I recently watched the first few minutes of the first episode and was a bit surprised with Links behavior. I appreciate that the show was a product of its time, but the bad behavior of the game’s protagonist was appalling. Less than 4 minutes in And he’s an unrepentant peeping Tom.
But notice that he mostly hits the mobilins with his pillow, rather than actually kill them with his sword. We've sort of just flipped: sex was ok, but violence was not.
The opening scene is Link in a parapet above the princess. He comes out of the landing, gawking at the princess catcalling whistling, and then saying "Looking good princess, 'specially from this angle", with the direct implication he's able to see her breasts.
A fairy shows up with some clothing to the princess, saying "i told you princess, you should have put on a robe".
And this was sold as a kids show.
(at least the bevis and butthead overdub was well, more on point, for both the content AND the target audience.)
That is truly terrible. Not just from a "think of the children" perspective, but also from a "this doesn't fit the lore or the tone of the source material in the slightest" perspective.
I get it. It's hard to adapt a silent protagonist. But did they have to overcompensate so badly and make him an obnoxious sounding pervert?
I was furious about what Paramount did to Halo when they recently made that into a TV series (partly also for including the sexual desires and activities of the main character that were not accurate or relevant). But you know what?... at least I wasn't a Zelda fan in 1989.
Sometimes tight control over IP is a good thing. That's what I remind myself every time I'm sad there's no Half-Life 3 -- it's a shame there isn't more, but on the other hand at least we're not suffering from two mediocre reboots and an awful unfaithful TV series complete with a gratuitous Alyx-Gordon sex scene.
I haven't watched the Last of Us series yet but perhaps, considering the success of that and Sonic, the tide is turning on awful videogame adaptations. They'll never stop being mostly awful, but perhaps they'll stop being entirely awful.
> Sometimes tight control over IP is a good thing.
Nintendo learned this the hard way in the early 90s with the Super Mario Bros movie. I guess The Legend of Zelda wasn't cartoon wasn't enough to cause a stir.
If you're interested in a wild background story about IP, go watch Secret Galaxy's video on Captain N The Game master. It's fascinating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-81eImgppDY
a few observations on this topic, that recently have come up a lot.
Sorry if it's gonna be a bit long.
First of all, a bit of context.
Maybe people forgot what the 80s where like, especially late 80s, especially in USA, maybe they forgot what being kids was like, maybe they were not even born when these things aired.
At the times trends for people were not dictated by young girls half naked on tik tok, but by "the American dream" that in the 80s was to be a yuppie, that the "manual" said were like this
As you can see, yuppies were successful people who played tennis, yuppie women were blonde, of course, usually they stayed home anyway, because their husbands made a ton of money, thanks to cocaine.
That was the culture US projected back then, that's why people of my generation reject the idea that USA are culturally relevant, except for punk, that was the last really interesting subculture that the US produced, but that's another story for another time.
If you don't believe it, here it is "Das Yuppie handbuch", German edition.
Secondly, the shows were not for kids, the shows audience were kids parents, in this case their dads or older brothers, who represented almost entirely the demographic of people who knew what Zelda was and who she was and that no, Zelda's not the guy on the covert art of the videogame box.
So it reflected an US centric male culture, like the fact that Mario is Italian because Japanese are (and were even more at the time) kinda obsessed with Italy, but in USA, being an Italian plumber, they made him sound like this
He starts saying "Hey paesano" which is an idiomatic phrase mainly used in the South of Italy, that nobody uses anymore since a long time ago and those who did where simply mocking very old ways. I haven't heard it since I was a kid, in the late 70s. Of course Mario being Italian with black moustache must be from Naples, right? and he obviously knows how to make a pizza, right? every Italian know how, even if they are plumbers.
This basically to say that in USA those products were a reflection of the culture people were living in, men were assholes, Italians were Italo-Americans not real Italians, Chinese lived in Chinatowns and Japanese took pictures of everything.
The good news is, kids don't get the references.
As an example, my nephew she's 4 years old and she watches Masha and the Bear, which is a Russian product BTW. There's an episode where Bear encounters a female bear and wants to know her. He takes some flowers and a box of chocolates and goes to introduce himself. While he's going Masha realizes that Bear has chocolates and wants to eat them so she tries every trick on the book and in the end she eats them all and Bear is left with no more chocolates to bring to his romantic interest.
Long story short: what my nephew got is that you don't ever eat all the chocolates, because before eating the last one you should ask if someone else wants it, because it's good manners.
She did not understand that it's a metaphor of the difficulty of having a romantic life for parents with kids, especially single parents.
That's something we get, because we are adult and have already gone through it or witnessed it in other's people lives.
Why do you say the target audience were parents? Everyone I hear talking about the show were kids when it aired. At the time animation was always for kids. Before the Simpsons there was no adult animation and even when that came out it was actually even a bit confusing for some. I think it’s just that Link’s behaviour in the show was socially acceptable at the time, but it isn’t anymore.
I don't have a stake here, but one should definitely differentiate between a full featured adult animation which ran in the cinemas and sometimes on TV, just like a regular films (and in 03:00 AM block), and a syndicated, every week, for years, animation running when the kids are already in the bed but you still sit on couch with a half killed six-pack.
The Flintstones were on television, in a prime-time slot, three decades before the Simpsons. Wikipedia lists more North American adult TV shows from before 1990.[1]
The Simpsons are important in the history of animation, but however you look at it they were definitely not the first to explore animation for adults. They weren’t the first in their own country, nor were they first on a regular non-kids schedule on TV, nor were they the first successful case.
The first one is actually Japanese and the second is an independent production. Sure, it was not unheard of. But I think the Simpsons is what made it mainstream. My point was that adults were not sitting down in front of the TV to watch cartoons (and specially not ones based off of a video game). That was associated with kids.
Yes, I know. I don’t think that’s relevant but it’s because I thought you might nitpick that I added a USA example.
> and the second is an independent production.
Why does that matter? It was a worldwide hit and is an important piece of movie history, it’s not an obscure college movie.
> Sure, it was not unheard of.
It’s considerably more than “not unheard of”, I specifically chose well-known authors with well-known works. Ralph Bakshi alone directed eight adult-oriented feature film animations before the Simpsons was a thing. Those are far from the only examples.
Sleeping Beauty is a cartoon adaptation of an opera. Its extremely boring for kids to watch, but its pretty great for adults. Arguably its "kid friendly", but only in the same way that the Nutcracker is kid-friendly. Its not really the kind of entertainment aimed at children though (like say, Peter Pan was).
---------
Fantasia is also for adults IMO, though kid-friendly (no excessive violence/gore/sex... but a relatively dry musical performance though highly imaginative)
---------
And Looney Tunes is also filled to the brim with opera / stage references that no child could possibly understand. It was clearly aimed at adults. It does leverage lowbrow humor just in case the audience doesn't "get" the musical / stage references... so I guess its more kid friendly than these other examples.
I disagree, this show aired on a block of Nintendo-related content. I would have been 4-7 when it was airing. My parents never watched it.
FWIW I remember disliking the Zelda series at the time, went back and watched it when I was in my early 20s and remember liking it ironically (so-bad-it's-good), and watching scenes from it again now, I think maybe I was too generous in my 20s
> FWIW I remember disliking the Zelda series at the time, went back and watched it when I was in my early 20s and remember liking it ironically (so-bad-it's-good), and watching scenes from it again now, I think maybe I was too generous in my 20s
Yeah, that's what growing up is usually like, there are a lot of products that I've re-watched over the years and completely changed my mind on them.
Take as one example "The Wizard" or "Thrashin'" were the good guy was a young Josh Brolin (LOL)
but the real skater heroes (Caballero, Tony Hawk, Hosoi) were depicted as the bad guys
It is unconceivable today because that idea of the white blonde guy from a good family that gets all the girls is a Republican parents of Reagan era's dream and luckily died with him, people who actually loved skate culture and made it popular hated that life style.
Skateboarding is now pretty normal, my t-shirt from the early 90s "skateboarding is not a crime" would make people laugh today.
that's why I believe we should not judge the things of the past with today's standards, because we are totally different people and live in a totally different society.
We know what was back then, but we couldn't possibly imagine what would be like in the future.
And there are also many things kids of today don't even consider because they are not pop, they are not fresh, they don't talk about them at school.
I've watched a lot of stuff only because it was what other kids constantly talked about, but did not really like them, but didn't say.
In 20 years times most of what kids look at today will be considered "trash that did not age very well".
So, to conclude, thanks god many things from the 80s did not live up to their past fortunes, because they were really bad and reflected an US-centric culture that wasn't so not-to-be-missed after all.
Every kids show are made so parents would let them watch. One could argue that a show without sexual innuendo would score better. So, I’m not sure if the decision to include that was really to get parents onboard.
I was suggesting Link’s behaviour is no longer socially acceptable. Not sure if that anime has a character similar to Link. Does it? If it does and it’s very popular I’d be amazed it’s not being called off more often.
That howling wolf cartoon is also a bit dated. It objectifies women. Regarding Link’s behaviour, I’m not sure people really thought he was a moron at the time. Maybe a bit of a loser at times, but his behaviour was not really frowned upon at the time. Growing up I’ve met plenty of men that would make the same kind of jokes and behave in very similar fashion and everyone thought it was funny.
Having lived through the 80's, and being the target audience for this Mario/Zeldo show, I reject most of your comments.
Yuppies, or Boomers in their prime as working office class people, have nothing to do with this. Perhaps, other than being parents.
This show was shown during the cartoon time during each day, usually either being 6-8:30a, or 2:30p-5p. This when Mario played. On Fridays it was Zelda. That's when this abomination played (Mario was also pretty terrible in its own right). And note, unless one of your parents were stay-at-home (usually the woman in those days), your parents weren't watching it. You, the kid, was. And likely unsupervised. After all, it's a kids show during the cartoon block. "How bad could it be?"
And with the "kids not getting the references", you do not teach boys that cat-calling is good. Nor do you teach that demanding "affection" from women is good. You know you have problems when the Beavis and Butthead version is more accurate and true to what's really being said. We all know B&B is wrong, and it's funny because of that. When we're comparing official "Looking good princess, 'specially from this angle", versus Beavis' "Nice tits" , they're functionally the same thing. And it wasn't an innunendo in either case.
> Then, of course, there is the characterization of Link, which is a rather mixed bag. To their credit, the writers were successful in imbuing Link with a distinct, memorable character. Unfortunately, that character was appalling. I’m sure the writers were going for some kind of “lovable scamp” vibe with him, but he really just came off as a whiny, obnoxious, barely competent creep with a catchphrase I can only imagine was written into his character bio in the series bible, because it is used at least once per episode. At least. However, despite the fact that this irritating catchphrase that no one ever thought was charming or funny has become an indelible part of this franchise, it is not the worst thing about the cartoon’s Link. I, for one, am far more bothered by all the sexual harassment.
> And there is a lot of it. A LOT. Link is a straight up sexist creeper. He makes lewd comments at Zelda about her cleavage, harasses her for a kiss, treating her affection like some kind of commodity that he’s owed for his service (to be fair, she’s equally horrible by referring to it as a reward at the end of one episode), asks her to kiss him twice after she initially refuses, and even goes so far as to coerce her by physically preventing her from getting away from him until she gives him what he wants. And that’s just in the first episode.
No, Link was just designed to be off-putting and gross with women so Zelda hates him and slaps him for it all the time. I think that style was fairly common at the time.
It's worth noting that this is a product of a time when everyone was competing to be the most "extreme". Sonic and Mario were both being rebranded to resonate with 90s audiences, so it's not surprising to see that come through here too.
It's just fascinating that Link behaves like Johnny Knoxville rather than... well, any chivalry role-model.
Mentally I'm sorta conflating the late-80s and early-90s video game commercials, but there was definitely a period where Nintendo was attempting some rebranding a-la the Mario Brothers Super Show and the Zelda cartoon.
Most of the time I just lurk without commenting, but since you were so alarmed. I wasted time looking at the bit you were referring to. You are exaggerating quite a bit.
You are free to make your own judgements, but if this is what you consider appalling, then bar is pretty low.
My only memory of watching this show on TV as a child is of how utterly unheroic Link was, and that bothered me as someone who played the games. I have no nostalgia for this show, and I’m glad it didn’t do better. If it did and this became Link’s main characterization I don’t think I would’ve touched another Zelda game.
> Nintendo wanted us to base the show on the new game [Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link], because, you know, it’s great marketing. What they did was give me the Japanese version of the game, because it wasn’t out here yet. I didn’t know anything about the game when I started. I’d never played them. I wasn’t a gamer or anything. That’s how I learned how the characters move, the sound effects, the music. I got to be able to do the games all the way through pretty quickly, as a matter of fact, because I knew all the shortcuts. I could get through both of them in less than two minutes, probably. It’s pretty fast.
This should probably be two hours? Which is still pretty impressive. Speed running records for the two combined would be just over 1h.
I think they were just mentioning some catchphrases that got stuck in their head at the time, not presenting a grand theory of everything based on cartoons.
I pity da fool. I am the victim of similar phenomena from other 90's games like The Legend of Kyrandia, Indiana Jones and Thw Temple of Doom, Myst, Power Pete, MathBlaster, ShufflePuck Cafe, and Sim City v1.0, Marathon, and movies like Dumb and Dumber, Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, and CKY2K.
I enjoyed it at the time but given the current political climate cannot recommend to others. I continue to hesitantly and remorsefully enjoy, an indemnible stain on my soul.
Some of the jokes and themes therein are now widely considered racist, forbidden, or otherwise *-ist, and were founded on now banned or socially unacceptable concepts, assumptions, or thoughts.
Obvious cases are the transphobia portrayed at the end of Ace Venture: Pet Detective when Jim Carey's character reacted to the Chief of Poice having taken measures to conceal her physical gender identity, or the manipulating a blind child into buying a dead bird with it's head duct taped to the neck in Dumb and Dumber.
It comes down to respecting others and I get that. I consider myself a supporter of all well-intentioned human beings and intelligent species and entities at large, yet I still can't stop laughing about all kinds of immature stuff, including when myself or my spouse step in dog crap.
I'm sensitive but generally have tended towards trying to focus on self-acceptance and surrounding myself with people who are understanding but also won't put up with too much.
You're doing the right thing. Some of the humor you enjoyed is dated, based on outdated ideas and stereotypes that perpetuate marginalization, othering, and dehumanization of certain groups and we should limit young people's exposure to that kind of material and, at a minimum, contextualize it for adults. And hey, maybe Ace Ventura needs to permanently go into the Warner Bros. Water Tower like Song of the South went permanently into the Disney Vault.
One of my favorite cartoon shows (and the source of the technical term "yak shaving"), The Ren and Stimpy Show, was created by an emotional abuser who eventually became a rapist of underage girls. I cannot really enjoy the show the same way anymore, in light of this knowledge. It's not "cancel culture", it's a natural reaction to material that, in retrospect, is disrespectful or was created by horrid people.
No he isnt. Keeping quiet when you think the pushed narrative is wrong is not the right thing. There is not a thing wrong with Ace Venture and if you think that’s “violent” then you are the problem not Ace Ventura. What the OP should do is push back against comments like yours who equate jokes we all laughed at with dehumanization.
Meh…I have Ace Ventura on my Plex and plan to show it to my 10 year old in a year or so. People can still enjoy things that weirdos on the internet consider “outdated”.
see also: an empirical analysis of how many "u"s the Internet thinks are in "excuuuuuse me, princess", by Ryan North (of Dinosaur Comics and other fine literature)
Interesting to know it was based partially on Zelda II. Maybe that's where the constant sexual harassment came from: at the conclusion of Zelda II Link and Zelda are seen to embrace (behind a nearly closed curtain).
I know you weren't the one who made the claim, but if this is what the commenter meant by weeb culture, I'm not sure how it has anything to do with, for example, Twilight Princess.
I haven’t played TP, though I’d like to. Also I love Zelda and I don’t think the IP is “ruined” like the OP said.
BoTW has some anime influences with a feminine but gender neutral Link, animal sexualization, and a few lolis. That being said, BoTW might be my favorite game of all time.
I don't really see what you're saying re: Purah, but I'll take your word for it. Mipha and Riju are both adults, though, aren't they?
If it's just about their designs, Riju has the same basic design that Gerudo have had since Ocarina of Time, and as for Mipha, I'll just link to Princess Ruto's concept art:
"The Legend of Beavis": Beavis and Butthead audio dubbed onto an episode of The Legend of Zelda cartoon:
https://archive.org/details/the-legend-of-beavis
I had only ever seen the Beavis version.
"Looking good princess, especially from this angle!" is the original line. Beavis version is, "Nice boobs, honey!"
I assumed the Beavis redub was a subversion of the original cartoon but it's basically just the same. Wild.
I love how you can see Beavis in the mirror. This is incredible.
Oh man I was thinking of this when I saw the thread, but I just remembered a vague parody, not many details.
I was going to be disappointed if this wasn't mentioned in this thread.
This is truly epic
I recently watched the first few minutes of the first episode and was a bit surprised with Links behavior. I appreciate that the show was a product of its time, but the bad behavior of the game’s protagonist was appalling. Less than 4 minutes in And he’s an unrepentant peeping Tom.
But notice that he mostly hits the mobilins with his pillow, rather than actually kill them with his sword. We've sort of just flipped: sex was ok, but violence was not.
[flagged]
You took your kids to see sexy men dancing???
You're not exagerating. Lordy.
https://youtu.be/OE4VkfYaP1w
The opening scene is Link in a parapet above the princess. He comes out of the landing, gawking at the princess catcalling whistling, and then saying "Looking good princess, 'specially from this angle", with the direct implication he's able to see her breasts.
A fairy shows up with some clothing to the princess, saying "i told you princess, you should have put on a robe".
And this was sold as a kids show.
(at least the bevis and butthead overdub was well, more on point, for both the content AND the target audience.)
That is truly terrible. Not just from a "think of the children" perspective, but also from a "this doesn't fit the lore or the tone of the source material in the slightest" perspective.
I get it. It's hard to adapt a silent protagonist. But did they have to overcompensate so badly and make him an obnoxious sounding pervert?
I was furious about what Paramount did to Halo when they recently made that into a TV series (partly also for including the sexual desires and activities of the main character that were not accurate or relevant). But you know what?... at least I wasn't a Zelda fan in 1989.
Sometimes tight control over IP is a good thing. That's what I remind myself every time I'm sad there's no Half-Life 3 -- it's a shame there isn't more, but on the other hand at least we're not suffering from two mediocre reboots and an awful unfaithful TV series complete with a gratuitous Alyx-Gordon sex scene.
I haven't watched the Last of Us series yet but perhaps, considering the success of that and Sonic, the tide is turning on awful videogame adaptations. They'll never stop being mostly awful, but perhaps they'll stop being entirely awful.
> Sometimes tight control over IP is a good thing.
Nintendo learned this the hard way in the early 90s with the Super Mario Bros movie. I guess The Legend of Zelda wasn't cartoon wasn't enough to cause a stir.
If you're interested in a wild background story about IP, go watch Secret Galaxy's video on Captain N The Game master. It's fascinating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-81eImgppDY
a few observations on this topic, that recently have come up a lot.
Sorry if it's gonna be a bit long.
First of all, a bit of context.
Maybe people forgot what the 80s where like, especially late 80s, especially in USA, maybe they forgot what being kids was like, maybe they were not even born when these things aired.
At the times trends for people were not dictated by young girls half naked on tik tok, but by "the American dream" that in the 80s was to be a yuppie, that the "manual" said were like this
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71D2rGrfMBL.jpg
but they were actually like this in reality
https://e.snmc.io/i/300/w/18fff75069e5b3ecfc6d558e0c59acd0/5...
"Lunch is for wimps."
As you can see, yuppies were successful people who played tennis, yuppie women were blonde, of course, usually they stayed home anyway, because their husbands made a ton of money, thanks to cocaine.
That was the culture US projected back then, that's why people of my generation reject the idea that USA are culturally relevant, except for punk, that was the last really interesting subculture that the US produced, but that's another story for another time.
If you don't believe it, here it is "Das Yuppie handbuch", German edition.
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71cli3Z17VL.jpg
Secondly, the shows were not for kids, the shows audience were kids parents, in this case their dads or older brothers, who represented almost entirely the demographic of people who knew what Zelda was and who she was and that no, Zelda's not the guy on the covert art of the videogame box.
So it reflected an US centric male culture, like the fact that Mario is Italian because Japanese are (and were even more at the time) kinda obsessed with Italy, but in USA, being an Italian plumber, they made him sound like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eutK6k9D-Yk
He starts saying "Hey paesano" which is an idiomatic phrase mainly used in the South of Italy, that nobody uses anymore since a long time ago and those who did where simply mocking very old ways. I haven't heard it since I was a kid, in the late 70s. Of course Mario being Italian with black moustache must be from Naples, right? and he obviously knows how to make a pizza, right? every Italian know how, even if they are plumbers.
This basically to say that in USA those products were a reflection of the culture people were living in, men were assholes, Italians were Italo-Americans not real Italians, Chinese lived in Chinatowns and Japanese took pictures of everything.
The good news is, kids don't get the references.
As an example, my nephew she's 4 years old and she watches Masha and the Bear, which is a Russian product BTW. There's an episode where Bear encounters a female bear and wants to know her. He takes some flowers and a box of chocolates and goes to introduce himself. While he's going Masha realizes that Bear has chocolates and wants to eat them so she tries every trick on the book and in the end she eats them all and Bear is left with no more chocolates to bring to his romantic interest.
Long story short: what my nephew got is that you don't ever eat all the chocolates, because before eating the last one you should ask if someone else wants it, because it's good manners.
She did not understand that it's a metaphor of the difficulty of having a romantic life for parents with kids, especially single parents.
That's something we get, because we are adult and have already gone through it or witnessed it in other's people lives.
Why do you say the target audience were parents? Everyone I hear talking about the show were kids when it aired. At the time animation was always for kids. Before the Simpsons there was no adult animation and even when that came out it was actually even a bit confusing for some. I think it’s just that Link’s behaviour in the show was socially acceptable at the time, but it isn’t anymore.
> Before the Simpsons there was no adult animation
There was adult animation from well known authors way before the Simpsons[1], even if you just consider the USA[2].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Thousand_and_One_Nights_(196...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_the_Cat_(film)
I don't have a stake here, but one should definitely differentiate between a full featured adult animation which ran in the cinemas and sometimes on TV, just like a regular films (and in 03:00 AM block), and a syndicated, every week, for years, animation running when the kids are already in the bed but you still sit on couch with a half killed six-pack.
The Flintstones were on television, in a prime-time slot, three decades before the Simpsons. Wikipedia lists more North American adult TV shows from before 1990.[1]
The Simpsons are important in the history of animation, but however you look at it they were definitely not the first to explore animation for adults. They weren’t the first in their own country, nor were they first on a regular non-kids schedule on TV, nor were they the first successful case.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_adult_animated_televis...
The first one is actually Japanese and the second is an independent production. Sure, it was not unheard of. But I think the Simpsons is what made it mainstream. My point was that adults were not sitting down in front of the TV to watch cartoons (and specially not ones based off of a video game). That was associated with kids.
> The first one is actually Japanese
Yes, I know. I don’t think that’s relevant but it’s because I thought you might nitpick that I added a USA example.
> and the second is an independent production.
Why does that matter? It was a worldwide hit and is an important piece of movie history, it’s not an obscure college movie.
> Sure, it was not unheard of.
It’s considerably more than “not unheard of”, I specifically chose well-known authors with well-known works. Ralph Bakshi alone directed eight adult-oriented feature film animations before the Simpsons was a thing. Those are far from the only examples.
Oh wow, I completely forget about Fritz the Cat. I read those comics as a kid/teen (presumably the German version) :D
Disney's Sleeping Beauty (1959) was not for kids.
Sleeping Beauty is a cartoon adaptation of an opera. Its extremely boring for kids to watch, but its pretty great for adults. Arguably its "kid friendly", but only in the same way that the Nutcracker is kid-friendly. Its not really the kind of entertainment aimed at children though (like say, Peter Pan was).
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Fantasia is also for adults IMO, though kid-friendly (no excessive violence/gore/sex... but a relatively dry musical performance though highly imaginative)
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And Looney Tunes is also filled to the brim with opera / stage references that no child could possibly understand. It was clearly aimed at adults. It does leverage lowbrow humor just in case the audience doesn't "get" the musical / stage references... so I guess its more kid friendly than these other examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_Opera,_Doc%3F
My parents took me to see those. They had no interest in seeing otherwise. I'm sure most adults consider them to be children's stories.
I liked Beauty and the Beast. I was not bored. Even watched on VHS multiple times.
> Why do you say the target audience were parents?
because they are the ones vetting what you could or could not watch.
> At the time animation was always for kids
I am not saying that they were made for the parents to watch them, but for the parents to accept them.
I bet American kids never watched shows that slightly hinted at communism or socialism in the 80s.
> I think it’s just that Link’s behaviour in the show was socially acceptable at the time, but it isn’t anymore.
I wouldn't bet on that.
This is the one of the most popular anime in USA right now
https://i.redd.it/u3i0ue892i251.jpg
I mean, only the slang has changed, not the actual content.
I also believe those characterization were imitating this kind of comedic effect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ1UdYOrR3E
They made people smile because they were exaggerated, not because they were polite.
I'm quite convinced that people understood that Link was being a moron and was not a role model, he had to learn how to behave.
having said that, socially acceptable does not necessarily means better.
also having cartoons specifically made for kids, especially very small children, made things worse, not better.
I disagree, this show aired on a block of Nintendo-related content. I would have been 4-7 when it was airing. My parents never watched it.
FWIW I remember disliking the Zelda series at the time, went back and watched it when I was in my early 20s and remember liking it ironically (so-bad-it's-good), and watching scenes from it again now, I think maybe I was too generous in my 20s
> FWIW I remember disliking the Zelda series at the time, went back and watched it when I was in my early 20s and remember liking it ironically (so-bad-it's-good), and watching scenes from it again now, I think maybe I was too generous in my 20s
Yeah, that's what growing up is usually like, there are a lot of products that I've re-watched over the years and completely changed my mind on them.
Take as one example "The Wizard" or "Thrashin'" were the good guy was a young Josh Brolin (LOL)
https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/preview-440/5871775c/6e...
but the real skater heroes (Caballero, Tony Hawk, Hosoi) were depicted as the bad guys
It is unconceivable today because that idea of the white blonde guy from a good family that gets all the girls is a Republican parents of Reagan era's dream and luckily died with him, people who actually loved skate culture and made it popular hated that life style.
Skateboarding is now pretty normal, my t-shirt from the early 90s "skateboarding is not a crime" would make people laugh today.
that's why I believe we should not judge the things of the past with today's standards, because we are totally different people and live in a totally different society.
We know what was back then, but we couldn't possibly imagine what would be like in the future.
And there are also many things kids of today don't even consider because they are not pop, they are not fresh, they don't talk about them at school.
I've watched a lot of stuff only because it was what other kids constantly talked about, but did not really like them, but didn't say.
In 20 years times most of what kids look at today will be considered "trash that did not age very well".
So, to conclude, thanks god many things from the 80s did not live up to their past fortunes, because they were really bad and reflected an US-centric culture that wasn't so not-to-be-missed after all.
Every kids show are made so parents would let them watch. One could argue that a show without sexual innuendo would score better. So, I’m not sure if the decision to include that was really to get parents onboard.
I was suggesting Link’s behaviour is no longer socially acceptable. Not sure if that anime has a character similar to Link. Does it? If it does and it’s very popular I’d be amazed it’s not being called off more often.
That howling wolf cartoon is also a bit dated. It objectifies women. Regarding Link’s behaviour, I’m not sure people really thought he was a moron at the time. Maybe a bit of a loser at times, but his behaviour was not really frowned upon at the time. Growing up I’ve met plenty of men that would make the same kind of jokes and behave in very similar fashion and everyone thought it was funny.
> Before the Simpsons there was no adult animation
R Rated 1981 Heavy Metal says hello.
Also Fritz the Cat.
Diarrhea of the brain, pumped straight from the head through the keyboard.
Having lived through the 80's, and being the target audience for this Mario/Zeldo show, I reject most of your comments.
Yuppies, or Boomers in their prime as working office class people, have nothing to do with this. Perhaps, other than being parents.
This show was shown during the cartoon time during each day, usually either being 6-8:30a, or 2:30p-5p. This when Mario played. On Fridays it was Zelda. That's when this abomination played (Mario was also pretty terrible in its own right). And note, unless one of your parents were stay-at-home (usually the woman in those days), your parents weren't watching it. You, the kid, was. And likely unsupervised. After all, it's a kids show during the cartoon block. "How bad could it be?"
And with the "kids not getting the references", you do not teach boys that cat-calling is good. Nor do you teach that demanding "affection" from women is good. You know you have problems when the Beavis and Butthead version is more accurate and true to what's really being said. We all know B&B is wrong, and it's funny because of that. When we're comparing official "Looking good princess, 'specially from this angle", versus Beavis' "Nice tits" , they're functionally the same thing. And it wasn't an innunendo in either case.
https://www.denofgeek.com/games/the-legend-of-zelda-animated... Puts it better than what I've said...
> Then, of course, there is the characterization of Link, which is a rather mixed bag. To their credit, the writers were successful in imbuing Link with a distinct, memorable character. Unfortunately, that character was appalling. I’m sure the writers were going for some kind of “lovable scamp” vibe with him, but he really just came off as a whiny, obnoxious, barely competent creep with a catchphrase I can only imagine was written into his character bio in the series bible, because it is used at least once per episode. At least. However, despite the fact that this irritating catchphrase that no one ever thought was charming or funny has become an indelible part of this franchise, it is not the worst thing about the cartoon’s Link. I, for one, am far more bothered by all the sexual harassment.
> And there is a lot of it. A LOT. Link is a straight up sexist creeper. He makes lewd comments at Zelda about her cleavage, harasses her for a kiss, treating her affection like some kind of commodity that he’s owed for his service (to be fair, she’s equally horrible by referring to it as a reward at the end of one episode), asks her to kiss him twice after she initially refuses, and even goes so far as to coerce her by physically preventing her from getting away from him until she gives him what he wants. And that’s just in the first episode.
Is this show a parody?
No, Link was just designed to be off-putting and gross with women so Zelda hates him and slaps him for it all the time. I think that style was fairly common at the time.
Even during its time I remember finding the show unwatchable garbage. To me it was Zelda in name only.
And some shows, like MASH, date extraordinarily well.
This show went from 'peeping Tom' to 'someone who would likely commit a sex crime against you'.
It's worth noting that this is a product of a time when everyone was competing to be the most "extreme". Sonic and Mario were both being rebranded to resonate with 90s audiences, so it's not surprising to see that come through here too.
It's just fascinating that Link behaves like Johnny Knoxville rather than... well, any chivalry role-model.
The first Sonic game came out in 1991. The Zelda cartoon was first shown in 1989.
Interesting point!
Mentally I'm sorta conflating the late-80s and early-90s video game commercials, but there was definitely a period where Nintendo was attempting some rebranding a-la the Mario Brothers Super Show and the Zelda cartoon.
Most of the time I just lurk without commenting, but since you were so alarmed. I wasted time looking at the bit you were referring to. You are exaggerating quite a bit.
You are free to make your own judgements, but if this is what you consider appalling, then bar is pretty low.
"Boys will be boys"
If it was 2022, Link is cancelled on Twitter after 2 weeks haha
My only memory of watching this show on TV as a child is of how utterly unheroic Link was, and that bothered me as someone who played the games. I have no nostalgia for this show, and I’m glad it didn’t do better. If it did and this became Link’s main characterization I don’t think I would’ve touched another Zelda game.
I loathed this show as a kid. Link was such an arrogant ass. The complete opposite I imaged Link would be after playing Zelda 1 and 2.
I was a Sega kid so I didn’t have any notions of how Link should be. I just thought it was funny that he was such a dick.
John Grusd (Director, The Legend of Zelda):
> Nintendo wanted us to base the show on the new game [Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link], because, you know, it’s great marketing. What they did was give me the Japanese version of the game, because it wasn’t out here yet. I didn’t know anything about the game when I started. I’d never played them. I wasn’t a gamer or anything. That’s how I learned how the characters move, the sound effects, the music. I got to be able to do the games all the way through pretty quickly, as a matter of fact, because I knew all the shortcuts. I could get through both of them in less than two minutes, probably. It’s pretty fast.
This should probably be two hours? Which is still pretty impressive. Speed running records for the two combined would be just over 1h.
That catchphrase has been stuck in my head for 35 years
For me, it was:
- Hotel Mario "No" Sound (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwz7YN1AQmQ)
Honorable mentions include
- Sleepy Mega Man Dub (https://youtu.be/pmMispgpUs0)
- Me? Gongaga (https://youtu.be/kKnkhAQxLKI)
- Hotel Mario "All Toasters Toast Toast" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv7jvyslRek)
All combined, this is less than 60s of total content. What was the overarching takeaway for you?
I think they were just mentioning some catchphrases that got stuck in their head at the time, not presenting a grand theory of everything based on cartoons.
The unified frame theory
I pity da fool. I am the victim of similar phenomena from other 90's games like The Legend of Kyrandia, Indiana Jones and Thw Temple of Doom, Myst, Power Pete, MathBlaster, ShufflePuck Cafe, and Sim City v1.0, Marathon, and movies like Dumb and Dumber, Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, and CKY2K.
I enjoyed it at the time but given the current political climate cannot recommend to others. I continue to hesitantly and remorsefully enjoy, an indemnible stain on my soul.
Not sure what political climate has to do with anything here?
Some of the jokes and themes therein are now widely considered racist, forbidden, or otherwise *-ist, and were founded on now banned or socially unacceptable concepts, assumptions, or thoughts.
Obvious cases are the transphobia portrayed at the end of Ace Venture: Pet Detective when Jim Carey's character reacted to the Chief of Poice having taken measures to conceal her physical gender identity, or the manipulating a blind child into buying a dead bird with it's head duct taped to the neck in Dumb and Dumber.
It comes down to respecting others and I get that. I consider myself a supporter of all well-intentioned human beings and intelligent species and entities at large, yet I still can't stop laughing about all kinds of immature stuff, including when myself or my spouse step in dog crap.
I'm sensitive but generally have tended towards trying to focus on self-acceptance and surrounding myself with people who are understanding but also won't put up with too much.
What should I do? Suggestions welcome.
You're doing the right thing. Some of the humor you enjoyed is dated, based on outdated ideas and stereotypes that perpetuate marginalization, othering, and dehumanization of certain groups and we should limit young people's exposure to that kind of material and, at a minimum, contextualize it for adults. And hey, maybe Ace Ventura needs to permanently go into the Warner Bros. Water Tower like Song of the South went permanently into the Disney Vault.
One of my favorite cartoon shows (and the source of the technical term "yak shaving"), The Ren and Stimpy Show, was created by an emotional abuser who eventually became a rapist of underage girls. I cannot really enjoy the show the same way anymore, in light of this knowledge. It's not "cancel culture", it's a natural reaction to material that, in retrospect, is disrespectful or was created by horrid people.
No he isnt. Keeping quiet when you think the pushed narrative is wrong is not the right thing. There is not a thing wrong with Ace Venture and if you think that’s “violent” then you are the problem not Ace Ventura. What the OP should do is push back against comments like yours who equate jokes we all laughed at with dehumanization.
They were jokes that informed our humanity.
Meh…I have Ace Ventura on my Plex and plan to show it to my 10 year old in a year or so. People can still enjoy things that weirdos on the internet consider “outdated”.
That authoritarians on the internet push as outdated or dehumanizing I think you mean. They aren’t outdated the authoritarians have just been winning.
"Authoritarianism is when you make the personal choice not to watch Ace Ventura again."
What's controversial about Sim City?
They all have lines that we're repeated quite a bit on the playground, but would be considered offensive by today's standards.
For me it's gotta be all the ridiculously over the top VAs in the CD-I Zelda games.
"I can't wait to bomb some dodongos!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRDO3l1Eiuk
see also: an empirical analysis of how many "u"s the Internet thinks are in "excuuuuuse me, princess", by Ryan North (of Dinosaur Comics and other fine literature)
https://qwantz.livejournal.com/112122.html
Interesting to know it was based partially on Zelda II. Maybe that's where the constant sexual harassment came from: at the conclusion of Zelda II Link and Zelda are seen to embrace (behind a nearly closed curtain).
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What about Twilight Princess on GameCube?
What are you talking about specifically? BOTW is the next game I played after the N64 games and it tonally it felt like OOT2 to me
What do you mean by "weeb" culture?
sexualization of cartoon characters, lolis, and “kawaii”. There’s also animal ears and tails that are “sexy” in weeb culture.
I know you weren't the one who made the claim, but if this is what the commenter meant by weeb culture, I'm not sure how it has anything to do with, for example, Twilight Princess.
I haven’t played TP, though I’d like to. Also I love Zelda and I don’t think the IP is “ruined” like the OP said.
BoTW has some anime influences with a feminine but gender neutral Link, animal sexualization, and a few lolis. That being said, BoTW might be my favorite game of all time.
Not only that, Twilight Princess matches GP's preferred tone much more than Ocarina.
I don't remember anything like that in Breath of the Wild.
There’s a couple loli in BoTW.
The worst one is Purah who is supposedly 1,000 years old but in a child’s body. She wears a mini skirt and thigh high stockings
There’s Mipha as well and then lady Riju.
I personally don’t care because i really enjoyed BoTW. Some people do though.
I don't really see what you're saying re: Purah, but I'll take your word for it. Mipha and Riju are both adults, though, aren't they?
If it's just about their designs, Riju has the same basic design that Gerudo have had since Ocarina of Time, and as for Mipha, I'll just link to Princess Ruto's concept art:
https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Princess_Ruto
No i was wrong, Mipha isn’t the loli, it’s Finley. Wrong Zora
Finley: https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Finley
For Riju: https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Riju
She might have the same basic design as an adult Gerudo, but she’s still a kid.
For Purah, it’s obvious. Pure loli with a silly huge bobble head.
Gerudo Link?
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Wait, your comment was something about linking (no pun intended) the Zelda franchise and pedophilia? Are you happy in your life?