One thing I sort of wished was touched on a little more: the concept of country is surprisingly modern. Modern international relations theory tends to trace the concept back to the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, but honestly, even that is really too early.
The map shown of 14th century Europe is doing better than most in that recognizes that several borders (but still too few) are fuzzy rather than lines on a map. The other problem you run into is that, in most non-state societies (in the Weberian sense of "monopoly on the legitimate use of force"), political linkages tend to be fragile and based more on personal ties so that a Big Man's successor may well repudiate the alliances and homages the Big Man makes. Which makes it hard to draw maps, because is Burgundy a part of France? The Duke of Burgundy is as often as not fighting the French king.
This is what makes adjudicating the "oldest continuous republic" hard, because at what point do we say that the homages San Marino is paying stops counting as being part of that country?
Westphalia did two big things in my view… 1. is permanent diplomacy and 2. it made sure that things were on a secular not papal foundation. It’s a big deal but to claim that countries weren’t a thing before it is a bit of an overstatement.
Coincidentally, I am visiting southern CA for Hackaday Supercon in Pasadena and went to the Huntington today. It's incredible! I would go all the time if I lived here.
Yup, the day ticket can feel a bit expensive, but the membership is pretty cheap in comparison. Both definitely worth it (and I think you can chip in the value of your day ticket towards a membership)
This was a delightful read! I found the section on San Marino's political adventures in the 20th century particularly amusing; they did a mini version of everything else that was going on the world in the 20th century, but it turns out that when you're a small peaceful moderate country, it's hard for things to get too too out of hand at any given moment. Like yeah sure they had a Fascist period followed immediately by a Communist period, but apparently in the mildest way imaginable, and it's been mildly moderate ever since.
The only reason why these states exist is because of tax evasion methods used by business people in countries around them.
For example in Andorra you can rent an apartment for 100k a year and move your entire online business to the country and pay virtually no taxes at all.
...did you read the article? San Marino is a bunch of random villages in the Italian countryside, indistinguishable from the Italian side except in the one pretty spot that gets all the tourists, and the one larger town near Rimini that has all the tax free shops etc. No gates, no Florida.
> Their populations are content, their governments are highly functional, their economies hum along, and nothing of note has happened in any of them since World War II.
"in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
(Harry Lime in the movie "The Third Man")
In reality, of course, they produce a great deal more than cuckoo clocks; one of the most competitive pharmaceutical industries in the world, industrial chemicals, defence technology, agriculture, financial services, food processing, etc - up to a trillion or so per annum IIRC.
The cuckoo clock was intended to be a contemporary reference to the Renaissance period, not an exhaustive assessment of what Switzerland contributed to the present day.
and nothing of note has happened in any of them since World War II.
the timeframe does not appear to be pinned to the Renaissance period. Further, the quote I replied to was from The Third Man a movie made and released in 1949 that was set in post world war II Vienna.
Further again, that quote appears to address present era Switzerland 500 years after the infamous time of the House of Borgia.
1/ The referenced quote in the parent comment is clear (while false - more below) to everybody but you. Being taken from a movie, it cannot be germane to the present flow of comments, you claim to reply to. Rather the quote reads: "By the time in Italy [this], in Switzerland [that]."
2/ The OP is about San Marino; the quoted excerpt is referencing the European city states of San Marino, Liechtenstein, Monaco, and Andorra; hence the flow of comments you point at is not concerned with Switzerland per se.
3/ The referenced quote is nevertheless false, because cuckoo clocks were invented in the Dresden in early 1600s; only popular culture associate them to Switzerland.
I would be wary of drawing big conclusions from the example of countries like these. The kind of boredom enjoyed in San Marino and Liechtenstein is probably not available to bigger countries.
One thing I sort of wished was touched on a little more: the concept of country is surprisingly modern. Modern international relations theory tends to trace the concept back to the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, but honestly, even that is really too early.
The map shown of 14th century Europe is doing better than most in that recognizes that several borders (but still too few) are fuzzy rather than lines on a map. The other problem you run into is that, in most non-state societies (in the Weberian sense of "monopoly on the legitimate use of force"), political linkages tend to be fragile and based more on personal ties so that a Big Man's successor may well repudiate the alliances and homages the Big Man makes. Which makes it hard to draw maps, because is Burgundy a part of France? The Duke of Burgundy is as often as not fighting the French king.
This is what makes adjudicating the "oldest continuous republic" hard, because at what point do we say that the homages San Marino is paying stops counting as being part of that country?
Westphalia did two big things in my view… 1. is permanent diplomacy and 2. it made sure that things were on a secular not papal foundation. It’s a big deal but to claim that countries weren’t a thing before it is a bit of an overstatement.
For a moment I thought it was about the city/neighborhood in LA, where The Huntington Library is (highly recommend to visit this place)
Coincidentally, I am visiting southern CA for Hackaday Supercon in Pasadena and went to the Huntington today. It's incredible! I would go all the time if I lived here.
Yup, the day ticket can feel a bit expensive, but the membership is pretty cheap in comparison. Both definitely worth it (and I think you can chip in the value of your day ticket towards a membership)
Fascinating read, especially about how San Marino stayed independent, love this writer's work.
“Rundown” isn’t the best definition for Rimini, though.
This was a delightful read! I found the section on San Marino's political adventures in the 20th century particularly amusing; they did a mini version of everything else that was going on the world in the 20th century, but it turns out that when you're a small peaceful moderate country, it's hard for things to get too too out of hand at any given moment. Like yeah sure they had a Fascist period followed immediately by a Communist period, but apparently in the mildest way imaginable, and it's been mildly moderate ever since.
The only reason why these states exist is because of tax evasion methods used by business people in countries around them. For example in Andorra you can rent an apartment for 100k a year and move your entire online business to the country and pay virtually no taxes at all.
This seems like one of those Florida retirement communities that are gated. Except it’s in Italy. Similar dynamic.
...did you read the article? San Marino is a bunch of random villages in the Italian countryside, indistinguishable from the Italian side except in the one pretty spot that gets all the tourists, and the one larger town near Rimini that has all the tax free shops etc. No gates, no Florida.
> Their populations are content, their governments are highly functional, their economies hum along, and nothing of note has happened in any of them since World War II.
Another reminder that boring is good.
I've heard that kind of description used for Switzerland as well. Accurate?
"in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." (Harry Lime in the movie "The Third Man")
Cute.
In reality, of course, they produce a great deal more than cuckoo clocks; one of the most competitive pharmaceutical industries in the world, industrial chemicals, defence technology, agriculture, financial services, food processing, etc - up to a trillion or so per annum IIRC.
The cuckoo clock was intended to be a contemporary reference to the Renaissance period, not an exhaustive assessment of what Switzerland contributed to the present day.
In the flow of comments;
the timeframe does not appear to be pinned to the Renaissance period. Further, the quote I replied to was from The Third Man a movie made and released in 1949 that was set in post world war II Vienna.
Further again, that quote appears to address present era Switzerland 500 years after the infamous time of the House of Borgia.
1/ The referenced quote in the parent comment is clear (while false - more below) to everybody but you. Being taken from a movie, it cannot be germane to the present flow of comments, you claim to reply to. Rather the quote reads: "By the time in Italy [this], in Switzerland [that]."
2/ The OP is about San Marino; the quoted excerpt is referencing the European city states of San Marino, Liechtenstein, Monaco, and Andorra; hence the flow of comments you point at is not concerned with Switzerland per se.
3/ The referenced quote is nevertheless false, because cuckoo clocks were invented in the Dresden in early 1600s; only popular culture associate them to Switzerland.
I would be wary of drawing big conclusions from the example of countries like these. The kind of boredom enjoyed in San Marino and Liechtenstein is probably not available to bigger countries.
would be very interesting to see you spend 6 months in india and tour kashmir, kerala, north east india, west, cities, rural areas etc.