> Helium is based on Chromium
> Best privacy by default
Sorry, pass...
Even with un-googled Chromium I do not think these statements are self-consistent. We need browsers that do not allow Google to control the ecosystem. We need legitimate competition. So what, our choices are Firefox (Gecko), Safari (WebKit), and Ladybird?
Personally I go with Firefox on most devices and Orion (WebKit) on my iPhone and iPad.
> Helium anonymizes all internal requests to the Chrome Web Store via Helium services.
This seems like something pretty easy to mess up. Maybe it is good now, but it sure is going to be a cat and mouse game.
I really would be curious to have some breakdown comparison with something like the Mullvad browser (Gecko). I have a lot of trust for both the Mullvad and Tor teams. They have a much longer history working with this kind of stuff and have been consistently updating it since release. Launched in early 2023[0] and last update was last week[1].
Because at the time IE6 was a terrible browser with poor standards support, while Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support. It is a gilded cage.
> Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support.
Google learned it can be "standards compliant" if it submits a draft spec to WHATWG/W3C, and while the comment and revision process is still ongoing, roll out those features in Chrome and start using them in YouTube, Gmail, Google docs, and AMP. Now Firefox and Safari are forced to implement those draft specs as well or users will leave in droves because Google websites are broken. Soon enough, Google's draft spec is standardized with minimal revisions because it's already out there in the wild.
The debate, revision, and multistakeholder aspects of the standards process have been effectively bypassed, a la IE6 and ActiveX, but Chrome can claim to be on the cutting edge of standards compliance. This is a case of Goodharts's law.
I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.
Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.
- Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome.
Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API
push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.
Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.
WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.
To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago.
And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM).
Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac.
So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.
If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.
That is revisionism, IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition, like Chrome is today, and Microsoft withdraw most of the development resources from the team.
WPF XAML was originally designed by ex IE team members, and they were the same that a few years later proposed XAML Grid concept as CSS Grid initial design.
Many JavaScript devs have to thank their abuse of JavaScript in the browser to XMLHttpRequest introduced by IE.
> IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition
Yeah, people forget that IE was a great browser. It was easily the most performant, I think driven by the Outlook web (I believe the first web app to make use of XMLHttpRequest) team demanding IE team make it so. The issue, like you said, is they won and then stopped updating.
> Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.
Default helped, but IE was the far superior browser for a long time. People chose to use it.
I was also a FF user and it came out a few years later than IE6. When FF came out IE6 was still the superior browser, though it was eventually overtaken by both FF and Chrome.
It was sad to me watching that battle unfold. Maybe i was ignorant (and maybe i still am), but I learned most of what i know about web dev on Netscape sitting in a mac lab at university viewing source code. I HATED when IE started to takeover and eventually won that first battle. I miss Netscape :-(
Revisionism? I was around then and I implemented plenty of sites in IE. It always had bugs that other browsers did not (and there were more than two engines back then). Maddening lack of support of features that other browsers had implemented, often requiring crazy workarounds. Transparent PNGs didn't even work! Not to mention all the proprietary crap like ActiveX.
"Leading" being the operative word. Ship a new feature, submit it as a standard and encourage its adoption so things only work on chrome and further increase market share when people find other browsers "broken".
MS did exactly the same shit with IE - the only really difference was that the standards body (w3c) was independent, so they couldn't self declare it as a standard. Now the "standards" body (whatwg) is mostly google...
CSS Canvas Drawings
CSS filter() function
Video Tracks
Audio Tracks
FIDO U2F API
SPDY protocol
JPEG XL image format
HTTP Live Streaming
HEIF/HEIC image format
SVG fonts
CSS hanging-punctuation
And broken support for:
CSS font-smooth
CSS Initial Letter
Speech Recognition API
CSS -webkit-user-drag property
CSS3 Multiple column layout
CSS text-indent
Synchronous Clipboard API
HEVC/H.265 video format
TLS 1.1
text-decoration styling
CSS display: contents
CSS Container Style Queries
CSS clip-path property for HTML
CSS Counter Styles
Ruby annotation
WAI-ARIA Accessibility features
Media Fragments
autocomplete attribute: on & off values
DOMMatrix
SVG effects for HTML
X-Frame-Options HTTP header
DNSSEC and DANE
WebXR Device API
DeviceOrientation & DeviceMotion events
Permissions Policy
asm.js
Network Information API
theme-color Meta Tag
Document Policy
Your copy&paste does not support your argument. Just looking at the top items on your list, it's basically a bunch of Safari-only features which no other browser vendor ships:
- CSS Canvas Drawings is not a web standard. It's a WebKit-specific feature, only Safari implements it. Chromium removed it in order to replace it with an actual web standard (CSS Painting API).
- Likewise, the CSS filter() function is Safari-only.
- U2F API has been deprecated for years, was replaced by WebAuthn, and only Safari still implements it.
- Same with SPDY, which was replaced by an actual web standard (HTTP2). Only Safari still ships it, but has marked it deprecated.
- SVG Fonts were removed from the SVG spec.
- HLS, JPEG-XL, HEIF/HEIC are essentially Safari-only as well.
CSS hanging-punctuation and audio/video tracks are new features that haven't been widely implemented yet.
The last thing Google would want is the web to turn into a Chrome platform. Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win. This is exactly why they open-sourced most of Chrome and almost fully finance Chrome's biggest competitor.
>Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win.
I feel like there's a missing step in the argument here. Yes Google's revenue comes from the web, yes Chromium being open source and paying for search deals are a hedge against anti trust, but why does it follow that they wouldn't want to dominate the browser space? They do, and it seems to be working quite well for them. But it feels more like a minimum effort hedge against antitrust then a demonstration of a healthy ecosystem.
Also, every time Chromium comes up you have people pointing to it like it's a counterpoint to their browser dominance. It's open source, so what's the issue? But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers. So it is controlled by Google after all.
>But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers.
I understand that "just fork it" has been the canonical response to disagreements over direction of open source software. Sometimes that's the right call, the world is better for having a forked Syncthing, forked Nextcloud, and so on.
But I think there are cases, such as Chromium where the "just fork it" response is unrealistic about the burden of maintaining a codebase or the ongoing relationship to new updates, or not having capacity to solve new problems or comply with new standards in Google-independent ways. Part of the problem of Chromium is that it's normalized a velocity of development and of codebase size in exactly the way you would if you were going for embrace-extend-extinguish.
And the foundational point is still true, Google controls commits to Chromium, so the core project itself is not ever going to be an organic manifestion of community desires for an egalitarian internet. It's going to be whatever helps consolidate Google's monopoly.
You're not wrong, but there are organizations which could hard-fork Chromium, it just happens to be more productive to collaborate as long as Google remains a good steward.
The only reason Safari has any market share is because it's the default on every iPhone.
4/5 top browsers by market share are there because they are preinstalled on millions of devices and none of them are terrible enough for an average person to look for an alternative.
Exactly right and I wish more people understood this as the key dynamic driving change in browser adoption. Just for one more example, what little toehold Edge and Bing have right now are from muscling those in front of people as defaults.
Which I think is important as it relates to Mozilla. Because a lot of the arguments back and forth about Mozilla assume that change in browser adoption was about what features they did or didn't add. But I think that completely ignores powerful actors leveraging monopoly positions to drive users to their browsers, which is more important by several orders or magnitude. Any explanation of that history which leaves that part out is revisionist history in my opinion.
I disagree wholeheartedly, the current state of browser market share has nothing to do with how good any of the browsers are, it's just monopolistic behavior. Device manufacturers should force you to pick one during setup, which is absolutely a reasonable policy decision away.
In fact, as of this year, Apple devices in the EU already have to ask you which browser you want to use during the setup process, while Android devices don't have to ask you which browser you want to use, but do have to ask you which search engine you want to use. It is a bit inconsistent and arbitrary, but it's a step in the right direction.
What do you mean? It is on many Androids and every Chromebook.
I just checked some website stats I have access to and ~78.6% of iOS users use Safari. On Android on the other hand, ~76% of them use Chrome, ~8.1% uses the Samsung Browser, and there's a marginal amount of people using other manufacturer-provided browsers like Huawei Browser and MIUI (Xiaomi's default). Of course I don't know the exact manufacturer of Android phones to be able to tell what percentage of say Samsung devices switched to Chrome, but I'd say the pattern's still pretty clear.
The only people likely to switch browsers are desktop users, but they total to <20% of the traffic. Funnily enough Chrome isn't even the top browser overall, it's Safari, but that tells you more about my clientele (richer than average for my target market).
An alternative explanation is they fund Mozilla to avoid a monopoly breakup. The evidence? The fact that everyone currently knows exactly how much Google pays Mozilla because of the recent attempt to do a monopoly breakup.
the (very challenging) "trick" is to use Libre hardware/software, like Pinephone and LineageOS, but that's not realistic for the vast majority of people :(
It's not just anyone, it's the folks at Igalia. I think people disregard Servo since it's no longer under Mozilla but Igalia aren't just random contributors picking up the slack, they're browser experts that also work on Chromium.
Personally, I disregard Servo because I've been hearing about it for 10 years. I'll start paying attention again when they remove the "don't log into your bank with Servo" warning.
Maybe it's just me, but from time to time I try latest Servo build and it never survives more than few minutes of usage before crashing. Last time I did it was 3 days ago, I opened a website and it crashed with "RefCell already borrowed" in what seems to be a logger module. This always strikes me as weird because one of the selling points for Rust is memory and thread safety (quote from the website: "eliminate many classes of bugs at compile-time").
Yes it's safe but undesirable, like Java's NullPointerException.
A more interesting question is why it was not possible to use compile time borrow checking in this particular case. It shows how valuable the borrow checker is when you can use it.
I don't use an ad blocker, I just don't look at the ads. Cookie alerts are a pain though. For privacy I just run in Incognito mode in Chrome or private mode in Safari.
I'm tired of people who are doing such great work being labeled politically over things like pronoun preferences and somehow this is supposed to make us wish for the projects failure OR the founder's expulsion from his own project.
(oh dear I forgot to imagine the project lead could also be female - damn you English language!)
I am deeply ashamed to know that the Ladybird browser was being coded by indentured children somewhere far away. Your thoughtful and considerate "Strawman Argument" has fully enlightened me.
Look, you could have said "I don't know what you mean. Explain it to me." And I would have tried and we would have had a civilised discussion why we think what we think.
But you, by resorting to sarcasm, inappropriate quotational use of a term, and distorting my sentences, demonstrate that you understood what I said and what I meant. This, in turn, tells me you think it is okay to deny people liberty, equality and justice, as long as the product is swell. In fact, I think you think that's OK even if there is no product.
I could argue some more, but this is the internet. So I leave it be and remind myself of the well-known saying "all evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing."
Dunno if that's possible. To stick with the example, you can either go for gender neutral language or reject it. There is no "I'll stay out of it and do neither". Your only options are one or the other. So feels like a bit of a cop out.
For the decision itself, I don't see how he should be put in some extreme political camp for that. I think that's probably hard to understand for anyone outside the US / culture wars bubble.
There is the very obvious middle ground of "I won't make an effort for it but accept if others do", but somehow the people scared of "gender police" are always the ones that want strict rules saying that nobody is allowed to use it.
Same way nobody asked him to plaster pride flags over his project, but he went to the step of telling a contributor to please remove a flag from their avatar because showing that avatar in his project would be "political".
I suppose there's no way to not make a _decision_ though, is there? If, to stay with that example, he says "You know what, anyone can make a PR to gender any way they like", that sounds like a blood bath.
Reasonable responses I can think of are:
1. No we will not use gender neutral language here, it's a policy.
2. I think it's a good idea, but I don't have the bandwidth to make ground rules for that right now, so for the time being it will stay as it is.
3. Good idea, I'll set up some policy on that and if you have time to change things, help is appreciated.
> Same way nobody asked him to plaster pride flags over his project, but he went to the step of telling a contributor to please remove a flag from their avatar because showing that avatar in his project would be "political".
If that part is true, that's pretty wild. If he _did_ ask someone else to remove symbols from their personal avatar, that sounds as political as it gets to me... But from some quick research, I couldn't find anything about such a thing happening.
> There is the very obvious middle ground of "I won't make an effort for it but accept if others do"
And how does that work, exactly? If you get a PR to modify all the docs/code to be gender neutral you accept it? And what if in the same PR someone else vehemently opposes to the change? Or what if 2 days after the PR was merged you get a revert PR by someone else?
The thing is that you cannot just ignore "politics", politics are an integral part of our lives. Completely ignoring politics means accepting the status quo, so it's by definition a conservative position.
Ah, thanks for the link. Looks like a storm in a glass of water, I'm happy it's not something bigger. The description had me afraid akling came out as full MAGA supporter or something crazy like that.
I'd like to caution the reader that Lunduke is a notoriously biased source, having drifted off into right-wing (and particularly anti-trans) activism in recent years.
>That statement reads, in full, "This is a purely technical project. As such, it is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics or religious beliefs. Any changes that appear ideologically motivated will be rejected."
Yeah well tell me how a Web browser in the 2020s is not an ideological device. I'll wait.
Scroll through his X account -- Charlie Kirk and DHH content are some recent entries. He is one of those people who thinks tech should be apolitical without really interrogating what apolitical means or how it affects people who have been marginalized by politics
Hmm, I see what you mean. That's a little disappointing. I don't think the contents of any of his recent comments are extreme enough to consider him "controversial" yet, but the language he uses definitely remind me of supposedly "apolitical" or even "centrist" rhetoric.
What are you talking about? You’re referring to Andreas Kling, right? All I’m finding is he used to work at Nokia, then on WebKit at Apple, then founded SerenityOS, and now works on Ladybird full time. He says he was a drug addict, but is now many years clean, surely that’s not what you’re taking issue with?
I agree with you here. I want a viable non-Chromium browser.
But even if that existed, I also think a practical Chromium browser is important to have access to. I'm a developer and I use the web, so sometimes I just need Chromium. I think that will continue to be necessary for at least 10 years.
And I think the landscape of Chromium browsers is very bad. As a minimum, I want adblocking, low- or no-telemetry, timely security updates, no forced arbitration clause in its ToS, and support across platforms.
Right now, I think that makes Brave the best Chromium browser. That is not an accolade, I deeply dislike Brave, for dozens of reasons. It's just the best of a bad bunch. (But credit where it's due, I do very much like its "Shields" control.)
I only learned about Helium from this thread, but it checks almost all of my boxes. I was really excited to see a new browser that hits my checkboxes... But it's MacOS only :( Alas
You are making assumptions about me which are not correct. I am not using Firefox because it has bugs which made it stop working as web browser for me. I have had breaking problems with Firefox on every platform I've used it on.
On desktop (multiple Linuxes, Windows 7 and 10, and MacOS) I run into problems which I spend hours trying to fix, until I give up and go back to a Chromium browser. On iPadOS and iOS, it would crash when using arrowkeys to navigate URL history(or something like that, if I remember correctly. Been awhile). I had another issue with it on Android, the details of which I'd forgotten. I don't even use the sync features- these are just independent bugs.
Every time I tried to switch to Firefox, it's a time sink that ends with a broken install. I used Firefox as my primary browser in the early 00s through to ~2010. I tried to switch back every few years between 2017 and 2023.
The recent bad new changes (forced built-in advertising, new worse ToS, forced AI stuff) make me uninterested in spending more time on Firefox. I'm happy it works for you, but we are not the same person, and Firefox is entirely nonviable for me.
> On desktop (multiple Linuxes, Windows 7 and 10, and MacOS) I run into problems which I spend hours trying to fix, until I give up and go back to a Chromium browser. On iPadOS and iOS, it would crash when using arrowkeys to navigate URL history(or something like that, if I remember correctly. Been awhile). I had another issue with it on Android, the details of which I'd forgotten. I don't even use the sync features- these are just independent bugs.
And yet I, and a few hundreds of thousands of others, have used it on all of those platforms. Even at FAANGs.
If it's only breaking for you, and you alone, you can see why the rest of us are skeptical that it really is that broken.
Welcome to the HN/Social Media/Internet/Humanity! If someone has special needs that can't be fulfilled by X, they will make known about their experience and tirelessly defend against why X isn't usable for them, often with a list of reasons (I personally have a txt file full of reasons not to use X, Y, Z). It definitely doesn't mean everyone is that way, they are simply sharing their personal views on why they can't/won't use X. Arguing about this seems generally futile, as their point must be made and their opinion will probably not change regardless of anything you say.
I myself am guilty of this in the past, and I hope GP does not take offense at my writing this, as I don't intend to offend. I think it's just a feature/bug of humanity... some underlying mechanism that can possibly only be explained with psychology of lizard brains or something ;)
> If it's only breaking for you, and you alone, you can see why the rest of us are skeptical that it really is that broken.
There are several problems here.
Before anything, I want to note that we don't have to fight, we aren't enemies. We're on the same ideological side, even. This tastes like an angry and bitter internet argument. Do you taste it too?
We're just two people talking about web browsers. We don't need acrimony for each other. My bitterness is for the browser ecosystem. I am very sad about the browser ecosystem.
On that note, who are you speaking for, other than yourself, when you talk about "the rest of us"?
You are only you, and I am only me. The difference here is that you have good experiences with Firefox, and I have had bad experiences with Firefox.
Second, your skepticism is part of the problem with Firefox. In trying to find support for these issues, I mostly found people who did not believe me (or that I'm using it wrong, etc.)
The way you engage with people is common in the Firefox community, which is deleterious to the goal of having more people use Firefox. I think it's actually really important that we have a good non-Chromium non-corporate browser which people want to use, and Firefox is still the most promising one in the running.
Third, it's just incorrect to think I am alone in my issues. Some of these issues I could confirm were unfixed bugs, by finding them in the issue trackers. Others I could find with my issues in threads on Reddit, for example. Others are in this same thread we're commenting on. You can see people here talking about issues with Firefox, or needing to "Frankenstein" their install to get it to a usable state (a relatable experience for me, except I couldn't get it back into a usable state. I never want to touch user.js again.) My experience is lonely, but I am not the only person with my experience.
There is also the 94% to 98% of people on the internet who do not use Firefox. Some of those must be because they wanted to use Firefox, but had a breaking issue and went to Chrome.
People use software with bugs all the time, and Chromium and Safari's dominance is mostly because of years of costly domination from Apple and especially Google. But part of it is also things simply not working in Firefox. (Which is, also, partially due to Google expanding on Microsoft's IE-era standards playbook).
Finally, what is your position exactly? That Firefox can't possibly have the bugs I had? Or that I am lying about wanting a viable non-Chromium browser? I think you might be responding with a knee-jerk defense of Firefox, and you might assume I'm arguing in bad faith, which is fair, given this is the "Forum for Bad Faith Arguments About Computers with Some Amount of Financially-Motivated Arguments".
But I am ideologically motivated to be on Firefox's side. It's the largest browser engine not owned by a FAANG. Ideological motivation is the reason why I tried to use Firefox several times over several years, and why I spend time talking on the internet with strangers about web browsers.
Okay, let's get back to your original assertion, that FF isn't viable.
It clearly is, with hundreds of thousands of daily users. Maybe it's broken on some specific sites[1]; can you recall which sites those were?
Because it works, right now, on all the mainstream and popular sites, including every banking site I use it on, every shopping site, every wordpress site, every forum, subreddit, LLM/webchat, search engine, LoB and social networking site I used it on over the last decade and a half.
Actions speak louder than words - use FF, and then when you get to a site it doesn't work on, start Chromium, instead of complaining about the hours trying to fix it.
=============
[1] Note I am not saying that it is broken for you, I am saying that it is broken for specific sites.
It's not specific sites. See my previous comments about crashes, and about captchas. Like you said, when I use Firefox, I get to a site that doesn't work and then I start Chromium. I'm not going to use Firefox again, that's just silly.
I'm going to generally side with with ops "bitterness" here.
Sure, I don't want bad blood -- but like, I get why their tone is this way; this ain't just McDonalds vs Burger King.
Op is correctly frustrated at the "consumer is always right" mindset folks like you show. This is more important than consumer choice and (as someone who uses Firefox as a daily driver and will just bounce to Chromium as needed) "fixing a billion little bugs that you see" isn't as near as important as promoting the ideology more?
But the bugs made the browser not work for me, and I spent hours on them with no progress. The big thing are crashes, and webpages not working (usually in captcha and auth).
I read you two's conversation and didn't get an adversarial tone at any point. It sounds like you two have a difference of opinion, and are just kind of dug in on your "Apples" and "Oranges," quite honestly.
What is your definition of “viable”? Plenty of people own iPhones, which is locked down to webkit.
Similarly, firefox is fine. I switch between it chromium and safari for dev work, and (unless you go out of your way to find a counterexample) they’re completely interchangeable in terms of compatibility and real-world performance.
Firefox runs fine on android, so there’s not even a platform where chrome is the only choice (other than chromebooks).
I know this is not typical, but I just run into breaking bugs on Firefox on every platform which prevent me from using Firefox (except Intel MacOS, which I have not used, and Windows, which I haven't used in a few years.)
For Safari, the problem for most platforms is that it doesn't run on most platforms. It doesn't really count to me if I can't use it on my computers. (Caveat that there are non-Safari webkit browsers, but they're not very good.)
I like Arc browser by The Browser Company. As far as I understand it, it's made by a bunch of jaded ex-google employees, so the Google stuff is also stripped-out. The features are next level, and I feel it's a very forward-thinking browser. Maybe it will work for you
Arc was famously not built by ex-Chrome people but rather a bunch of opinionated UX folks. It amounted to what I can best describe as a glorified "skin" for Chromium and nothing innovative under the hood.
They realized they couldn't make any money with that, so they abandoned it and started Dia which was "AI". Again, they had no capability nor plan to make any solid product, was just sold to Atlassian
Actually, they really knew how to hype up their product. And their marketing videos were top notch. Innovation I suppose.
Oh you are right! I guess the site must be inferring User Agent and just presenting one download link. It looks like they have Linux, MacOS, and Windows builds.
Literally the first thing I looked for...(if it is based on chromium).
When can we get a new kind of browser that doesn't use html/css/js...? Build one from scratch with a common design language (but modifiable by the user)
Depends on your goals but I think a minimal and useful browser with completely new APIs wouldn't be so hard to do if you leverage the huge amount of existing open source libraries. The hardest part would be getting people to actually use it.
Make it markdown based. It'll be like the web once was... Just documents linking to other documents, with images and videos. We just pretend web 2.0 never happened. Everybody can write markdown so we don't even need web2.0.
Gemini is probably not exactly what GP wished for, but it has something resembling a critical mass of users and while I do not think the text format (gemtext, i.e. gmi) is perfect I find it good enough for what it does.
I even use gemtext now and then offline just as an even simpler markdown. Since it has so few features it is trivial to convert gmi to markdown or to any other format without losing anything. It works as a lowest common markup language for when something that minimal is enough.
That would actually make sense. But it would also point at the larger problem (the one we're not actually looking into because we're too busy with solving the unsolvable a.k.a. with C++).
It goes like this: are "we" building a browser for it to be reckoned with, or are "we" building a browser in order to let people browse webpages?
Because only one of these two requires collecting tens of million of... pretty much anything where ten million is a large number I guess? Yet people conflate the two, thinking the same approach holds for both goals, so let's put it sideways:
Which exact problem does a new browser (engine) solve, besides people saying there are too few browsers? What's the purpose of having this problem, its underlying nature? Can we solve it a way that doesn't require reimplementing the last 30 years of computing history? Can we even go look for such a way or will someone show up to stop us?
If the goal is to become a browser vendor, obviously there's no workaround to building a browser (or rebadging one lol); if the goal is not that or not only that, anyone building a browser is gonna have to expound a little more on what exactly they're trying to achieve. That's complicated by how the vast difference between a new browser engine and, say, a new model of TV set, can't really be expressed in beancounts.
While I agree that monopolies suck, I _absolutely hate_ having to waste my time adjusting styles and writing workaround code just to make everything look and work consistently in a multitude of browsers. This is one of the reasons — among a hundred others — that I grew to somewhat hate front-end, doubly so with the rise of mobile devices. And the more rendering engines we have, the more developers will have to fight frustrating battles with inconsistencies and quirks.
Indeed front-end development in software can be painful. Much of the cruft can be attributed to computing's byzantine history of incremental experimentation. You might take some comfort in knowing that the biological analogue is vastly more complicated: the transformation of genotype to phenotype. Trying to figure out the evolutionary pressures and various mutational accidents that drove particular biological changes feels way harder than trying to figure out WTF Project X was thinking when they decided to pivot from being a social network for dog walkers to a low-latency query planner for a database no one has heard of.
It's actually the beauty of open source that we can align on a few primitives that are reusable in several different contexts to build radically different product experiences and world views. If you think of the phylogenetic tree of software this is exactly what you want to happen.
A browser being based on Chromium has nothing to do with how private it is. Yes you are furthering an internet monopoly by using chromium. But there is noncorrelation between being based of Chromium and Privacy.
Yes it has, unless they plan to do significant changes to how the relevant JS APIs function, which is usually prohibitively expensive to maintain. Standard Chromium allows websites to fetch a lot of fingerprintable bits, this is even true for Brave. Tracking protection on Chromium is a joke.
Firefox on the other hand is better in this respect and even has a setting explicitly for resisting fingerprinting.
Calling Brave "best-in-class for resisting fingerprinting" is quite bold. Especially when it's so easily disproven.
Try some good fingerprint testing sites on Brave and see what comes up (those results alone should chock you). Then try the same sites on Firefox with privacy.resistFingerprinting=true. Unless some truly revolutionary initiatives have been taken at Brave since last I checked, you will see Firefox do A LOT better than Brave.
Brave suck at resisting fingerprinting. It may be better than other Chromium-based browsers, but it's still pathetic.
You need to look at history. In early 90s why did Microsoft invest in apple when it is its competitors. Investment doesn't mean they are medling into mozilla business.
For companies like google (present) or Microsoft in 90's.
It is better to have a crippled competitor than no competitor.
No competitor attracts government agencies for monopoly which is worse.
In the 1990s Microsoft “invested” in Apple because Steve Jobs allowed them to save face by giving them the option to settle their part of Apple v San Francisco Canyon Co by calling part of it—$150 M—a stock purchase that only lasted a few years. I do not know how much the total cash settlement from Microsoft was, but industry rumors went up to $1B.
Maybe it's also the other way around: if Firefox was legitimate competition, Google wouldn't "fund" them (quotes because really, google is also just buying user traffic with their investment).
Is Google actively sabotaging Mozilla or is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome (and Chromiumy browsers) beyond ideologist users?
I say it's the latter. Google's money doesn't actually negatively impact Firefox's competitiveness.
I dont see how the competitiveness argument can still stand. I've been using both browsers for the better part of two decades now and chrome/chromium never was the better product. Sure it had slightly better devtools for a while but nowadays it is very difficult to argue either way. Performance was rubbish on both ends for years in a row, right now both seem to do fine. Firefox has sync, a significantly better product than whatever google comes up with every two years. So yeah, I think Mozilla has a good enough product to challenge chrome. What they don't have is comparable traffic to their site.
Oh and of course focus. Mozilla has lacked focus for almost a decade now with all the random products and initiatives they launch.
As someone who almost compulsively changes browsers every so often with the mistaken belief that "there's gotta be something better" and has swung by Firefox on multiple occasions, it has never offered me any compelling reason to stick with it beyond not being Chrome.
Zen came close, but also didn't stick.
Containers seemed nice at first but my personal usage of them devolved into an over abundance of containers to isolate everything from one another (my fault, though).
On the other hand, I've had various small nits here and there that always eventually push me back towards a chromium browser.
But hey, I'm a believer in not holding on to my decisions so long that they become assumptions, so off I go to install Firefox and give it a 4th whirl since 2010.
That's gotten me married to Firefox. The hierarchical vertical tab management makes research and general web browsing far more efficient and productive. It also helps me know which tabs I can close when I'm done.
I did. TBH, it did not do much for me, but I'm pretty sure the problem is me.
I've tried all kinds of tab management things (they're usually a motivation for trying a new browser that supposedly offers a better way) and nothing ever sticks out for me.
Are you saying that, because people don't want to buy browsers, the end result is we only get the ones that can be financed by companies that sell other things (which in this day and age is ads, with only a few exceptions)?
I'd agree. Although I'd also add: people don't want to sell software anymore, they want to sell subscriptions, and I personally do not have much desire to pay $10/month for a browser (and then get pitched more services to buy on top, no doubt).
The subscription thing is key, although maybe a generational thing. I would happily pay a flat $60-100 for each major version upgrade I choose to adopt, but I won't just give them a direct monthly tap into my bank account.
It's purely a theoretical, since nobody has offered me a choice of that model - either I'm a source of ad revenue whether I want to be or not (Chrome, FireFox, Safari), or I'm in a captive ecosystem where I'm already paying a premium (Safari, Chrome for android)
> is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome
Mozilla had a browser that had huge market share and was growing, and actively destroyed it for the sake of Chrome, at the same time as they became a financial dependent of google.
> google is also just buying user traffic with their investment
Google is not buying user traffic from a browser with a 3% share and falling. Google is probably responsible for 2-300% of firefox's profits, because if they stopped paying them off, they'd have to close up shop in 6 months. Everything else they do is a failure, and if it looks like it has a chance of being successful, like Servo and Rust*, they get rid of it.
They're not going to give them money to them with a check with "Bribe to fail continually, and to never give users a feature that they would leave Chrome for ever again" written on it. Money is fungible. If they couldn't bribe them like this, they'd create an "Extensions Interop Consortium," let Mozilla host it, and fund it to the tune of a half-billion dollars. Let Google prove this "partnership" is profitable, this default search engine placement on the 3% browser used exclusively by people who are experts, know how to change their defaults, and hate google. It doesn't pass the stupid test.
But actually, they don't have to prove anything because even though they're officially a monopoly, one of the worst of the many horrible, horrible Obama judges has now affirmed that there will be no remedy, because a remedy might affect their business. He then immediately went on tour, telling audiences how the government is bullying tech companies.
[*] And maybe firefoxOS, I accidentally had one as my daily phone for a year, and it worked fine. I didn't love it and I didn't even like the idea of it, but it certainly worked.
Which sucks because it's not exactly fantastic as a competitor. There's still very, very noticeable performance differences and render speed/pattern differences that after you've been using a chromium based browser for a long time give firefox a feeling of being slow (it's not, it is absolutely just a perception thing, but it's enough to put you off using it)
Chromium: Entirely dependent on Google, a $3T company who's entire business model relies upon invading your privacy and currently has a >70% global share of browsers
WebKit: A closed source browser with ~18% of browser share and run by a nearly $4T company who forces all browsers on their mobile devices to be reskinned versions of their browser and probably wants to do the same on their other devices
Gecko: An open source browser with ~4% of the browser share, run by a non-profit with a mission of to preserve privacy but is struggling to find funding.
All three choices suck. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But there's only one option on here that isn't trying to royally fuck everyone over and actually cares about the very service we're arguing over.
So what... we're going to let the internet get screwed because a bunch of dudes making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year can't toss some beer money over to the little guy?
You paint this as a hopeless picture, but seriously, have you considered donating? Every time I see these types of threads I see comments like
> I would happily pay a small monthly subscription fee for a browser if it has strong legally protected privacy guarantees.[0]
Seriously, are we all that greedy and myopic? They're a non-profit. You know tons of companies, such as Google and every other big tech company, have some donation matching system. Google pays the Mozilla Foundation about half a billion a year to make Google the default search engine. How is the fact that they are throwing such massive amounts of money not a concerning thing? Yet FF has enough users that we could give them an extra 40% revenue if we tossed them $5 PER YEAR. That's it.
Do you really think your browser provides to you less value than your Netflix (160%/360%/500% more expensive) or Spotify (240% more expensive) account? Seriously? If literally 30% of FF users gave to Mozilla what they are willing to give to Spotify, then the problem is solved. Or 15% of users did it through their company's matching program. If instead of discouraging people, you got more people to convert then the percentage of necessary contributors decreases!
It's even tax fucking deductible so it isn't even that <$5/yr...
My problem with donating to Mozilla is the donation goes into a pocket of their greedy CEO and only a small fraction to those who do the browser development. And that’s mostly why I donate to Ladybird.
I recently purchased Firefox relay because I thought it was a nifty service to start using to prevent spam and preserve my privacy, but also a driving factor in my purchase was giving money to Mozilla. I didn't really look into it beyond that internal thought process. Your comment made me wonder, are things so segmented at Mozilla that supporting something like relay doesn't actually help Firefox in general?
Long story short, you made the right choice. You can't purchase anything from a non-profit and you can't donate anything to a corporation.
If you purchase a product from them, it goes to Mozilla Corporation which makes all the products[0], if you donate money to Mozilla, it goes to the foundation.
[0] Minus Thunderbird, Thunderbird is developed by a separate foundation. Both the "Thunderbird foundation" (not actually called that) and Mozilla Corporation are 100% owned by the Mozilla Foundation.
I’m a Mozilla employee who works on Firefox, so I’ll try to answer this to the best of my knowledge but as a disclaimer I can’t guarantee I’m 100% correct
Paying for relay will give money to Mozilla Corporation, the same pot the google money goes into, which will predominantly pay for Firefox development but also other products. The corporation’s profits also fund the non-profit Foundation’s activities.
People often raise this argument regarding donating to the Foundation, as that money will be spent by the foundation, therefore not on Firefox. But a dollar raised by the foundation is a dollar less the corporation has to give the foundation, leaving it with more money to spend on Firefox and other things.
You can also donate directly to “MZLA” which makes thunderbird, and that money will be spent on thunderbird.
The problem many people have with donating to the Mozilla Foundation us them squandering enormous amounts of it. Mostly on things nobody asked for and executive pay.
Personally, I don’t feel like firing Firefox devs and starting controversial and expensive diversity campaigns while raising executive pay when Firefox is losing market share every year is being a great steward.
People have a lot of weird excuses for disliking Mozilla. There are definitely legitimate ones, but the point really is "what's the alternative"? Are the faults of Mozilla really so much worse that we'll turn to Google instead? Honestly, that seems silly to me.
Can we just for once not blindly hate something for not being perfect and consequently strengthening an even worse option?
Could you, and everybody, stop saying this for any reason about any subject? Go through this thread, pick out all of the people saying that they hate Mozilla for "not being perfect." Argue with them.
> the point really is "what's the alternative"?
Yes, that is the point. If there were an alternative people wouldn't complain, they would just leave. But Google is paying Mozilla (and Apple by the way) massive amounts of money not to compete. Mozilla is just very-ungoogled-chromium. It is not an alternative to google, it is one of the alternatives that google offers. I use it because I don't want to leave the internet altogether. It is a pain in the ass that involves a lot of work to bring it up to 70% of the functionality and UI it had 20 years ago.
So what remains from your argument? It's been shown that Mozilla Corporation is for-profit, donations to the Mozilla Foundation do not go into the pot that pays for Firefox development, and Mozilla Corporation is 85% funded by Google.
So not independent of Google and not a non-profit.
To be clear: I use Firefox, mainly because uBlock origin is blocked on Chrome.
> Even with un-googled Chromium I do not think these statements are self-consistent. We need browsers that do not allow Google to control the ecosystem. We need legitimate competition.
If you fork Chromium, Google doesn't control the ecosystem, it controls a large part of it. But you're able to build on top of that ecosystem. So you can have the best of both worlds, all the extensions and ecosystem from Chrome but with more. That is called true competition.
I also suspect Brave would take offense to your claim you can't have privacy on a Chromium fork.
While I appreciate your perspective, the widespread adoption of Google Chrome has presented challenges. The implementation of Manifest V3 demonstrates Google's significant influence over extension developers, requiring adherence to increasingly restrictive APIs or facing limited visibility within less popular browsers.
Extension developers are not forced to adhere to anything from Google to build compatible extensions that work on forks such as Brave. If they want to be in the Google ecosystem, sure, but as I pointed out, you can build your own ecosystem on top of it.
If you build on top of it, you're not forced and unable to extend the ecosystem.
Most of these chromium-based browsers are intended to address privacy concerns. Firefox (mostly) respects your privacy.
There are also sometimes compatibility issues with Firefox because web developers only test on chromium and webkit. Anyone opinionated enough to put up with that is just going to use Firefox.
Primarily probably yes, but I think for example Brave or Arc Browser teams also had ideas for their own browser features instead of "just" making a more degoogled Chromium. Helium as well, I suppose, otherwise what's the point?
That's my (admittedly extremely limited) understanding. The Mozilla/Firefox people de-prioritized making Gecko a separate linkable library years ago, and it's no longer a straightforward thing to do. Which is a real bummer.
For me, the fact that a browser is based on Chromium is a deal breaker when compared to CPU/RAM usage of Safari on Mac OS. When I open the some JS heavy tabs like Notion, AIstudio.google.com, email, the difference is huge.
Orion is the only alternative, because as you said, it's built on WebKit, but I had trouble it working with extensions that I need for my work.
The original plan with the iPhone was to have web apps, not native apps. That's why they needed to run the rendering engine of the iPhone on Windows. Then they went native and Mac only with the dev environment.
I don't think that Apple would earn one single dollar by porting Safari to Windows again.
You used to be able to get Epiphany preview on Windows, for quite a long time after you could get Safari on Windows. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore, though.
They do, whilst they have a minor user base. If they become the majority they'll lose funding.
So from Mozilla's point of view, they must be continually worse alternative. They'd shoot themselves in the foot if they looked like the better alternative.
You say this like chromium is not the best browser experience we have. There used to be a point where everyone had to build websites for 5 different web engines, each of which had their own quirks. Now that we just build for one it's so much easier, and while chromium still does a great job I'm not sure why we'd want to create another, likely worse, engine and browser.
I use FF... but they are financially tied to Google and even technically they are waiting on Google to implement JPEG-XL instead of moving forward themselves. Why not do some work/spend some money to borrow Safari's implementation or audit and augment a third party library? Instead of waiting on Google... esp on this matter where you could be waiting for a long time.
The thing is, Gecko is really insecure when compared to Chromium. Its sandboxing is asinine. Additionally, due to lack of WebView implementation, on mobile you have to use Chromium either way, leaving you with two completely separate attack surfaces.
Quoting GrapheneOS developers[1]:
> Avoid Gecko-based browsers like Firefox as they're currently much more vulnerable to exploitation and inherently add a huge amount of attack surface. Gecko doesn't have a WebView implementation (GeckoView is not a WebView implementation), so it has to be used alongside the Chromium-based WebView rather than instead of Chromium, which means having the remote attack surface of two separate browser engines instead of only one. Firefox / Gecko also bypass or cripple a fair bit of the upstream and GrapheneOS hardening work for apps. Worst of all, Firefox does not have internal sandboxing on Android. This is despite the fact that Chromium semantic sandbox layer on Android is implemented via the OS isolatedProcess feature, which is a very easy to use boolean property for app service processes to provide strong isolation with only the ability to communicate with the app running them via the standard service API. Even in the desktop version, Firefox's sandbox is still substantially weaker (especially on Linux) and lacks full support for isolating sites from each other rather than only containing content as a whole. The sandbox has been gradually improving on the desktop but it isn't happening for their Android browser yet.
IronFox (an FF fork) developers[2]:
> While we do as much as possible to improve the situation, it should be noted that Firefox-based web browsers, including IronFox, have security deficiencies when compared to Chromium. This is especially notable on Android.
They do however have the right idea. Document sharing and applications are completely different things that require different architectures. I like their start with Gemini though I’d bring over non video images and CSS3, html5 tags that make html more intuitive. I’d just strip the browser way way down back basically to what it was with some enhancements and lessons learned. The application part is much more complex though I’m working on it and will share my research if when ready.
Helium does not have to be the destination. But it is a good step when Chromium is the standard (try using Safari and quickly websites seem uncharacteristically janky)
Yet I pick a Chromium based browser because Firefox is awfully anti-user. I still can't load extensions that are not Mozilla-approved, a major deal breaker for me. Then there's the "news" (ragebait slop) on the new tab screen by default, almost like I'm using MS Edge, and also the many sponsored & "suggested" (read: sponsored) links by default in new tab and the address bar as well.
The only acceptable Gecko-based browser I know of right now is Zen, which is great but still in beta. And Tor & Mullvad Browser are good for private one-time sessions.
We need competition for a free and open internet, I fully agree. Mozilla is far from a decent champion for that cause. I'm far more excited at what Ladybird has to offer.
Extensions in Firefox are required to be signed by Mozilla. If you make your own build of an open-source extension, it will not load. The setting to disable this check only works in Developer Edition, ESR and Nightly builds.
Firefox nightly is pretty darn stable, though I'm not sure if there's any security issues with it. I use it for both mobile and desktop, and have for the past 5~10 years and haven't had any issues that weren't fixed by immediately downloading a fresh build (this happened twice) or were caused by me performing unsupported/insane actions (transferring browser profiles (indexeddb) on mobile via CLI commands using remote devtools).
I've got one buggy device, but I suspect corruption due to the error message and I'm more interested in saving the unsyncable data I've got on that profile than I am in trying to fix it by clearing data.
Sponsor stuff that you can just turn off (Firefox) vs. Selling out your privacy directly (chromium with worse fingerprinting protection) and indirectly (Google browser monopoly).
I love Chromium ! It's the fastest browser implementation out there, and the best to handle hundreds of tabs in the background. What if, everyone was going on a fork of ungoogled chromium, there would be interest into alternative browsers to Chrome and money invested there, and at some point making forks of Chromium separated from Google might make sense business wise. So, we can impact the future of browsers by using chromium based browsers
What makes me a bit uneasy about the project is that the website doesn't explain who is building it. For most open-source, I think that would be fine. But browsers auto-update, so their vendors essentially have the continued ability to run code on your machine. You want some confidence that they won't get owned and won't sell the access to bad actors down the line, so there is an element of personal trust.
All the website gives me is the name of a Wyoming LLC, Wyoming being one of the states you incorporate in if you don't want others to be able to find out who runs the company.
Granted, you can find out a bit more on Github, but in general, if you're building privacy- and security-critical tech... I think you ought to own it.
You found the authors' screen names and some other things they've made.
That's not finding who they are. No one has signed their names, like their real names, to this. Who are they? Intelligence agents? For which country? There's no way to know.
At least one of the authors is Russian. They were giving away Helium stickers to “anyone who is in Moscow”, and not many non-Russians are traveling there nowadays.
Well it is just one those element naming chrome fork. Kinda like:
https://iridiumbrowser.de/ But that one looks have not being updated in a while. But what is the point forking Chrome browser now days since manifest 3?
I tried using Zen as I moved away from Arc, it really tries to be Arc but had a ton of issues at the time(6 months ago). Ranging from performance, different parts of UI crashing or behaving weirdly, to typos in English translations all over Settings. I settled on Brave for now because I won't give up uBlock Origin but I also didn't enjoy using Firefox long term for some reason. I honestly loved Arc, but I won't use product they won't work on anymore.
Brave is a good option too. I use brave for websites that are too junk to work in firefox. I have never used arc. I was coming from librewolf/floorp with sidebery. I really like the layout in zen, it hasnt shown the performance issues i sometimes saw in stock firefox and the vertical tab bar is good enough yo replace sidebery for me. Tge only annoyance ia how it sometomes weirdly display extensions in the truncated interface. Otger than that i am pretty happy.
For what it's worth: “All Chromium extensions are supported and work right away, by default, including all MV2 extensions. We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible.”
Whether that's worth much is of course another matter.
Do Helium, or any other browsers with intent to keep supporting MV2 extensions say what they intend to use as a repository to acquire them?
I don't think the chrome or microsoft extension websites even let you upload a MV2 extension anymore, and most chromium forks I've used rely entirely on the chrome web store.
FWIW, I think ublock is probably the most important mv2 and they've got a GitHub repo here that builds it automatically (not sure if the browser uses this, I just saw it and remembered this comment)
My thoughts exactly. I read on their website that they're a two person team who care about privacy. But how do they finance their work on these tools? Are they still figuring it out? Do they have a sustainable business model?
Agreed, and my concern is not a "NSA is monitoring my activity" but more along the lines of whether they have enough funding to staff security research and response for this browser.
I have felt like a perennial browser refugee for a while. For about 20 years now (since OG Firefox was at peak and Chrome was not yet launched), every new browser promises the same things, gets popular enough, then does a full or partial 180.
While I like the pitch of this browser, I find it a little difficult to take it at the face value, especially given there is no info on the founders, or whether it is run as a company or a non-profit etc.
Perhaps someone in this thread could answer: which company/org structure provides best guarantees against gradual, slow, multi-year rot that seems to take over everything?
I would happily pay a small monthly subscription fee for a browser if it has strong legally protected privacy guarantees.
I feel the same. For now, I've made peace with having to switch to "whatever is the latest maintained fork with privacy defaults" every 6 months. Hopefully Ladybird becomes a usable browser sometime soon.
The hard answer is the project cannot attract the good engineers anymore because it eventually stops being a growth project. Without being a growth project, you don't get investment into what you want to do anymore and there is less potential growth in your career and income.
Browsers are always going to be "as-is, best effort" . No one, not even google is going to stick out their neck and protect your privacy, that's up to you, and especially not "legally" as that has aspects of easily being sued when privacy/money is involved. Certainly not for a "small monthly fee". Best you're going to get is open source and security community scrutiny of said open source code
It's hard to predict what future generations of developers are doing, but right now Ladybird seems to have the right values embedded into their nonprofit structure.
All the other browser projects have to be enshittified eventually, and therefore have to fulfill other interests than their users' interests to get there.
For what it's worth, I like Orion - built by the same team that built the Kagi search engine. It's a shit browser for developers (inspect panel crashes half the time and other bugs), but I trust it way more than Chrome or even Safari. For development tasks - if I need to, I simply switch to Firefox.
Can someone explain to me why most browser forks are based on Chromium? If the goal is to make a privacy focused browser which is independent of Google, isn't it then a bit counterproductive to put all your eggs in a basket which only exists due to the goodwill of your main competitor? Why not webkit or Gecko? There might be a good argument for it, but as a person concerned with privacy and the future freedom of the internet, who is supposedly the target user for a browser like this, I would expect the justification to depend on Google code to be front and center on the page.
WebKit is easy but has terrible compatibility because the fruit company makes money from native apps. They do the bare minimum to keep Safari functional so that people keep buying iPhones.
Gecko has an uncertain future and is perpetually at risk of dying.
It's at least possible to switch from Chromium to WebKit if necessary so the risks of building off of Chromium are not that big.
Gecko is too big to die. Even with Firefox’s market share being a shadow of its former self, it’s still used by millions.
The real problems with Gecko is just that it’s harder to fork and has less compatibility with the web (that last part is largely just due to Chromium being the de facto standard so fewer people test their sites against Firefox).
> The real problems with Gecko is just that it’s harder to fork
That goes contrary to my experience. I'm a maintainer of a Firefox fork (with rather extensive changes to a lot of the internals), and it is pretty manageable to maintain. We manage to keep it roughly up to date and add new features without financial backing or folks working full-time on it.
If all you do is change the branding and apply some superficial stuff, Chromium might be doable, but that is hardly a new browser. Everybody who forked Chromium from the folks I know (mostly research/security testing people) gave up due to the constant churn.
For this reason, from my experience, Firefox forks are much easier to maintain once you start applying changes to internal things. Firefox is changing at a slower pace, making keeping up to date much more manageable, but that also has its drawbacks, as it does not support every crazy feature Google pushes out, e.g., WebUSB.
But, for example, folks I know maintained a v8 fork that was shelved as the introduction of Torque (which has spotty public documentation, to be very kind) means it is a complete rewrite.
I think you're conflating the Engine, Gecko, with the browser, Firefox. The Browser, Firefox, is easy to fork, judging by the multitudes of soft forks a la Libre Wolf, Zen, etc...
The Engine, Gecko, however, is hard to fork since it's tightly coupled to the browser itself.
I also think that when the parent mentioned "forking Gecko", it might be in the sense of extracting the engine and putting a new browser on top of it, just like other Webkit based browsers e.g. Orion and Gnome Web.
I'm somewhat uncertain personally about the future of Mozilla myself, as well as compatibility issues and a lack of mindshare.
Also, I feel working with the Chromium codebase is easier if you only apply superficial changes, e.g., the linked browser. The patch files are all very simple, so the fact that Chrome is generally less crufty (Mozilla is working on cleaning up a lot of ancient stuff, which causes us a lot of pain but is probably great in the long term), simply due to being newer, might make it easier to get started. Although I always felt the most significant hurdle (if you know C++ and JavaScript sufficiently well to patch a Browser) is getting the stuff to build, Mozilla is doing reasonably well on that front. Building Firefox always felt less annoying than building Chromium.
Couple main reasons: 1) BSD license vs a CopyLeft license. Edge, Opera etc don't want to push their changes back up. 2) Compatibility and performance is why Brave switched from Gecko to Chromium. 75% of the marketshare is chromium based browsers so sites will more than likely work with chromium browsers.
I don't why webkit is more popular. Maybe because it(Apple) is slow to adopt standards.
WebGPU not yet a W3C standard (it's at the previous step, as a "candidate recommendation"). Apple's WebGPU implementation went live before Firefox's implementation.
WebRTC went live in Safari the same year that the non-draft version went live in Chrome (Chrome supported the pre-standard webkit-prefixed version for some years before).
Similarly, Safari added support for WASM the same year that WASM was standardised (once again, Chrome supported a pre-standard version ahead of standardisation).
Yea the funny thing is that the real lie is that Safari is behind, that hasn’t been true for many years now.
The further irony is calling it the “new IE” when in fact it’s Chrome that is far more similar to the IE of old, at least in terms of the dirty tricks - dominant market share, uses it to push non-standards, stuffs in user hostile features to the brim, and spies on you incessantly. The only difference is it’s not terrible at performance.
My guess is just that a lot of people really like Chrome and wish they could have that without the privacy concerns. I mean honestly I'm the same, I'm just seemingly more cynical as to whether that's possible.
That plus the fact that using a chrome based browser effectively hands over a bit more control of the web to chrome. If I don't like the privacy issues with chrome, it seems like a bad idea to hand (more) control of web standards over to the company that makes it, directly or indirectly.
Everyone mentions compatibility and performance as the main reasons, but this still doesn't make any sense to me. If I switch to a browser which has a stated goal of protecting my privacy and protecting the freedom of the web, then performance and web site compatibility is much further down my list of priorities.
Even if you have personal priorities for privacy, surely you can understand that many user's first expectation for a web browser is for websites to work correctly.
We've kind of lost the plot if we get too far away from the core notion that a web browser is for correctly and completely rendering websites. The user population don't use web browsers to hide, they use it to look at the internet and do internet work. If a browser has any problems doing this, it not going to be relevant.
I'd agree but performance and compatibility bubbles up to top concern pretty quickly when you use something nearly constantly (which I'd say is applicable for a browser).
I believe that Gecko is notoriously hard to maintain and integrate into other software. It's not something I've attempted myself so take it for what it is. It was one of the issues Servo was suppose to address.
There is a few browsers based on WebKit, so that seems doable.
Sure but I only use Firefox (no other browser installed (except Edge on Windows)) and I don’t have any issues; so some none-trivial portion of the web doesn’t require Chrom(ium) specific behaviour.
Google websites intentionally degrade performance if you browse from Firefox. Facebook Messenger's E2E only works on chromium browsers. There are many websites that show popups to use chromium for the best experience. I do get it, these aren't privacy-friendly websites, but for professional purposes, lot of people are forced to use chromium browsers or user-agent strings.
The thing is, Gecko is really insecure when compared to Chromium. Its sandboxing is asinine. Additionally, due to lack of WebView implementation, on mobile you have to use Chromium either way, leaving you with two completely separate attack surfaces.
Quoting GrapheneOS developers[1]:
> Avoid Gecko-based browsers like Firefox as they're currently much more vulnerable to exploitation and inherently add a huge amount of attack surface. Gecko doesn't have a WebView implementation (GeckoView is not a WebView implementation), so it has to be used alongside the Chromium-based WebView rather than instead of Chromium, which means having the remote attack surface of two separate browser engines instead of only one. Firefox / Gecko also bypass or cripple a fair bit of the upstream and GrapheneOS hardening work for apps. Worst of all, Firefox does not have internal sandboxing on Android. This is despite the fact that Chromium semantic sandbox layer on Android is implemented via the OS isolatedProcess feature, which is a very easy to use boolean property for app service processes to provide strong isolation with only the ability to communicate with the app running them via the standard service API. Even in the desktop version, Firefox's sandbox is still substantially weaker (especially on Linux) and lacks full support for isolating sites from each other rather than only containing content as a whole. The sandbox has been gradually improving on the desktop but it isn't happening for their Android browser yet.
IronFox (an FF fork) developers[2]:
> While we do as much as possible to improve the situation, it should be noted that Firefox-based web browsers, including IronFox, have security deficiencies when compared to Chromium. This is especially notable on Android.
I don't know the internal details of the architecture, but on Windows, it's very trivial to be "Chromium". The newest web browser component has been based on Chromium for a few years.
This is neat, and reminds me of Kagi's browser Orion, since their hero image features Kagi search.
Orion is WebKit based, so it uses less battery and feels faster to me compared to Chromium browsers, yet it largely supports Chrome extensions via a compatibility layer; like Helium uBlock Origin is included by default. It also has vertical tabs which is essential for me, and open-url routing between profiles.
However, I tried it in January 2025 and gave up on using it after a few weeks of sporadic bugs. I didn't lose data or anything but some actions in the UI didn't produce any result, or they produced a confusing unintended result. I hope they get better - I will probably give it another go in a few months, especially since Arc (my current browser) is now owned by Atlassian.
I love Kagi as a search engine but the Orion UI feels too similar to Safari to really enjoy it as much.
I do enjoy vertical tabs, faster browsing, better privacy obviously. But "largely" is doing some heavy lifting in your mention of chrome extension support. I use about a dozen chrome extensions typically and about 4 of them are supported by Orion last I checked. Although of course #12 in Chrome is the Kagi search extension itself :)
The bookmarks bar seems consistently wonky though, with bookmarks showing the wrong logos (like Google Sheets showing up with the Google Docs logo, or ChatGPT showing some weirdly cropped version of itself), inability to rearrange bookmarks in a folder without opening the dedicated bookmark manager page.
If some basic usability things like this were fixed, along with adding tab groups (also big for me when I have 50 tabs open), I'd probably give it another go. Kagi search engine has largely replaced google search already for me so I'll definitely give it another go once these things are updated.
Please add a setting to disable tab hibernation. Opening my laptop on a plane only to discover most of the tabs have been offloaded makes using Orion impossible.
Tried Orion on mac for a week or two. I also had a few bugs when using google docs and sheets. I gave up because I couldn’t work. However I keep using the iOS app. It’s quite good although I need to restart the app from time to time because of some bugs.
The biggest problem with Orion is the Firefox & Chrome extensions;
Many don't work properly, but you don't see any errors, so you have no idea what parts are working and aren't.
Like using a content blocker and "hoping for the best". It might work, or not.
That's one of the reasons i stopped using Orion...
Note that Zen Browser is (yet another) Firefox fork. Might as well just use Firefox, with better settings (like Arkenfox user.js, customized how you like it). Would be better security & privacy wise.
Orion was a very unstable/buggy app. I don't know how it is now. The funny thing is when I had reached out to their support with a detailed bug report, they asked me to go to GitHub issues instead (or their feedback forum; not sure whether they had moved). I asked them to pass it to the team since I had already shared it and these were easily and always reproducible; I had added proper steps as well. They said - nope. At that point, I realised what a mistake it had been trying to "contribute" to yet another closed-source software. Mail thread deleted, browsers - both iOS/mac - uninstalled. End of story.
I'm sorry you had this experience. If you still have the bug report please send it to daniel.langh at kagi.com. I'll check on your original report and see how we can improve our communication going forward.
I am afraid I do not have those anymore. There were few in the mail and almost 20 (few of those were feature suggestions tbh) in the notes app. I later deleted those as well when I was cleaning up notes and cleared trash of the app. I just checked iCloud and it doesn't have that old history. If I use Orion again - hopefully when it's open source - I shall report bugs I find directly on the feedback site or the proper bug report channel then. Cheers.
(edited:)
Iirc it was from Jan-Feb of this year or maybe a bit further back. I am sure most of those would have been fixed. I remember one - when I would see the "all tabs" view on iOS and then click "Done" to get back to the normal usage window i.e one tab in focus and nothing happened. i.e basically returning from the "all tabs" view on iOS where you used to reach with swipe up on Safari.
Another - clear history on Mac used to crash for me. These were the most annoying and 100% repro. for me.
One more → iirc there was no way to customise (or I didn't find - not sure anymore) right click context menu on Mac. I almost always used "open in new tab" and there were too many options there which I didn't want or maybe didn't want on top.
Might’ve worth giving it another shot. It’s still somewhat buggy but usually just with UI things. I haven’t had a lot of actual functionality issues in the last couple months of use on iOS or macOS.
it's a few hundred lines worth of scripts to produce an ungoogled chromium with some nicer defaults, why wouldn't it, in case pointing that out is meant to be a criticism.
qutebrowser is not technically a "Python web browser". The GUI uses Python Qt bindings, and the browser engine itself is QtWebEngine. Python is simply the glue that ties it all together, and any language could be used instead, since performance is not a concern. This is why there are so many small niche "web browsers", such as Luakit, Nyxt, surf, etc.
Both have their pros and cons, but overall I'd go with the 10,000.
Better than either is the frequency of 3rd party audits/security reviews/research interests - but I think that comes more from usage/popularity than the size of the 1st party dev team.
IMO the problem with Firefox is that custom search engines in Firefox can't use POST requests, even though it's supported. You may want to check Mycroft Project [1] out for that.
Kagi uses Yandex to improve search results for relevant queries. That's all they do.
As a company providing the service of web search, Kagi should do whatever it takes to improve search results. I imagine Yandex is the biggest and most complete index of Russian-language content - not using it would make the search results worse. The fact that Kagi still cross-references other indexes and allows users to downgrade specific results provides a check on propaganda content.
It's OK to have an opinion, and it's OK to dislike Kagi because it doesn't have the same opinion. It's wrong to mischaracterize what Kagi does, using wording that strongly suggests actions way more nefarious than giving a few dollars to a Russian company in exchange for some (anonymized) API calls.
There is nothing about collaborating with Russian government in the post. They merely make use of a Russian-based search engine to provide better search results. I won't argue if this is good or bad, but from your statement it sounds like they collect all the users' data and sell it directly to Federal Security Service.
That's as shallow as "<anything Russian> is Russian government". Russian government certainly established strong leverage over Yandex (and every other major business for that matter), but they don't exactly own the company.
Such blanket statements really don't bring anything to the table.
PS: I think you might be confusing Yandex with VK. VK are known to be loyal to government and provide users' data to law enforcement at a whim, without proper procedures.
Yeesh, tough crowd in these comments. And yet everyone's excited for new Gmail skins. Anyway.
I hope more people take ungoogled-chromium and create new interfaces. It's a shame that Servo's in an unusable state, I'd love to see more tooling around that.
I just want someone to give me Opera 12...I suppose that's Vivaldi though.
I tried Opera a few months ago and could not stick to it. All the features they were pitching at me felt a little off. The various panel integrations were clunky and didn't seem to offer anything over just... tabs.
Maybe not surprisingly, I'm currently on Vivaldi (although it has its own issues of not infrequent slowness or hangs).
Vivaldi doesn't intend to maintain MV2, from their website:
> We will keep Manifest v2 for as long as it’s still available in Chromium. We expect to drop support in June 2025, but we may maintain it longer or be forced to drop support for it sooner, depending on the precise nature of the changes to the code.
>We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible.
This doesn't particularly give people any confidence in your product if even the devs don't know how long they can hold the line.
Why not fork Firefox like Zen?
I know this is unfair to firefox, majority of enterprise software now (including and starting with Microsoft teams) outright say do not support firefox or have ‘limited’ support whatever that means.
For anyone working remotely like me, teams is a crucial piece of software (however bad it is). So as much as I like Firefox and legends that started it and religiously developed it over the years, bottom line, I can’t use it now.
Some maybe majority of blame falls on Mozilla, they let it stagnate and focus on cosmetic changes in last few years instead of focusing on improving core technology.
> majority of enterprise software now (including and starting with Microsoft teams) outright say do not support firefox
Teams has explicitly supported Firefox for a while now https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoftteams/teams-clien... but the problem is "there's always another site that doesn't work right". Firefox usage share got too low, so places just check Chrom* and Safari work with the new feature and ship (sometimes not even the latter, if they don't care about mobile as much).
> there's always another site that doesn't work right
I keep hearing it, but personally I’ve only come across one recently (a site was running some tracking bullshit that broke on FF). And there’s one feature broken on LinkedIn.
Take that you know of 2 from recent memory and imagine someone unlucky enough to be in the top 10% of most broken sites experience by chance for the last 3 months. Those are the ones that comment/leave about it, but it's a game of attrition over a long enough time.
Webcompat used to be a lot more active (not sure if it's one of the things Mozilla has stopped actively engaging or not) but it was always a few big sites followed by an endless stream of "I'd never use that site, but that's precisely the kind of thing an average user wouldn't want to be troubleshooting" stuff. E.g. I remember seeing https://webcompat.com/issues/136422 and thinking "yeah, the hospitals I used to work at stopped testing in Firefox too - and the sites are already frustrating when they work as expected".
I know of 2 from the past few years. I mean yeah, this is n=1, others use other sites which do break etc. It’s a sad state of things, but also most of the web does work the same. It’s certainly not an acceptable tradeoff for everyone, but for me it’s been totally fine.
Feels like we need something like early versions of Edge, where it was using Chromium but could be told to open individual tabs (or configured to always open links to certain origins) in an IE webview.
Except, instead of Chromium, Firefox, and instead of IE, Chromium.
I assume you mean early edge2. The first release of edge (project spartan) used a custom rendering engine and javascript runtime. The chrome-based version released five years later.
It might have died with e10s but there was a firefox extension that let you embed IE in a tab on demand or for certain sites.
Many vendors look at the userAgent. I’d be surprised if Microsoft Teams org doesn't have some soft incentives pushing Edge and if not edge Chromium-based browsers.
Then again, there are definitely some Firefox behaviors that differ from the WebKit-derived engines (webkit, blink, etc); for a few years Notion editor had very different UX in Firefox for this reason. They eventually fixed it though! Firefox's profiler is also excellent, I always analyze my Chrome profiles in https://profiler.firefox.com/ when I'm optimizing CPU use.
1. Great if you have a wider screen (could never do it on my old 13" Macbook Air, for a 15" it's pretty good but for a 24" iMac it's perfect). But if you need the space youjust have it set to minimize by default, maximize on hover.
2. See the titles of your browser tabs, which is great when you are like me and never have fewer than 30 tabs open at once.
3. Easier to select browser tabs when you have many of them open (ie they don't get squished unreadably small)
I still use horizontal tabs, but have dabbled with vertical tabs. The biggest benefit I saw was that tab names stayed a consistent width and readable, no matter now many tabs I had open. With horizontal tabs, once you have over 10-15, you’re kind of flying blind.
Basically, it's easier to see tab titles when you have a LOT of tabs open.
They really only work if you have a large monitor. I use a 50" 4k TV and two other monitors, and a 15" laptop. When I'm on smaller screens I have to hide the tabs.
Your typical screen today is wider than most content on the web needs it to be, so most web pages render as tall columns with ample margins. Vertical tabs use up that space efficiently to show a large number of tabs in a way that makes it much easier to see all your tabs at a glance without losing track because the titles are shortened into nothing.
Edge for me, since it has the single best implementation of vertical tabs on the market, with smooth expand on hover. Every time I try other browsers, I am immediately put off by how lacking in polish vertical tabs feel in comparison and go back.
Pretty happy with it; I tried basically all browsers out there, fully switching to them for some time even if I didn't even like them, and after all that time I found Vivaldi the best overall browser right now (for me).
Vivaldi is clunky and slow because the entire user interface (tab bar, address bar, title bar if enabled, etc) is a webview rather than native-ish controls like all other browsers.
Firefox's new implementation is subpar. You're better off using an add-on like Sidebery for more features, but you need custom user chrome CSS to hide the horizontal tabs.
I really don't see many similarities between Orion and Arc but I also didn't use Arc very much because I was pessimistic that it would stay free and consistently updated without annoying monetization features. I didn't expect them to switch to a brand new browser though lol.
How will they make money? Or is this always meant to be OSS community supported?
The challenge is that people have to get paid and infrastructure to build things costs money. Looks like there are only two people full-time at the company right now, though even then eventually they’ll need some revenue stream.
I love this project, but to have confidence that it stays that way it would be nice to see how they’ll replace they’ll stay afloat.
Security updates to fix zero-days? Google releases those very often and such forks take a long time to integrate them (even big forks) so I would not trust such a small team.
Yes. I left a feedback about a website posted on HN, turns out it works just fine on the latest version of Vivaldi, but not a previous version from a few months ago. So yeah, gotta keep it updated. :(
I really have no interest in using a Chromium/Blink browser at this point, that's the real kicker for me.
I would prefer to use and support browsers using alternate rendering engines and without any ties back to Google, even if it means I personally get a lesser experience, because I don't trust Google and I want to ensure they don't entirely control the direction of the browsable internet.
Does it have manifest V2 like CNAM filtering? And if it's chromium based how is it going to support back port of features that are making it to chromium without investment in a robust dev team?
But in this day and age, I need to understand more about intentions, and what sustains projects like this.
For the moment I've settled on Safari simply because Apple makes its billions elsewhere, even if I am increasingly disappointed with how they are playing along with politics right now.
Right now? All major corporations play along with whatever the current political winds are. Your own personal biases don't matter in their decision making.
Apple has released several privacy features, their slogan is “Privacy. That’s Apple.”, and they make their money from hardware. Even if not a perfect company it’s sure as hell a better bet than MS or google.
I still (unfortunately) am stuck with kiwi as well. I use it almost exclusively for a few webapps that use large amounts of indexeddb storage (>10gb) without a working export method[1]. With Firefox, I was able to export this data with devtools over ADB[2] to another Firefox install.
I really wish someone would create an indexeddb shim that interfaces with another system and only uses indexeddb for (very large) cache. Something I could drop in with a userscript would be lovely, even if it required running a local server with something like rsync or rclone responsible for the actual transfers.
[1]: dexie import export used to work, now it never returns. I have no way of verifying that it's doing nothing without putting it in background (thus suspending it...), but I've let it run 3 hours with no results.
[2]: Firefox doesn't allow backing up app data for some reason but devtools functions allow reading and writing the profile directory through the use of terminal commands (zip profile directory, unzip and restart browser).
I learned about this project from Theo (T3 guy), and his approval of it, make of that what you will.
Not 100% related but I found it funny that on that specific video, in which he spends the best part of 40 minutes talking about how the only browsers that are worth talking about are ones which "improve" your browsing experience beyond Chrome, which is the de facto "decent" browser. He mentions Zen and Vivaldi as examples.
He then finishes the video gushing about how he loves helium, which is just ungoogled-chromium lol
Unlike others, I like that it's Chromium because it means I get the devtools. Whenever I try to use other browsers I always get held back by how they work in other browsers, and I do a lot of front-end dev.
I'm posting this comment from Helium and so far, so good! I would honestly say ignore the naysayers, everything is a trade off, including which browser engine you put under the hood.
I'm less interested in privacy browsers that just use Chromium and then slap some chrome around it.
Instead, what I want is a browser that actively blocks annoying page behaviors. For example, I want a browser that makes all text on a page selectable, prevents a page from trapping right-click, prevents a page from accessing the clipboard, ect, ect.
> We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible
I can maybe overlook it being based on chromium, but I don't want to migrate to a new browser and have to migrate again when uBlock Origin stops working eventually.
Zen browser is my home currently, I think Arc has broken my ability to move back to traditional tab management.
I think it's a mixture of dislike for Google/Chrome and the constant Chromium reskins that dominate the browser market + Firefox evangelism.
I'll personally say I don't hate this project as such, I mainly use a Chromium based browser because I build a product that uses the FileSystem API with a directory picker [0] and the FileSystem Observer API [1]. Both of which aren't supported anywhere except Chromium based browsers.
I used to use Thorium, but last build was out in February and I simply can't use that as my main browser, so now I simply use ungoogled-chromium.
I can easily avoid any Google telemetry, use uBlock Origin with MV2, Privacy Badger and the plus point is all sites work. I love Firefox as well, but I feel you can't do much about the fact all "regular" people end up using Chrome or Safari; so while developing on the web you simply can't become a Firefox main and avoid chromium entirely.
Generally because there's not that much to comment on, as this is effectively a somewhat prettier ungoogled chromium, and so there's not much room to make positive comments. Though I agree people get caught up in negativity easily.
There's a lot of comments around this in the main thread. Mostly about how Google gets to dictate standards of the internet and how these aren't always privacy friendly.
I'll also add that it's easy for bad features to sneak in without users knowing. We happened to be talking about this issue in a related thread just the other day [0]. This one the Brave devs were even aware of bot users weren't... so it's kinda a good example of both points
I'm not sure why I'd bother using this when it's just another Chromium browser.
As it currently stands, I'm leaning more into WebKit-based, but for daily use it's Firefox. I'm not happy with any of them, but I'd struggle to pick just one right now.
Back about 20 years ago there was a lightweight Gecko-based web browser called 'Camino' that was a delight compared to Firefox or other 'full' browsers. It was fast, simplified, and still rendered pages well. I didn't always use it, but it was a joy to use.
I downloaded Helium and gave it a spin and my first impression was "Ah, it's like Camino all over again". I can't use this for my job where I need to use stock {Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Edge} because our customers do - but for personal browsing I'm currently using Arc which is very comfortable but heavy, I might try to use Helium for quick simple things when I want less overhead! Thanks for sharing!
I was excited for a new Helium browser release and it just turns out that people these days don’t even do a single google search before using a name that is already taken.
The cask has not been majorly updated in almost 10 years years and is used to connect to a mobile app that hasn't been on the Play Store for almost 5 years, while easily underneath the minimum threshold of downloads for being removed. What's wrong with asking to expedite the removal process, considering the process is detailed in the guidelines?
> What's wrong with asking to expedite the removal process, considering the process is detailed in the guidelines?
Asking is one thing, the other thing is not accepting the decision of a maintainer on a topic that is at the maintainers discretion and instead taking it to social media [1] [2] for it to be brigaded.
Addendum: It additionally appears that this was filed before the browser was even launched, if the Wayback Machine and their social media posts are anything to go by.
My biggest gripe with Safari is that it only handles the few blessed search engines Apple has chosen.
On my personal systems I can use the extension to hack Kagi support in there, but it’s a bit of an ugly solution.
On my work laptop, we aren’t allowed to use the App Store, so I can’t get the extension. This means if I want to use Safari and Kagi, I need to go to the actual Kagi homepage, which is a very annoying behavior pattern.
I used Firefox for a while at work because of this, but now that’s been blocked too. I’m trying really hard not to give in and use Chrome, but at this point, it would make my work life easier. It supports adding other search engines natively, which is quite ironic.
I submitted feedback to Apple about this. They have integrated some of my feedback into past releases (silence unknown callers, most notably), but they must have some silly business reason for not allowing this, which is very disappointing.
Is there a reason for not having Issues on their main repo? Especially since they're in a beta stage; they don't have to fix/acknowledge all issues, but as an end-user they're pretty useful for debugging, seeing actual human feedback.
I tried it a few days ago, a privacy-focused Chrome that doesn't break browsing experience resonates with me. The team seems to care about quality and the browser felt good overall.
A few things that made me go back to Brave:
- No vertical tabs
- Sync with mobile
- I haven't found how to show bookmarks bar only on blank page
- Little customization for new tab page (might be fixable using extensions)
I'll definitely follow the project as Brave is far from perfect too.
Regarding the bookmarks bar, Settings / Appearance / Show Bookmarks Bar. If the setting is off, the bar only appears on new tabs. I found that by accident.
While I am not interested for the same reasons many others have stated here, I would like to point out that their privacy policy is exemplary:
> Helium does not make any network requests, including to the Services, unless such requests are the result of user actions (for example, visiting a website or installing an extension) or are part of features that the user has explicitly enabled or configured during setup. If Helium is making any network requests without your consent, please file a bug report.
If any devs are reading: please add compact tabs like safari and an extension that summarizes pages/video transcripts and enables LLM chat with that context.
There are a lot of privacy browsers floating around. I'm a big fan of Brave, and it took me some digging to see the difference.
In my case, the lack of sync is a big show stopper for me. Brave syncs without "cloud." Instead, it syncs when you have the browser open on both devices.
What is the auto-update mechanism on macOS? One of the primary reasons I use ungoogled chromium is because I can update it via homebrew myself. I don’t trust browsers with running invisible background auto-updaters.
While chromium deep down, it seems they mostly ripped and repackaged from defunct projects and companies such as ungoogled-chromium and the irridium browser, right? Why would 2 cat avatars carry what others obviously failed to maintain?
Releasing a browser without cross OS support incl. mobile devices, makes no sense now a days. Extension support and bookmarks sync is also a must have. That's why Firefox is still my browser.
Highly doubt that, as they’re already known in the OSS community. Browser Co. expanded as fast as possible without any way to make revenue, then ditched their flagship product to make a bad agentic browser
So another Chromium based browser featuring the usual 'Privacy' and a collection of miscellaneous features. Maybe 'AI' will be added.
None of this appears to go beyond what some browser extension could do. Personally I'm not seeing the appeal.
As a side note, the very similar Arc browser was just sold off to Atlassian for a quick exit.
They're 30+ million lines of code to cover the feature set, but monetization is tough and security/feature churn is constant. It's also nearly meaningless to start small - either you build everything or you don't.
This is just Chromium with some patches though, the problem with these kinds of things is it's small groups that tend to lose interest.
It's a good plan to plug-in AI into chromium and sell it to someone like atlassian. Or you know, ask MS to invest a couple mil and buy azure infrastructure from them. VC go brrr..
I'll stick with FF or brave until Mullvad or else comes up with a good alternative
Why did anyone think it was a good idea to put tabs in the title bar. How the hell am I supposed to easily drag a window if I have 100 tabs open? Who the hell thought this was a good idea? Why do I feel like the only sane human being left on Earth? Why is this project continuing to use this horrible UI convention?
How are they going to make money or enshittify this in the future or sell it off to an evil billion dollar corporation who will sell my data off to god knows who?
I would hate to have a 40px title bar doing nothing except wasting space on my screen. I've been using this layout for years, and I didn't even consider that anyone could have an issue with this until I read your statement.
I'm not saying that you are wrong to disregard it due to your personal preferences, but please consider that this might not be such a horrible design as you make it out to be. Also, you can be certain that you are not the only sane person left - I think it's just that most of them don't show up on boards and forums.
The parent post is overly strongly worded, but I agree with the meat of it: tabs should not be in the title bar of the window. It's worse usability for a space savings that really isn't relevant because it's so small.
Just because it is not doing anything at the moment doesn't mean it doesn't serve an important, necessary purpose. For a windowed application environment to be functional and usable, there needs to be an easy way to drag windows around the screen. When you start moving things into that space, it makes the system harder to use.
A once-simple action which required minimal thought now requires you to parse an arbitrarily populated area of the screen and find a tiny gap within a litany of buttons and controls and carefully drag that part of the window. If you make a slight mistake and click on a tab or button, the unwanted activation of that control (e.g. switching to a new tab) serves to needlessly penalize the user.
This is not just an issue with web browsers now, but seemingly everywhere. It's been a big issue in the macOS Finder for a while now.
At the very least, Firefox still gives me the option to show the native window title bar, which I very much appreciate. It's certainly not the sexiest part of the UI, given the native element clashes a bit with FF's controls, but at least it's usable! This is an issue that could be solved by giving people a choice via a simple toggle... Most often, the option isn't there.
I'm sorry people have downvoted my post here a bit, and I agree it was a bit strongly worded, but I won't apologize for venting some frustration at what I see as the perpetuation of user-hostile design choices like this.
There is some space you can click on for dragging the window, or on Linux just hold Alt and move the window. I have an application for Windows that allows me to do the same.
Thanks for this reply. This comment chain sent me through an existential crisis.
OP made it sound like tabs in the title bar was a new innovation.
"The parent post is overly strongly worded, but I agree with the meat of it: tabs should not be in the title bar of the window. It's worse usability for a space savings that really isn't relevant because it's so small."
I was nodding to this.
But I'm also someone who cares about vertical screen real estate (enough to call it vertical screen real estate).
So I was in a hypocritical conundrum. Do I care about the title bar, or do not care about the title bar?
Check firefox. Wait wtf, my firefox has no title bar! Did I customize it myself, I don't remember removing it???
> Why did anyone think it was a good idea to put tabs in the title bar.
Because we decided it was a good idea to keep making monitors wider and wider and wider without making them any taller, and not everyone wants vertical tabs.
You can pry my 16:10 monitor from my cold dead fingers. Give me a 3:2 and you'll never get it back.
Why do you have 100 tabs open in the same window, anyways? Use tab groups and profiles, with a secondary window for session-tabs that'll get closed soon. Having too many tabs is like having too many desktop icons, but worse.
I’d rather ask, why are desktop environments continuing to use the horrible UI convention of stacking window managers? In a tiling window manager, there is no reason to waste space on a draggable window bar.
Even with un-googled Chromium I do not think these statements are self-consistent. We need browsers that do not allow Google to control the ecosystem. We need legitimate competition. So what, our choices are Firefox (Gecko), Safari (WebKit), and Ladybird?
Personally I go with Firefox on most devices and Orion (WebKit) on my iPhone and iPad.
This seems like something pretty easy to mess up. Maybe it is good now, but it sure is going to be a cat and mouse game.I really would be curious to have some breakdown comparison with something like the Mullvad browser (Gecko). I have a lot of trust for both the Mullvad and Tor teams. They have a much longer history working with this kind of stuff and have been consistently updating it since release. Launched in early 2023[0] and last update was last week[1].
[0] The Mullvad Browser (mullvad.net) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35421034
[0.5] Mullvad Browser (torproject.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37159744
[1] https://github.com/mullvad/mullvad-browser
Yeah, everyone is doing their little contribution to help Google take over the Web and turn it into ChromeOS Platform.
Why did we ever bothered with the IE lawsuit, for a newer generation to give the Web on a plate to Google?
Because at the time IE6 was a terrible browser with poor standards support, while Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support. It is a gilded cage.
> Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support.
Google learned it can be "standards compliant" if it submits a draft spec to WHATWG/W3C, and while the comment and revision process is still ongoing, roll out those features in Chrome and start using them in YouTube, Gmail, Google docs, and AMP. Now Firefox and Safari are forced to implement those draft specs as well or users will leave in droves because Google websites are broken. Soon enough, Google's draft spec is standardized with minimal revisions because it's already out there in the wild.
The debate, revision, and multistakeholder aspects of the standards process have been effectively bypassed, a la IE6 and ActiveX, but Chrome can claim to be on the cutting edge of standards compliance. This is a case of Goodharts's law.
I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.
Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.
- All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...
- Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome.
- Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/
Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API
push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.
Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.
WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.
Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation?
Who knows.
Not us, we’ll never know.
To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago.
And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM).
Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac.
So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.
Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu
We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website.
If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features.
Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.
But the other browsers objected yet Chrome still shipped them
QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.
Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.
It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret
Any serious antitrust process would break it in a separate company.
Would that change anything? If you have a separate company who owns a 90% market share browser, they can keep ignoring standards just fine
If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.
If people want specifics:
https://xcancel.com/rich_harris/status/1220412711768666114
That is revisionism, IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition, like Chrome is today, and Microsoft withdraw most of the development resources from the team.
WPF XAML was originally designed by ex IE team members, and they were the same that a few years later proposed XAML Grid concept as CSS Grid initial design.
Many JavaScript devs have to thank their abuse of JavaScript in the browser to XMLHttpRequest introduced by IE.
> IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition
Yeah, people forget that IE was a great browser. It was easily the most performant, I think driven by the Outlook web (I believe the first web app to make use of XMLHttpRequest) team demanding IE team make it so. The issue, like you said, is they won and then stopped updating.
Maybe for a short period. Honestly Firefox(phoenix) was my browser of choice.
Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.
> Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.
Default helped, but IE was the far superior browser for a long time. People chose to use it.
I was also a FF user and it came out a few years later than IE6. When FF came out IE6 was still the superior browser, though it was eventually overtaken by both FF and Chrome.
It was sad to me watching that battle unfold. Maybe i was ignorant (and maybe i still am), but I learned most of what i know about web dev on Netscape sitting in a mac lab at university viewing source code. I HATED when IE started to takeover and eventually won that first battle. I miss Netscape :-(
Revisionism? I was around then and I implemented plenty of sites in IE. It always had bugs that other browsers did not (and there were more than two engines back then). Maddening lack of support of features that other browsers had implemented, often requiring crazy workarounds. Transparent PNGs didn't even work! Not to mention all the proprietary crap like ActiveX.
What do you expect from browser itself? It loads html + js . It’s no longer center of innovation.
To Google execs, a browser is a rectangle on your screen that you click on while it delivers you ads.
Support for PNG alpha channel
Tabs would have been a nice feature to add.
> leading standards support
"Leading" being the operative word. Ship a new feature, submit it as a standard and encourage its adoption so things only work on chrome and further increase market share when people find other browsers "broken".
MS did exactly the same shit with IE - the only really difference was that the standards body (w3c) was independent, so they couldn't self declare it as a standard. Now the "standards" body (whatwg) is mostly google...
That was quite a move from Google, replacing the independent W3C with the Google lapdog whatwg...
It is nice when you have replaced the original standard committee with your own committee. You can always have "leading standards support".
MS was not smart enough to do this. Google was smarter.
Isn't part of the issue that they have a big hand in defining the standards?
Right, and I would add: normalizing an accelerated rate of new standards adoption and vast codebases that only they can sustain.
leading standards support
Except no support for:
And broken support for: Source: https://caniuse.comThe whole "Chrome is the leader in standards" meme is a lie.
Your copy&paste does not support your argument. Just looking at the top items on your list, it's basically a bunch of Safari-only features which no other browser vendor ships:
- CSS Canvas Drawings is not a web standard. It's a WebKit-specific feature, only Safari implements it. Chromium removed it in order to replace it with an actual web standard (CSS Painting API).
- Likewise, the CSS filter() function is Safari-only.
- U2F API has been deprecated for years, was replaced by WebAuthn, and only Safari still implements it.
- Same with SPDY, which was replaced by an actual web standard (HTTP2). Only Safari still ships it, but has marked it deprecated.
- SVG Fonts were removed from the SVG spec.
- HLS, JPEG-XL, HEIF/HEIC are essentially Safari-only as well.
CSS hanging-punctuation and audio/video tracks are new features that haven't been widely implemented yet.
Considering there's 2 browsers, 3 if we're being generous, basically every new feature is a bunch of X-only features that Y doesn't support.
>Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support
Yes, Chrome has leading standards™ [1] support!
_________
[1] A so-called standard™ is a piece of source code that sits on the main branch of the Chromium repository. Not to be confused with actual standards!
The "standards" are now effectively controlled by Google.
the IE6 lawsuit was about web browser monopoly, not a complaint for poor tech.
Just to remind everyone though, Microsoft won that lawsuit on appeal.
So the history here is that Microsoft lost its monopoly on its own poor decision making.
The last thing Google would want is the web to turn into a Chrome platform. Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win. This is exactly why they open-sourced most of Chrome and almost fully finance Chrome's biggest competitor.
>Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win.
I feel like there's a missing step in the argument here. Yes Google's revenue comes from the web, yes Chromium being open source and paying for search deals are a hedge against anti trust, but why does it follow that they wouldn't want to dominate the browser space? They do, and it seems to be working quite well for them. But it feels more like a minimum effort hedge against antitrust then a demonstration of a healthy ecosystem.
Also, every time Chromium comes up you have people pointing to it like it's a counterpoint to their browser dominance. It's open source, so what's the issue? But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers. So it is controlled by Google after all.
>But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers.
Not if you fork it.
I understand that "just fork it" has been the canonical response to disagreements over direction of open source software. Sometimes that's the right call, the world is better for having a forked Syncthing, forked Nextcloud, and so on.
But I think there are cases, such as Chromium where the "just fork it" response is unrealistic about the burden of maintaining a codebase or the ongoing relationship to new updates, or not having capacity to solve new problems or comply with new standards in Google-independent ways. Part of the problem of Chromium is that it's normalized a velocity of development and of codebase size in exactly the way you would if you were going for embrace-extend-extinguish.
And the foundational point is still true, Google controls commits to Chromium, so the core project itself is not ever going to be an organic manifestion of community desires for an egalitarian internet. It's going to be whatever helps consolidate Google's monopoly.
You're not wrong, but there are organizations which could hard-fork Chromium, it just happens to be more productive to collaborate as long as Google remains a good steward.
They already did, Safari is the only one left standing, by the market share.
Plus all the Electron crap that gets shoved as "native".
The only reason Safari has any market share is because it's the default on every iPhone.
4/5 top browsers by market share are there because they are preinstalled on millions of devices and none of them are terrible enough for an average person to look for an alternative.
Exactly right and I wish more people understood this as the key dynamic driving change in browser adoption. Just for one more example, what little toehold Edge and Bing have right now are from muscling those in front of people as defaults.
Which I think is important as it relates to Mozilla. Because a lot of the arguments back and forth about Mozilla assume that change in browser adoption was about what features they did or didn't add. But I think that completely ignores powerful actors leveraging monopoly positions to drive users to their browsers, which is more important by several orders or magnitude. Any explanation of that history which leaves that part out is revisionist history in my opinion.
Indeed, otherwise the only thing left would be ChromeOS Platform and its forks.
I disagree wholeheartedly, the current state of browser market share has nothing to do with how good any of the browsers are, it's just monopolistic behavior. Device manufacturers should force you to pick one during setup, which is absolutely a reasonable policy decision away.
In fact, as of this year, Apple devices in the EU already have to ask you which browser you want to use during the setup process, while Android devices don't have to ask you which browser you want to use, but do have to ask you which search engine you want to use. It is a bit inconsistent and arbitrary, but it's a step in the right direction.
But chrome is not default and people still go to install it
What do you mean? It is on many Androids and every Chromebook.
I just checked some website stats I have access to and ~78.6% of iOS users use Safari. On Android on the other hand, ~76% of them use Chrome, ~8.1% uses the Samsung Browser, and there's a marginal amount of people using other manufacturer-provided browsers like Huawei Browser and MIUI (Xiaomi's default). Of course I don't know the exact manufacturer of Android phones to be able to tell what percentage of say Samsung devices switched to Chrome, but I'd say the pattern's still pretty clear.
The only people likely to switch browsers are desktop users, but they total to <20% of the traffic. Funnily enough Chrome isn't even the top browser overall, it's Safari, but that tells you more about my clientele (richer than average for my target market).
I meant on windows
Windows itself doesn't matter anymore, on that same website it's at 11.9%.
not merely default but enforced.
An alternative explanation is they fund Mozilla to avoid a monopoly breakup. The evidence? The fact that everyone currently knows exactly how much Google pays Mozilla because of the recent attempt to do a monopoly breakup.
It was also a time before Google demoted "Don't be evil." from their company literature.
the (very challenging) "trick" is to use Libre hardware/software, like Pinephone and LineageOS, but that's not realistic for the vast majority of people :(
> So what, our choices are Firefox (Gecko),
Don't forget Servo. People are actively working on it, and it could use more help.
It's not just anyone, it's the folks at Igalia. I think people disregard Servo since it's no longer under Mozilla but Igalia aren't just random contributors picking up the slack, they're browser experts that also work on Chromium.
Personally, I disregard Servo because I've been hearing about it for 10 years. I'll start paying attention again when they remove the "don't log into your bank with Servo" warning.
Done. Now you can use it.
Won't servo thus become just a translation of chrome?
Maybe it's just me, but from time to time I try latest Servo build and it never survives more than few minutes of usage before crashing. Last time I did it was 3 days ago, I opened a website and it crashed with "RefCell already borrowed" in what seems to be a logger module. This always strikes me as weird because one of the selling points for Rust is memory and thread safety (quote from the website: "eliminate many classes of bugs at compile-time").
This is perfectly safe behavior, would you prefer it slightly corrupting the destination address when transferring money through online banking?
Yes it's safe but undesirable, like Java's NullPointerException.
A more interesting question is why it was not possible to use compile time borrow checking in this particular case. It shows how valuable the borrow checker is when you can use it.
Well, yeah it's a bug just like the NullPointerException. You see how a buggy program behaves.
It's unwanted though.
I'd rather use the C++ app that doesn't crash than the Rust browser that crashes safely.
The last time I had firefox crash was over a decade ago.
I think they're just asking for it not to crash.
Hopefully the Ladybird browser will become a viable choice soon
Did Andreas even mention anything about extensions in Ladybird?
I hardly can imagine browsing the Internet without ublock origin or other extensions like cookie autodelete, privacy badger, ublacklist
Nothing yet. https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/issues/976#issue...
I don't use an ad blocker, I just don't look at the ads. Cookie alerts are a pain though. For privacy I just run in Incognito mode in Chrome or private mode in Safari.
If you can't modify it to hell and back it's dead in the water IMO. I had to frankenstein my firefox over several weeks to get it to a usable state.
I think we're many years off it even being viable for most people
They haven’t solved security yet. They are doomed to repeat Firefox/Chrome issues until they start using that Swift.
what's Swift's role in security?
Memory safety. A more serious reply, discussed last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41208836
I think the main repo does not have Swift yet.
I'm glad you asked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwiftOnSecurity
I hope that not. Or at least, get out of the control of the controversial person behind it.
If I would put all the eggs on a basket, I will prefer Servo.
Does the person's political opinion even matter if the product is good quality ? 20 years ago, nobody used to care.
I remember the times, too, when the person behind the code did not matter. The code did.
I had to google the controversy, found one dedicated blog site page about it, read it thoroughly and think it is insane to call this dude controversial based on what I read on https://hyperborea.org/reviews/software/ladybird-inclusivity...
I'm tired of people who are doing such great work being labeled politically over things like pronoun preferences and somehow this is supposed to make us wish for the projects failure OR the founder's expulsion from his own project.
(oh dear I forgot to imagine the project lead could also be female - damn you English language!)
Knew what the "controversy" was without even clicking.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45371016
Yes, it does. Otherwise we wouldn't care that really great shoes are stitched together by indentured children somewhere far away.
I am deeply ashamed to know that the Ladybird browser was being coded by indentured children somewhere far away. Your thoughtful and considerate "Strawman Argument" has fully enlightened me.
Look, you could have said "I don't know what you mean. Explain it to me." And I would have tried and we would have had a civilised discussion why we think what we think.
But you, by resorting to sarcasm, inappropriate quotational use of a term, and distorting my sentences, demonstrate that you understood what I said and what I meant. This, in turn, tells me you think it is okay to deny people liberty, equality and justice, as long as the product is swell. In fact, I think you think that's OK even if there is no product.
I could argue some more, but this is the internet. So I leave it be and remind myself of the well-known saying "all evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing."
The Brenden Eich Mozilla CEO gay marriage controversy was back in 2008, so 17 years ago. Not quite 20, but arguably we also did "used to care".
Do you would like to use a software or website made by MechaHitler ?
Me no. And 20 or 30 years some people used to care about that stuff. The same thing could be said about if it's opensource or not.
PD: So yes, I don't have any account now on that site that was called "Twitter".
[flagged]
Controversial by saying he doesn't want politics in software. For me that is a good thing.
Dunno if that's possible. To stick with the example, you can either go for gender neutral language or reject it. There is no "I'll stay out of it and do neither". Your only options are one or the other. So feels like a bit of a cop out.
For the decision itself, I don't see how he should be put in some extreme political camp for that. I think that's probably hard to understand for anyone outside the US / culture wars bubble.
There is the very obvious middle ground of "I won't make an effort for it but accept if others do", but somehow the people scared of "gender police" are always the ones that want strict rules saying that nobody is allowed to use it.
Same way nobody asked him to plaster pride flags over his project, but he went to the step of telling a contributor to please remove a flag from their avatar because showing that avatar in his project would be "political".
I suppose there's no way to not make a _decision_ though, is there? If, to stay with that example, he says "You know what, anyone can make a PR to gender any way they like", that sounds like a blood bath.
Reasonable responses I can think of are:
1. No we will not use gender neutral language here, it's a policy.
2. I think it's a good idea, but I don't have the bandwidth to make ground rules for that right now, so for the time being it will stay as it is.
3. Good idea, I'll set up some policy on that and if you have time to change things, help is appreciated.
> Same way nobody asked him to plaster pride flags over his project, but he went to the step of telling a contributor to please remove a flag from their avatar because showing that avatar in his project would be "political".
If that part is true, that's pretty wild. If he _did_ ask someone else to remove symbols from their personal avatar, that sounds as political as it gets to me... But from some quick research, I couldn't find anything about such a thing happening.
> There is the very obvious middle ground of "I won't make an effort for it but accept if others do"
And how does that work, exactly? If you get a PR to modify all the docs/code to be gender neutral you accept it? And what if in the same PR someone else vehemently opposes to the change? Or what if 2 days after the PR was merged you get a revert PR by someone else?
The thing is that you cannot just ignore "politics", politics are an integral part of our lives. Completely ignoring politics means accepting the status quo, so it's by definition a conservative position.
> the controversial person behind
Did I miss a controversy somewhere?
The "controversy" is probably referring to this: https://lunduke.locals.com/post/5823666/ladybird-web-browser...
Ah, thanks for the link. Looks like a storm in a glass of water, I'm happy it's not something bigger. The description had me afraid akling came out as full MAGA supporter or something crazy like that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45371016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45371216
I'd like to caution the reader that Lunduke is a notoriously biased source, having drifted off into right-wing (and particularly anti-trans) activism in recent years.
>That statement reads, in full, "This is a purely technical project. As such, it is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics or religious beliefs. Any changes that appear ideologically motivated will be rejected."
Yeah well tell me how a Web browser in the 2020s is not an ideological device. I'll wait.
Scroll through his X account -- Charlie Kirk and DHH content are some recent entries. He is one of those people who thinks tech should be apolitical without really interrogating what apolitical means or how it affects people who have been marginalized by politics
Hmm, I see what you mean. That's a little disappointing. I don't think the contents of any of his recent comments are extreme enough to consider him "controversial" yet, but the language he uses definitely remind me of supposedly "apolitical" or even "centrist" rhetoric.
>the language he uses definitely remind me of supposedly "apolitical" or even "centrist" rhetoric.
Is that a condemnation, or are you being sarcastic? Isn't that what projects and business should default to?
What's the controversy you are referring to?
What are you talking about? You’re referring to Andreas Kling, right? All I’m finding is he used to work at Nokia, then on WebKit at Apple, then founded SerenityOS, and now works on Ladybird full time. He says he was a drug addict, but is now many years clean, surely that’s not what you’re taking issue with?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45371016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45371216
Wait, what? What did he do?
In 2021 he once rejected a PR from a new contributer, which was to change the documentation from using the word "he" to "they".
Was it an actual new contributor or a drive by PR by someone who has no interest in contributing anything but their ideology?
Because there is nothing wrong in protecting your project from ideologues who do a drive by PR just to further their cause.
There is nothing wrong in preventing your project from being used as an vehicle for someone else's ideology.
LOL. The horror!
I agree with you here. I want a viable non-Chromium browser.
But even if that existed, I also think a practical Chromium browser is important to have access to. I'm a developer and I use the web, so sometimes I just need Chromium. I think that will continue to be necessary for at least 10 years.
And I think the landscape of Chromium browsers is very bad. As a minimum, I want adblocking, low- or no-telemetry, timely security updates, no forced arbitration clause in its ToS, and support across platforms.
Right now, I think that makes Brave the best Chromium browser. That is not an accolade, I deeply dislike Brave, for dozens of reasons. It's just the best of a bad bunch. (But credit where it's due, I do very much like its "Shields" control.)
I only learned about Helium from this thread, but it checks almost all of my boxes. I was really excited to see a new browser that hits my checkboxes... But it's MacOS only :( Alas
> I agree with you here. I want a viable non-Chromium browser.
It doesn't look like you do.
Firefox has worked for me across 7 different employers in the last 15 years with no problems, and yet you haven't switched to it.
Actions speak louder than words. There is a viable alternative. You aren't using it.
You are making assumptions about me which are not correct. I am not using Firefox because it has bugs which made it stop working as web browser for me. I have had breaking problems with Firefox on every platform I've used it on.
On desktop (multiple Linuxes, Windows 7 and 10, and MacOS) I run into problems which I spend hours trying to fix, until I give up and go back to a Chromium browser. On iPadOS and iOS, it would crash when using arrowkeys to navigate URL history(or something like that, if I remember correctly. Been awhile). I had another issue with it on Android, the details of which I'd forgotten. I don't even use the sync features- these are just independent bugs.
Every time I tried to switch to Firefox, it's a time sink that ends with a broken install. I used Firefox as my primary browser in the early 00s through to ~2010. I tried to switch back every few years between 2017 and 2023.
The recent bad new changes (forced built-in advertising, new worse ToS, forced AI stuff) make me uninterested in spending more time on Firefox. I'm happy it works for you, but we are not the same person, and Firefox is entirely nonviable for me.
> On desktop (multiple Linuxes, Windows 7 and 10, and MacOS) I run into problems which I spend hours trying to fix, until I give up and go back to a Chromium browser. On iPadOS and iOS, it would crash when using arrowkeys to navigate URL history(or something like that, if I remember correctly. Been awhile). I had another issue with it on Android, the details of which I'd forgotten. I don't even use the sync features- these are just independent bugs.
And yet I, and a few hundreds of thousands of others, have used it on all of those platforms. Even at FAANGs.
If it's only breaking for you, and you alone, you can see why the rest of us are skeptical that it really is that broken.
Welcome to the HN/Social Media/Internet/Humanity! If someone has special needs that can't be fulfilled by X, they will make known about their experience and tirelessly defend against why X isn't usable for them, often with a list of reasons (I personally have a txt file full of reasons not to use X, Y, Z). It definitely doesn't mean everyone is that way, they are simply sharing their personal views on why they can't/won't use X. Arguing about this seems generally futile, as their point must be made and their opinion will probably not change regardless of anything you say.
I myself am guilty of this in the past, and I hope GP does not take offense at my writing this, as I don't intend to offend. I think it's just a feature/bug of humanity... some underlying mechanism that can possibly only be explained with psychology of lizard brains or something ;)
> If it's only breaking for you, and you alone, you can see why the rest of us are skeptical that it really is that broken.
There are several problems here.
Before anything, I want to note that we don't have to fight, we aren't enemies. We're on the same ideological side, even. This tastes like an angry and bitter internet argument. Do you taste it too?
We're just two people talking about web browsers. We don't need acrimony for each other. My bitterness is for the browser ecosystem. I am very sad about the browser ecosystem.
On that note, who are you speaking for, other than yourself, when you talk about "the rest of us"?
You are only you, and I am only me. The difference here is that you have good experiences with Firefox, and I have had bad experiences with Firefox.
Second, your skepticism is part of the problem with Firefox. In trying to find support for these issues, I mostly found people who did not believe me (or that I'm using it wrong, etc.)
The way you engage with people is common in the Firefox community, which is deleterious to the goal of having more people use Firefox. I think it's actually really important that we have a good non-Chromium non-corporate browser which people want to use, and Firefox is still the most promising one in the running.
Third, it's just incorrect to think I am alone in my issues. Some of these issues I could confirm were unfixed bugs, by finding them in the issue trackers. Others I could find with my issues in threads on Reddit, for example. Others are in this same thread we're commenting on. You can see people here talking about issues with Firefox, or needing to "Frankenstein" their install to get it to a usable state (a relatable experience for me, except I couldn't get it back into a usable state. I never want to touch user.js again.) My experience is lonely, but I am not the only person with my experience.
There is also the 94% to 98% of people on the internet who do not use Firefox. Some of those must be because they wanted to use Firefox, but had a breaking issue and went to Chrome.
People use software with bugs all the time, and Chromium and Safari's dominance is mostly because of years of costly domination from Apple and especially Google. But part of it is also things simply not working in Firefox. (Which is, also, partially due to Google expanding on Microsoft's IE-era standards playbook).
Finally, what is your position exactly? That Firefox can't possibly have the bugs I had? Or that I am lying about wanting a viable non-Chromium browser? I think you might be responding with a knee-jerk defense of Firefox, and you might assume I'm arguing in bad faith, which is fair, given this is the "Forum for Bad Faith Arguments About Computers with Some Amount of Financially-Motivated Arguments".
But I am ideologically motivated to be on Firefox's side. It's the largest browser engine not owned by a FAANG. Ideological motivation is the reason why I tried to use Firefox several times over several years, and why I spend time talking on the internet with strangers about web browsers.
Okay, let's get back to your original assertion, that FF isn't viable.
It clearly is, with hundreds of thousands of daily users. Maybe it's broken on some specific sites[1]; can you recall which sites those were?
Because it works, right now, on all the mainstream and popular sites, including every banking site I use it on, every shopping site, every wordpress site, every forum, subreddit, LLM/webchat, search engine, LoB and social networking site I used it on over the last decade and a half.
Actions speak louder than words - use FF, and then when you get to a site it doesn't work on, start Chromium, instead of complaining about the hours trying to fix it.
=============
[1] Note I am not saying that it is broken for you, I am saying that it is broken for specific sites.
It's not specific sites. See my previous comments about crashes, and about captchas. Like you said, when I use Firefox, I get to a site that doesn't work and then I start Chromium. I'm not going to use Firefox again, that's just silly.
I'm going to generally side with with ops "bitterness" here.
Sure, I don't want bad blood -- but like, I get why their tone is this way; this ain't just McDonalds vs Burger King.
Op is correctly frustrated at the "consumer is always right" mindset folks like you show. This is more important than consumer choice and (as someone who uses Firefox as a daily driver and will just bounce to Chromium as needed) "fixing a billion little bugs that you see" isn't as near as important as promoting the ideology more?
But the bugs made the browser not work for me, and I spent hours on them with no progress. The big thing are crashes, and webpages not working (usually in captcha and auth).
I read you two's conversation and didn't get an adversarial tone at any point. It sounds like you two have a difference of opinion, and are just kind of dug in on your "Apples" and "Oranges," quite honestly.
What is your definition of “viable”? Plenty of people own iPhones, which is locked down to webkit.
Similarly, firefox is fine. I switch between it chromium and safari for dev work, and (unless you go out of your way to find a counterexample) they’re completely interchangeable in terms of compatibility and real-world performance.
Firefox runs fine on android, so there’s not even a platform where chrome is the only choice (other than chromebooks).
I know this is not typical, but I just run into breaking bugs on Firefox on every platform which prevent me from using Firefox (except Intel MacOS, which I have not used, and Windows, which I haven't used in a few years.)
For Safari, the problem for most platforms is that it doesn't run on most platforms. It doesn't really count to me if I can't use it on my computers. (Caveat that there are non-Safari webkit browsers, but they're not very good.)
I like Arc browser by The Browser Company. As far as I understand it, it's made by a bunch of jaded ex-google employees, so the Google stuff is also stripped-out. The features are next level, and I feel it's a very forward-thinking browser. Maybe it will work for you
Arc was famously not built by ex-Chrome people but rather a bunch of opinionated UX folks. It amounted to what I can best describe as a glorified "skin" for Chromium and nothing innovative under the hood.
They realized they couldn't make any money with that, so they abandoned it and started Dia which was "AI". Again, they had no capability nor plan to make any solid product, was just sold to Atlassian
Actually, they really knew how to hype up their product. And their marketing videos were top notch. Innovation I suppose.
That’s dead: https://browsercompany.substack.com/p/letter-to-arc-members-...
I didn’t know either until a few weeks ago.
its not MacOS only. just installed on windows
Oh you are right! I guess the site must be inferring User Agent and just presenting one download link. It looks like they have Linux, MacOS, and Windows builds.
Literally the first thing I looked for...(if it is based on chromium).
When can we get a new kind of browser that doesn't use html/css/js...? Build one from scratch with a common design language (but modifiable by the user)
So you mean a browser that can't load any existing pages?
This is a gargantuan task, I can’t even articulate how much work this would be.
Depends on your goals but I think a minimal and useful browser with completely new APIs wouldn't be so hard to do if you leverage the huge amount of existing open source libraries. The hardest part would be getting people to actually use it.
Make it markdown based. It'll be like the web once was... Just documents linking to other documents, with images and videos. We just pretend web 2.0 never happened. Everybody can write markdown so we don't even need web2.0.
You might wanna look into Gopher and Gemini protocols, as they seem to be pretty much exactly that
Gemini is probably not exactly what GP wished for, but it has something resembling a critical mass of users and while I do not think the text format (gemtext, i.e. gmi) is perfect I find it good enough for what it does.
I even use gemtext now and then offline just as an even simpler markdown. Since it has so few features it is trivial to convert gmi to markdown or to any other format without losing anything. It works as a lowest common markup language for when something that minimal is enough.
Can we please not switch to a format which is simultaneously more complex and less capable than HTML?
1991? (gopher)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol)
2019? (gemini)
https://geminiprotocol.net
That would be a monumental task probably requiring tens of millions to be honest
Tens of millions? That'd be just the palm-greasing before you are allowed to begin!
I think they meant tens of millions of people.
You mean tens of millions of consumers?
That would actually make sense. But it would also point at the larger problem (the one we're not actually looking into because we're too busy with solving the unsolvable a.k.a. with C++).
It goes like this: are "we" building a browser for it to be reckoned with, or are "we" building a browser in order to let people browse webpages?
Because only one of these two requires collecting tens of million of... pretty much anything where ten million is a large number I guess? Yet people conflate the two, thinking the same approach holds for both goals, so let's put it sideways:
Which exact problem does a new browser (engine) solve, besides people saying there are too few browsers? What's the purpose of having this problem, its underlying nature? Can we solve it a way that doesn't require reimplementing the last 30 years of computing history? Can we even go look for such a way or will someone show up to stop us?
If the goal is to become a browser vendor, obviously there's no workaround to building a browser (or rebadging one lol); if the goal is not that or not only that, anyone building a browser is gonna have to expound a little more on what exactly they're trying to achieve. That's complicated by how the vast difference between a new browser engine and, say, a new model of TV set, can't really be expressed in beancounts.
Not tens of millions of lines of code?
So many choices!
Tens of millions of dollars, lines of code and probably people.
Tens of millions all around
Tens of millions bytes of bandwidth, tens of millions words of RAM (let's be generous and make em 64-bit), tens of millions clock cycles...
Security isn't just about your data. It's about the security of an open web. Having one rendering engine that controls everything is not secure.
While I agree that monopolies suck, I _absolutely hate_ having to waste my time adjusting styles and writing workaround code just to make everything look and work consistently in a multitude of browsers. This is one of the reasons — among a hundred others — that I grew to somewhat hate front-end, doubly so with the rise of mobile devices. And the more rendering engines we have, the more developers will have to fight frustrating battles with inconsistencies and quirks.
Indeed front-end development in software can be painful. Much of the cruft can be attributed to computing's byzantine history of incremental experimentation. You might take some comfort in knowing that the biological analogue is vastly more complicated: the transformation of genotype to phenotype. Trying to figure out the evolutionary pressures and various mutational accidents that drove particular biological changes feels way harder than trying to figure out WTF Project X was thinking when they decided to pivot from being a social network for dog walkers to a low-latency query planner for a database no one has heard of.
“Resilience” conveys your meaning better than “security”, and it calls to mind more relevant interventions.
It's actually the beauty of open source that we can align on a few primitives that are reusable in several different contexts to build radically different product experiences and world views. If you think of the phylogenetic tree of software this is exactly what you want to happen.
A browser being based on Chromium has nothing to do with how private it is. Yes you are furthering an internet monopoly by using chromium. But there is noncorrelation between being based of Chromium and Privacy.
Yes it has, unless they plan to do significant changes to how the relevant JS APIs function, which is usually prohibitively expensive to maintain. Standard Chromium allows websites to fetch a lot of fingerprintable bits, this is even true for Brave. Tracking protection on Chromium is a joke.
Firefox on the other hand is better in this respect and even has a setting explicitly for resisting fingerprinting.
Last time I checked, Brave was actually the best-in-class for resisting fingerprinting.
Calling Brave "best-in-class for resisting fingerprinting" is quite bold. Especially when it's so easily disproven.
Try some good fingerprint testing sites on Brave and see what comes up (those results alone should chock you). Then try the same sites on Firefox with privacy.resistFingerprinting=true. Unless some truly revolutionary initiatives have been taken at Brave since last I checked, you will see Firefox do A LOT better than Brave.
Brave suck at resisting fingerprinting. It may be better than other Chromium-based browsers, but it's still pathetic.
How is firefox legitimate competition when they are basically financed by Google?
You need to look at history. In early 90s why did Microsoft invest in apple when it is its competitors. Investment doesn't mean they are medling into mozilla business. For companies like google (present) or Microsoft in 90's. It is better to have a crippled competitor than no competitor. No competitor attracts government agencies for monopoly which is worse.
In the 1990s Microsoft “invested” in Apple because Steve Jobs allowed them to save face by giving them the option to settle their part of Apple v San Francisco Canyon Co by calling part of it—$150 M—a stock purchase that only lasted a few years. I do not know how much the total cash settlement from Microsoft was, but industry rumors went up to $1B.
The first time yes, the last time, there would be no Apple Silicon to talk about today.
Maybe it's also the other way around: if Firefox was legitimate competition, Google wouldn't "fund" them (quotes because really, google is also just buying user traffic with their investment).
Is Google actively sabotaging Mozilla or is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome (and Chromiumy browsers) beyond ideologist users?
I say it's the latter. Google's money doesn't actually negatively impact Firefox's competitiveness.
I dont see how the competitiveness argument can still stand. I've been using both browsers for the better part of two decades now and chrome/chromium never was the better product. Sure it had slightly better devtools for a while but nowadays it is very difficult to argue either way. Performance was rubbish on both ends for years in a row, right now both seem to do fine. Firefox has sync, a significantly better product than whatever google comes up with every two years. So yeah, I think Mozilla has a good enough product to challenge chrome. What they don't have is comparable traffic to their site.
Oh and of course focus. Mozilla has lacked focus for almost a decade now with all the random products and initiatives they launch.
As someone who almost compulsively changes browsers every so often with the mistaken belief that "there's gotta be something better" and has swung by Firefox on multiple occasions, it has never offered me any compelling reason to stick with it beyond not being Chrome.
Zen came close, but also didn't stick.
Containers seemed nice at first but my personal usage of them devolved into an over abundance of containers to isolate everything from one another (my fault, though).
On the other hand, I've had various small nits here and there that always eventually push me back towards a chromium browser.
But hey, I'm a believer in not holding on to my decisions so long that they become assumptions, so off I go to install Firefox and give it a 4th whirl since 2010.
Try Tree Style Tabs.
That's gotten me married to Firefox. The hierarchical vertical tab management makes research and general web browsing far more efficient and productive. It also helps me know which tabs I can close when I'm done.
I did. TBH, it did not do much for me, but I'm pretty sure the problem is me.
I've tried all kinds of tab management things (they're usually a motivation for trying a new browser that supposedly offers a better way) and nothing ever sticks out for me.
Unfortunely most people have decided it isn't worthwhile to buy software, including those whose job depends on selling software.
Are you saying that, because people don't want to buy browsers, the end result is we only get the ones that can be financed by companies that sell other things (which in this day and age is ads, with only a few exceptions)?
I'd agree. Although I'd also add: people don't want to sell software anymore, they want to sell subscriptions, and I personally do not have much desire to pay $10/month for a browser (and then get pitched more services to buy on top, no doubt).
Because unfortunelly subscriptions is the only way to make people pay that would otherwise pirate, it is the modern version of using hardware keys.
The subscription thing is key, although maybe a generational thing. I would happily pay a flat $60-100 for each major version upgrade I choose to adopt, but I won't just give them a direct monthly tap into my bank account.
So do you donate that amount every major release?
Last I checked, you can't donate to fund firefox development.
You can donate to Mozilla, who then go on to spend their money on things other than firefox development. Or development in general.
I think asking people if they're one of a small of handful people donating into the void to a is a straw man.
It's purely a theoretical, since nobody has offered me a choice of that model - either I'm a source of ad revenue whether I want to be or not (Chrome, FireFox, Safari), or I'm in a captive ecosystem where I'm already paying a premium (Safari, Chrome for android)
> is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome
Mozilla had a browser that had huge market share and was growing, and actively destroyed it for the sake of Chrome, at the same time as they became a financial dependent of google.
> google is also just buying user traffic with their investment
Google is not buying user traffic from a browser with a 3% share and falling. Google is probably responsible for 2-300% of firefox's profits, because if they stopped paying them off, they'd have to close up shop in 6 months. Everything else they do is a failure, and if it looks like it has a chance of being successful, like Servo and Rust*, they get rid of it.
They're not going to give them money to them with a check with "Bribe to fail continually, and to never give users a feature that they would leave Chrome for ever again" written on it. Money is fungible. If they couldn't bribe them like this, they'd create an "Extensions Interop Consortium," let Mozilla host it, and fund it to the tune of a half-billion dollars. Let Google prove this "partnership" is profitable, this default search engine placement on the 3% browser used exclusively by people who are experts, know how to change their defaults, and hate google. It doesn't pass the stupid test.
But actually, they don't have to prove anything because even though they're officially a monopoly, one of the worst of the many horrible, horrible Obama judges has now affirmed that there will be no remedy, because a remedy might affect their business. He then immediately went on tour, telling audiences how the government is bullying tech companies.
[*] And maybe firefoxOS, I accidentally had one as my daily phone for a year, and it worked fine. I didn't love it and I didn't even like the idea of it, but it certainly worked.
I'm not saying Google's funding of Mozilla isn't entirely self serving. I think it is.
I just don't think Google's funding of Mozilla is what's actually holding Mozilla back.
> Is Google actively sabotaging Mozilla
Oh, Google did sabotage Mozilla: https://archive.is/2019.04.15-165942/https://twitter.com/joh...
Because it's the only other browser engine that's currently available in the market.
Indeed.
It is important to try to avoid letting perfection be the enemy of good.
Firefox is at least something that is distinct from WebKit or Chromium (which is itself based on a fork of WebKit). That's good.
It's not perfect, in part because deals with Google pay for most of it, but it is still good despite its imperfect status.
Which sucks because it's not exactly fantastic as a competitor. There's still very, very noticeable performance differences and render speed/pattern differences that after you've been using a chromium based browser for a long time give firefox a feeling of being slow (it's not, it is absolutely just a perception thing, but it's enough to put you off using it)
Mozilla is fine taking money from Google, because it keeps "competition" alive otherwise Google would face antitrust lawsuits for running a monopoly.
Isn’t Safari 30% of browser share in the US?
Only due to iOS, which isn't necessarily enough to stave off monopoly complaints across other platforms
What's your point? Even 3 players is too few.
Allow me to rephrase my earlier choice
All three choices suck. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But there's only one option on here that isn't trying to royally fuck everyone over and actually cares about the very service we're arguing over.So what... we're going to let the internet get screwed because a bunch of dudes making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year can't toss some beer money over to the little guy?
You paint this as a hopeless picture, but seriously, have you considered donating? Every time I see these types of threads I see comments like
Seriously, are we all that greedy and myopic? They're a non-profit. You know tons of companies, such as Google and every other big tech company, have some donation matching system. Google pays the Mozilla Foundation about half a billion a year to make Google the default search engine. How is the fact that they are throwing such massive amounts of money not a concerning thing? Yet FF has enough users that we could give them an extra 40% revenue if we tossed them $5 PER YEAR. That's it.Do you really think your browser provides to you less value than your Netflix (160%/360%/500% more expensive) or Spotify (240% more expensive) account? Seriously? If literally 30% of FF users gave to Mozilla what they are willing to give to Spotify, then the problem is solved. Or 15% of users did it through their company's matching program. If instead of discouraging people, you got more people to convert then the percentage of necessary contributors decreases!
It's even tax fucking deductible so it isn't even that <$5/yr...
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45369141
My problem with donating to Mozilla is the donation goes into a pocket of their greedy CEO and only a small fraction to those who do the browser development. And that’s mostly why I donate to Ladybird.
Well said. Though I use Firefox, I have not donated after a Mozilla CEO quadrupled CEO pay after taking the helm.
You can't donate to Firefox. You can donate to Mozilla, but that money doesn't go to Firefox.
I recently purchased Firefox relay because I thought it was a nifty service to start using to prevent spam and preserve my privacy, but also a driving factor in my purchase was giving money to Mozilla. I didn't really look into it beyond that internal thought process. Your comment made me wonder, are things so segmented at Mozilla that supporting something like relay doesn't actually help Firefox in general?
Long story short, you made the right choice. You can't purchase anything from a non-profit and you can't donate anything to a corporation.
If you purchase a product from them, it goes to Mozilla Corporation which makes all the products[0], if you donate money to Mozilla, it goes to the foundation.
[0] Minus Thunderbird, Thunderbird is developed by a separate foundation. Both the "Thunderbird foundation" (not actually called that) and Mozilla Corporation are 100% owned by the Mozilla Foundation.
I’m a Mozilla employee who works on Firefox, so I’ll try to answer this to the best of my knowledge but as a disclaimer I can’t guarantee I’m 100% correct
Paying for relay will give money to Mozilla Corporation, the same pot the google money goes into, which will predominantly pay for Firefox development but also other products. The corporation’s profits also fund the non-profit Foundation’s activities.
People often raise this argument regarding donating to the Foundation, as that money will be spent by the foundation, therefore not on Firefox. But a dollar raised by the foundation is a dollar less the corporation has to give the foundation, leaving it with more money to spend on Firefox and other things.
You can also donate directly to “MZLA” which makes thunderbird, and that money will be spent on thunderbird.
The problem many people have with donating to the Mozilla Foundation us them squandering enormous amounts of it. Mostly on things nobody asked for and executive pay.
Personally, I don’t feel like firing Firefox devs and starting controversial and expensive diversity campaigns while raising executive pay when Firefox is losing market share every year is being a great steward.
People have a lot of weird excuses for disliking Mozilla. There are definitely legitimate ones, but the point really is "what's the alternative"? Are the faults of Mozilla really so much worse that we'll turn to Google instead? Honestly, that seems silly to me.
Can we just for once not blindly hate something for not being perfect and consequently strengthening an even worse option?
> hate something for not being perfect
Could you, and everybody, stop saying this for any reason about any subject? Go through this thread, pick out all of the people saying that they hate Mozilla for "not being perfect." Argue with them.
> the point really is "what's the alternative"?
Yes, that is the point. If there were an alternative people wouldn't complain, they would just leave. But Google is paying Mozilla (and Apple by the way) massive amounts of money not to compete. Mozilla is just very-ungoogled-chromium. It is not an alternative to google, it is one of the alternatives that google offers. I use it because I don't want to leave the internet altogether. It is a pain in the ass that involves a lot of work to bring it up to 70% of the functionality and UI it had 20 years ago.
> so much worse that we'll turn to Google instead
Did you know that ~85% of Mozilla Corp's revenue comes from Google?
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45369826
So what remains from your argument? It's been shown that Mozilla Corporation is for-profit, donations to the Mozilla Foundation do not go into the pot that pays for Firefox development, and Mozilla Corporation is 85% funded by Google.
So not independent of Google and not a non-profit.
To be clear: I use Firefox, mainly because uBlock origin is blocked on Chrome.
> WebKit: A closed source browser
You seem to be confusing Safari (a closed source Apple product), and WebKit (an open source browser engine used by multiple browsers).
You beat me to this comment. Webkit is not an apple only thing
WebKit has always been open source.
https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit
Orion as well (by the Kagi people), not available on linux yet but there is a roadmap: web-kit based.
I liked it when I used macOS but now I work primarily in a windows/fedora environment.
I wish they’d open source their work.
(Sent from orion on ios, with firefox’s ublock origin, etc enabled)
> Even with un-googled Chromium I do not think these statements are self-consistent. We need browsers that do not allow Google to control the ecosystem. We need legitimate competition.
If you fork Chromium, Google doesn't control the ecosystem, it controls a large part of it. But you're able to build on top of that ecosystem. So you can have the best of both worlds, all the extensions and ecosystem from Chrome but with more. That is called true competition.
I also suspect Brave would take offense to your claim you can't have privacy on a Chromium fork.
While I appreciate your perspective, the widespread adoption of Google Chrome has presented challenges. The implementation of Manifest V3 demonstrates Google's significant influence over extension developers, requiring adherence to increasingly restrictive APIs or facing limited visibility within less popular browsers.
Extension developers are not forced to adhere to anything from Google to build compatible extensions that work on forks such as Brave. If they want to be in the Google ecosystem, sure, but as I pointed out, you can build your own ecosystem on top of it.
If you build on top of it, you're not forced and unable to extend the ecosystem.
Naive question — why is everyone building chromium-based browsers as opposed to using Gecko? Is it difficult to integrate?
Most of these chromium-based browsers are intended to address privacy concerns. Firefox (mostly) respects your privacy.
There are also sometimes compatibility issues with Firefox because web developers only test on chromium and webkit. Anyone opinionated enough to put up with that is just going to use Firefox.
>intended to address privacy concerns
Primarily probably yes, but I think for example Brave or Arc Browser teams also had ideas for their own browser features instead of "just" making a more degoogled Chromium. Helium as well, I suppose, otherwise what's the point?
That's my (admittedly extremely limited) understanding. The Mozilla/Firefox people de-prioritized making Gecko a separate linkable library years ago, and it's no longer a straightforward thing to do. Which is a real bummer.
There are many Gecko browsers. Floorp, Waterfox are running on my machine for example.
For me, the fact that a browser is based on Chromium is a deal breaker when compared to CPU/RAM usage of Safari on Mac OS. When I open the some JS heavy tabs like Notion, AIstudio.google.com, email, the difference is huge.
Orion is the only alternative, because as you said, it's built on WebKit, but I had trouble it working with extensions that I need for my work.
Safari should be on Windows. I don't care what CSS standards it has, it needs to give Chrome and Firefox some competition
It used to be there, 2007-2012 https://archive.org/details/safari-5.1.7-windows
I found an announcement in Italian on Apple website. It's from June 2007 https://www.apple.com/it/newsroom/2007/06/11Apple-Introduces...
The original plan with the iPhone was to have web apps, not native apps. That's why they needed to run the rendering engine of the iPhone on Windows. Then they went native and Mac only with the dev environment.
I don't think that Apple would earn one single dollar by porting Safari to Windows again.
You used to be able to get Epiphany preview on Windows, for quite a long time after you could get Safari on Windows. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore, though.
Firefox gets most of its funding from Google. They are Google's antitrust lawsuit insurance.
Which is unfortunate, or fortunate, depending on how you look at the situation.
They do, whilst they have a minor user base. If they become the majority they'll lose funding.
So from Mozilla's point of view, they must be continually worse alternative. They'd shoot themselves in the foot if they looked like the better alternative.
I like zen for this, if you like a pretty, no-nonsense browser. If you like a few more features and a web panel and some GUI tweakery floorp is good.
You say this like chromium is not the best browser experience we have. There used to be a point where everyone had to build websites for 5 different web engines, each of which had their own quirks. Now that we just build for one it's so much easier, and while chromium still does a great job I'm not sure why we'd want to create another, likely worse, engine and browser.
I use FF... but they are financially tied to Google and even technically they are waiting on Google to implement JPEG-XL instead of moving forward themselves. Why not do some work/spend some money to borrow Safari's implementation or audit and augment a third party library? Instead of waiting on Google... esp on this matter where you could be waiting for a long time.
The thing is, Gecko is really insecure when compared to Chromium. Its sandboxing is asinine. Additionally, due to lack of WebView implementation, on mobile you have to use Chromium either way, leaving you with two completely separate attack surfaces.
Quoting GrapheneOS developers[1]:
> Avoid Gecko-based browsers like Firefox as they're currently much more vulnerable to exploitation and inherently add a huge amount of attack surface. Gecko doesn't have a WebView implementation (GeckoView is not a WebView implementation), so it has to be used alongside the Chromium-based WebView rather than instead of Chromium, which means having the remote attack surface of two separate browser engines instead of only one. Firefox / Gecko also bypass or cripple a fair bit of the upstream and GrapheneOS hardening work for apps. Worst of all, Firefox does not have internal sandboxing on Android. This is despite the fact that Chromium semantic sandbox layer on Android is implemented via the OS isolatedProcess feature, which is a very easy to use boolean property for app service processes to provide strong isolation with only the ability to communicate with the app running them via the standard service API. Even in the desktop version, Firefox's sandbox is still substantially weaker (especially on Linux) and lacks full support for isolating sites from each other rather than only containing content as a whole. The sandbox has been gradually improving on the desktop but it isn't happening for their Android browser yet.
IronFox (an FF fork) developers[2]:
> While we do as much as possible to improve the situation, it should be noted that Firefox-based web browsers, including IronFox, have security deficiencies when compared to Chromium. This is especially notable on Android.
[1] https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing
[2] https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox/-/blob/dev/docs/Limit...
An in-depth examination of this topic and a plethora of other sources can also be found here: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.ht...
Zen is quite nice if you like something based on Firefox, but with a stronger UX focus!
The answer is to get rid of the web, JS, and HTTP. I’m working on it.
Okay, what's the plan?
Gemini protocol: https://geminiprotocol.net/. Harder to search up these days due to Google using the brand too.
Gemini is way too simplistic. You can’t even white math articles in it.
They do however have the right idea. Document sharing and applications are completely different things that require different architectures. I like their start with Gemini though I’d bring over non video images and CSS3, html5 tags that make html more intuitive. I’d just strip the browser way way down back basically to what it was with some enhancements and lessons learned. The application part is much more complex though I’m working on it and will share my research if when ready.
I’ll do a show HN if I can actually get it working. Best case scenario will mean not only goodbye to the browser but the app stores as well.
Gopher and Finger.
[flagged]
Palemoon still exists... https://www.palemoon.org/
Also it's worth mentioning that GNU does have their own flavor of Firefox, if that's your cup of tea
Reminds me of DuckDuckGo's "privacy" browser that is again just a Chrome/WebView wrapper.
Epiphany (WebKitGtk) on Linux, native Gtk-UI :)
I'm posting right now with it here.
Pass, sure, but vs what currently?
Helium does not have to be the destination. But it is a good step when Chromium is the standard (try using Safari and quickly websites seem uncharacteristically janky)
There's Palemoon's Goanna, also
Isn't Goanna unmaintainable and full of potential vulnerabilities?
Yet I pick a Chromium based browser because Firefox is awfully anti-user. I still can't load extensions that are not Mozilla-approved, a major deal breaker for me. Then there's the "news" (ragebait slop) on the new tab screen by default, almost like I'm using MS Edge, and also the many sponsored & "suggested" (read: sponsored) links by default in new tab and the address bar as well.
The only acceptable Gecko-based browser I know of right now is Zen, which is great but still in beta. And Tor & Mullvad Browser are good for private one-time sessions.
We need competition for a free and open internet, I fully agree. Mozilla is far from a decent champion for that cause. I'm far more excited at what Ladybird has to offer.
by "Mozilla approved" do you mean that it has to come from the official add-on store?
because in my experience, it doesn't--I've installed a couple of extensions manually by just dragging the .xpi into the window.
Extensions in Firefox are required to be signed by Mozilla. If you make your own build of an open-source extension, it will not load. The setting to disable this check only works in Developer Edition, ESR and Nightly builds.
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-on-signing-in-firef...
What‘s wrong with ESR? I would recommend using ESR anyway.
Installing the developer edition seems like the move.
Firefox nightly is pretty darn stable, though I'm not sure if there's any security issues with it. I use it for both mobile and desktop, and have for the past 5~10 years and haven't had any issues that weren't fixed by immediately downloading a fresh build (this happened twice) or were caused by me performing unsupported/insane actions (transferring browser profiles (indexeddb) on mobile via CLI commands using remote devtools).
I've got one buggy device, but I suspect corruption due to the error message and I'm more interested in saving the unsyncable data I've got on that profile than I am in trying to fix it by clearing data.
Installing one of those builds is a deal breaker?
Sponsor stuff that you can just turn off (Firefox) vs. Selling out your privacy directly (chromium with worse fingerprinting protection) and indirectly (Google browser monopoly).
I came here to leave this comment exactly. I stopped reading the page after "based on Chromium".
Thank you.
holy soy
[dead]
I love Chromium ! It's the fastest browser implementation out there, and the best to handle hundreds of tabs in the background. What if, everyone was going on a fork of ungoogled chromium, there would be interest into alternative browsers to Chrome and money invested there, and at some point making forks of Chromium separated from Google might make sense business wise. So, we can impact the future of browsers by using chromium based browsers
What makes me a bit uneasy about the project is that the website doesn't explain who is building it. For most open-source, I think that would be fine. But browsers auto-update, so their vendors essentially have the continued ability to run code on your machine. You want some confidence that they won't get owned and won't sell the access to bad actors down the line, so there is an element of personal trust.
All the website gives me is the name of a Wyoming LLC, Wyoming being one of the states you incorporate in if you don't want others to be able to find out who runs the company.
Granted, you can find out a bit more on Github, but in general, if you're building privacy- and security-critical tech... I think you ought to own it.
It really isn't hard to find. I went to the browser's github page and then the repo author.
https://github.com/imputnet
I now found who exactly manages this (and it turns out colbalt, too! awesome downloader)
https://github.com/wukko https://github.com/dumbmoron
You found the authors' screen names and some other things they've made.
That's not finding who they are. No one has signed their names, like their real names, to this. Who are they? Intelligence agents? For which country? There's no way to know.
But their chosen public pseudonym is "dumbmoron". Surely we can fully trust them!
> For which country?
At least one of the authors is Russian. They were giving away Helium stickers to “anyone who is in Moscow”, and not many non-Russians are traveling there nowadays.
I think that's wukko (either that or both authors are Russian)
> and it turns out colbalt, too!
And https://meow.camera
Oh..that's crazy. I just assumed it was the makers of Kagi search.
That's https://kagi.com/orion/
I’m using and loving Orion on my iPhone.
My daily driver on macOS now for almost a year. Very happy with it.
Well it is just one those element naming chrome fork. Kinda like:
https://iridiumbrowser.de/ But that one looks have not being updated in a while. But what is the point forking Chrome browser now days since manifest 3?
I switched back to firefox/librawolf for now.
Try zen browser its my favorite firefox fork with only a few extensions
I tried using Zen as I moved away from Arc, it really tries to be Arc but had a ton of issues at the time(6 months ago). Ranging from performance, different parts of UI crashing or behaving weirdly, to typos in English translations all over Settings. I settled on Brave for now because I won't give up uBlock Origin but I also didn't enjoy using Firefox long term for some reason. I honestly loved Arc, but I won't use product they won't work on anymore.
Brave is a good option too. I use brave for websites that are too junk to work in firefox. I have never used arc. I was coming from librewolf/floorp with sidebery. I really like the layout in zen, it hasnt shown the performance issues i sometimes saw in stock firefox and the vertical tab bar is good enough yo replace sidebery for me. Tge only annoyance ia how it sometomes weirdly display extensions in the truncated interface. Otger than that i am pretty happy.
For what it's worth: “All Chromium extensions are supported and work right away, by default, including all MV2 extensions. We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible.”
Whether that's worth much is of course another matter.
Do Helium, or any other browsers with intent to keep supporting MV2 extensions say what they intend to use as a repository to acquire them?
I don't think the chrome or microsoft extension websites even let you upload a MV2 extension anymore, and most chromium forks I've used rely entirely on the chrome web store.
FWIW, I think ublock is probably the most important mv2 and they've got a GitHub repo here that builds it automatically (not sure if the browser uses this, I just saw it and remembered this comment)
https://github.com/imputnet/ublock-origin-crx
My thoughts exactly. I read on their website that they're a two person team who care about privacy. But how do they finance their work on these tools? Are they still figuring it out? Do they have a sustainable business model?
Who is paying for it?
Agreed, and my concern is not a "NSA is monitoring my activity" but more along the lines of whether they have enough funding to staff security research and response for this browser.
Exactly my concern as well
I have felt like a perennial browser refugee for a while. For about 20 years now (since OG Firefox was at peak and Chrome was not yet launched), every new browser promises the same things, gets popular enough, then does a full or partial 180.
While I like the pitch of this browser, I find it a little difficult to take it at the face value, especially given there is no info on the founders, or whether it is run as a company or a non-profit etc.
Perhaps someone in this thread could answer: which company/org structure provides best guarantees against gradual, slow, multi-year rot that seems to take over everything?
I would happily pay a small monthly subscription fee for a browser if it has strong legally protected privacy guarantees.
I feel the same. For now, I've made peace with having to switch to "whatever is the latest maintained fork with privacy defaults" every 6 months. Hopefully Ladybird becomes a usable browser sometime soon.
> which company/org structure provides best guarantees against gradual, slow, multi-year rot that seems to take over everything?
German e.V. [1]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(German...
The hard answer is the project cannot attract the good engineers anymore because it eventually stops being a growth project. Without being a growth project, you don't get investment into what you want to do anymore and there is less potential growth in your career and income.
Browsers are always going to be "as-is, best effort" . No one, not even google is going to stick out their neck and protect your privacy, that's up to you, and especially not "legally" as that has aspects of easily being sued when privacy/money is involved. Certainly not for a "small monthly fee". Best you're going to get is open source and security community scrutiny of said open source code
> which company/org structure provides best guarantees against gradual, slow, multi-year rot that seems to take over everything?
I don't think any such guarantees exist, unfortunately.
You can look into Ulaa browser by Zoho. It fits your description.
That's wild. I've been a Zoho customer for some time, and I've never heard anything about that.
In my opinion that's Ladybird at the moment.
It's hard to predict what future generations of developers are doing, but right now Ladybird seems to have the right values embedded into their nonprofit structure.
All the other browser projects have to be enshittified eventually, and therefore have to fulfill other interests than their users' interests to get there.
For what it's worth, I like Orion - built by the same team that built the Kagi search engine. It's a shit browser for developers (inspect panel crashes half the time and other bugs), but I trust it way more than Chrome or even Safari. For development tasks - if I need to, I simply switch to Firefox.
it’s made by the same person who made cobalt.tools
That makes it a lot more credible in my books, still not sure about a chromium browser but it takes it from a hard to a soft pass
This makes !cobalt appearing as an example on the /bangs page make more sense.
Can someone explain to me why most browser forks are based on Chromium? If the goal is to make a privacy focused browser which is independent of Google, isn't it then a bit counterproductive to put all your eggs in a basket which only exists due to the goodwill of your main competitor? Why not webkit or Gecko? There might be a good argument for it, but as a person concerned with privacy and the future freedom of the internet, who is supposedly the target user for a browser like this, I would expect the justification to depend on Google code to be front and center on the page.
WebKit is easy but has terrible compatibility because the fruit company makes money from native apps. They do the bare minimum to keep Safari functional so that people keep buying iPhones.
Gecko has an uncertain future and is perpetually at risk of dying.
It's at least possible to switch from Chromium to WebKit if necessary so the risks of building off of Chromium are not that big.
Gecko is too big to die. Even with Firefox’s market share being a shadow of its former self, it’s still used by millions.
The real problems with Gecko is just that it’s harder to fork and has less compatibility with the web (that last part is largely just due to Chromium being the de facto standard so fewer people test their sites against Firefox).
> The real problems with Gecko is just that it’s harder to fork
That goes contrary to my experience. I'm a maintainer of a Firefox fork (with rather extensive changes to a lot of the internals), and it is pretty manageable to maintain. We manage to keep it roughly up to date and add new features without financial backing or folks working full-time on it.
If all you do is change the branding and apply some superficial stuff, Chromium might be doable, but that is hardly a new browser. Everybody who forked Chromium from the folks I know (mostly research/security testing people) gave up due to the constant churn.
For this reason, from my experience, Firefox forks are much easier to maintain once you start applying changes to internal things. Firefox is changing at a slower pace, making keeping up to date much more manageable, but that also has its drawbacks, as it does not support every crazy feature Google pushes out, e.g., WebUSB. But, for example, folks I know maintained a v8 fork that was shelved as the introduction of Torque (which has spotty public documentation, to be very kind) means it is a complete rewrite.
I think you're conflating the Engine, Gecko, with the browser, Firefox. The Browser, Firefox, is easy to fork, judging by the multitudes of soft forks a la Libre Wolf, Zen, etc...
The Engine, Gecko, however, is hard to fork since it's tightly coupled to the browser itself.
I also think that when the parent mentioned "forking Gecko", it might be in the sense of extracting the engine and putting a new browser on top of it, just like other Webkit based browsers e.g. Orion and Gnome Web.
That's fair but most of these browsers simply fork chromium and make their changes there instead of genuinely building something new off of blink.
Thats interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Why do you think that very few projects adopt Gecko then?
I'm somewhat uncertain personally about the future of Mozilla myself, as well as compatibility issues and a lack of mindshare.
Also, I feel working with the Chromium codebase is easier if you only apply superficial changes, e.g., the linked browser. The patch files are all very simple, so the fact that Chrome is generally less crufty (Mozilla is working on cleaning up a lot of ancient stuff, which causes us a lot of pain but is probably great in the long term), simply due to being newer, might make it easier to get started. Although I always felt the most significant hurdle (if you know C++ and JavaScript sufficiently well to patch a Browser) is getting the stuff to build, Mozilla is doing reasonably well on that front. Building Firefox always felt less annoying than building Chromium.
How those patch files work? I was trying to read the Helium codebase but is only full of .patch files.
Rather the fruit company doesn't want to implement ChromeOS Platform APIs that never made it into Web standards.
Couple main reasons: 1) BSD license vs a CopyLeft license. Edge, Opera etc don't want to push their changes back up. 2) Compatibility and performance is why Brave switched from Gecko to Chromium. 75% of the marketshare is chromium based browsers so sites will more than likely work with chromium browsers.
I don't why webkit is more popular. Maybe because it(Apple) is slow to adopt standards.
> Maybe because it(Apple) is slow to adopt standards
I think this is an interesting bit of propaganda - they are historically not all that slow to adopt actual standards.
What they often are is unwilling to adopt Google's pre-standardisation extensions (things like WebUSB, which have never been adopted as standards).
WebGPL, WebRTC, Gamepad API, WebASM etc Years behind Gecko and Chromium. Don't get me started on codec support with Safari. Webkit is the new IE.
WebGPU not yet a W3C standard (it's at the previous step, as a "candidate recommendation"). Apple's WebGPU implementation went live before Firefox's implementation.
WebRTC went live in Safari the same year that the non-draft version went live in Chrome (Chrome supported the pre-standard webkit-prefixed version for some years before).
Similarly, Safari added support for WASM the same year that WASM was standardised (once again, Chrome supported a pre-standard version ahead of standardisation).
Yea the funny thing is that the real lie is that Safari is behind, that hasn’t been true for many years now.
The further irony is calling it the “new IE” when in fact it’s Chrome that is far more similar to the IE of old, at least in terms of the dirty tricks - dominant market share, uses it to push non-standards, stuffs in user hostile features to the brim, and spies on you incessantly. The only difference is it’s not terrible at performance.
> I don't why webkit is more popular.
Because Safari comes pre-installed on billions of devices?
My guess is just that a lot of people really like Chrome and wish they could have that without the privacy concerns. I mean honestly I'm the same, I'm just seemingly more cynical as to whether that's possible.
That plus the fact that using a chrome based browser effectively hands over a bit more control of the web to chrome. If I don't like the privacy issues with chrome, it seems like a bad idea to hand (more) control of web standards over to the company that makes it, directly or indirectly.
Everyone mentions compatibility and performance as the main reasons, but this still doesn't make any sense to me. If I switch to a browser which has a stated goal of protecting my privacy and protecting the freedom of the web, then performance and web site compatibility is much further down my list of priorities.
Even if you have personal priorities for privacy, surely you can understand that many user's first expectation for a web browser is for websites to work correctly.
We've kind of lost the plot if we get too far away from the core notion that a web browser is for correctly and completely rendering websites. The user population don't use web browsers to hide, they use it to look at the internet and do internet work. If a browser has any problems doing this, it not going to be relevant.
I'd agree but performance and compatibility bubbles up to top concern pretty quickly when you use something nearly constantly (which I'd say is applicable for a browser).
I believe that Gecko is notoriously hard to maintain and integrate into other software. It's not something I've attempted myself so take it for what it is. It was one of the issues Servo was suppose to address.
There is a few browsers based on WebKit, so that seems doable.
Even in 2025 you still get the most compatibility with [insert-website-here] with Chromium
Sure but I only use Firefox (no other browser installed (except Edge on Windows)) and I don’t have any issues; so some none-trivial portion of the web doesn’t require Chrom(ium) specific behaviour.
Google websites intentionally degrade performance if you browse from Firefox. Facebook Messenger's E2E only works on chromium browsers. There are many websites that show popups to use chromium for the best experience. I do get it, these aren't privacy-friendly websites, but for professional purposes, lot of people are forced to use chromium browsers or user-agent strings.
> Google websites intentionally degrade performance if you browse from Firefox.
If this is true they should be in court for these anti-competitive practices.
The thing is, Gecko is really insecure when compared to Chromium. Its sandboxing is asinine. Additionally, due to lack of WebView implementation, on mobile you have to use Chromium either way, leaving you with two completely separate attack surfaces.
Quoting GrapheneOS developers[1]:
> Avoid Gecko-based browsers like Firefox as they're currently much more vulnerable to exploitation and inherently add a huge amount of attack surface. Gecko doesn't have a WebView implementation (GeckoView is not a WebView implementation), so it has to be used alongside the Chromium-based WebView rather than instead of Chromium, which means having the remote attack surface of two separate browser engines instead of only one. Firefox / Gecko also bypass or cripple a fair bit of the upstream and GrapheneOS hardening work for apps. Worst of all, Firefox does not have internal sandboxing on Android. This is despite the fact that Chromium semantic sandbox layer on Android is implemented via the OS isolatedProcess feature, which is a very easy to use boolean property for app service processes to provide strong isolation with only the ability to communicate with the app running them via the standard service API. Even in the desktop version, Firefox's sandbox is still substantially weaker (especially on Linux) and lacks full support for isolating sites from each other rather than only containing content as a whole. The sandbox has been gradually improving on the desktop but it isn't happening for their Android browser yet.
IronFox (an FF fork) developers[2]:
> While we do as much as possible to improve the situation, it should be noted that Firefox-based web browsers, including IronFox, have security deficiencies when compared to Chromium. This is especially notable on Android.
[1] https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing
[2] https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox/-/blob/dev/docs/Limit...
An in-depth examination of this topic and a plethora of other sources can also be found here: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.ht...
I don't know the internal details of the architecture, but on Windows, it's very trivial to be "Chromium". The newest web browser component has been based on Chromium for a few years.
>Can someone explain to me why most browser forks are based on Chromium?
Because it's very very very good. Google poored billions into it and it shows.
Its probably the easiest to build off of.
This is neat, and reminds me of Kagi's browser Orion, since their hero image features Kagi search.
Orion is WebKit based, so it uses less battery and feels faster to me compared to Chromium browsers, yet it largely supports Chrome extensions via a compatibility layer; like Helium uBlock Origin is included by default. It also has vertical tabs which is essential for me, and open-url routing between profiles.
However, I tried it in January 2025 and gave up on using it after a few weeks of sporadic bugs. I didn't lose data or anything but some actions in the UI didn't produce any result, or they produced a confusing unintended result. I hope they get better - I will probably give it another go in a few months, especially since Arc (my current browser) is now owned by Atlassian.
https://kagi.com/orion/
Anyways, great to see a Chromium browser improving on the privacy of ungoogled-chromium.
I love Kagi as a search engine but the Orion UI feels too similar to Safari to really enjoy it as much.
I do enjoy vertical tabs, faster browsing, better privacy obviously. But "largely" is doing some heavy lifting in your mention of chrome extension support. I use about a dozen chrome extensions typically and about 4 of them are supported by Orion last I checked. Although of course #12 in Chrome is the Kagi search extension itself :)
The bookmarks bar seems consistently wonky though, with bookmarks showing the wrong logos (like Google Sheets showing up with the Google Docs logo, or ChatGPT showing some weirdly cropped version of itself), inability to rearrange bookmarks in a folder without opening the dedicated bookmark manager page.
If some basic usability things like this were fixed, along with adding tab groups (also big for me when I have 50 tabs open), I'd probably give it another go. Kagi search engine has largely replaced google search already for me so I'll definitely give it another go once these things are updated.
Thanks for the feedback, I definitely see some wonkiness with the bookmarks bar and forwarded them to the team to investigate.
Please add a setting to disable tab hibernation. Opening my laptop on a plane only to discover most of the tabs have been offloaded makes using Orion impossible.
Tried Orion on mac for a week or two. I also had a few bugs when using google docs and sheets. I gave up because I couldn’t work. However I keep using the iOS app. It’s quite good although I need to restart the app from time to time because of some bugs.
Upvoted because this is very relevant to my prospective usage of any alternative browser.
The biggest problem with Orion is the Firefox & Chrome extensions; Many don't work properly, but you don't see any errors, so you have no idea what parts are working and aren't.
Like using a content blocker and "hoping for the best". It might work, or not.
That's one of the reasons i stopped using Orion...
Would use it 100% if it was open source, such a solvable dealbreaker.
Zen browser is eating their lunch at the moment.
Note that Zen Browser is (yet another) Firefox fork. Might as well just use Firefox, with better settings (like Arkenfox user.js, customized how you like it). Would be better security & privacy wise.
Orion is a WebKit based browser (like Safari).
Orion was a very unstable/buggy app. I don't know how it is now. The funny thing is when I had reached out to their support with a detailed bug report, they asked me to go to GitHub issues instead (or their feedback forum; not sure whether they had moved). I asked them to pass it to the team since I had already shared it and these were easily and always reproducible; I had added proper steps as well. They said - nope. At that point, I realised what a mistake it had been trying to "contribute" to yet another closed-source software. Mail thread deleted, browsers - both iOS/mac - uninstalled. End of story.
I'm sorry you had this experience. If you still have the bug report please send it to daniel.langh at kagi.com. I'll check on your original report and see how we can improve our communication going forward.
Hey, thanks for asking.
I am afraid I do not have those anymore. There were few in the mail and almost 20 (few of those were feature suggestions tbh) in the notes app. I later deleted those as well when I was cleaning up notes and cleared trash of the app. I just checked iCloud and it doesn't have that old history. If I use Orion again - hopefully when it's open source - I shall report bugs I find directly on the feedback site or the proper bug report channel then. Cheers.
(edited:)
Iirc it was from Jan-Feb of this year or maybe a bit further back. I am sure most of those would have been fixed. I remember one - when I would see the "all tabs" view on iOS and then click "Done" to get back to the normal usage window i.e one tab in focus and nothing happened. i.e basically returning from the "all tabs" view on iOS where you used to reach with swipe up on Safari.
Another - clear history on Mac used to crash for me. These were the most annoying and 100% repro. for me.
One more → iirc there was no way to customise (or I didn't find - not sure anymore) right click context menu on Mac. I almost always used "open in new tab" and there were too many options there which I didn't want or maybe didn't want on top.
Might’ve worth giving it another shot. It’s still somewhat buggy but usually just with UI things. I haven’t had a lot of actual functionality issues in the last couple months of use on iOS or macOS.
If they open sourced it maybe they could get those pesky bugs fixed...
maybe! I hope they do.
https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/34
It's based on ungoogled-chromium and about 3 people are working on it.
https://github.com/imputnet/helium
I'm guessing it doesn't support certificate revocation very well as ungoogled-chromium has/had some issues with that.
removing every google url in a browser without replacements will have such downsides
> about 3 people are working on it
Hard pass. Arc had an entire dev team with serious investors and couldn't just focus on building a browser
That's because they had serious investors
And it's written in Python.
Actually it's mostly patch files but they're ignored by github.
it's a few hundred lines worth of scripts to produce an ungoogled chromium with some nicer defaults, why wouldn't it, in case pointing that out is meant to be a criticism.
oh ok, welp, :shrug:
From a few months of use I think qutebrowser is good enough to prove that a python web browser is not inherently a bad idea.
qutebrowser is not technically a "Python web browser". The GUI uses Python Qt bindings, and the browser engine itself is QtWebEngine. Python is simply the glue that ties it all together, and any language could be used instead, since performance is not a concern. This is why there are so many small niche "web browsers", such as Luakit, Nyxt, surf, etc.
Surely performance is even less of a concern for a set of tools applying one time patches to ungoogled chromium?
I would not feel comfortable with my browsing data being in the hands of 3 random people.
What about 10,000 ?
Both have their pros and cons, but overall I'd go with the 10,000.
Better than either is the frequency of 3rd party audits/security reviews/research interests - but I think that comes more from usage/popularity than the size of the 1st party dev team.
In the "choose a default search engine" page, it has a slightly amusing summary for each.
> Google
> Your personal data fuels its monopoly. Market-dominant due to anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices.
> Qwant
> Based in Europe. Uses Bing results. Sends tracking data to Microsoft.
> DuckDuckGo
> Privacy-focused. Relies on Bing results but never tracks or profiles you.
> Ecosia
> May plant trees for clicking ads. Relies on Bing and Google. Sends tracking data to Microsoft and Google.
> Microsoft Bing
> Collects extensive personal data. Privacy controls are buried and limited. Subjectively overwhelming UI.
> Kagi
> Privacy-focused. Customizable results without ads or tracking. Requires a paid account.
Slightly amusing, perhaps, but accurate and concise? Definitely.
I wish we could just add our own default search with a search string template like when the Internet was still alive.
That being said, I like using the slightly more obscure presearch.com and Swisscows.com, for what it’s worth.
> I wish we could just add our own default search with a search string template like when the Internet was still alive.
Can't we? The %s thing works in Vivaldi. Worked in Chrome last time I checked.
Firefox still lets you do this.
You can add any URL as a custom search engine by providing a string template for the query.
It doesn't have to be a formal "search provider". Any URL that accepts a query string will work.
IMO the problem with Firefox is that custom search engines in Firefox can't use POST requests, even though it's supported. You may want to check Mycroft Project [1] out for that.
[1]: https://mycroftproject.com/
The only major browser that I can think of that doesn't support custom search URLs, including making one the default, is Safari.
Please review your opinion about Qwant, the overwhelming majority of search results are produced internally and they are very clear about what isn't: https://betterweb.qwant.com/en/2023/09/18/web-indexing-where...
In Europe they are still IMHO the best option for an independent search engine.
The irony is it is a Chromium browser...
Imagine reading that list in 1995. Sigh.
[dead]
> Kagi
should be changed to
> Openly and proudly collaborates with russian government
Kagi uses Yandex to improve search results for relevant queries. That's all they do.
As a company providing the service of web search, Kagi should do whatever it takes to improve search results. I imagine Yandex is the biggest and most complete index of Russian-language content - not using it would make the search results worse. The fact that Kagi still cross-references other indexes and allows users to downgrade specific results provides a check on propaganda content.
It's OK to have an opinion, and it's OK to dislike Kagi because it doesn't have the same opinion. It's wrong to mischaracterize what Kagi does, using wording that strongly suggests actions way more nefarious than giving a few dollars to a Russian company in exchange for some (anonymized) API calls.
What's the context? Is there a proof of sorts?
https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...
There is nothing about collaborating with Russian government in the post. They merely make use of a Russian-based search engine to provide better search results. I won't argue if this is good or bad, but from your statement it sounds like they collect all the users' data and sell it directly to Federal Security Service.
Yandex is russian government
That's as shallow as "<anything Russian> is Russian government". Russian government certainly established strong leverage over Yandex (and every other major business for that matter), but they don't exactly own the company.
Such blanket statements really don't bring anything to the table.
PS: I think you might be confusing Yandex with VK. VK are known to be loyal to government and provide users' data to law enforcement at a whim, without proper procedures.
Yeesh, tough crowd in these comments. And yet everyone's excited for new Gmail skins. Anyway.
I hope more people take ungoogled-chromium and create new interfaces. It's a shame that Servo's in an unusable state, I'd love to see more tooling around that.
I just want someone to give me Opera 12...I suppose that's Vivaldi though.
I still have all my marbles on Ladybird and have no reason to change this. Helium just seems like something that wasn't thought out very far
I’ll concede that it does look rather basic
I tried Opera a few months ago and could not stick to it. All the features they were pitching at me felt a little off. The various panel integrations were clunky and didn't seem to offer anything over just... tabs.
Maybe not surprisingly, I'm currently on Vivaldi (although it has its own issues of not infrequent slowness or hangs).
Opera is the worse browser any one could give a chance in 2025: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39123477
Don’t let Opera cloud your judgement since it’s a poor choice to start with.
And Vivaldi also supports MV2 extensions - so uBlock origin still works without any issues.
Vivaldi doesn't intend to maintain MV2, from their website:
> We will keep Manifest v2 for as long as it’s still available in Chromium. We expect to drop support in June 2025, but we may maintain it longer or be forced to drop support for it sooner, depending on the precise nature of the changes to the code.
https://vivaldi.com/blog/manifest-v3-update-vivaldi-is-futur...
>We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible.
This doesn't particularly give people any confidence in your product if even the devs don't know how long they can hold the line. Why not fork Firefox like Zen?
I know this is unfair to firefox, majority of enterprise software now (including and starting with Microsoft teams) outright say do not support firefox or have ‘limited’ support whatever that means.
For anyone working remotely like me, teams is a crucial piece of software (however bad it is). So as much as I like Firefox and legends that started it and religiously developed it over the years, bottom line, I can’t use it now.
Some maybe majority of blame falls on Mozilla, they let it stagnate and focus on cosmetic changes in last few years instead of focusing on improving core technology.
> majority of enterprise software now (including and starting with Microsoft teams) outright say do not support firefox
Teams has explicitly supported Firefox for a while now https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoftteams/teams-clien... but the problem is "there's always another site that doesn't work right". Firefox usage share got too low, so places just check Chrom* and Safari work with the new feature and ship (sometimes not even the latter, if they don't care about mobile as much).
> there's always another site that doesn't work right
I keep hearing it, but personally I’ve only come across one recently (a site was running some tracking bullshit that broke on FF). And there’s one feature broken on LinkedIn.
Take that you know of 2 from recent memory and imagine someone unlucky enough to be in the top 10% of most broken sites experience by chance for the last 3 months. Those are the ones that comment/leave about it, but it's a game of attrition over a long enough time.
Webcompat used to be a lot more active (not sure if it's one of the things Mozilla has stopped actively engaging or not) but it was always a few big sites followed by an endless stream of "I'd never use that site, but that's precisely the kind of thing an average user wouldn't want to be troubleshooting" stuff. E.g. I remember seeing https://webcompat.com/issues/136422 and thinking "yeah, the hospitals I used to work at stopped testing in Firefox too - and the sites are already frustrating when they work as expected".
I know of 2 from the past few years. I mean yeah, this is n=1, others use other sites which do break etc. It’s a sad state of things, but also most of the web does work the same. It’s certainly not an acceptable tradeoff for everyone, but for me it’s been totally fine.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Feels like we need something like early versions of Edge, where it was using Chromium but could be told to open individual tabs (or configured to always open links to certain origins) in an IE webview.
Except, instead of Chromium, Firefox, and instead of IE, Chromium.
I assume you mean early edge2. The first release of edge (project spartan) used a custom rendering engine and javascript runtime. The chrome-based version released five years later.
It might have died with e10s but there was a firefox extension that let you embed IE in a tab on demand or for certain sites.
Many vendors look at the userAgent. I’d be surprised if Microsoft Teams org doesn't have some soft incentives pushing Edge and if not edge Chromium-based browsers.
Then again, there are definitely some Firefox behaviors that differ from the WebKit-derived engines (webkit, blink, etc); for a few years Notion editor had very different UX in Firefox for this reason. They eventually fixed it though! Firefox's profiler is also excellent, I always analyze my Chrome profiles in https://profiler.firefox.com/ when I'm optimizing CPU use.
I work every day with Firefox and the only problem I have is with Citrix.
Citrix has always been shit, so is not surprising.
Firefox has been so far so good for me, in terms of support.
spoof the user agent. it'll probably work just fine.
I just can't go back to horizontal tabs anymore.
vertical tabs never really worked for me. What would you say are the biggest benefits for you?
Not the parent commenter but
1. Great if you have a wider screen (could never do it on my old 13" Macbook Air, for a 15" it's pretty good but for a 24" iMac it's perfect). But if you need the space youjust have it set to minimize by default, maximize on hover.
2. See the titles of your browser tabs, which is great when you are like me and never have fewer than 30 tabs open at once.
3. Easier to select browser tabs when you have many of them open (ie they don't get squished unreadably small)
I still use horizontal tabs, but have dabbled with vertical tabs. The biggest benefit I saw was that tab names stayed a consistent width and readable, no matter now many tabs I had open. With horizontal tabs, once you have over 10-15, you’re kind of flying blind.
Basically, it's easier to see tab titles when you have a LOT of tabs open.
They really only work if you have a large monitor. I use a 50" 4k TV and two other monitors, and a 15" laptop. When I'm on smaller screens I have to hide the tabs.
Your typical screen today is wider than most content on the web needs it to be, so most web pages render as tall columns with ample margins. Vertical tabs use up that space efficiently to show a large number of tabs in a way that makes it much easier to see all your tabs at a glance without losing track because the titles are shortened into nothing.
i can't wait for Safari to add proper horizontal tabs. There's a sidebar with tabs but you still have compact tabs taking up precious vertical space
They didn’t really take up any space in Sequoia, but Tahoe brought them back. I guess people didn’t like how Sequoia was doing things.
I find the Tahoe tab bar pretty ugly.
What are you using instead?
Edge for me, since it has the single best implementation of vertical tabs on the market, with smooth expand on hover. Every time I try other browsers, I am immediately put off by how lacking in polish vertical tabs feel in comparison and go back.
Vivaldi has an excellent implementation of vertical tabs.
Not OP, but I use vertical tabs with Vivaldi.
Pretty happy with it; I tried basically all browsers out there, fully switching to them for some time even if I didn't even like them, and after all that time I found Vivaldi the best overall browser right now (for me).
+1 for Vivaldi, so many options
tried vivaldi and it felt really bloated and clunky to me, atleast compared to zen, is that just how it is or is it much better after configuration?
Vivaldi is clunky and slow because the entire user interface (tab bar, address bar, title bar if enabled, etc) is a webview rather than native-ish controls like all other browsers.
Probably Zen, as Arc is dead
Pretty sure both Firefox and Microsoft Edge both offer it as an option too.
Firefox's new implementation is subpar. You're better off using an add-on like Sidebery for more features, but you need custom user chrome CSS to hide the horizontal tabs.
And Brave
Orion, too.
Zen is lovely but I actually really miss the little arc window. Didn't realize how much I used it until it was gone. Sticking with Arc for now.
Arc works fine; Orion (Kagi's browser) is like an Arc built on WebKit.
I really don't see many similarities between Orion and Arc but I also didn't use Arc very much because I was pessimistic that it would stay free and consistently updated without annoying monetization features. I didn't expect them to switch to a brand new browser though lol.
Firefox added vertical tabs recently
Arc
How will they make money? Or is this always meant to be OSS community supported?
The challenge is that people have to get paid and infrastructure to build things costs money. Looks like there are only two people full-time at the company right now, though even then eventually they’ll need some revenue stream.
I love this project, but to have confidence that it stays that way it would be nice to see how they’ll replace they’ll stay afloat.
Why does a browser need to be continually updated?
Is Google/W3C adding more features and busy work to keep browser developers employed?
> Is Google/W3C adding more features and busy work to keep browser developers employed?
Most of those changes would be supported by the underlying rendering engine, and the only ones doing that afaik are Ladybird.
It's simply that building and mantaining _the rest_ of what we now expect a modern browser to be is staggeringly hard.
Security updates to fix zero-days? Google releases those very often and such forks take a long time to integrate them (even big forks) so I would not trust such a small team.
Yes. I left a feedback about a website posted on HN, turns out it works just fine on the latest version of Vivaldi, but not a previous version from a few months ago. So yeah, gotta keep it updated. :(
Lol yes
I really have no interest in using a Chromium/Blink browser at this point, that's the real kicker for me.
I would prefer to use and support browsers using alternate rendering engines and without any ties back to Google, even if it means I personally get a lesser experience, because I don't trust Google and I want to ensure they don't entirely control the direction of the browsable internet.
Does it have manifest V2 like CNAM filtering? And if it's chromium based how is it going to support back port of features that are making it to chromium without investment in a robust dev team?
It's based on ungoogled-chromium which applies https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium/blo... to retain manifest v2 features. They're likely dependent on ungoogled-chromium for maintaining this feature.
They say they'll support MV2 "as long as possible".
You have my attention!
But in this day and age, I need to understand more about intentions, and what sustains projects like this.
For the moment I've settled on Safari simply because Apple makes its billions elsewhere, even if I am increasingly disappointed with how they are playing along with politics right now.
I just wish there were a browser that would use their webview technology with better tabbing, video playback, etc. Apple is often minimal to a fault.
Kagi’s Orion browser tries to do this, and it works great for me on iOS (though I still use Firefox on my mac)
https://kagi.com/orion/
I have troubling using different browsers for different platforms these days. I get too much benefit from sync.
Right now? All major corporations play along with whatever the current political winds are. Your own personal biases don't matter in their decision making.
Sure. But I am allowed to compare now to yesteryear, and on my own scale the differences are humungous.
What makes you think that Apple respects your privacy any more than Google and Microsoft? The marketing brochure?
Apple has released several privacy features, their slogan is “Privacy. That’s Apple.”, and they make their money from hardware. Even if not a perfect company it’s sure as hell a better bet than MS or google.
So it's just the marketing pamphlet.
Apple increasingly makes money via services.
Can gauge it for myself. You do you.
I certainly will not be equating Apple to Google or Microsoft.
For now.
My biggest problem with Thorium was lack of updates, so I hope Helium is able to remain consistent with updates. Congrats on the launch, cobalt crew!
Make an Android version that supports extensions (preferably MV2) like the now abandoned Kiwi Browser did and I'll be very interested.
Yes I'd be interested too. I'm still using Kiwi browser but afraid it will stop working anytime soon.
I did recently see this browser is unsafe when trying to open Gmail in it, so any chromium based update to date alternative there would be amazing!
I still (unfortunately) am stuck with kiwi as well. I use it almost exclusively for a few webapps that use large amounts of indexeddb storage (>10gb) without a working export method[1]. With Firefox, I was able to export this data with devtools over ADB[2] to another Firefox install.
I really wish someone would create an indexeddb shim that interfaces with another system and only uses indexeddb for (very large) cache. Something I could drop in with a userscript would be lovely, even if it required running a local server with something like rsync or rclone responsible for the actual transfers.
[1]: dexie import export used to work, now it never returns. I have no way of verifying that it's doing nothing without putting it in background (thus suspending it...), but I've let it run 3 hours with no results. [2]: Firefox doesn't allow backing up app data for some reason but devtools functions allow reading and writing the profile directory through the use of terminal commands (zip profile directory, unzip and restart browser).
I learned about this project from Theo (T3 guy), and his approval of it, make of that what you will.
Not 100% related but I found it funny that on that specific video, in which he spends the best part of 40 minutes talking about how the only browsers that are worth talking about are ones which "improve" your browsing experience beyond Chrome, which is the de facto "decent" browser. He mentions Zen and Vivaldi as examples.
He then finishes the video gushing about how he loves helium, which is just ungoogled-chromium lol
a) He has a “I use the web in a very niche way that nobody cares about an your browser sucks if it doesn’t meet those exact needs” way of thinking
b) He is an investor in helium
Unlike others, I like that it's Chromium because it means I get the devtools. Whenever I try to use other browsers I always get held back by how they work in other browsers, and I do a lot of front-end dev.
I'm posting this comment from Helium and so far, so good! I would honestly say ignore the naysayers, everything is a trade off, including which browser engine you put under the hood.
Same, I wanted to like Zen browser for instance but I just could not keep using it because I cannot stand Firefox devtools. I'm too used to chromes.
If I could have a version of zen that looked exactly like it but had their devtools it'd probably be my main driver.
I'm less interested in privacy browsers that just use Chromium and then slap some chrome around it.
Instead, what I want is a browser that actively blocks annoying page behaviors. For example, I want a browser that makes all text on a page selectable, prevents a page from trapping right-click, prevents a page from accessing the clipboard, ect, ect.
Try the StopTheMadness extension. It is a godsend.
Is that Safari-only or Mac-only? I can't seem to find a way to install it into Brave on Windows from https://underpassapp.com/StopTheMadness/
It doesn't support Windows or Android.
That browser is Safari, configured with the option to open all pages in reader mode.
It's just a Brave Browser copycat
Zen browser is my home currently, I think Arc has broken my ability to move back to traditional tab management.
WHY IS EVERYONE IN COMMENTS SO OLD AND BITTER WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE DOING
I think it's a mixture of dislike for Google/Chrome and the constant Chromium reskins that dominate the browser market + Firefox evangelism.
I'll personally say I don't hate this project as such, I mainly use a Chromium based browser because I build a product that uses the FileSystem API with a directory picker [0] and the FileSystem Observer API [1]. Both of which aren't supported anywhere except Chromium based browsers.
I used to use Thorium, but last build was out in February and I simply can't use that as my main browser, so now I simply use ungoogled-chromium.
I can easily avoid any Google telemetry, use uBlock Origin with MV2, Privacy Badger and the plus point is all sites work. I love Firefox as well, but I feel you can't do much about the fact all "regular" people end up using Chrome or Safari; so while developing on the web you simply can't become a Firefox main and avoid chromium entirely.
[0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/show... [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/FileSystemO...
Generally because there's not that much to comment on, as this is effectively a somewhat prettier ungoogled chromium, and so there's not much room to make positive comments. Though I agree people get caught up in negativity easily.
Why are you writing in upper case?
To me, that contributes to the overall uncomfortability
Can someone explain to me how this differentiates itself from (ungoogled) Chromium with a few tweaks?
How does it compare to Firefox privacy wise being based on chromium?
Same. I generally avoid Chrome-based browsers on all devices.
What privacy concerns do you have with Chromium?
Google
The noun, not the verb
Do you have any evidence that a chromium derivative browser is less "private" than a Firefox derivative?
There's a lot of comments around this in the main thread. Mostly about how Google gets to dictate standards of the internet and how these aren't always privacy friendly.
I'll also add that it's easy for bad features to sneak in without users knowing. We happened to be talking about this issue in a related thread just the other day [0]. This one the Brave devs were even aware of bot users weren't... so it's kinda a good example of both points
[0] just check out the linked GitHub issue https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45364533
I'm not sure why I'd bother using this when it's just another Chromium browser.
As it currently stands, I'm leaning more into WebKit-based, but for daily use it's Firefox. I'm not happy with any of them, but I'd struggle to pick just one right now.
Back about 20 years ago there was a lightweight Gecko-based web browser called 'Camino' that was a delight compared to Firefox or other 'full' browsers. It was fast, simplified, and still rendered pages well. I didn't always use it, but it was a joy to use.
I downloaded Helium and gave it a spin and my first impression was "Ah, it's like Camino all over again". I can't use this for my job where I need to use stock {Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Edge} because our customers do - but for personal browsing I'm currently using Arc which is very comfortable but heavy, I might try to use Helium for quick simple things when I want less overhead! Thanks for sharing!
One criticism with your website: It incorrectly assumes I'm not on desktop and hides the download button from me.
I was excited for a new Helium browser release and it just turns out that people these days don’t even do a single google search before using a name that is already taken.
https://slashlos.github.io/Helium/
Couldn't try to (together with Theo / t3) bully the Homebrew developers into a forced takeover of a package [1] if it were a conflict-free name.
[1] https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/pull/229061
The cask has not been majorly updated in almost 10 years years and is used to connect to a mobile app that hasn't been on the Play Store for almost 5 years, while easily underneath the minimum threshold of downloads for being removed. What's wrong with asking to expedite the removal process, considering the process is detailed in the guidelines?
> What's wrong with asking to expedite the removal process, considering the process is detailed in the guidelines?
Asking is one thing, the other thing is not accepting the decision of a maintainer on a topic that is at the maintainers discretion and instead taking it to social media [1] [2] for it to be brigaded.
Addendum: It additionally appears that this was filed before the browser was even launched, if the Wayback Machine and their social media posts are anything to go by.
[1] https://x.com/uwukko/status/1970161297783238905 [2] https://x.com/theo/status/1970266199469810127
There are, unfortunately, only 118 different element names to choose from. Few of which end with -ium.
Wow, that's a real fuckup.
No commits on that project for 5 years, so what are you talking about?
Also, superseded by He3 https://slashlos.github.io/He3/
Having the option to set Kagi as my search engine right away is nice. I wish more browsers included Kagi as an option.
My biggest gripe with Safari is that it only handles the few blessed search engines Apple has chosen.
On my personal systems I can use the extension to hack Kagi support in there, but it’s a bit of an ugly solution.
On my work laptop, we aren’t allowed to use the App Store, so I can’t get the extension. This means if I want to use Safari and Kagi, I need to go to the actual Kagi homepage, which is a very annoying behavior pattern.
I used Firefox for a while at work because of this, but now that’s been blocked too. I’m trying really hard not to give in and use Chrome, but at this point, it would make my work life easier. It supports adding other search engines natively, which is quite ironic.
I submitted feedback to Apple about this. They have integrated some of my feedback into past releases (silence unknown callers, most notably), but they must have some silly business reason for not allowing this, which is very disappointing.
> Helium also doesn't make any web requests without your explicit consent, it makes zero web requests on first launch.
God (I say as a prayer!) this is what I want for every single app and the OS. Currently on LibreWolf but will look at this carefully.
Is there a reason for not having Issues on their main repo? Especially since they're in a beta stage; they don't have to fix/acknowledge all issues, but as an end-user they're pretty useful for debugging, seeing actual human feedback.
It's about time programmers stopped naming products and languages after elements and chemicals. Haven't we had enough of that?
We should name languages only after letters. After all, 26 languages should be enough for anybody.
It's actually deliberately clever wordplay. Helium is light, chromium is heavy. Their browser is a set of patches to Chromium.
I tried it a few days ago, a privacy-focused Chrome that doesn't break browsing experience resonates with me. The team seems to care about quality and the browser felt good overall.
A few things that made me go back to Brave: - No vertical tabs - Sync with mobile - I haven't found how to show bookmarks bar only on blank page - Little customization for new tab page (might be fixable using extensions)
I'll definitely follow the project as Brave is far from perfect too.
Regarding the bookmarks bar, Settings / Appearance / Show Bookmarks Bar. If the setting is off, the bar only appears on new tabs. I found that by accident.
thank you! Indeed, it is shown on a new tab in such case!
While I am not interested for the same reasons many others have stated here, I would like to point out that their privacy policy is exemplary:
> Helium does not make any network requests, including to the Services, unless such requests are the result of user actions (for example, visiting a website or installing an extension) or are part of features that the user has explicitly enabled or configured during setup. If Helium is making any network requests without your consent, please file a bug report.
Gold standard.
If any devs are reading: please add compact tabs like safari and an extension that summarizes pages/video transcripts and enables LLM chat with that context.
There are a lot of privacy browsers floating around. I'm a big fan of Brave, and it took me some digging to see the difference.
In my case, the lack of sync is a big show stopper for me. Brave syncs without "cloud." Instead, it syncs when you have the browser open on both devices.
Bangs, or as I like to call them AOL Keywords.
i think we have enough asshole logos already guys
What is the auto-update mechanism on macOS? One of the primary reasons I use ungoogled chromium is because I can update it via homebrew myself. I don’t trust browsers with running invisible background auto-updaters.
> No adware, no bloat, no noise.
And, apparently, no tree style tabs, no vertical tabs at all.
What does Tree Style Tabs offer that Sidebery doesn't?
I switched to it and haven't looked back. The tab search functionality is so damn nice.
Nothing, Sideberry is just a more modern TST implementation. I referred Tree Style Tabs as a UI pattern, not one particular extension.
While chromium deep down, it seems they mostly ripped and repackaged from defunct projects and companies such as ungoogled-chromium and the irridium browser, right? Why would 2 cat avatars carry what others obviously failed to maintain?
The only problem is it disables OOB security updates.
https://qua3k.github.io/ungoogled/
Indeed, we need a real alternative, something really bringing new on the table: we need a modern web engine we can compile with a simple C compiler.
Those "browsers" are just front-end to the web engines of the whatng cartel.
Releasing a browser without cross OS support incl. mobile devices, makes no sense now a days. Extension support and bookmarks sync is also a must have. That's why Firefox is still my browser.
It comes packaged with uBlock Origin. Is it the mv2 version or Origin Lite?
What's the difference between this and Brave?
Woah ... the FIRST "privacy-based" browser in, at least, 29 days. That's amazing!
I am happy using brave after disabling most of their own features. Any reason I should give this a go?
What's the catch? Looks too good to be true.
It looks like a pretty normal chromium variant to me? It's nice to see the work of ungoogled-chromium given a nicer skin.
It’s playing the Browser Company playbook
Highly doubt that, as they’re already known in the OSS community. Browser Co. expanded as fast as possible without any way to make revenue, then ditched their flagship product to make a bad agentic browser
One way to expand even faster is to put out a quasi OSS
> MacOS
If you want to target privacy nerds, please consider supporting Linux off the bat.
I think I'll just wait for Ladybird, in the meantime keep using Safari and Firefox as always.
And the biggest problem with extensions is their security model of permissions. How is this solving for that?
Like many others here, I too am turned off by it being Chromium.
its been a daily driver for me for a pretty long time now and i can say that its amazing to work with.
i dangle between Zen and Helium and both are a very solid option imo. I don't really get all the browser wars
Call me sceptic but not falling for it again. I have been hurt too many times.
so you have ptsd from a browser?
Aren't we all?
So another Chromium based browser featuring the usual 'Privacy' and a collection of miscellaneous features. Maybe 'AI' will be added. None of this appears to go beyond what some browser extension could do. Personally I'm not seeing the appeal.
As a side note, the very similar Arc browser was just sold off to Atlassian for a quick exit.
Still Chromium based, I will stick with Zen.
What is the primary difficulty in developing a web browser?
- breadth of the http/css/js standard? - inefficient implementations - requires too many resources?
Why has the market converged on two major players and most independent attempts fall short?
They're 30+ million lines of code to cover the feature set, but monetization is tough and security/feature churn is constant. It's also nearly meaningless to start small - either you build everything or you don't.
This is just Chromium with some patches though, the problem with these kinds of things is it's small groups that tend to lose interest.
It's a good plan to plug-in AI into chromium and sell it to someone like atlassian. Or you know, ask MS to invest a couple mil and buy azure infrastructure from them. VC go brrr..
I'll stick with FF or brave until Mullvad or else comes up with a good alternative
Why Helium is better than Brave, another privacy conscious browser based on Chromium?
> New browser
> Based on Chromium
Sigh...
I am really trying to understand how the web would work with 0 ads.
I hate all the invasive pop-up crap ads with a passion, but this 0 ads just gets to a lot of gatekeeping, putting things under subscriptions etc.
It would work just fine. People will use search to find products they seek.
Good. "Free" is a lie.
Where is the scroll bar?
Why did anyone think it was a good idea to put tabs in the title bar. How the hell am I supposed to easily drag a window if I have 100 tabs open? Who the hell thought this was a good idea? Why do I feel like the only sane human being left on Earth? Why is this project continuing to use this horrible UI convention?
How are they going to make money or enshittify this in the future or sell it off to an evil billion dollar corporation who will sell my data off to god knows who?
</rant> :/ ...the site design is nice at least.
I would hate to have a 40px title bar doing nothing except wasting space on my screen. I've been using this layout for years, and I didn't even consider that anyone could have an issue with this until I read your statement.
I'm not saying that you are wrong to disregard it due to your personal preferences, but please consider that this might not be such a horrible design as you make it out to be. Also, you can be certain that you are not the only sane person left - I think it's just that most of them don't show up on boards and forums.
The parent post is overly strongly worded, but I agree with the meat of it: tabs should not be in the title bar of the window. It's worse usability for a space savings that really isn't relevant because it's so small.
Just because it is not doing anything at the moment doesn't mean it doesn't serve an important, necessary purpose. For a windowed application environment to be functional and usable, there needs to be an easy way to drag windows around the screen. When you start moving things into that space, it makes the system harder to use.
A once-simple action which required minimal thought now requires you to parse an arbitrarily populated area of the screen and find a tiny gap within a litany of buttons and controls and carefully drag that part of the window. If you make a slight mistake and click on a tab or button, the unwanted activation of that control (e.g. switching to a new tab) serves to needlessly penalize the user.
This is not just an issue with web browsers now, but seemingly everywhere. It's been a big issue in the macOS Finder for a while now.
At the very least, Firefox still gives me the option to show the native window title bar, which I very much appreciate. It's certainly not the sexiest part of the UI, given the native element clashes a bit with FF's controls, but at least it's usable! This is an issue that could be solved by giving people a choice via a simple toggle... Most often, the option isn't there.
I'm sorry people have downvoted my post here a bit, and I agree it was a bit strongly worded, but I won't apologize for venting some frustration at what I see as the perpetuation of user-hostile design choices like this.
There is some space you can click on for dragging the window, or on Linux just hold Alt and move the window. I have an application for Windows that allows me to do the same.
Firefox does that too and avoid this issue reserving a small space on right site of title bar. Not the end of the world.
Thanks for this reply. This comment chain sent me through an existential crisis.
OP made it sound like tabs in the title bar was a new innovation.
"The parent post is overly strongly worded, but I agree with the meat of it: tabs should not be in the title bar of the window. It's worse usability for a space savings that really isn't relevant because it's so small."
I was nodding to this.
But I'm also someone who cares about vertical screen real estate (enough to call it vertical screen real estate).
So I was in a hypocritical conundrum. Do I care about the title bar, or do not care about the title bar?
Check firefox. Wait wtf, my firefox has no title bar! Did I customize it myself, I don't remember removing it???
I miss so much Safari's compact tabs that Apple introduced in 2021 and now removed on Tahoe. One more thing to dislike[1] in this macOS update…
[1] https://manualdousuario.net/en/liquid-glass-2/
> Why did anyone think it was a good idea to put tabs in the title bar.
Because we decided it was a good idea to keep making monitors wider and wider and wider without making them any taller, and not everyone wants vertical tabs.
You can pry my 16:10 monitor from my cold dead fingers. Give me a 3:2 and you'll never get it back.
Why do you have 100 tabs open in the same window, anyways? Use tab groups and profiles, with a secondary window for session-tabs that'll get closed soon. Having too many tabs is like having too many desktop icons, but worse.
I’d rather ask, why are desktop environments continuing to use the horrible UI convention of stacking window managers? In a tiling window manager, there is no reason to waste space on a draggable window bar.
> How the hell am I supposed to easily drag a window if I have 100 tabs open?
By holding a key and clicking anywhere in the window area.
> Who the hell thought this was a good idea?
Anyone who uses a better dragging method and doesn't want to waste space
Does it support PWAs?
From the website
> Install any web apps and use them as standalone desktop apps without duplicating Chromium.
Thanks
Get it to Ubuntu LTS repository and I will use it.
> There are currently 2 of us
Nope. No. Thank you.
Props for featuring Kagi though.
another chromium fork?
It’s the new vscode fork
Another chromium fork, no thanks.
> Fast, efficient, and light
> Helium is based on Chromium
> [screenshot image of geckos and lizards]
Is the marketing page deliberately trying to rub it in Mozilla's face?
Wow another chromium skin, how exciting.
Yet another wrapper on chromium, no thank you.
> We'll keep support for MV2 extensions for as long as possible.
“As long as possible” being _exactly_ why chromium wrappers have zero value.
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