Is it sideloading ("installing" whatever you want) or is it alternative stores? The title says sideloading but the article says alternative stores. Even in the EU, they still require notarization on all apps, so in effect everything still has to go through their approval. Sideloading would include apps that Apple would never allow like apps that violate ToS of other services (youtube vanced, grayjay, stuff of that nature).
Apple despises user freedom. Their whole thing is "use what we gave you and be happy for it". They would never tolerate letting users do something like run any app of their own choosing.
Sorry, I should've clarified that I was asking about whether you had a source for the claim that this legislation will not allow sideloading. I agree regarding the definition!
I just read the article, which like OP says, talks about third-party app stores and not sideloading. If it's anything like EU regulation, then that'll be that.
It uses the word "sideloading" and doesn't appear to have carveouts allowing Apple to block apps for "security" like the EU legislation does. But at the end of the day it really just depends on what their legislators are going to allow Apple to get away with, and Apple will probably attempt bare-minimum compliance at least initially, like they did in the EU.
Side loading already exists. You can do it yourself in any country right now, it’s just restricted to packages you signed yourself, and they have to be resigned every few days.
Implementing this should just be turning off those two restrictions.
So I can build, sign, and install an app on iOS without paying Apple $100 every year for the privilege of running my own code? Can I install my own app from a country that's under sanctions, and will not allow VISA payments to be made to Apple? Because that's the requirement here. I'm not after "Here's the paid workaround", I'm asking about building and running my own software, without a fee, like one can do on Android, Linux (or Linux Mobile), MacOS, Windows, or (IIRC), Windows fucking Mobile.
You can't say "Sideloading is available (for a small ongoing fee)", because that's not what anyone asking about sideloading is talking about
That feels to me like Spotify saying you don't own the music, you paid for a license to listen to the music; to verify the license is still valid, you must connect to the internet periodically.
In this case, you do not own, or even control, the software you wrote or the device it's running on, and you must re-install it weekly. In my opinion, sideloading should completely bypass thr manufacturer. I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
To call Apple's allowances sideloading feels disingenuous to me, because of how many asterisks there are attached to it. And I'm not even touching on the requirement that one support Apple's hardware business, either by directly buying from Apple, or keeping second-hand devices valuable and in-demand due to the development environment running exclusively on MacOS.
> I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
iOS follows the game console model (even though the iPhone is a "smartphone" with additional non-game features). Games are responsible for something like 70% of iOS app store revenue, which Apple taxes via its platform fees, which are comparable to game console platform fees.
Unlicensed games are, of course, the killer app for sideloading on game consoles. IIRC free developer provisioning used to last up to a year or so (?), but Apple reduced it to a week after someone created a competing app store or web site that distributed unlicensed commercial games (as well as other software) by leveraging developer provisioning. (IIRC Sony analogously killed off Linux for PS3 once someone figured out how to leverage it to run unlicensed commercial games.)
If you pay $100/year for an official Apple Dev account I think you can still get one year provisioning. This probably won't make you or anyone on HN happy, but it does exist.
It's certainly a shame that piracy is a real factor here :(
It should probably be noted, however, that from what I understand, technically speaking, the only reason that piracy is possible in the first place is due to Apple's failures to prevent jailbreaking? iOS apps are encrypted and you need a jailbreak to decrypt them and redistribute them on shady websites. If Apple finally stomps jailbreaking out for good one day (which they are trying to do), then piracy should become impossible even if sideloading becomes an option.
See also: Xbox One has a developer mode that allows unsigned code execution, but that still doesn't allow for piracy because nobody's hacked the console, so nobody can obtain the game binaries to pirate.
I like piracy as a means to punish these user-hostile practices like vendor-lockin and bait & switch.
That's why I started downloading netflix shows again after they doubled the price (I used to be on the 720p plan and now I'd have to pay more than twice to get ad-free netflix). These companies only care about their bottom line and this is where you can hurt them back the most.
> In this case, you do not own, or even control, the software you wrote or the device it's running on, and you must re-install it weekly. In my opinion, sideloading should completely bypass thr manufacturer. I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
The problem is, even the real sideloading as offered in Europe is still dependent on Apple's approval in every individual case through their "notarisation". This already existed by the way, even on Mac, but it was not mandatory on Mac where sideloading is normal. It's ridiculous, definitely malicious compliance IMO.
Those restrictions are pretty horrible though. Especially the every few days thing. They're not useful for practical use. I used to have iOS and I was even a developer but I left when jailbreaking became more and more difficult.
But with the EU thing apple also introduced a tax on app publishers, even FOSS ones. I imagine they'll want to do the same in Brazil.
What I’m saying is that this isn’t some huge engineering effort required in 90 days, the core functionality already exists but with artificial limitations. Complying with the law would just be removing the limits rather than having to build something.
Ah but that was my original point as well. Though the developer functionality is not something really similar to what they need to offer here. It's more similar to what they do in the EU.
You can't expect every user to mess around with xcode to sign their sideloaded apps. Many won't even have a mac.
This goes back to a complaint in 2022 and as mentioned in the very first sentence of the article similar rulings have already taken effect in several countries. Not everything is about Trump.
Some ruling can be blocked for years in “legal proceeding” for example Uber with plenty evidence was ignored while in the same time European Glove was fighting crinal prosecution.
I'm not taking a position on whether or not this is about Trump, but three years ago is recent enough to argue that we were already in the process of losing our dominant position.
There is an incredible amount of soft power applied in global politics and business. This why for example Google CEO have face to face meeting with prime ministers and this reported in news.
Is it sideloading ("installing" whatever you want) or is it alternative stores? The title says sideloading but the article says alternative stores. Even in the EU, they still require notarization on all apps, so in effect everything still has to go through their approval. Sideloading would include apps that Apple would never allow like apps that violate ToS of other services (youtube vanced, grayjay, stuff of that nature).
Yup, it's not sideloading. Actual sideloading would be too much freedom for an iphone ecosystem.
Why? I say this like thousand times but you don't have to sideload anything. It's optional and it always will be.
To much freedom for Apple to stomach.
Apple despises user freedom. Their whole thing is "use what we gave you and be happy for it". They would never tolerate letting users do something like run any app of their own choosing.
Do you have a source for that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideloading
Sorry, I should've clarified that I was asking about whether you had a source for the claim that this legislation will not allow sideloading. I agree regarding the definition!
I just read the article, which like OP says, talks about third-party app stores and not sideloading. If it's anything like EU regulation, then that'll be that.
I believe this is the full text of the decision: https://sei.cade.gov.br/sei/modulos/pesquisa/md_pesq_documen...
It uses the word "sideloading" and doesn't appear to have carveouts allowing Apple to block apps for "security" like the EU legislation does. But at the end of the day it really just depends on what their legislators are going to allow Apple to get away with, and Apple will probably attempt bare-minimum compliance at least initially, like they did in the EU.
I added it to the tracker:
https://doesioshavesideloadingyet.com/#which-countries-are-l...
Fingers crossed this enables true sideloading and not just third party app stores!
Cool, they already have the infra built for the EU so it's just a matter of switching it on. 90 days is reasonable IMO.
That's an alternative market, not sideloading.
Side loading already exists. You can do it yourself in any country right now, it’s just restricted to packages you signed yourself, and they have to be resigned every few days.
Implementing this should just be turning off those two restrictions.
So I can build, sign, and install an app on iOS without paying Apple $100 every year for the privilege of running my own code? Can I install my own app from a country that's under sanctions, and will not allow VISA payments to be made to Apple? Because that's the requirement here. I'm not after "Here's the paid workaround", I'm asking about building and running my own software, without a fee, like one can do on Android, Linux (or Linux Mobile), MacOS, Windows, or (IIRC), Windows fucking Mobile.
You can't say "Sideloading is available (for a small ongoing fee)", because that's not what anyone asking about sideloading is talking about
You don't have to pay to run your own apps on your own devices, as long as you're OK with re-installing them weekly
For free accounts, there’s a 5 app id limit, and several entitlements aren’t available. It’s far from being true sideloading.
That feels to me like Spotify saying you don't own the music, you paid for a license to listen to the music; to verify the license is still valid, you must connect to the internet periodically.
In this case, you do not own, or even control, the software you wrote or the device it's running on, and you must re-install it weekly. In my opinion, sideloading should completely bypass thr manufacturer. I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
To call Apple's allowances sideloading feels disingenuous to me, because of how many asterisks there are attached to it. And I'm not even touching on the requirement that one support Apple's hardware business, either by directly buying from Apple, or keeping second-hand devices valuable and in-demand due to the development environment running exclusively on MacOS.
> I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
iOS follows the game console model (even though the iPhone is a "smartphone" with additional non-game features). Games are responsible for something like 70% of iOS app store revenue, which Apple taxes via its platform fees, which are comparable to game console platform fees.
Unlicensed games are, of course, the killer app for sideloading on game consoles. IIRC free developer provisioning used to last up to a year or so (?), but Apple reduced it to a week after someone created a competing app store or web site that distributed unlicensed commercial games (as well as other software) by leveraging developer provisioning. (IIRC Sony analogously killed off Linux for PS3 once someone figured out how to leverage it to run unlicensed commercial games.)
If you pay $100/year for an official Apple Dev account I think you can still get one year provisioning. This probably won't make you or anyone on HN happy, but it does exist.
It's certainly a shame that piracy is a real factor here :(
It should probably be noted, however, that from what I understand, technically speaking, the only reason that piracy is possible in the first place is due to Apple's failures to prevent jailbreaking? iOS apps are encrypted and you need a jailbreak to decrypt them and redistribute them on shady websites. If Apple finally stomps jailbreaking out for good one day (which they are trying to do), then piracy should become impossible even if sideloading becomes an option.
See also: Xbox One has a developer mode that allows unsigned code execution, but that still doesn't allow for piracy because nobody's hacked the console, so nobody can obtain the game binaries to pirate.
I like piracy as a means to punish these user-hostile practices like vendor-lockin and bait & switch.
That's why I started downloading netflix shows again after they doubled the price (I used to be on the 720p plan and now I'd have to pay more than twice to get ad-free netflix). These companies only care about their bottom line and this is where you can hurt them back the most.
> nobody's hacked the [Xbox One] console
It looks like that may have changed last year.
Not entirely surprising since there have been jailbreaks for most game consoles, including PS4/5 and Switch.
> In this case, you do not own, or even control, the software you wrote or the device it's running on, and you must re-install it weekly. In my opinion, sideloading should completely bypass thr manufacturer. I do not need to email Linus to ask if I may run software on my Linux Mobile device, or Cook to run software on a Mac.
The problem is, even the real sideloading as offered in Europe is still dependent on Apple's approval in every individual case through their "notarisation". This already existed by the way, even on Mac, but it was not mandatory on Mac where sideloading is normal. It's ridiculous, definitely malicious compliance IMO.
Those restrictions are pretty horrible though. Especially the every few days thing. They're not useful for practical use. I used to have iOS and I was even a developer but I left when jailbreaking became more and more difficult.
But with the EU thing apple also introduced a tax on app publishers, even FOSS ones. I imagine they'll want to do the same in Brazil.
What I’m saying is that this isn’t some huge engineering effort required in 90 days, the core functionality already exists but with artificial limitations. Complying with the law would just be removing the limits rather than having to build something.
Ah but that was my original point as well. Though the developer functionality is not something really similar to what they need to offer here. It's more similar to what they do in the EU.
You can't expect every user to mess around with xcode to sign their sideloaded apps. Many won't even have a mac.
You need to pay for a developer license, and you can have at most 3 temporary apps at a time. That's not sideloading.
What is the status of EU sideloading btw?
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As US continues to give up its dominant position, we will more countries playing hard ball with US corporations.
As they indeed should, and should've been doing for decades now.
This goes back to a complaint in 2022 and as mentioned in the very first sentence of the article similar rulings have already taken effect in several countries. Not everything is about Trump.
Some ruling can be blocked for years in “legal proceeding” for example Uber with plenty evidence was ignored while in the same time European Glove was fighting crinal prosecution.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-files-leak...
https://braveneweurope.com/spain-pioneering-criminal-complai...
I'm not taking a position on whether or not this is about Trump, but three years ago is recent enough to argue that we were already in the process of losing our dominant position.
There is an incredible amount of soft power applied in global politics and business. This why for example Google CEO have face to face meeting with prime ministers and this reported in news.
Occum's razor...
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Why is the title worded like some sort of ultimatum? It’s Brazil, how many of their smartphone users even use iPhone, 20%?
Around 10% within around 150 million smartphones, 15 million iPhones gone unsold is not insignificant. That's some US$ 15-20 billion.
Because that's what court orders are?