery exploratory work via VNC that way since up about 2018 internet was a big problem here. In server could download 10gb imagery at super speeds and play around qgis. Rented server generally faster than my laptop too and somehow only $49/month. Tight vnc is great at holding connection and low bandwidth.
I wonder though on vnc via ipad, how do you use mouse? I imagine touch support would be an issue in many desktop applications.
I really like the Logitech Slim Folio case with a separate small bluetooth mouse for when I need it. 98% of the time the trackpad would just be taking up space that I'd rather fill with keyboard. The times I do need a mouse, I probably want a proper mouse rather than a trackpad.
The different remote desktop apps (VNC, Nomachine, etc) have ways to translate touch events into mouse pointer movements/clicks. Not what you'd want to use for a serious CAD session, but fine for little things here and there to save pulling out the mouse.
I've had that "I should just use my laptop" moment many, many times. There are lots of things the iPad is objectively worse at than my very nice X1 Carbon running Arch. And yet I keep coming back to my iPad pro. I can't put my finger on what it is but I think it's some combination of:
1. Gorgeous high resolution, high refresh rate, generally pretty screen.
2. Long battery life.
3. Instant wake.
4. Ruggedness. Even with solid-state everything I'm always a little wary of chucking my laptop into the passenger seat of a car, taking it near sand or dust, etc. There's fan vents and hinges and... stuff. The iPad Pro in a Logitech Folio case has all the corners protected from drops, no airflow, few holes. I just don't worry about it.
5. Pencil. The handwritten notes experience has gotten really good. Being able to flick into that mode any time is nice.
I really liked Blink, paid for it, and then was forced to buy it again when they updated it, or get advertisements to upgrade. Really clumsy and annoying since the earlier version did everything I needed.
I went back to just using Prompt app, with tmux on remote servers.
I like to work outside at different parks (in the shade under a covering) and haven't noticed any "dim" screen issues.
One of the nice things about working with an under-powered system is that you know any users who use what you build probably are viewing it with a device that has more power.
Nice thats what i do too! I use a combination of code-server running on a gcloud instance and chrome remote desktop to do my work on a lenovo duet chromebook!
Welcome to 1994, when I started doing that on IBM X Windows terminals or Hercules green phosphore terminals, depending on the availability on the compute center.
The Chromebook in the post has two 1.1GHz Atom cores^, so a $5 VPS even if it is only 1 hardware thread on a modern-ish server processor is probably significantly faster.
^It can boost higher, but probably not for long with a 6W TDP and no active cooling
It may be, I'm not positive what my Chromebook specs are. I know the droplet has more disk space. I use TACE[0] style development so I don't need a powerful machine.
> it is also nice knowing that I never have to worry about losing my device since all of my actual work is on a server I can login to using just about any other device including my phone.
Okay, but what if the server burns like it happened to OVH, or your account gets suspended for no reason and they shred all your data, or you simply fat-finger an rm command? How do you (the grandparent) handle that?
I pay a little extra for DigitalOcean's backup service and then I also have an rsync.net account (they offer a HN discount that you can email them and ask about if you are interested).
> I do all my work on an under $200 Chromebook. I have a VPS where I do all the actual work.
Arguably you do all your work through (not on) a $200 Chromebook then ;)
Somehow the Chromebook acts as a glorified keyboard+display tied via a very long cable to a several thousands dollar machine that you rent!
(I get that you can run Linux, and that this machine handles browsing as well, and I'm not judging the setup, it just feels like the "$200 worth of hardware is all it takes to do work on" subtext feels cognitively dissonant to me)
Just to clarify, I use a $5/mo DigitalOcean droplet plus an extra dollar or two for backup and then a rsync.net account (that I use for other backup purposes too). Off the top of my head, that is the extent of my expenses for this set up (it's possible I might be forgetting/missing something).
And you are correct, that I work through the Chromebook but when the other monthly expenses don't exceed the cost of lunch, I don't think there is too much missing subtext.
So you're spending ~$80 per year for DO plus $180 for the hardware. Over 5 years that's $580 (if that Chromebook really makes it to 5 years and DO's prices remain unchanged). This is about half of what you'd have to spend on a local dev setup with similar capabilities.
Not bad, but I think whether or not it makes sense depends entirely on the productivity difference between the two setups.
I started working like this in the summer of 2017 so I'm right at the 5 year mark with this setup (I actually need to get a new device and DO's prices have remained the same - I think they've actually gotten cheaper and I'm on a more expensive plan - $5 vs now they have a $4 option).
Due to my client work, I need an online test server so I'd be paying for a test VPS either way.
Being able to open my Chromebook and tmux into any project in about ~15 seconds provides enormous productivity gains for me. Not sure if I mentioned this previously, but I'm a freelance developer and sometimes juggling 6-8 clients at a time so being able to pull up any project at any time from any device with SSH access is very powerful for me.
Bought a couple of these for the kids, and they love them. Not a Chromebook, but surprisingly well made and priced like a Raspberry Pi. Even has an LTE modem. Comes with Windows 10 Pro Education installed, and I haven't seen any difference from our other Win 10 installations. Of course, you could also buy it from Microsoft.
> Comes with Windows 10 Pro Education installed, and I haven't seen any difference from our other Win 10 installations
The stuff it’s missing could actually be considered an advantage, as it’s a lot of stuff people find an annoyance in modern Windows.
“Windows 10 Education builds on Windows 10 Enterprise and provides the enterprise-grade manageability and security desired by many schools. Windows 10 Education is effectively a variant of Windows 10 Enterprise that provides education-specific default settings, including the removal of Cortana*. These default settings disable tips, tricks and suggestions & Microsoft Store suggestions.”
I'm a little tempted by this one. One thing that makes it even more tempting is that the LTE card can be removed and replaced with an SSD. Was curious about Linux on it and found this very useful post on Reddit.
They're definitely referring to the flash storage as ROM here. It's not entirely inaccurate since flash is a type of EEPROM (but still mostly inaccurate because that "electronically erasable, programmable" part is a seriously powerful modifier to the "read-only memory" part)
> On sale $59.99 ; regular price $79.99. Smallish keyboard however...
It may be small, but it has a proper inverted T for direction keys. That's already a better coding experience than many laptops that retail at 10x the price.
Yeah but sales tax in the US is still way lower than your average European VAT and varies by states. Several states have no sales tax at all (New Hampshire, Delaware, Montana, Oregon, Alaska).
> It even has USB-C ports on BOTH sides of the device, which seems to be a Pro-level feature for Apple.
Not trying to nitpick or anything but Apple used to offer USB ports on both sides of their non-Pro laptops, but in the new ones they offer Thunderbolt ports rather than USB C. My understanding is that they only offer ports on one side to let them only need to use one Thunderbolt controller. (The Pro machines with 3/4 ports have two, one on each side.)
I’m pretty sure they did this for thermals. It’s a really
common issue to resolve thermal throttling by changing your power cable from left to the right side so the power from energy draw doesn’t cause heat to dissipate internally.
This is the side-specific overheating issue mentioned--not sure it really speaks to the reasoning for thunderbolt vs usb-c on one or both sides but the side-specific charging issue was a real thing:
That is largely an unverified urban legend. Every "article" about it cribs from the same StackExchange thread, which has one person say that that worked for their mac. I've owned multiple USB-C macbooks for years (in case you're wondering why, mostly due to laptop churn at work.) and none of them had any issues charging on either side.
The funny thing is, the last time I ran into this was at work, when a colleague mentioned they only charge on the left because of this issue. I pointed out that the original post said you should charge on the right and they were left pretty red faced after that. Clearly, they didn't have any issues with charging on either side.
If you need any more evidence, just consider the fact that the macbooks that only have ports on one side have them only on the gasp left!
Hah, I bought this exact Chromebook (from the same store, too -- maybe a Best Buy exclusive model?) too.
I got an even better deal on it. Over the July 4th weekend, it was on sale for $79.
Overall, it works pretty well considering the cost. Keyboard is OK, build quality is OK, Wi-Fi works fine, USB C charging works fine (its bundled charger can rapid charge my phone, my phone's charger can charge the Chromebook), and performance is very livable for basic web browsing and watching TV shows.
The only thing that does suck is the display. If you stay within a few degrees of the ideal viewing angle, it's decent enough, but get even a little too far off axis and it looks really bad.
With these kinds of really cheap devices, it always makes me wonder whether you are not better off buying older used hardware instead... especially if you are looking for a cheap linux laptop.
For example, some time ago I got a Thinkpad X200 tablet in good condition off ebay for that price. I was mainly interested in the tablet functionality, but it's a nice little laptop that is still usable today.
Even if you are specifically interested in Chrome OS, Chrome OS Flex might be an option on used hardware.
Agreed. I got an i5 Thinkpad x230 from eBay for similar price (~$120) and arguably it's much better in every aspect (probably not in thinness and weight)
I bought a damaged x230 to restore and play around with. I now use it for all my side projects and outside of work. It’s a really nice size and I love the keyboard.
Love mine too, it's a great notebook. Recently started hunting for a palm rest part with the built-in fingerprint reader, for whatever reason just love that more than using a USB key.
I love these cheap ARM laptops. I wish there was better support for the hardware, though. I have been using an Asus c101pa as a second laptop for so long that it's outlasted three thinkpads, but e.g. there is still no Linux support for the GPU and probably never will be.
The c100 / c101 Asus Flip is my favorite laptop form factor. Durable, extremely lightweight, loved the keyboard. Felt great in the hands. And inexpensive enough to make theft a non-worry. I wish Asus (or someone) would still make them.
While I have no use case for a Celeron-based Chromebook myself, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this tweet thread as it progresses beautifully while examining the cost-feature angle via multiple humorous analogies. In other words, it's a beautifully designed tweet thread that keeps the reader entertained.
It was a great read, I agree. It reminds me of using unboxing mine for first time and being equally blown away. Amazing machines. They were backordered for almost a YEAR due to schools/business/everyone sucking them up as fast as they could. Glad to hear they are readily available again.
IMO, bad trackpads are the biggest pitfall of cheap (and not-so-cheap) laptops, by far. At least with a bad screen you can still generally read the interface without too much trouble, but a bad trackpad can make a computer really frustrating to use!
Wouldn't be a huge problem for me. If I am merely operating a device, then the touchscreen is good enough. For serious work, I use external peripherals anyway.
I teach programming classes in elementary schools around NYC, so I have a lot of experience with very low-end Chromebooks, and most of them don't have touchscreens.
With the exception of one particular school, these computers are all perfectly adequate performance-wise, but the awful touchpads just ruin everything.
My experience is that the touchpad on Chromebooks is high quality and really nice (I prefer it to a lot of other touchpads I've worked with). I can also boot fully into Linux (slightly different than what is described in the tweets), however when using Linux, the touchpad becomes terrible.
I'm guessing if I spent time figuring out the proper drivers I could probably get it working nice on Linux too but it just hasn't been worth the effort for me.
I really like the keyboard too, but I think that is probably more individual taste.
Yes, the older Chromebooks have some terribly inconsistent trackpad experiences. There is an older Acer model (circa 2017) that had one of the worst I've ever seen... way too sensitive even with the settings adjusted, palm detection didn't seem to work at all, and after just a month or two of normal use trackpads started double-activating (we had a whole fleet of these!)
Newer models are better. I'm sure software updates have fixed a lot of the palm detection issues. But similar situation with Windows laptops, PC notebook manufacturers are 20 years behind Apple on trackpads.
Not sure you actually read the thread or not but the point was that Flutter actually ended up working great on a $100 machine even when it was compiled to JavaScript and run inside a browser.
That $100 machine is more powerful than some CAD workstations we had fifteen years ago. A Celeron N4020 is hardly a powerhouse by modern standards, but it'll beat a 15 year old Xeon with the same core count hands down and doesn't even need a fan.
It's terrible how we have such low expectations of hardware just because it's cheap. Cheap hardware has become incredibly powerful but its owners are forced to struggle with laggy, bloated applications because "well, it's cheap, what did you expect".
That Flutter app looks like it's running better than probably 95% of popular SPA webapps I experience on a daily basis... I know the bar isn't very high
I learned to code on a machine like this. It was a $200 Chromebook (9 years ago!) But I was able to install Linux, first with Crouton, later GalliumOS and learn Ruby and JS on it just fine.
So what's really funny is that I've done a lot of stuff with older hardware like this. I use caprover on a cloud provider and then add extra nodes at home with cheap laptops that I've collected over the years.
Sorry to bring this out of the blue, but I can't resist.
The developer in these tweets is surprised that this Chromebook can run Flutter applications. This just shows how bloated and slow software development has become. Why wouldn't a low-powered device such as this run an application without a problem? I guess when you're developing and testing on thousand dollar computers, you don't really consider all the millions (likely billions) of people running low-end computers such as these.
I’m not sure what you think he was doing with that machine to begin with but he basically runs the Flutter project and was testing it with a low end device precisely because that is important to him to know how it performs for users on low end hardware. Kind of the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Yes, the fact that he's testing using that device is a good thing. But having software run fast on low-end computers shouldn't be a surprise, and I was just addressing how much we've lowered our standards for optimized software; unrelated to what he's doing. But I guess the way I wrote that, I was putting a lot of blame unto him.
Flutter btw is quite good for that, at least the app side of things (author was focused on web). I test our flutter app regularly with an old underpowered phone and it always worked well, with performance only getting better with newer versions - probably the project's work against shader stutters helps old devices as well.
I read that thread on Twitter earlier today. Great stuff.
I bought a Lenovo Duet 2 last year - similar comments: except for my phone, the Duet could replace all of my devices, at a drastically low cost. Except, while it does everything, the CPU and memory are weak. If I were poor, it could easily be my only device and do everything I need. But, I am not poor and have 2 Mac laptops, 2 iPad Pros, and a really nice System76 Linux laptop. Still, the Duet is amazing for the money. Chromebooks are great generally for security and low effort admin, and the Linux containers handy - but, in using Google products it is really important to carefully set privacy and data sharing options.
Google doesn't want you to think about the longevity of the cheaply manufactured laptops they have OEMs peddle which have very hard expiration dates to receiving browser updates. Embrace the cheapness! /s
I suspect Chromebooks will last longer than el cheapo Windows PCs. When a "disposable" $100 computer lasts six years... a $1,000 computer won't last 60 years. You'd have to show that e-waste has an incredibly high cost to justify that thinking.
Everything is dependent on the user. It has updates until June 2027. Assuming the author keeps it will last 5 years.
Sure there some thinkpad stalewarts or desktop (using 500W power) that are running from decades. But these devices have puny chargers, less electricity - just works.
Typically, you can install linux if you can get a new firmware - this depends on the device in question [1]. I've done this on a couple of ChromeOS devices in the past and installed GalliumOS [2]. You may be able to install other OSes, but I found GalliumOS worked well on the C720p I installed it on, and actually used it for about a year on one where I'd upgraded the storage to something larger. You can't get away from it being a slightly cheap machine, but it's great to have something which you're not going to mind if it gets lost or broken.
I bought the Lenovo 10e tablet for $100 ($90+case) and it has 1920x1200 display. Trade offs: 10.1 inch display, mediatek cpu, tablet (no stand/keyboard).
Not the normal price (seeing $334 now), but that was direct from Lenovo.
Can anyone comment on external displays? The last time I tried this was about 5 years ago. I had a Samsung chromebook which was a great little device, but the font rendering connected to an external display was too terrible.
I wish there was a cheapish Chromebook with a 120 Hz display. I'd use it mostly as a dumb terminal but I really don't want to buy 60 Hz screens anymore.
[1] The project originally aimed for a price of 100 US dollars. In May 2006, Negroponte told the Red Hat's annual user summit: "It is a floating price. We are a nonprofit organization. We have a target of $100 by 2008, but probably it will be $135, maybe $140."[32] A BBC news article in April 2010 indicated the price still remained above $200: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child
This reads like an advertisement and the constant comparisons with Apple products is weird. I can only assume the comparisons are being made because he or the people around him use very expensive Macbooks, but It doesn't help that this thread was written by the submitter and that he happens to be an engineer at Google talking about how great this cheap Chromebook is.
Looking past that, It's good for developers to have some low end hardware to test their software on and I think that every web developer should be required to test their applications on hardware comparable to this, if not even less powerful.
Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.
I read this the Mac comparisons as “compared to what I normally use as my daily driver at work which is a very high end MBP with a very different price point” which is far more innocent
That's nice, but Chromebooks are designed to become e-waste after a period of only a few years (updates stop after the device gets to be a few years old).
Most laptops become e-waste after a few years. Want an example? Macbooks before 2017 which no longer get any more major system updates and run as slow as turtle compared to the latest ones.
macOS Catalina is still receiving security updates and supports devices from 2012 and later. Not receiving new features after 5 years hardly makes a device e-waste.
My C302 flip chromebook was released in 2017 and is currently downloading the 4th OS update this year (rebooting after I post this).
And unlike almost every other device I've owned, it's still as snappy as the day I bought it. Plus now it also runs Android and Linux apps to boot. I use it mainly for golang and python development in VS code.
I guess it depends on how you define "few". These days, Chromebooks get 7 years from the day of release. Google seems to be fairly generous with some models and extends support beyond that.
This page lists all the models and their expiration dates:
I personally have the original Lenovo Duet as a cheap tablet / laptop. Paid ~$200 in 2020 and support will officially end in 2028. Not bad. As good as Apple or Windows 11.
Once official support ends, there's still a couple of options left. Some old Chromebooks can use Chrome OS Flex. Some of the newer Chromebooks have the option of updating Chrome independently of the OS. Thus allowing full security updates in the browser even after the OS is no longer updated for that machine.
I bought a ASUS CXB170CKA-212.BCLN6 Chromebook in March 2022 (for USD150; it's not a high-end model). According to ASUS, "The Chrome OS AUE(Auto Update Expiration) date [for this model] is June 2029."[0]
I consider 7 years to be many more than "a few years".
Just like Chromeboxes, some models require the removal of a screw or a jumper while others need a special USB cable (cheap and easy to diy). I don't know about other models preventing the unlock, but if they do exist I would avoid them at any cost.
You can easily unlock them and install a real operating system.
I don't have any Chromebooks but plenty of 1st/2nd generation Chromeboxes -the hardware and specs are pretty much the same- and after "liberating" them they became pretty good platforms for many tasks. One of them in fact displaced permanently my Raspberry PI 4 as Kodi media player.
it's like 800x what an ARM SBC gets you. fuck ARM, mass incompetency. (new Qualcomm Wear 5: a 10 year old Cortex A53... get out. how is an ancient design the "low power" go-to?)
i'm so glad x86 has a basic self respecting low-end that does ok. i have a Chuwi Lapbook 12.3 that- 5 years ago- was a similar-ish kit for <$250 (but a 2k screen). everything worked out of box in Debian. it's just absurd what a dumb stupid awful terrible just-emerging rk3588 costs (much worse A76 cores+puny cores), by compare, to these much much much better x86 systems, that have keyboards, storage, displays to boot. risc-v is no better. i detest the lack of real competition. how has this marketplace rotted & ossified in place so, been so noncompetitive for so long?
there's just no one to keep a reasonable low end other than Intel. i love love love & wanted wanted wanted to get some AMD 1-liter mini-pcs, but they just never became available, and prices spiraled up and up and up. there's still no competition for a reasonable computer compared to what Intel offers us. this world is in huge denial.
> Like, real Linux, not some weird virtualized or translated environment.
Ah, no. It is very much specifically in a container inside a VM. Now, full credit where it's due: You're unlikely to notice. Performance is good, they've done work integrating it (filesystem integration, forwarding windows to the host display servers through Sommelier). But native it is not.
(Details: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con...)
EDIT: I guess I should mention; this does come up occasionally in ways that can actually matter. IIRC I got bit by the (default?) container setup not allowing you to ptrace, you can't mount filesystems or loop devices (https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con...), and you can't touch the kernel or hardware (https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con... and https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con... ).
This is correct, but also a lot of these machines can native boot Linux if you enable developer mode. It's not the most frictionless experience in the world, but it can work pretty well.
Oh sure; x86 Chromebooks that support https://mrchromebox.tech firmware upgrades are actually some of the nicest Linux laptops on the market once they've been unlocked and flashed. I just want to call out that the author is precisely backwards and Crostini is a VM and a container and not bare Linux on hardware.
Edit: There's also Crouton, for an intermediate option that does need developer mode.
laptop runs linux (chromeos) runs a linux vm via kvm (crosvm) running one or many LXD linux containers of user's choice (ubuntu, arch, debian)
You can even run docker/containerd inside the LXD container.
Now the question is has anyone tried running everything above with chromeos flex inside a vm with nested virtualization!
I used mrchromebox with a 2018 pixelbook and compiling a kernel has been a serious pain, and I'm just copying others' hard work.
Did you start with Google's "approved" kernel config and then modify it.
No, do you have a link to that? I can track back to my other sources and maybe do a better job.
I didn't know about Mr. Chromebox. Very cool. You can also press CTRL+D at boot when you have dev mode enabled to boot an OS from external storage. This is viable on ARM architectures with, for example, Arch Linux ARM.
You can, but it's loud, freezes boot for 30s or until you hit the key combo, and if you hit the wrong key it wipes your device. Developer mode is a decent escape hatch but I wouldn't want to use it in "normal" use.
Yes, this is what I meant by "not the most frictionless experience."
However in my mind it was all paid back to me 100 fold when a customs officer at an international border tried to open my laptop and examine it, but was subjected to the sonic-boom beeping of dev mode boot timeout.
What happened next? Did they say log in? Don't some countries, maybe the us say they will keep your laptop for "study" if you don't log in and let them snoop?
Any guide and which is the better hardware to start and try, especially cheaper but reasonable performance for linux, lisp and chrome browser.
Sure, but it became a waste of time once they stopped allowing you to upgrade the storage - this used to be the best path to a cheap linux laptop. Not any more.
Some devices do have soldered down eMMC storage, but others have M.2 slots for NVMe storage. The later can be easily upgraded. Some of the newer AMD Chromebooks have an eMMC to NVMe bridge in M.2 form factor, so these can be upgraded as well.
Oh dear, that is even more locked down than many expected and much more distant from the typical Linux distro that the many Linux Desktop fans have been used to.
Either way, it doesn't matter, I'd expect whatever is running in ChromeOS (Linux Kernel) to be replaced by Fuchsia (Zircon kernel) underneath. They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion and that will be what these devices like that $100 Chromebook will be running in the future.
So it will be even more locked down and tightly controlled.
Microkernels have always been slower than monolithic kernels, never faster.
There is zero chance that Zircon will be faster than Linux.
The classic example is Mach from CMU:
"When Mach was first being seriously used in the 2.x versions, performance was slower than traditional monolithic operating systems, perhaps as much as 25%... When Mach 3 attempted to move most of the operating system into user-space, the overhead became higher still: benchmarks between Mach and Ultrix on a MIPS R3000 showed a performance hit as great as 67% on some workloads."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)
Apple just colocated the rest of the xnu kernel in the same address space as Mach and it seems to perform ok
Given apple is that true … not x vs y easily. But say like macOS and linux on arm and intel.
Stuck in the past?
That is why QNX and INTEGRITY have no sales.
Linux performance is so beyond what everyone else can achieve that is why nowadays we run it virtualized and pack applications into containers.
Also an ancient example. Mach's latest version is ~30 years old (released 1994). See https://fediverse.blog/~/3542/the-three-generations-of-micro... for advancements since then such as an order of magnitude performance improve.
seL4 can barely do SMP. Modern hardware is all multicore. seL4 is not a performance winner outside of the embedded space.
https://docs.sel4.systems/projects/sel4/frequently-asked-que...
> They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion...
I mean, that would make sense. But being Google, I think they're likely to name it something different that nobody recognizes. And then change that name to something similar enough to ChromeOS to cause confusion, since they're actually separate and incompatible products.
Sigh. Sorry, I used to work for Google, on chat and video chat products.
Seems like the FAQ makes a distinction between running the default container and running custom containers. From the description it seems like when using the default terminal app it is a container, not a VM, and when running custom containers it is in a VM: https://chromeos.dev/en/linux/linux-on-chromeos-faq#am-i-run...
ChromeOS forces an Google-dictated immutable VM image ("termina"). Inside this VM, in LXD containers, you get to run whatever you want. You can have multiple VMs, but they're all the termina image. You can get a shell in the termina VM, but it's pretty pointless, and all useful things are inside the LXD container.
When the hardware supports it (most often true these days), you can run nested virtualization: KVM (inside LXD) inside KVM. That will get you an arbitrary VM image.
They might relax the "Termina VMs only" policy later, but that depends on a bunch more security spending.
The tweet says "in a container". It _is_ real Linux in a container. I think the part you quoted is supposed to mean "not WSL".
WSL 1 was ABI emulation, which I agree is different. But WSL 2 is Linux in a VM, which is actually one layer less than this, because this is Linux in a container in a VM.
Audio latency needs to be worked on but other then that virtualization does a pretty good job.
I do all my work on an under $200 Chromebook. I have a VPS where I do all the actual work. I use Mosh and TMUX for connecting and saving my different projects (I'm a freelance developer who is often juggling multiple clients). Basically, the Chromebook is just an SSH client and a web browser (I can also boot into Linux if needed - slightly different than described in the Tweets).
I've been doing this for years. The battery life is great and it is also nice knowing that I never have to worry about losing my device since all of my actual work is on a server I can login to using just about any other device including my phone. Most people are shocked when they see my "work station."
I read about people using TMUX and a VPS as a development environment here on HN a long time ago and have never regretted the move.
Kudos for that. There must be some feeling of accomplishment turning in work done on a toy computer, designed for eight year old kids and with no discernible CPU.
I have slipped into working almost exclusively on a Chromebook for a pet project that is going rather well. I have this realisation that I have actually completed something without getting off the sofa.
The 'dim' screen is not a problem, the keyboard is actually a complete joy compared to my posh computer. I did put an IDE (phpStorm) on it (paid for) but ended up getting so much done just in terminal windows. It has enough '.ssh/' to make it great for that.
Maybe like 'intel inside' there needs to be a 'Built on a Chromebook' quality standard out there.
I have been using an iPad as a remote workstation. Powerful enough, some great apps and a small package to carry around.
What apps do you use on ipad for development?
I use Blink to mosh in to a server where I do my work through tmux, vim, etc.
I use Safari to view the stuff I’m building. There’s a Safari dev tools plugin which sucks compared to Firefox dev tools but it’s okay in a pinch.
I use NoMachine to remote into the graphical desktop environment of the server on the rare occasion I need to use a real browser.
That's cool. Didn't know Safari had dev tools on ipad. I did try blink. I wanted to get vscode running via SSH plugin from a vps but didn't have patience to figure it out. Then I realised I should just use my laptop.
You also have various dev tools as apps. What’s also nice is to use a VNC to get the power of my workstation when I am away. Another big selling point is the long battery life.
The vnc thing rocks. I've installed uis on cheap remote dedicated servers. I would do my satellite imagery exploratory work via VNC that way since up about 2018 internet was a big problem here. In server could download 10gb imagery at super speeds and play around qgis. Rented server generally faster than my laptop too and somehow only $49/month. Tight vnc is great at holding connection and low bandwidth.
I wonder though on vnc via ipad, how do you use mouse? I imagine touch support would be an issue in many desktop applications.
Recent version of iPadOS supports bluetooth mouse now: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211008
Ok that changes things. I just saw too some keyboard/case combos have touch pads below the keyboard. Anyone have any recommendations?
I really like the Logitech Slim Folio case with a separate small bluetooth mouse for when I need it. 98% of the time the trackpad would just be taking up space that I'd rather fill with keyboard. The times I do need a mouse, I probably want a proper mouse rather than a trackpad.
The different remote desktop apps (VNC, Nomachine, etc) have ways to translate touch events into mouse pointer movements/clicks. Not what you'd want to use for a serious CAD session, but fine for little things here and there to save pulling out the mouse.
I've had that "I should just use my laptop" moment many, many times. There are lots of things the iPad is objectively worse at than my very nice X1 Carbon running Arch. And yet I keep coming back to my iPad pro. I can't put my finger on what it is but I think it's some combination of:
1. Gorgeous high resolution, high refresh rate, generally pretty screen.
2. Long battery life.
3. Instant wake.
4. Ruggedness. Even with solid-state everything I'm always a little wary of chucking my laptop into the passenger seat of a car, taking it near sand or dust, etc. There's fan vents and hinges and... stuff. The iPad Pro in a Logitech Folio case has all the corners protected from drops, no airflow, few holes. I just don't worry about it.
5. Pencil. The handwritten notes experience has gotten really good. Being able to flick into that mode any time is nice.
I really liked Blink, paid for it, and then was forced to buy it again when they updated it, or get advertisements to upgrade. Really clumsy and annoying since the earlier version did everything I needed.
I went back to just using Prompt app, with tmux on remote servers.
They give you the new app for free if you paid for the old one now. Not sure if that's something they added later on but it's a thing now.
I've debated what I want to use for my next device. I've definitely considered getting an iPad as an option.
With iPadOS 26, StageManager, and when home plugging into a large monitor and using a Bluetooth mouse, this is indeed possible.
I like to work outside at different parks (in the shade under a covering) and haven't noticed any "dim" screen issues.
One of the nice things about working with an under-powered system is that you know any users who use what you build probably are viewing it with a device that has more power.
Nice thats what i do too! I use a combination of code-server running on a gcloud instance and chrome remote desktop to do my work on a lenovo duet chromebook!
Welcome to 1994, when I started doing that on IBM X Windows terminals or Hercules green phosphore terminals, depending on the availability on the compute center.
Loved the long persistence displays. So easy on the eyes.
What is the VPS if I may ask? Is it an EC2 instance..?
I use a $5 Digital Ocean "droplet".
I'd have thought that would be even lower spec than the Chromebook.
would it? I'm curious to know
Nope it really depends on the plan/pricing you get. The cheapest "droplet" is lousier than a chromebook but there is a wide range of VPSes of varying specs you could choose from! https://docs.digitalocean.com/products/droplets/concepts/cho...
The Chromebook in the post has two 1.1GHz Atom cores^, so a $5 VPS even if it is only 1 hardware thread on a modern-ish server processor is probably significantly faster.
^It can boost higher, but probably not for long with a 6W TDP and no active cooling
It may be, I'm not positive what my Chromebook specs are. I know the droplet has more disk space. I use TACE[0] style development so I don't need a powerful machine.
[0] https://www.agraddy.com/introducing-tace
How do you handle backups?
As per the comment:
> it is also nice knowing that I never have to worry about losing my device since all of my actual work is on a server I can login to using just about any other device including my phone.
Okay, but what if the server burns like it happened to OVH, or your account gets suspended for no reason and they shred all your data, or you simply fat-finger an rm command? How do you (the grandparent) handle that?
https://www.linode.com/products/backups/
This problem is pretty much solved transparently by most, if not all cloud providers.
I pay a little extra for DigitalOcean's backup service and then I also have an rsync.net account (they offer a HN discount that you can email them and ask about if you are interested).
> I do all my work on an under $200 Chromebook. I have a VPS where I do all the actual work.
Arguably you do all your work through (not on) a $200 Chromebook then ;)
Somehow the Chromebook acts as a glorified keyboard+display tied via a very long cable to a several thousands dollar machine that you rent!
(I get that you can run Linux, and that this machine handles browsing as well, and I'm not judging the setup, it just feels like the "$200 worth of hardware is all it takes to do work on" subtext feels cognitively dissonant to me)
Just to clarify, I use a $5/mo DigitalOcean droplet plus an extra dollar or two for backup and then a rsync.net account (that I use for other backup purposes too). Off the top of my head, that is the extent of my expenses for this set up (it's possible I might be forgetting/missing something).
And you are correct, that I work through the Chromebook but when the other monthly expenses don't exceed the cost of lunch, I don't think there is too much missing subtext.
So you're spending ~$80 per year for DO plus $180 for the hardware. Over 5 years that's $580 (if that Chromebook really makes it to 5 years and DO's prices remain unchanged). This is about half of what you'd have to spend on a local dev setup with similar capabilities.
Not bad, but I think whether or not it makes sense depends entirely on the productivity difference between the two setups.
I started working like this in the summer of 2017 so I'm right at the 5 year mark with this setup (I actually need to get a new device and DO's prices have remained the same - I think they've actually gotten cheaper and I'm on a more expensive plan - $5 vs now they have a $4 option).
Due to my client work, I need an online test server so I'd be paying for a test VPS either way.
Being able to open my Chromebook and tmux into any project in about ~15 seconds provides enormous productivity gains for me. Not sure if I mentioned this previously, but I'm a freelance developer and sometimes juggling 6-8 clients at a time so being able to pull up any project at any time from any device with SSH access is very powerful for me.
https://www.microcenter.com/product/649971/evolve-iii-maestr...
On sale $59.99 ; regular price $79.99. Smallish keyboard however...
Bought a couple of these for the kids, and they love them. Not a Chromebook, but surprisingly well made and priced like a Raspberry Pi. Even has an LTE modem. Comes with Windows 10 Pro Education installed, and I haven't seen any difference from our other Win 10 installations. Of course, you could also buy it from Microsoft.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/evolve-iii-maestro-e-book-...
It's also 300% more expensive than the computer in the GP...
The Micro Center link above has it listed for $60.
Oh, I didn't realize they were the same computer! that's quite the price difference!
> Comes with Windows 10 Pro Education installed, and I haven't seen any difference from our other Win 10 installations
The stuff it’s missing could actually be considered an advantage, as it’s a lot of stuff people find an annoyance in modern Windows.
“Windows 10 Education builds on Windows 10 Enterprise and provides the enterprise-grade manageability and security desired by many schools. Windows 10 Education is effectively a variant of Windows 10 Enterprise that provides education-specific default settings, including the removal of Cortana*. These default settings disable tips, tricks and suggestions & Microsoft Store suggestions.”
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/windows-10-edition...
I'm a little tempted by this one. One thing that makes it even more tempting is that the LTE card can be removed and replaced with an SSD. Was curious about Linux on it and found this very useful post on Reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/tk6hdp/evolv...
Looks pretty feasible other than the WiFi driver annoyances.
Multiple folks in this thread are talking about an LTE modem included but I don't see it anywhere in the specs.
Sadly it appears to only have read only storage (64GB ROM.) Kinda cool in a retro way I guess.
They're definitely referring to the flash storage as ROM here. It's not entirely inaccurate since flash is a type of EEPROM (but still mostly inaccurate because that "electronically erasable, programmable" part is a seriously powerful modifier to the "read-only memory" part)
Surely that has to be a mistake?
> On sale $59.99 ; regular price $79.99. Smallish keyboard however...
It may be small, but it has a proper inverted T for direction keys. That's already a better coding experience than many laptops that retail at 10x the price.
Why are deals like this always only available in the US? Here in Europe it's really hard to find any Laptops or Chromebooks for less than 200€
Don't forget, EU prices include sales tax. Online shopping in the US doesn't (as I understand it).
However, in the UK, there are Chromebooks for around £120 - https://www.currys.co.uk/computing/laptops/laptops/chromeboo...
Yeah but sales tax in the US is still way lower than your average European VAT and varies by states. Several states have no sales tax at all (New Hampshire, Delaware, Montana, Oregon, Alaska).
"why is everything more expensive and salaries lower in poorer places?"
> It even has USB-C ports on BOTH sides of the device, which seems to be a Pro-level feature for Apple.
Not trying to nitpick or anything but Apple used to offer USB ports on both sides of their non-Pro laptops, but in the new ones they offer Thunderbolt ports rather than USB C. My understanding is that they only offer ports on one side to let them only need to use one Thunderbolt controller. (The Pro machines with 3/4 ports have two, one on each side.)
I’m pretty sure they did this for thermals. It’s a really common issue to resolve thermal throttling by changing your power cable from left to the right side so the power from energy draw doesn’t cause heat to dissipate internally.
Source?
Everywhere I see people talk about this issue, it points to cost saving -- what saajatjha meant
This is the side-specific overheating issue mentioned--not sure it really speaks to the reasoning for thunderbolt vs usb-c on one or both sides but the side-specific charging issue was a real thing:
https://www.cultofmac.com/705319/macbook-pro-overheats-charg...
https://www.zdnet.com/article/can-a-simple-charging-mistake-...
https://www.ibtimes.com/why-your-macbook-pro-might-be-overhe...
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/309802-charging-a-macb...
I think that was specifically an Intel Mac only problem, because the thunderbolt controllers were separate (and decently high power, 5w?) chips.
That is largely an unverified urban legend. Every "article" about it cribs from the same StackExchange thread, which has one person say that that worked for their mac. I've owned multiple USB-C macbooks for years (in case you're wondering why, mostly due to laptop churn at work.) and none of them had any issues charging on either side.
The funny thing is, the last time I ran into this was at work, when a colleague mentioned they only charge on the left because of this issue. I pointed out that the original post said you should charge on the right and they were left pretty red faced after that. Clearly, they didn't have any issues with charging on either side.
If you need any more evidence, just consider the fact that the macbooks that only have ports on one side have them only on the gasp left!
Hah, I bought this exact Chromebook (from the same store, too -- maybe a Best Buy exclusive model?) too.
I got an even better deal on it. Over the July 4th weekend, it was on sale for $79.
Overall, it works pretty well considering the cost. Keyboard is OK, build quality is OK, Wi-Fi works fine, USB C charging works fine (its bundled charger can rapid charge my phone, my phone's charger can charge the Chromebook), and performance is very livable for basic web browsing and watching TV shows.
The only thing that does suck is the display. If you stay within a few degrees of the ideal viewing angle, it's decent enough, but get even a little too far off axis and it looks really bad.
With these kinds of really cheap devices, it always makes me wonder whether you are not better off buying older used hardware instead... especially if you are looking for a cheap linux laptop.
For example, some time ago I got a Thinkpad X200 tablet in good condition off ebay for that price. I was mainly interested in the tablet functionality, but it's a nice little laptop that is still usable today.
Even if you are specifically interested in Chrome OS, Chrome OS Flex might be an option on used hardware.
Agreed. I got an i5 Thinkpad x230 from eBay for similar price (~$120) and arguably it's much better in every aspect (probably not in thinness and weight)
I bought a damaged x230 to restore and play around with. I now use it for all my side projects and outside of work. It’s a really nice size and I love the keyboard.
Love mine too, it's a great notebook. Recently started hunting for a palm rest part with the built-in fingerprint reader, for whatever reason just love that more than using a USB key.
Here’s a list of ChromeOS Flex supported devices
https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11513094
I love these cheap ARM laptops. I wish there was better support for the hardware, though. I have been using an Asus c101pa as a second laptop for so long that it's outlasted three thinkpads, but e.g. there is still no Linux support for the GPU and probably never will be.
This looks like an Intel Celeron based on this guy's link.
Thanks, I missed this on the first read-through. I wonder how it compares to similar-tier ARM computers.
I can't remmeber where I saw it but arm chromebooks run android apps (esp games) better than x86 as most apps are built for phones.
I used to waste money buying cheap computers (new) but aside from battery, can get good buy from buying old flag ships.
The c100 / c101 Asus Flip is my favorite laptop form factor. Durable, extremely lightweight, loved the keyboard. Felt great in the hands. And inexpensive enough to make theft a non-worry. I wish Asus (or someone) would still make them.
That one was a cool design
That thing is like 70% of the performance of my 2014 Thinkpad which cost ~20x as much in today's money.
The only metrics where it does really badly is the small amount of RAM and storage.
How does the economics of a machine like this work? Does Google pay the producer (Lenovo)?
Is possible to install an alternative OS?
While I have no use case for a Celeron-based Chromebook myself, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this tweet thread as it progresses beautifully while examining the cost-feature angle via multiple humorous analogies. In other words, it's a beautifully designed tweet thread that keeps the reader entertained.
It was a great read, I agree. It reminds me of using unboxing mine for first time and being equally blown away. Amazing machines. They were backordered for almost a YEAR due to schools/business/everyone sucking them up as fast as they could. Glad to hear they are readily available again.
How are the keyboard and trackpad?
IMO, bad trackpads are the biggest pitfall of cheap (and not-so-cheap) laptops, by far. At least with a bad screen you can still generally read the interface without too much trouble, but a bad trackpad can make a computer really frustrating to use!
Wouldn't be a huge problem for me. If I am merely operating a device, then the touchscreen is good enough. For serious work, I use external peripherals anyway.
I don't think this computer has a touchscreen?
Right. I think most Chromebooks do, but this one seems to be the exception.
I teach programming classes in elementary schools around NYC, so I have a lot of experience with very low-end Chromebooks, and most of them don't have touchscreens.
With the exception of one particular school, these computers are all perfectly adequate performance-wise, but the awful touchpads just ruin everything.
My experience is that the touchpad on Chromebooks is high quality and really nice (I prefer it to a lot of other touchpads I've worked with). I can also boot fully into Linux (slightly different than what is described in the tweets), however when using Linux, the touchpad becomes terrible.
I'm guessing if I spent time figuring out the proper drivers I could probably get it working nice on Linux too but it just hasn't been worth the effort for me.
I really like the keyboard too, but I think that is probably more individual taste.
You’re looking for https://galliumos.org/, which takes the touchpad drivers out of chromeos and puts them into an xfce4 Linux distro
Thanks so much! I figured there was something out there but really didn't want to spend the time looking for it.
> My experience is that the touchpad on Chromebooks is high quality and really nice
Have you used the really cheap ones though? I have had very bad experiences with the touchpads on ChromeOS devices used by schools.
Yes, the older Chromebooks have some terribly inconsistent trackpad experiences. There is an older Acer model (circa 2017) that had one of the worst I've ever seen... way too sensitive even with the settings adjusted, palm detection didn't seem to work at all, and after just a month or two of normal use trackpads started double-activating (we had a whole fleet of these!)
Newer models are better. I'm sure software updates have fixed a lot of the palm detection issues. But similar situation with Windows laptops, PC notebook manufacturers are 20 years behind Apple on trackpads.
I guess the real question is - why is Flutter so resource heavy and slow?
We live in an age of algorithmic optimisation. Surely it should be unremarkable that a cheap computer can run modern services?
Not sure you actually read the thread or not but the point was that Flutter actually ended up working great on a $100 machine even when it was compiled to JavaScript and run inside a browser.
That $100 machine is more powerful than some CAD workstations we had fifteen years ago. A Celeron N4020 is hardly a powerhouse by modern standards, but it'll beat a 15 year old Xeon with the same core count hands down and doesn't even need a fan.
It's terrible how we have such low expectations of hardware just because it's cheap. Cheap hardware has become incredibly powerful but its owners are forced to struggle with laggy, bloated applications because "well, it's cheap, what did you expect".
That Flutter app looks like it's running better than probably 95% of popular SPA webapps I experience on a daily basis... I know the bar isn't very high
The charts demo stutters on my gaming PC in Firefox...
> This thing is powered by a processor named after a salad vegetable
I'm guessing that's a joke because Celeron sounds like celery?
It's actually named after Latin celer, "fast, swift, quick": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/celer#Latin
People who put celery in salads are psychopaths.
I learned to code on a machine like this. It was a $200 Chromebook (9 years ago!) But I was able to install Linux, first with Crouton, later GalliumOS and learn Ruby and JS on it just fine.
So what's really funny is that I've done a lot of stuff with older hardware like this. I use caprover on a cloud provider and then add extra nodes at home with cheap laptops that I've collected over the years.
Sorry to bring this out of the blue, but I can't resist.
The developer in these tweets is surprised that this Chromebook can run Flutter applications. This just shows how bloated and slow software development has become. Why wouldn't a low-powered device such as this run an application without a problem? I guess when you're developing and testing on thousand dollar computers, you don't really consider all the millions (likely billions) of people running low-end computers such as these.
I’m not sure what you think he was doing with that machine to begin with but he basically runs the Flutter project and was testing it with a low end device precisely because that is important to him to know how it performs for users on low end hardware. Kind of the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Yes, the fact that he's testing using that device is a good thing. But having software run fast on low-end computers shouldn't be a surprise, and I was just addressing how much we've lowered our standards for optimized software; unrelated to what he's doing. But I guess the way I wrote that, I was putting a lot of blame unto him.
Flutter btw is quite good for that, at least the app side of things (author was focused on web). I test our flutter app regularly with an old underpowered phone and it always worked well, with performance only getting better with newer versions - probably the project's work against shader stutters helps old devices as well.
in the EU
159EUR ... 250EUR ...
https://geizhals.de/?fs=Chromebook++Celeron+N4020&hloc=at&hl...
Cannot find anything less than $300 AUD in Australia (equivalent $180 USD). Any recommendations for how I can find a bargain?
I read that thread on Twitter earlier today. Great stuff.
I bought a Lenovo Duet 2 last year - similar comments: except for my phone, the Duet could replace all of my devices, at a drastically low cost. Except, while it does everything, the CPU and memory are weak. If I were poor, it could easily be my only device and do everything I need. But, I am not poor and have 2 Mac laptops, 2 iPad Pros, and a really nice System76 Linux laptop. Still, the Duet is amazing for the money. Chromebooks are great generally for security and low effort admin, and the Linux containers handy - but, in using Google products it is really important to carefully set privacy and data sharing options.
'For Less Than a Tank of Gas'.
That's something to think about right there.
I wonder what landfill alot of these things will end up on in a few years.
Be good to see more framework style stuff with a focus on long term usage.
Google doesn't want you to think about the longevity of the cheaply manufactured laptops they have OEMs peddle which have very hard expiration dates to receiving browser updates. Embrace the cheapness! /s
It's 8 years and the browser is being separated from the OS
I suspect Chromebooks will last longer than el cheapo Windows PCs. When a "disposable" $100 computer lasts six years... a $1,000 computer won't last 60 years. You'd have to show that e-waste has an incredibly high cost to justify that thinking.
Everything is dependent on the user. It has updates until June 2027. Assuming the author keeps it will last 5 years.
Sure there some thinkpad stalewarts or desktop (using 500W power) that are running from decades. But these devices have puny chargers, less electricity - just works.
May be less local power is OK.
Yall are trying to make me feel bad who just bought Apple MBP 15 inch, i7, 16GB RAM, 256 SSD to learn HTML and CSS.
What's the power consumption of a device like this? Can you flash Ubuntu on it? What about Pop OS!?
Typically, you can install linux if you can get a new firmware - this depends on the device in question [1]. I've done this on a couple of ChromeOS devices in the past and installed GalliumOS [2]. You may be able to install other OSes, but I found GalliumOS worked well on the C720p I installed it on, and actually used it for about a year on one where I'd upgraded the storage to something larger. You can't get away from it being a slightly cheap machine, but it's great to have something which you're not going to mind if it gets lost or broken.
[1] - https://mrchromebox.tech/#devices
[2] - https://galliumos.org/
'm not going to lie -- this screen really is quite hard on the eyes. It's a step down if your normal laptop costs 25X AS MUCH
what does he mean. is is blurry or too bright?
Yes, computers get way cheaper when you exclude windows and name brand parts.
He means too blurry. Any Chromebook under $200 will have a 1366x768 resolution display.
I bought the Lenovo 10e tablet for $100 ($90+case) and it has 1920x1200 display. Trade offs: 10.1 inch display, mediatek cpu, tablet (no stand/keyboard).
Not the normal price (seeing $334 now), but that was direct from Lenovo.
Can anyone comment on external displays? The last time I tried this was about 5 years ago. I had a Samsung chromebook which was a great little device, but the font rendering connected to an external display was too terrible.
All devices these days are very clear. Sure you cannot hookup 3 X 4K screens. But 1 X 4K should suffice.
>A few minor stutters
I consistently get a single stutter around the March 2016 mark when doing a page reload even on pretty powerful hardware.
...but I see not when scrolling the timeline back, suggesting some sort of caching issue perhaps
I recommend a $200 Lenovo. It's tough to beat the quality.
I wish there was a cheapish Chromebook with a 120 Hz display. I'd use it mostly as a dumb terminal but I really don't want to buy 60 Hz screens anymore.
Now we can do One Laptop Per Child. [1]
[1] The project originally aimed for a price of 100 US dollars. In May 2006, Negroponte told the Red Hat's annual user summit: "It is a floating price. We are a nonprofit organization. We have a target of $100 by 2008, but probably it will be $135, maybe $140."[32] A BBC news article in April 2010 indicated the price still remained above $200: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child
As it happens, there's one on eBay right now for $99.
Was reading a book on this "The Charisma Machine" about the precocious child heh. Ideals vs. reality.
This reads like an advertisement and the constant comparisons with Apple products is weird. I can only assume the comparisons are being made because he or the people around him use very expensive Macbooks, but It doesn't help that this thread was written by the submitter and that he happens to be an engineer at Google talking about how great this cheap Chromebook is.
Looking past that, It's good for developers to have some low end hardware to test their software on and I think that every web developer should be required to test their applications on hardware comparable to this, if not even less powerful.
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Pretty sure that's for HN comments, not submissions?
The author is the submitter, as the comment itself says.
I read this the Mac comparisons as “compared to what I normally use as my daily driver at work which is a very high end MBP with a very different price point” which is far more innocent
That's nice, but Chromebooks are designed to become e-waste after a period of only a few years (updates stop after the device gets to be a few years old).
Most laptops become e-waste after a few years. Want an example? Macbooks before 2017 which no longer get any more major system updates and run as slow as turtle compared to the latest ones.
macOS Catalina is still receiving security updates and supports devices from 2012 and later. Not receiving new features after 5 years hardly makes a device e-waste.
Not really. I’m still using 2013 MBAs daily, and they’re pretty snappy. I do keep them on a cool, old Yosemite, though.
Amazingly, I herd a couple of 2013 Asus T-100 that run Win10 OK, on 2GB RAM I think. Mostly they only stand and wait nowadays.
I'm using a 2015 Macbook which is still totally adequate for every task I use it for, other than intense DAW stuff.
I'm still using my mid-2012 11-inch macbook air. My new M2 air is shipping this week, but my old one is still good for a lot of things.
My C302 flip chromebook was released in 2017 and is currently downloading the 4th OS update this year (rebooting after I post this).
And unlike almost every other device I've owned, it's still as snappy as the day I bought it. Plus now it also runs Android and Linux apps to boot. I use it mainly for golang and python development in VS code.
I've had two over relatively few years. Both became paperweights. Cheap chromebooks are not worth wasting money.
You can't just run normal linux on them?
With some tinkering, yes you can.
On many you can - see my answer elsewhere on this thread.
I guess it depends on how you define "few". These days, Chromebooks get 7 years from the day of release. Google seems to be fairly generous with some models and extends support beyond that.
This page lists all the models and their expiration dates:
https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en
I personally have the original Lenovo Duet as a cheap tablet / laptop. Paid ~$200 in 2020 and support will officially end in 2028. Not bad. As good as Apple or Windows 11.
Once official support ends, there's still a couple of options left. Some old Chromebooks can use Chrome OS Flex. Some of the newer Chromebooks have the option of updating Chrome independently of the OS. Thus allowing full security updates in the browser even after the OS is no longer updated for that machine.
They are, but for this one, that date is pretty far in the future. From the Q&A section of the product listing ( https://www.bestbuy.com/site/questions/lenovo-chromebook-3-1... )
> This Lenovo Chromebook 3 11 model number 82BA001FUS, will continue to receive Google Automatic updates through June 2027.
> Answered by Lenovo Product Expert 2 months ago
I bought a ASUS CXB170CKA-212.BCLN6 Chromebook in March 2022 (for USD150; it's not a high-end model). According to ASUS, "The Chrome OS AUE(Auto Update Expiration) date [for this model] is June 2029."[0]
I consider 7 years to be many more than "a few years".
[0] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/questions/asus-17-3-chromebook-...
Assuming the machine still works, unscrew the bootloader screw, wipe and put regular Linux on.
Can this be done for all models? My impression was that this is no longer possible in many cases.
Just like Chromeboxes, some models require the removal of a screw or a jumper while others need a special USB cable (cheap and easy to diy). I don't know about other models preventing the unlock, but if they do exist I would avoid them at any cost.
You can find here if your model is supported: https://mrchromebox.tech/#devices
You do not need the special cable.
Just disconnect the battery. Connect power adapter. Power ON. Follow https://mrchromebox.tech
You can easily unlock them and install a real operating system. I don't have any Chromebooks but plenty of 1st/2nd generation Chromeboxes -the hardware and specs are pretty much the same- and after "liberating" them they became pretty good platforms for many tasks. One of them in fact displaced permanently my Raspberry PI 4 as Kodi media player.
For more information: https://mrchromebox.tech/
They have guaranteed support longer than Apple devices. And unlocked bootloaders so you can extend support yourself, unlike Apple devices.
Curious how much it cost to build for Lenovo, because since it gets user data, that's how it's being "financed".
it's like 800x what an ARM SBC gets you. fuck ARM, mass incompetency. (new Qualcomm Wear 5: a 10 year old Cortex A53... get out. how is an ancient design the "low power" go-to?)
i'm so glad x86 has a basic self respecting low-end that does ok. i have a Chuwi Lapbook 12.3 that- 5 years ago- was a similar-ish kit for <$250 (but a 2k screen). everything worked out of box in Debian. it's just absurd what a dumb stupid awful terrible just-emerging rk3588 costs (much worse A76 cores+puny cores), by compare, to these much much much better x86 systems, that have keyboards, storage, displays to boot. risc-v is no better. i detest the lack of real competition. how has this marketplace rotted & ossified in place so, been so noncompetitive for so long?
there's just no one to keep a reasonable low end other than Intel. i love love love & wanted wanted wanted to get some AMD 1-liter mini-pcs, but they just never became available, and prices spiraled up and up and up. there's still no competition for a reasonable computer compared to what Intel offers us. this world is in huge denial.