avalys 12 days ago

The most ridiculous thing about FSD is that there are people who paid $10,000 extra on their lease financing to pre-purchase FSD on their leased Model S/Y/3, drove the entire period of the 3-year lease without ever seeing any functionality, then returned their car to Tesla without receiving any refund. Tesla then resold the cars without FSD unless the new buyers paid for the scam again.

Astonishing that they haven’t been sued over this. What a joke.

  • dhsysusbsjsi 12 days ago

    I own one and I'm not paying Elon $10k to beta test his product. Plus in my country it's worse than USA, by a lot. The highway lane keeping (which every high end car has these days) works okay and is 95% of what you need anyway to reduce workload and increase safety. And even that has its limitations: it will crash into the back of a car parked in your lane and won't go around it - instead preferring to stay in the exact middle of the lane. When you are driving straight and lane markings from a T intersection merge into your lane, it gets super confused and swerves everywhere, unable to determine it was in its original lane. It cannot handle anything more than a light corner; a medium corner and it will start to depart the lane. If a car crosses in front (turning into a side street), it brakes aggressively, not able to calculate the car has zero chance of being hit.

    • dhsysusbsjsi 12 days ago

      Plus the "upgrades" not able to be sold with the car, is a massive punch in the gut.

  • duckkg5 12 days ago

    I own one and am glad they are getting flack. hopefully someone will compel them to make it right.

  • xattt 11 days ago

    > Tesla then resold the cars without FSD unless the new buyers paid for the scam again.

    Are there any historical or modern-day equivalents of this form of transaction?

    • vba616 11 days ago

      I have the impression IBM started doing this sort of thing with its mainframes, oh, a half century or more ago?

  • omarforgotpwd 12 days ago

    The Full Self-Driving package on Teslas gives you access to a number of features including autopark, auto lane change, navigate on autopilot, green light chime, traffic light and stop sign control, summon, smart summon, an update to the latest car computer, as well as the city streets Beta. Just not true to say they received no functionality. I paid $7,000 for it on my last car and it's incredible. It can often do entire drives with no human input. And not just simple drives, but some pretty complex scenarios too.

    • mark242 12 days ago

      > It can often do entire drives with no human input. And not just simple drives, but some pretty complex scenarios too.

      This is just patently false. I have been in the beta for months, and I have yet to have "an entire drive" without having to disengage. FSD behaves like a fifteen-year-old who has just gotten their learner's permit and has zero long-term memory.

      Any intersection that has a dedicated right-turn lane, when that lane comes out of a widening right lane (as most of them do), FSD will fail on, and will at the very last moment swerve to make the lane change, endangering human drivers coming up from behind, who are correctly getting into the space on the right. Every single time. I cannot count the number of times that a left turn onto a road with a slightly raised middle divider (planters, whatever) will fail. Every single time. At a four-way stop sign FSD does not know when it has the right-of-way and will always defer to every other car. This often leaves you sitting waiting for the intersection to completely clear before FSD will decide to proceed. It took me exactly 48 hours with FSD to realize that Tesla isn't close.

      "Green light chime", come on.

      • Slartie 12 days ago

        > "Green light chime", come on.

        My 20 year old car also has that feature, and it is seriously useful, it's not a joke at all! It even has 3D spatial audio, as the chime seems to come from somewhere behind the trunk. And it has an incredible number of different melodies, I haven't exhausted them all yet.

        There's a nasty bug in it though, and the manufacturer hasn't ever fixed it: when there's no other car waiting behind my car, the feature somehow won't work.

        • cwillu 11 days ago

          Meh, it's a common feature that should IMO be banned. Twice now I've had it physically jar me while the light was still red!

      • nunez 7 days ago

        FSD isn't perfect, but it's miles and miles better than the basically nothing we have from the rest of the industry

    • simion314 12 days ago

      Ah, so if FSD included at least some working item like say a working game on dashboard you can't ask for a refund on a false advertised system? I assume some of the FSD buyers bought it for the FSD part.

  • nunez 7 days ago

    They paid $10k for a package that included a set of features available at time of purchase. That they did not receive future functionality post-lease is irrelevant.

  • onethought 10 days ago

    As oppose to VW charging 5k for "Auto parking" - no one seems to mind that. But 10k for Auto Parking, Summon, Enhanced Auto Pilot and maybe future autonomy is unacceptable!?

    It's like people forget the rest of the car industry when talking about Tesla.

    • nunez 7 days ago

      It's because people are losing their minds over the feature set being called Full Self Driving despite it being not that (right now)

rzimmerman 12 days ago

I've had a great experience with Autopilot. It does what's advertised - maintain speed, follow the car in front of me, stay in the lane and stop if necessary. It can even do more than that, like change lanes and follow exits. It's always healthy to question the safety record and Tesla needs to be more open about incidents with Autopilot enabled. But when operated properly (keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention) it's great and I certainly don't feel deceived.

I understand that many people are confused by the name. I get the argument that aircraft autopilot has a lot of the same constraints, but there are plenty of people who hear "Autopilot" and don't understand the disambiguation between a hands-on assist system, vague rumors that "Teslas drive themselves", and "Full Self Driving". An appropriate remedy is to change the name or put heavy disclaimers on. But it doesn't feel intentionally deceptive like Full Self Driving.

Full Self Driving is a huge mess and there should absolutely be more regulatory action or class action. I paid $10k for the language in the article - get in your car and it drives you where you want to go. Every 8-10 months it's only another year away. I'm not 100% convinced that what Musk claims is even possible with the hardware on my car at this point.

The FSD beta is fun but terrifying and not useful. It drives like a 15 year old and I've never had a single drive where I haven't taken over, either for safety or because the car was holding up traffic. It's also important not to confuse safety (it rarely tries to drive me into a solid object!) with actual usability (it consistently gets confused and blocks other cars in traffic). It's not a few updates away, it's fundamentally not even close to full autonomy. It's not what I bought and it's absolutely false advertising to take $7-12k and just push out the deadline indefinitely.

  • drewg123 12 days ago

    I agree 100%, but I'd say the FSD beta drives like a 75 year grandparent that's never held a license. It is mostly over-cautious and is constantly holding up traffic, due to being shy to pull out, make left turns, etc. But its also totally missed stop signs, and cut people off. My 16yo son, after 1 month of holding a learners permit, is far superior to FSD.

    Oddly, they BOTH drive far to close to parked cars on unmarked city streets when there is no oncoming traffic. I normally drive right down the middle to leave space in case a door opens, and I've tried to instill that in my son.

    • CharlesW 12 days ago

      > Oddly, they BOTH drive far to close to parked cars on unmarked city streets when there is no oncoming traffic. I normally drive right down the middle to leave space in case a door opens, and I've tried to instill that in my son.

      In many U.S. states, even on unmarked streets you must always stay on the right side of two-way roads.

      • LocalH 12 days ago

        I feel like they were referring to intra-lane position

      • vba616 11 days ago

        Two way city streets don't have to be, and often aren't, wide enough for two lanes of traffic to pass at once.

        A thing that narrows the effective width is people parking on both sides or double parking.

        Anyway, are you saying that it is legal to pass someone on a road with a dotted yellow line, but never on an unmarked street?

  • LeoPanthera 12 days ago

    At least you even have the beta. I bought it back when it was 8K, and I'm unable to qualify for FSD because I live at the top of a hill with a tight twisty road, and no mattter how slowly I drive (slowly enough that people behind me get annoyed), the "safety score" considers that unsafe driving and I get dinged. No FSD for me.

    If I could refund it, I would, since there seems to be no way for me to get it.

    • Fatnino 12 days ago

      Seems like you need to lend the car to a friend who lives in the flatlands who can get the score up for you.

      But really there's no need. Any modern Toyota has most of these same features but doesn't try to pass them off as "self driving". Adaptive cruise, lane keeping, blindspot checking. Makes freeway driving a breeze.

      • willxinc 12 days ago

        All the features you mentioned are part of regular (included) Autopilot, not Enhanced, or FSD.

      • onethought 10 days ago

        Toyota has nothing like FSD, Enhanced Autopilot and it's version of Autopilot is closer to Tesla's passive lane-assist technology. Nothing like the rail-like feeling of Tesla Autopilot

    • rzimmerman 11 days ago

      Honestly the only reason I was so early in the beta is that I used to do a lot of freeway driving for work. Miles on autopilot counted as a perfect score, so I'd just try to leave autopilot on the whole time.

    • morder 12 days ago

      Not that it really matters since it's really not worth it but in the most recent <whatever> thing musk had he mentioned that anybody will be able to request fsd by the end of the year. Not sure if that means you need a safety score or not.

  • toast0 12 days ago

    You should probably talk to a lemon law attorney if your car is defective. If you paid for heated seats and they said hmmm maybe later, you'd ask them to refund the seats or take the car back and if they refused, you'd talk to an attorney. Same thing here.

adoxyz 12 days ago

Good. FSD beta is unsafe and I can't believe they actually released it to the public. The videos on YouTube don't account for the actual experience of being in an FSD operated car and let me tell you it's a pretty scary experience.

  • jamiek88 12 days ago

    I can’t believe they charge over $12k for that half baked, under resourced, buggy pile of crap.

clintonb 12 days ago

I like Autopilot, but FSD is too error-prone, so I don't use it. I will gladly accept a refund of the $7K (plus tax) I spent. At a minimum, Tesla should treat FSD as a license that can be transferred to other cars so folks aren't stuck in older vehicles waiting for FSD to finally (if ever) work.

  • lumost 12 days ago

    FSD capable is a scam and should be treated at such. I thought about purchasing a Tesla in 2016 when they said FSD would be 1-2 years away. If I had gone through with that purchase, the car would be almost 7 years old. Given a generous reliability expectation of 10 years it would be unlikely that the car would ever receive a functional version of FSD. Resulting in a net loss to the consumer of some 18k (assuming a ten percent interest rate, if you go by typical American consumer debt rates the cost should be 65-140k)

rvz 12 days ago

> The agency alleges the electric carmaker misled customers with advertising language on its website describing Autopilot and Full Self-Driving technologies as more capable than they actually are.

Not really a surprise to see the deception scam that Tesla has done with their false advertising with both autopilot and especially Fools Self Driving (FSD), as I have already said before.

With the countless videos showing both of these contraptions malfunctioning on the public roads, it is safe to say that they don't work reliably and this is even before mentioning the price increases on both of these features.

So essentially, customers are paying for a feature that doesn't work and is dangerous enough to put the driver and many other drivers on the road at risk.

Therefore, this dangerous contraption is an indefensible scam which is already being investigated by many regulators.

ncmncm 12 days ago

About time.

The FTC should be involved, too, and require refunds for anybody who wants one.

FSC, "full self-crashing".

And the NTSB.

sircastor 12 days ago

A friend’s son recently died in a Tesla-autopilot-related accident. My tolerance for Tesla’s antics have gone from annoyed onlooking to disgust.

Overall Automotive-related deaths not withstanding, people are being sold a lie and that’s resulting in deaths

kart23 12 days ago

they shouldn’t have allowed it to be released to the public. there’s videos of people just driving terribly and impeding the flow of traffic in the name of ‘testing fsd’. This stuff has very real impact on the public and drivers around it. I don’t give a shit if tesla drivers want to push the limits of ai, but don’t do it on public roads. slow and erratic driving make things unpredictable and much more dangerous for everyone on the road, even if FSD isn’t actively causing accidents.

JumpCrisscross 11 days ago

We have indicator lights for turns and stops. A standard external signal that a car is on cruise control or self driving may make sense to implement. I’m going to bike and drive differently if I know a car near me is being driven by a computer.

TomVDB 12 days ago

I wouldn’t trust FSD at all and there’s no way I’d ever pay for it, but I love autopilot.

What are Tesla falsely claiming about autopilot?

  • birdyrooster 12 days ago

    what if your uber driver turns it on?

hn_version_0023 12 days ago

Off-topic, but does anyone have links to Musk's statements about getting first to market with full self-driving, or poisoning the well for everyone? IIRC, I read that here at some point, but I don't seem to be able to locate it again.

gamblor956 12 days ago

The remedies proposed by the DMV if it prevails could be severe, including revocation of the company’s licenses to make or sell its cars in California.

Unlikely, but the likely remedy will be that Tesla needs to change the names of these features so that they aren't misleading to the general public.

  • sillystuff 12 days ago

    Changing the names to better reflect the reality of the product might help set safer expectations by Tesla owners. But, as a pedestrian and cyclist, I don't think it is enough.

    All car makes including Tesla that are offering advanced cruise control (e.g., lane following), should be required to geofence the feature with other conditions like weather taken into account too. If Tesla, Volvo, Ford, etc., have a product that works at an acceptable level on simple straight highways during daylight and clear weather conditions, then those are the only locations and conditions the advanced cruise control devices should be allowed to operate in.

    • martin_a 12 days ago

      This is already integrated, at least in my Hyundai Kona Electro.

      Lane holding assist and adaptive cruise control only works for speeds up to 170 km/h (which is also very near max speed for the electric version, to be honest), while you are holding the steering wheel and are giving active input and only if the weather is good enough.

      Failing to hold the wheel for some seconds or only "resting" your hands on it will trigger optical and visual warnings and will disable the assistance systems if you fail to act.

      I've also experienced that heavy rain or snow have disturbed the car so much that it wouldn't allow to activate the assistance systems due to the weather conditions.

      So, for some car brands it's already there.

      • odshoifsdhfs 12 days ago

        I just ordered the Kona EV (expecting delivery next week). What are your thoughts on it?

        As for the 'security' features you mentioned, my 2015 Mazda CX-5 did the same (just not sure about the weather as I don't remember driving it in very bad weather except for a snow trip but I didn't put any of those things on). Couple seconds no pressure, beep. A few more and disabled lane assist. It also warned me of driving fatigue by analysing my driving and other stuff. I always felt it was helping me by making me a 'better driver' and not actually trying to control the car.

        • martin_a 12 days ago

          > I just ordered the Kona EV (expecting delivery next week). What are your thoughts on it?

          I'm very, very happy after 2.5 years of having (leasing) it. I've got a pre 2020 model though, these are the points that are not good imho:

          - Got the big battery (64 kWh) but the internal charger is a small one (4.5 kW), so loading on normal wallboxes takes a long time. Newer models got a bigger charger (11 kW, I think), which is great. I can charge at work though, so no big deal for me most of the time as the car is standing around all day anyway.

          - Charging network data is outdated (EU model), so I don't use the internal navigation to find charging points. Lead me to non-existent chargers twice, won't happen a third time. That's sad because the integration is nicely done with "find a charging point along your route" when the battery level gets too low. Good idea, bad execution.

          - Android Auto is only available via a wired connection. So you're fiddling around with USB cables in your center console, then there's not a real good place to lay your smartphone down (with the usb cable sticking out! got an angled one now, still not perfect), something always dangles around in the middle there.

          - There's a little "the car is in D, be careful"-icon in the display. It stays on, even when you're driving 160 km/h on the Autobahn. I KNOW IT'S IN D. Would prefer to get that clutter out of the display, but that's a minor point.

          Besides that I think it's a great car. Lots of things have improved with the 2020 model, too, I think. The bigger charger (by default?!), Bluelink for remote connectivity, also I prefer the look of the newer models with the smooth front.

          I still have 2.5 years left till the end of my lease but I can totally see myself getting another Kona then.

          Also: The "Eco" drive mode normally provides you with enough acceleration for everything. But I'm guilty of sometimes using the "Sport" mode to embarass tailgaters or highly motorized cars. "Sport" mode is also great to shock people and push them in the seats who have never driven an electric car before. :-D

          Enjoy the car!

      • Dylan16807 12 days ago

        I don't really understand the point of constant lane assist if you have to be providing active input at all times?

        • martin_a 12 days ago

          As manicdee said it prevents you from drifting out of the lane.

          Also "active input" is possibly a bit of a stretch. The system checks whether you are providing some force "against" the motion of the steering wheel. It's not trying to steer away, it just tests if somebody is actually having a "strong" (another stretch) grip on the wheel.

          • Dylan16807 11 days ago

            > As manicdee said it prevents you from drifting out of the lane.

            Which is a perfectly good feature. But a system that just does that sounds like it's a safety backup system, not something that makes driving easier.

            > Also "active input" is possibly a bit of a stretch. The system checks whether you are providing some force "against" the motion of the steering wheel. It's not trying to steer away, it just tests if somebody is actually having a "strong" (another stretch) grip on the wheel.

            Okay, this gives me an entirely different impression then. To me "active input" means I'm following the lane. If I just have to keep a grip then I don't have to do the work and there's a clear value.

            • martin_a 11 days ago

              Yeah sorry, English is not my native language, sometimes I'm missing the right words and descriptions.

              You can let loose of the steering wheel and will keep you in the lane, too. But only for a few seconds...

        • manicdee 12 days ago

          When you are scanning mirrors and checking over your shoulder the car will steer itself without drifting out of the lane.

  • simion314 12 days ago

    That would open the road for lawsuits from customers then if Tesla is shown misslead them, at least lawsuits on how much Tesla needs to pay as damages. Not sure if the public could also ask for dfamages because alpha software is tested on the public roads

  • dangus 12 days ago

    Changing a name isn't enough when it comes to passenger safety.

    This isn't some web app where the consequences are a bad experience. Automakers aren't supposed to be allowed to put unsafe technology on the road regardless of marketing.

NorwegianDude 11 days ago

As I've said many times before, it's nowhere near to be reality. It won't be in the next five years either. Oh, and the Tesla Roadster that according to Elon/Tesla will be the worlds fastest? That too should be a thing by now according to Elon/Tesla. That will never happen.

At least people have earned good money by renting out their cars as robot taxis in the last years. Oh wait, that also never happened.

So many lies, so much false advertising.

throwaway5959 11 days ago

At least California is willing to call this bullshit out.

pengaru 12 days ago

Is this really the CA DMV's jurisdiction? Where's the CA DOT? How on earth is the DMV the best positioned agency to take Tesla to task on this egregious issue?

  • Animats 12 days ago

    Because the California DMV determines who gets to drive in California. The CA DMV licenses autonomous vehicles.[1] California was the first state to do this. There's a reasonable licensing system. Vehicle makers can apply for a license to autonomously test drive with a safety driver (easy to get, 50 companies are licensed), testing without a safety driver (harder to get, only 7 companies licensed), and deployment (only Neuro, Cruise, and Waymo have qualified.) Tesla's marketing materials imply that they are qualified to deploy autonomous vehicles. They're not.

    [1] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...

    • rajbot 12 days ago

      To add to this CA DOT (aka Caltrans) does not regulate motor vehicles.

      From https://dot.ca.gov/about-caltrans :

      > Caltrans manages more than 50,000 miles of California's highway and freeway lanes, provides inter-city rail services, permits more than 400 public-use airports and special-use hospital heliports, and works with local agencies

      Motor vehicles not under their jurisdiction

    • pengaru 10 days ago

      ah, I assumed since the federal DOT is responsible for things like qualifying street-legal equipment (e.g. DOT-legal headlamp housings, windshields, etc) the CA DOT was in a similar role at the state level. Could have sworn I'd read somewhere CA DOT simply reflects DOT regulations on such matters, but wouldn't the CA DOT still be responsible for enforcement if say Ford was selling new vehicles within CA with non-DOT headlamps?

  • namecheapTA 12 days ago

    I would argue that it's because DMV is in charge of car dealerships... But doesn't Tesla not have legal dealerships?

nr2x 11 days ago

About time.

ForHackernews 12 days ago

Next you'll be telling me McDonald's isn't really lovin' it!

trhway 12 days ago

False advertising it would be if it caused a reasonable man to believe that it is a full self-driving, isn't it? Well, show me a reasonable man who would believe that full self driving does exist today :)

  • lostsock 12 days ago

    The copy on the website is pretty damn clear[1]:


    Full Self-Driving Capability

    All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

    The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.


    It never once says or implies Full Self Driving is available now. Tesla intends it to really be "full self driving", when it's ready and has regulatory approval.

    [1] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

    • Dylan16807 12 days ago

      They also advertise "Full Self Driving Beta" as being available right now. An actual beta would be a hundred times closer in capability.

      • lostsock 11 days ago

        While there are obviously cases that FSD beta can't currently handle well, there are countless YouTube videos where FSD Beta is able to do 20+ minute commutes with zero disengagements.

        100 times more capable would be 2,000 minutes, or 33 hours. Do you really think the beta, which is an opt in closed program that you have to qualify for and has caveats and warnings, needs to be 100 times more capable before it's released?

        • Dylan16807 11 days ago

          It doesn't have to be 100 times more capable. It has to be 100 times closer to full self driving before it's really a "beta" of full self driving.

          As an analogy, let's say something is 30cm, and you want to get it to "almost a meter". If that's 95cm, then you need to get about 15 times closer. That means reducing the gap by a factor of 15. It doesn't mean you need 450cm.

          Though I'd be fine with your time metric too. I do want to get to the point where 33 hours without disengagements is routine before "full self driving" is talked about as almost done. I wouldn't want to require that before it's released at all, I just want an accurate name applied.

  • netsharc 12 days ago

    That's a bit like saying "you'd be an idiot if you believed these 3 words to mean what they mean!"...

    • trhway 12 days ago

      So buying "Star Blast" chewing gum what star one can expect to get blasted?

      It is like that guy drinking a beer and suing the beer producer for all those women and the military jet from that beer ads not materializing in his life.

      • netsharc 12 days ago

        > So buying "Star Blast" chewing gum what star one can expect to get blasted?

        You're being deliberately obtuse, IMO. Context matters. If we lived in a world where launching missiles into interstellar space is possible and a weapons company sells a rocket with this claimed capability, then I'd be wondering if this feature means it can actually make a star go supernova.

        To use your own logic: Tesla sells cars. It claims "full self driving". Oh wow, what activity should I expect this feature to be doing? And what object will the feature apply to?

      • vba616 11 days ago

        If you're talking about the hypothetical group of people that paid $10K extra specifically to get all that stuff in the beer ads, like an option package for their beer, then what most reasonable people expect is beside the point.

        Dumb or not, they were intentionally cheated out of a lot of money and it's documented.

      • throwaway5959 11 days ago

        > So buying "Star Blast" chewing gum what star one can expect to get blasted?

        This has to be the dumbest thing I’ve read on this site. Congrats I guess.

  • Vecr 12 days ago

    I think you could reasonably think self driving cars exist today, or at least driverless ones with only minimal outside control by humans during the actual drive, because self driving taxi services do exist, though only in well-mapped geofenced areas, and I would not be surprised if they drove all the routes with a test driver first. If they are fake, it's very convincing, as it's clearly not just someone with a TV and game controller a few miles away. A computer is clearly controlling the path of the car without human input for seconds at a time.

  • simion314 12 days ago

    Elon was tricky, he said is not FSD now, buy buy now and FSD will be ready in max 1 year, but if you wish you could make a survey and ask on Tesla subreddit if FSD customers are "Reasonable" and if they know that it is all a marketing thing and not actual full self driving and it will never be.

    Let me know if you made this survey I will watch the results.

  • dehrmann 12 days ago

    A court did decide that Musk can say what he wants because no one would reasonably believe him.

  • uoaei 12 days ago

    Go ahead, ask 100 people on the street, see what they say.

    • 988747 12 days ago

      You don’t even have to do a poll, there’s enough YouTube videos with the driver napping behind the wheel on a highway to prove that Tesla’s advertising is misleading

    • trhway 12 days ago

      Those people aren't buying Tesla.

      • namecheapTA 12 days ago

        I worked at a luxury dealership that also had a full electric. Teslas were constantly trade in by fancy people that were disillusioned by how terrible a Tesla is inside. Even to me as a car salesman, a Tesla is just a fancy commute car. It sure isn't a luxury vehicle. So get off your high horse.

      • KerrAvon 12 days ago

        You might be surprised. It’s not as exclusive a club as a Tesla owner might want it to be.