An articulated rationale for why a fork would go a long way for awareness of why an existing user of Helix might consider to use Mitos instead (or not) really needs to be the first thing we see on the front page of the site for Mitos.
One thing that really sticks out to me and gives me a feeling I won't consider to use Mitos, is the presentation further down on Mitos' front page of rendering of image files inside the terminal emulator. I rather that an image viewing program be opened, maybe called with options to not display interface widgets, and to be displayed in a new window tab. I use i3 or Sway, so I already have macros that do just this, and I don't fail to appreciate that others have this luxury (or not).
Alternative branches, or even forks like this are a good thing. Sometimes these help reach new consensus and merge back into the original project making the new project stronger, provided the original reason for a fork wasn't really issues of conflicting personalities.
I think a fork of Helix can be a step in the right direction. But "view images inside the terminal" doesn't pass the smell test. The mindset of displaying images inside of a terminal window and the macOS window decorations in the example screenshots, those two things together are part and parcel.
Loved helix and batteries included philosophy but was wishing for more batteries. Specifically the lack of a good diff viewer. Yes I can create a shortcut to lazygit but the way swapping between processes worked was buggy and uncomfortable.
And even though abstractly I like helix's keyboard model better than vim, I wish there was a way to just switch to vim mode because it is too ingrained.
Maybe this fork can address some of this either directly or by allowing plugins.
Similar for me. I understand the impetus to stick to only standard Language Server Protocol (LSP) features, but on the other hand support for what e.g. RustAnalyzer offers would be incredibly useful
for me.
Yeah I wondered this too! The website explains the features, but from what I can tell it's just the feature set of Helix. I'm sure there's a plan behind what the forker wants to do with the project, would be awesome if the website explained!
That said, fwiw, I haven't felt the need for anything on it and it feels "complete" to me as far as my daily use goes
Maintaining OSS is tough, do you know what the community has been wanting lately that it lacks? Maybe I'm an outlier user or I don't know what I don't know
I don’t use Helix myself, but I’ve tried it before.
I believe I’ve heard many users requesting a plug-in system (there were some plans for Scheme?), and that the devs themselves considered many features as more appropriate for plugins than first-party support (code folding and non-LSP snippets, if I recall correctly?). I don’t know how Helix developed the last couple of years, but if features like that didn’t materialize yet, that sounds like sufficient impetus for a fork to me.
I have been building a batteries-included vim-like editor for a couple of years. It all started as a series of streamings but I really like where it is right now.
It's a fascinating time to launch a new code editor. I haven't properly used one for months (except some small .env changes and the like). Even Zed seems to be moving away from the "editor" part, into Delta.
I've been building my own personal editor, borrowing some of the features I enjoyed in Helix and other editors - https://github.com/joefreeman/aether - being able to deeply customise has been satisfying.
Helix was originally meant to be a "batteries included" editor without any scripting/plugins. That PR intends to change this and so there is a bit of controversy around it. Overall it looks like the PR will eventually be merged.
The Mitos fork could have be made for totally unrelated reasons. This is really just my speculation.
Ok I'd like to bring up something a bit more bold/controversial: why are we building big TUIs at all? Like... ever? Isn't it pretty trivial to make your rust GUI native across the three major operating systems these days, or am I underestimating that?
I prefer a TUI to a heavy Electron app, don't get me wrong. But Helix (& Mitos!) seem like a baffling choice compared to Sublime Text. Not worse: I literally don't understand the appeal.
If I were to build an editor, I’d want the GUI platform-native so would probably go straight for Xcode and Swift.
If I had a strong aversion to Swift, I might consider a hybrid design where the UI is Swift and write a backend in a modern, fast language I prefer (Go/Rust/C# come to mind, but this isn’t a call-to-arms in the language wars). I believe this could be achieved since LSP works well as a backend server supplying IDE-level niceties, so I could keep most functionality implementations there. I’d have to have a strong reason though since Swift is a fine language, and AI does much of the writing now.
Then again, most devs live on a Mac and deploy to Linux, and are increasingly using Agents which may be better off cloud-hosted or at least sandboxed, so lightweight Swift UI and most logic in a headless cli app could be an interesting design choice.
But the important part to me would be low-bloat and native UI, and I’ve never found cross-platform UI frameworks to hold up in practice — even if only because different OSes necessarily have different ideas of idiomatic design, so you’d either be using least common denominator UI components that feel uncanny, or reimplementing the UI for each platform.
Have you found a language / framework combo that’s fast, fits into the OS well, and is _fun_ to write and use? Or is your idea that separate implementations are now so low cost — who cares — let the AI maintain them?
Legitimately asking in good faith, so please don’t interpret anything as snippy in there — it’s just my understanding of the state of the world. I’d genuinely love to learn about how cross-platform options have expanded if I’m missing something!
> lightweight Swift UI and most logic in a headless cli app could be an interesting design choice
With absolutely no hard data to back this claim, my instinct is that a library would be even better. Anything you can manage to fit into a library can be much more easily tested, and then you can define whatever frontends you want (CLI, SwiftUI, etc.) that wrap it, and even leave the door open for people to implement whatever UI they might want.
I think you're underestimating this. I released a GUI app in Rust earlier this year, and I already feel like it was a headache because there was pretty much no way to avoid dynamically linking a bunch of stuff, at which point any confidence of it working across various distros went out the window, so I had to settle for an AppImage as the only binary that I distributed. I wasn't even trying to target Windows or MacOS but I have to assume that would complicate things at least as much.
I'm not saying it's insurmountable, but I don't think it's accurate to call it "trivial". There are comments on this thread mentioning that Helix hasn't released in a while but that it's relatively straightforward to build from source; I'm not confident that would be easy to preserve for a full GUI.
Pardon the snark, but they literally wrote an article about giving up on code reviews because they push 35k _commits_, not even lines of code (I’m assuming — they say “changes,” which I’d assume are commits), and we’re bottlenecked on reviews.
Instead, they claim to just review the _intent_ of the PR and presume correctness will be caught by more AI.
Seems insane to me, but hey, what do I know. I suppose you could argue with bugs so easily fixable now, it’s not worth spending the traditional cost of prevention. I just can’t imagine what that many changes could be doing...
Really? What did you not like about Helix that you get from Nano? (No judgement, I'm just curious!)
I don't have anything against Nano, but for something I use every day, I'd really miss go-to-definition, and being able to jump between sections of text quickly.
It’s too bad nano doesn’t support LSP [1], it makes it trivial to get IDE-level support for almost all programming languages with one simple JSON-RPC integration.
An articulated rationale for why a fork would go a long way for awareness of why an existing user of Helix might consider to use Mitos instead (or not) really needs to be the first thing we see on the front page of the site for Mitos.
One thing that really sticks out to me and gives me a feeling I won't consider to use Mitos, is the presentation further down on Mitos' front page of rendering of image files inside the terminal emulator. I rather that an image viewing program be opened, maybe called with options to not display interface widgets, and to be displayed in a new window tab. I use i3 or Sway, so I already have macros that do just this, and I don't fail to appreciate that others have this luxury (or not).
Alternative branches, or even forks like this are a good thing. Sometimes these help reach new consensus and merge back into the original project making the new project stronger, provided the original reason for a fork wasn't really issues of conflicting personalities.
I think a fork of Helix can be a step in the right direction. But "view images inside the terminal" doesn't pass the smell test. The mindset of displaying images inside of a terminal window and the macOS window decorations in the example screenshots, those two things together are part and parcel.
Loved helix and batteries included philosophy but was wishing for more batteries. Specifically the lack of a good diff viewer. Yes I can create a shortcut to lazygit but the way swapping between processes worked was buggy and uncomfortable.
And even though abstractly I like helix's keyboard model better than vim, I wish there was a way to just switch to vim mode because it is too ingrained.
Maybe this fork can address some of this either directly or by allowing plugins.
Similar for me. I understand the impetus to stick to only standard Language Server Protocol (LSP) features, but on the other hand support for what e.g. RustAnalyzer offers would be incredibly useful for me.
This looks nice, though I already use and like Helix. What is the motivation behind the fork?
Yeah I wondered this too! The website explains the features, but from what I can tell it's just the feature set of Helix. I'm sure there's a plan behind what the forker wants to do with the project, would be awesome if the website explained!
Helix has not seen any release in a while and PRs stack.
Oh interesting, I went to look more after you said that and noticed the lack of activity indeed, there's even a discussion about it: https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/discussions/16261
That said, fwiw, I haven't felt the need for anything on it and it feels "complete" to me as far as my daily use goes
Maintaining OSS is tough, do you know what the community has been wanting lately that it lacks? Maybe I'm an outlier user or I don't know what I don't know
I don’t use Helix myself, but I’ve tried it before.
I believe I’ve heard many users requesting a plug-in system (there were some plans for Scheme?), and that the devs themselves considered many features as more appropriate for plugins than first-party support (code folding and non-LSP snippets, if I recall correctly?). I don’t know how Helix developed the last couple of years, but if features like that didn’t materialize yet, that sounds like sufficient impetus for a fork to me.
fwiw it’s incredibly easy to build from master
I found this post on reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1wpt22a/mitos_...
I have been building a batteries-included vim-like editor for a couple of years. It all started as a series of streamings but I really like where it is right now.
https://youtu.be/eX1ZhXY0VZU?si=hUufOFS5ifTGeh-g
If you're looking for something like that I'd love if you could take it for a spin:
https://getred.dev
I'm on my phone so I did not try it yet, but I find your use of red color way too agressive on the front page.
It bothers me too, I might make it a bit less aggressive. Thanks for taking the time!
This looks very cool - would be cool if could use our claude logins aswell as codex...
Been working on a similar idea of an in-terminal IDE with more and more batteries included
https://github.com/paradise-runner/toast
The logo looks like Mixtral's, the name sounds like Anthropic's Mithos..
It's a fascinating time to launch a new code editor. I haven't properly used one for months (except some small .env changes and the like). Even Zed seems to be moving away from the "editor" part, into Delta.
In the grim dark future, there is no longer need for a text editor
Prompt viewer D:
I've been building my own personal editor, borrowing some of the features I enjoyed in Helix and other editors - https://github.com/joefreeman/aether - being able to deeply customise has been satisfying.
Good to know. It looks nice. Any plans for Win version?
Could try the Linux version in WSLg
I will. Thanks.
What does it do differently from Helix?
Commenting as an outsider to both projects, one possible motivation to fork Helix might be this PR:
https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/pull/8675
Helix was originally meant to be a "batteries included" editor without any scripting/plugins. That PR intends to change this and so there is a bit of controversy around it. Overall it looks like the PR will eventually be merged.
The Mitos fork could have be made for totally unrelated reasons. This is really just my speculation.
Treesitter grammar for each language does not count as plugin? I think I had seen some dynamic libs when I tried to build it…
From the commit history it rather looks like an ai agent speed run of a single guy frustrated about this not moving fast enough.
helix has a plugin system in the works, but unsure when it’ll actually land. lots of folks are already daily driving it, myself included.
I understand its not cool to not be fluent in Vim, but all I want is a better version of `micro`. is it possible to setup Mitos like that?
last time i looked at it i couldn’t figure out what the difference was or why anyone would choose this over helix.
Ok I'd like to bring up something a bit more bold/controversial: why are we building big TUIs at all? Like... ever? Isn't it pretty trivial to make your rust GUI native across the three major operating systems these days, or am I underestimating that?
I prefer a TUI to a heavy Electron app, don't get me wrong. But Helix (& Mitos!) seem like a baffling choice compared to Sublime Text. Not worse: I literally don't understand the appeal.
How would you do it? Honestly curious?
If I were to build an editor, I’d want the GUI platform-native so would probably go straight for Xcode and Swift.
If I had a strong aversion to Swift, I might consider a hybrid design where the UI is Swift and write a backend in a modern, fast language I prefer (Go/Rust/C# come to mind, but this isn’t a call-to-arms in the language wars). I believe this could be achieved since LSP works well as a backend server supplying IDE-level niceties, so I could keep most functionality implementations there. I’d have to have a strong reason though since Swift is a fine language, and AI does much of the writing now.
Then again, most devs live on a Mac and deploy to Linux, and are increasingly using Agents which may be better off cloud-hosted or at least sandboxed, so lightweight Swift UI and most logic in a headless cli app could be an interesting design choice.
But the important part to me would be low-bloat and native UI, and I’ve never found cross-platform UI frameworks to hold up in practice — even if only because different OSes necessarily have different ideas of idiomatic design, so you’d either be using least common denominator UI components that feel uncanny, or reimplementing the UI for each platform.
Have you found a language / framework combo that’s fast, fits into the OS well, and is _fun_ to write and use? Or is your idea that separate implementations are now so low cost — who cares — let the AI maintain them?
Legitimately asking in good faith, so please don’t interpret anything as snippy in there — it’s just my understanding of the state of the world. I’d genuinely love to learn about how cross-platform options have expanded if I’m missing something!
> lightweight Swift UI and most logic in a headless cli app could be an interesting design choice
With absolutely no hard data to back this claim, my instinct is that a library would be even better. Anything you can manage to fit into a library can be much more easily tested, and then you can define whatever frontends you want (CLI, SwiftUI, etc.) that wrap it, and even leave the door open for people to implement whatever UI they might want.
I think you're underestimating this. I released a GUI app in Rust earlier this year, and I already feel like it was a headache because there was pretty much no way to avoid dynamically linking a bunch of stuff, at which point any confidence of it working across various distros went out the window, so I had to settle for an AppImage as the only binary that I distributed. I wasn't even trying to target Windows or MacOS but I have to assume that would complicate things at least as much.
I'm not saying it's insurmountable, but I don't think it's accurate to call it "trivial". There are comments on this thread mentioning that Helix hasn't released in a while but that it's relatively straightforward to build from source; I'm not confident that would be easy to preserve for a full GUI.
Fuck it all, I went back to nano. > nano -lmx0 is good enough.
I don't even use an editor anymore. Just sed the source files directly via my agent.
I don't even sed anymore. I go directly to ed while characters stream out of an llm
I don't even read code anymore. I just have my agent deploy directly to production.
I don't even have a prod environment anymore. I route any incoming traffic directly to my LLM on Openrouter and let it answer.
I don't even deploy anymore, I just proxy the user credit card directly to my API Key on someone else's provider
This is the way!
Oh, you work at Anthropic?
Pardon the snark, but they literally wrote an article about giving up on code reviews because they push 35k _commits_, not even lines of code (I’m assuming — they say “changes,” which I’d assume are commits), and we’re bottlenecked on reviews.
Instead, they claim to just review the _intent_ of the PR and presume correctness will be caught by more AI.
Seems insane to me, but hey, what do I know. I suppose you could argue with bugs so easily fixable now, it’s not worth spending the traditional cost of prevention. I just can’t imagine what that many changes could be doing...
Source: https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/redesigning-source-con... (presumably also written by an AI)
Sounds like we need a sequel to https://xkcd.com/378/
Really? What did you not like about Helix that you get from Nano? (No judgement, I'm just curious!)
I don't have anything against Nano, but for something I use every day, I'd really miss go-to-definition, and being able to jump between sections of text quickly.
It’s too bad nano doesn’t support LSP [1], it makes it trivial to get IDE-level support for almost all programming languages with one simple JSON-RPC integration.
1: https://microsoft.github.io/language-server-protocol/
Thanks for sharing those options!