Ask HN: Are you ok?
My Australian friend just linked this to me and I thought it would be good question to ask HN. IME HN and perhaps software development in general contains a lot of at-risk personalities in stressful work environments that don't get asked this question enough. I think you are all interesting, intelligent, hard-working people and mental health is unfortunately still stigmatised in the tech community. Feel free to ask any coworkers today who have been struggling as well.
I recently experienced months of sleeping problems. Where I wouldn't sleep for days. Or would sleep a few hours. I would be exhausted and my head would hit the pillow and BAM adrenaline and I can hear my heart pounding and I'm awake. It got so bad I would go into the basement and destroy a wall that I kept repairing. I would cry in frustration. I started to have suicidal thoughts. It was harming my marriage and made me a crappy father.
I've seen a psychologist before for other things but there's just something about me that makes me stubborn. I should have seen one again but I never got around to it. I kept self-justifying that "new idea X" would be what fixes the problem.
I think the issue was subconscious because if you asked, I couldn't tell you what was bothering me. But I think it might be about being this pillar of my family, the sole breadwinner, and had a toddler and a baby and a mortgage and a new remote job all within 2 years. Everything piles on and there's a ton of good reasons to feel anxiety.
Anyways, you know what ended up changing everything and making me sleep like a baby? World of Warcraft Classic. I used to never find time for gaming. Or games would never keep my attention. I would always wander off to the huge list of things I need to be doing to be a good worker, dad, housekeeper, husband. But I got into WoW for chuckles and got hooked on having 3 hours a night to just do stupid pointless stuff in a fantasy world. And now falling asleep feels so different. My brain is relaxed, replaying some of the moments from the video game in my daydreaming imagination. And before I know it, I wake up rested and energized and actually looking forward to experiencing the next day.
Not for anything because my situation is completely different. But I went through a difficult period too. And I actually realised I had stopped doing any kind of recreation at all.
It sounds crazy but learning how to do nothing again is really hard. I couldn't actually game at all. I tried but I felt like I was doing a shift. So I started with driving and listening to soccer on the radio (something I hadn't been actively interested in for decades)...it is totally pointless. And now, finally, I have started to game occasionally too.
No, it still isn't quite the same as when I was a kid. I can still remember playing Dungeon Keeper and Theme Hospital/Park when they first came out (I even remember purchasing DK)...nothing can compare. And I can't play FPS anymore. But yes, it is very easy to forget about recreation and even feel guilty for doing it...but it is valuable.
Exercise can be very effective too. I have tried meditation repeatedly (srs, like six or seven periods over about a decade) it just doesn't work for me. But exercise is a way to stay active and bring down your everyday level of anxiety (although I have never got to the point where meditation becomes bearable).
Reading can also be very effective if you are already feeling anxious (although I understand it isn't for everyone). But reading with purpose can be self-defeating. Worrying about remembering or all the other stuff that goes along with reading job-related stuff can be really troublesome.
Hopefully, this will all help someone though. I wish someone told me ten years ago that it was okay to do something that had no meaning or point. Christopher Robin was right.
BTW, when I had a bad anxiety problem, what really worked for me is walking. Really long walks, two hours minimum just wandering around the city. Three or four hours were better. The shitty feeling really subsided. I've taken up audiobooks, which incidentally jacked up my books-read numbers a lot (household chores are also much more engaging for the brain now).
Dunno about exercise, as I couldn't do intensive exercise then, and light didn't work as well, even if prolonged.
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I'll also back the others on the topic of meditation in that it should show at least some result. I suspect, though, that you might've tried meditation with some spiritual flavor or something oriented purely towards the awareness and self-control aspect. Personally I've come to meditation from the body angle instead, and that's when it clicked for me. I detailed the workings here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20960513
One point of meditation is that you aren't really ‘doing nothing’: the brain still needs to be occupied at first—but the attention is redirected from whatever it's hung up on at the moment, to breathing deeply and listening to the body, and the guide's voice also helps. This breaks the loop of anxiety and physical tenseness, which then lets you set the mind loose. Frankly this sounds like it should work for your exact case.
I believe you tried meditation but I don’t buy the “it doesn’t work for me”
That’s like saying exercise doesn’t work for you.
Maybe you are going too hard too fast and getting injured or any number of things that make it difficult.
But meditation works, even if it’s (like exercise) a difficult habit to pick up.
No. Meditation does not "work for everyone" no matter how hard you no-true-scotsman it and I'm sick and tired of reading this.
Source: Dad was massively into all that woo, spent my whole teens trying, even spent a week at an ashram in India. No, meditation is not for everyone.
IMO ‘woo’ and ‘ashram’ is exactly the wrong way to go about mediation, for westerners. I'm automatically revolted by most kinds of spiritual stuff, but people I respect kept saying meditation helps to control the brain's attempts to wind itself up with drama. So finally I found the app ‘Headspace’ where a guy mumbles into my ear, with zero spiritual load and no cheesy music. What it does for me is I relax muscles including those I don't even feel otherwise, and which are all constantly tense due to bad posture. Only then, the mind calms down―tenseness and anxiety are normally in a feedback loop, and I have to break it. Can't relax as deep and fast without the mumble―takes three times as long and still not the same.
Also I don't think that in the teens you feel your bodily and mental states as acutely, at least I didn't until almost thirty―because in youth you're more active and feel alright most of the time. Took me several years of paying attention to my body and mood (before taking up meditation), to learn to recognize when I'm getting worked up for no reason. So yeah, in this sense it's probably not for everyone.
I forget what they're called, but the Headspace things where someone talks about a sleepy village or laundromat they're wandering through are incredible. They create this strong sense of nostalgia and comfiness for some long lost childhood memories I don't think actually exist.
Ooh, I should look into that, as an aficionado of induced senses and cozy mental states (without drugs or voodoo).
Apparently they also have ‘sleep music’ and soundscapes with names that sound rather newagey and are probably of the sort that never attracted me. Now, oldschool dub music, of the 70s' kind—that worked wonderfully both at home and for subway dozing. Dub is so completely non-aggressive and non-busy that I don't get such warm feeling from anything else. I remember lying in bed and suddenly wondering why my thoughts follow a weird rhythm—turned out it was the bass in a track that got mixed in the fading awareness.
Bill Laswell's mixes are my favorite: https://billlaswell.bandcamp.com/album/trojan-dub-massive-vo...
30 minutes of cardio everyday isn’t for everyone. But anyone who does it will have adaptations as a result.
All 30 minutes of attempted meditation per day does for me is dramatically increases my desire to punch someone. If that counts as an adaptation then sure.
I can recommend you to start with 5 minutes (set a timer), increase to 10. After some practice you can omit the timer, but it really helps you getting started.
Meditation is different because it requires sitting still and doing nothing for a period of time. I have probably gone months without doing this to any degree. I don't sleep without listening to something. I can rarely sit down and just watch TV. Etc.
I am fairly sure the issue isn't medical: I can code, drive, and read for hours at a time without losing focus. But meditation is still torture (as is having to sit down and watch TV). I have tried several times, I have done it every day for up to two or three weeks (willpower is not really an issue) but every time, after a while, I ended up feeling more trepidation and anxiety about doing it.
In addition though, I think there are good reasons to prefer exercise in certain cases (YMMV, and this is just my experience):
Stressing your cardiovascular system mimics the physical effect of a panic attack. And part of the reason that panic attacks occur is because something is wrong with the link between the physical and mental parts of the system. You can't solve it with looking at one side alone but it is useful to experience the physical sensation of panic without the mental side (hopefully, it can set things off). I don't meditation is as effective on the physical side, it may be effective on the mental side but not for me.
This is not going to be relevant for 95% of people. But it has been my experience of it. I also think it is pretty unwise to say it should work for everyone. If you get the impression that should work for everyone, and then you try and it doesn't work...you feel terrible (if you have a disorder, it is worse...you might feel shame). Unf, in my experience, this is fairly common within psychology too which has endless "universal"-sounding solutions with weak effect. It just isn't that simple. Try stuff. See what works.
Again, hopefully this will help someone. The number of times that I have tried meditation should suggest that I was convinced, past the point of logic, that I was the issue...not meditation...unsurprisingly, that belief elicited little progress. It makes more sense to just do what works.
I am not saying meditation works for everyone. However, I would suggest that if you decide to give meditation another shot, try to approach it differently. You say that "it requires sitting still and doing nothing for a period of time" - I don't understand it that way, at least if we talk about mindfulness meditation. I am no expert but I would say the point is non-judgemental observation of what occurs in your mind. If what occurs in your mind is anxiety or restlessness, try to observe it without trying to control it or escape it and see what happens. You might be surprised. If you do not approach it with some preconceptions of what it "should" do and just try to accept what comes, it might make you feel better - it seems like a paradox but human psyche sometime works in surprising ways. BTW, that is also why methods like paradoxical intention (Viktor Frankl) work - when you feel anxiety attack coming, you don't try to calm yourself down. You try to be even more anxious... and surprisingly, anxiety subsides.
With all due respect your exact same line of reasoning would work for exercising.
Why would it be unwise to think it works for everyone? Does doing sit-ups make everyone’s core stronger? Does doing squats make everyone’s legs stronger?
I have no idea what you were doing when you were meditating, but having anxiety about it is certainly not proof that it doesn’t work.
Maybe you didn’t have good guidance? Maybe you were having some benefit you didn’t notice or measure?
Preferring exercise over meditation doesn’t really make any sense? Exercise and meditation do not serve the same purpose. It would be best to do both with a good plan, it’s essentially impossible to do zero of either of them.
If someone told me exercise didn’t work for them, I’d simply say the same as I would to you, you must be doing it wrong (for your situation), or it is working, and it’s not at a fast enough pace for your liking.
What I would guess is going on would be loosely similar to someone who starts to exercise and does it with bad form and not enough conditioning for the exercises they try. So they get hurt or too sore and just think it won’t work.
The scientific research supporting exercise is vastly stronger than the scientific research supporting meditation. The proven benefits of exercise are in order of magnitude different than the benefits of meditation.
I had 3 weeks during this summer when I was with my 5yo at my parents house. My parents took care of their grandchild and he was happy to just spend time with them. I didn't have to cook, take care of groceries or do any house chores that normally fill my day up. I could just work, so I did, for 10-12h a day (usually it's about 7h).
I had trouble with sleeping basically from the day one. I was constantly thinking about one more optimisation or bug fix I can apply to make the feature I'm working on better. I lost interest in my normal evening activities (movies, books, games). I had been looking forward to spending these 3 summer weeks at my parents' for a few months before, but I made it quite stressful, by my own wish.
I learnt that taking care of the kids and doing the house chores is something I really need to keep myself sane. Doing it I often wait for the evening, when I can just chill out - but it's hard to relax if you don't do anything else than hitting keyboard for the whole day.
what i sense here, and i felt that too, is needing an excuse to relax. like being able to tell my boss: i'd love to work more but i have to take care of the kids. once you realize what is going on you can work with that more constructively, at which point you'll be able to relax without needing an activity that you didn't choose yourself. you can and should of course continue these chores, but those too you'll be able to do with more deliberation and awareness of what benefits they give you.
There's something deeper here that runs counter to the generally accepted idea that lights from screens at night disrupts the body's circadian rhythm and keeps us awake. Anecdotally I know that I can go from "can't sleep; thinking about everything I have to do tomorrow" to asleep in 10 mins opening my phone and browsing reddit - in dark mode no less, makes me feel better about doing it - and reading mindlessly. Emphasis on mindlessly.
It's important to separate the effects of the light from the screen, and the information the mind is getting through the screen.
I've experimented a bit with blue blocker glasses, and I think they do help a little (perhaps placebo effect is playing a role, but whatever works). But, as you suggest, it is far more important for me to avoid thought provoking material on the screen before bed, than to avoid the screen wholesale.
In the past I read something interesting about falling asleep. We all know how smoking, looking at a screen, eating sugar, etc... are all pretty bad to fall asleep, but actually what's helping the most isn't not doing theses things, it's the routine that you have before sleeping. Someone that does theses things every night, will have a much harder time to go to sleep if he doesn't do theses. Ideally it would be to just suck it up until you build an healthier routine I guess, but if your sleep is fine, why bother really? Just keep the routine that works for you.
I like this idea a lot. I don't really struggle with sleep, I don't get enough, but it's because I'm desperate to enjoy the free time I'm left with after work and responsibilities and ended up getting to bed late.
> accepted idea that lights from screens at night disrupts the body's circadian rhythm and keeps us awake.
Seems like it's true, 'cause after couple of months living with "Night mode" on all my devices I sleep just fine. Also stopped to read/watch anything without good light.
Glad you found a solution.
A very dear friend committed suicide after a few weeks of sleeplessness. I can't say it was the sole cause, but I don't believe he would have done that had he been sleeping more.
Lack of sleep is dangerous to the human brain. Anyone that experiences this should seek help immediately.
My solution to a racing mind: solitaire. I play for 10 minutes and I'm totally groggy and fall asleep very quickly.
Which surely says a lot of the game... ;)
I'm so glad you have found a calming outlet. I personally find mind-numbingly boring games like color matching or just silly dress-up competition phone games really calming.
However, I would still strongly suggest seeing a therapist, or exploring online therapy tools. Escaping with video games is great supplement to a stress-management , and for short term comforts but a strong support system(recognizing and acknowledging stressors, discussing solutions with your partner and family, having an outlet to vent with a professional, and emotional tools for overall resilience improvement) should be your overall goal(and everyones goal).
Here are some resources I've identified for my affinity network at my work, but I think really should be around spread for everyone.
Mental Health is super important. "We all experience different levels of mental health throughout our lives. In fact, half of us will deal with some type of mental health challenge over the course of our lifetime." https://www.eachmindmatters.org/mental-health/
Consider taking mental health breaks and investing time into self-care, because your family and community cares about your well-being too and your contributions are going to be much greater with improved mental health: https://www.workplacestrategiesformentalhealth.com/newslette...
Explore utilizing mental health apps, like a cognitive behavior diary, meditation, or mood tracker to identify and improved harmful thinking patterns: https://adaa.org/finding-help/mobile-apps https://www.workplacestrategiesformentalhealth.com/employee-...
Learn about the signs for suicide risk (it is Suicide Awareness Week! And Tuesday was world suicide prevention awareness day) https://www.suicideispreventable.org/
Quirk is no longer free :(
What's Quirk? I don't see it mentioned in the previous comment or in the links (maybe it was edited).
It's a CBT journal phone app that debuted here a few months ago.
For others reading this thread with sleep struggles, I highly recommend the book "The Sleep Book" by Meadows.
It solved my insomnia where nothing (black out curtains, eye masks, ear plugs, sleeping pills, room temperature, CBT, etc) did.
It's based on the premise that anxious thoughts about falling asleep make our brain scared of danger and our brain doesn't want to fall asleep when we could be in danger. So it has techniques for allowing those anxious thoughts to relax, and then your brain feels it's safe, and then you fall asleep.
Maybe thats why babies fall sleep easily when you hold/cuddle them... their brain sub-consciously may be telling them its safe.
You'd be surprised how often I can't sleep, get up, play some World of Warships (usually 1-2 matches) and then go to sleep within 20 minutes...
There's probably something about a context switch to something that isn't work at play... I may work with a friend to put together a small psychology experiment (he works at a medical school and has access to MRI machines).
Post results on HN or whatever niche blog that'll blow up in six months:)
I feel the exact same with DoTA 2. Makes me relaxed and helps me sleep. Especially the part with "replaying some of the moments from the video game in my daydreaming imagination". Resonates a lot.
You must be getting much less frustrating team mates than me haha :)
Every time I hit the Play button for ranked I feel such anxiety with Dota2. Normally I just play in the arcade, like 12v12 or some tower defense instead.
Something that worked for me was playing a TV show that I've watched to death (Archer, Community, Rick and Morty.) on my phone. Listening to a story that I already know occupies my brain just enough to let go of my own worries, and since I know the end of them all, I don't have the need to sit up and wonder what's going to happen next.
Kind of the opposite of what they recommend (completely silent and dark room) for so-called "sleep hygiene", which, when I practiced it, only served to keep me awake longer.
This is great! I wasn‘t sure if I should try it again after getting hooked in my teens. But now I think I will just sell it as a mental health exercise to myself :D
But jokes aside, good to hear you‘re feeling better. I can definitely see how going about the kind of low-effort but very satisfying and immersive activity that is WoW could be helpful for people having problems handling their stress levels.
All the best to you and your family!
Thanks! My wife hypothesizes that it's the act of getting my attention fixed to something dumb enough that my brain can "wind down" before bed. (not that WoW is dumb. But I spend my time fishing and taking photos)
Taking photos (with analog film actually) was a sort of an emotional outlet for me. It also made my wife say, either you quit doing that or we divorce. And I thought to myself, is this... a normal way to argue? I figured, no probably not. Slowly I started questioning more things. Many months of pain and suffering and finally we are divorced and I'm so relieved. What helps me sleep now is podcasts and making sure I've had at least some exercise during the day, like biking to work or long walks with the dog. The physical activity is especially important if I have a lot of troubles to worry about.
Good for you, that sounds like a pretty unreasonable ultimatum to give someone.
Like anything, it depends how much of an all-consuming obsession it was, and if it was the straw that broke the camel's back on top of other marital troubles.
Of course. I'm not trying to present a case here - I'm just describing what happened inside me.
i believe there is only one way to keep a marriage alive: you need to have a common goal, and wanting to work together to achieve that goal. while working on that goal you'll be able to compromise on other things. you can demonstrate for example how photography gives you the energy needed for that goal, or you find that photography gets on the way of your common goal and you'll reduce it or stop.
without a common goal you have no reason to compromise on anything and as a result every partner will just maximize for their own benefit.
I do the same, when it ramps up like that, I either do an audio book, or read a real book. It's just enough focus for me that my mind doesn't go wild but it's not stimulating enough to keep me awake as I slow down. (Stimulating as in a fast paced movie or video game). I just think about the story, and drift off as I slow down.
It's a major life win for me.
Glad you finally found a good solution, but I have to say that this is really worded like a bad old TV advertisement for WoW. :)
I can also whole-heartedly recommend the Nintendo Switch for busy people: The instant suspend/resume of any game mean that you can quite easily continue where you left off in seconds. It's hard to find time to game when we get older.
Another option for us phone-always-in-reach types is the idle/incremental games. (Not a plug, I just happen to be trying out Antimatter Dimensions for now.)
The usual setup has you co a bunch of clicking and watching whatever numbers grow, and soon enough tools to autoclick become available. I open it occasionally, see what's happened in the meantime, do a few actions, "Clear All" to empty the app list and away I go until hours/days later and I happen to think of it in slower moments.
No actual goal, just 'bigger'. Sometimes there's wired in challenges or harder achievements, sometimes not.
Often enough, I clear data and start from scratch if I feel like it.
Very calm, but feels like a game anyway.
I always clear my mind one way or others before go to bed otherwise I will fall asleep at 4am or later. For me, they key point is to make me think about thing that I don't really know, or happens slowly and has mini pauses. For example watching/hearing a professional DotA 2 match, or snooker match.
I am also struggling with sleep. Applying for jobs and starting a blood pressure medication flipped on my insomnia. It's been nearly a month of waking up three or four hours before I want to and it's driving me crazy. Does anyone have any tips for falling back to sleep?
It's the opposite for me. I recently took up gaming again and I'm finally into it as well. However, the anticipation and excitement is making it hard for me to go to bed/sleep.
Back in the day, when a buddy was into Warcraft he could fall asleep anytime he wanted during the day. “I have five minutes before the next meeting. Zzzzzz...” Not sure it was just three hours at night, though.
Kinda similar how where I am, draftee privates can sleep standing up, and sometimes with open eyes.
I think that in the coming years, science will show that play is an essential part of human well-being.
If I don't game for at least an hour every night there might not be any time for fun in the day due to life commitments and how "serious" things seem to be.
That's interesting because, after quitting WoW back in 2012 or so, a couple of years I started playing vanilla on a private server and now it's my go-to "down time" thing again. I'm currently kind of sad because my server shut down when Classic released (and I don't want to sign up to Classic for other reasons) and I'm missing my game. :/
That's psychologically fascinating, it's like your subconscious needed the escapism. You just needed something that wasn't day to day life for just a few hours a day. There's something in that, for sure.
I'm having the same feelings. I want also to try to have side hustles or play games, but I'm really too tired on evenings..I already wake up daily at 5.30/6, going to bed on 22
Freeciv has gotten me through many bouts of mental and physical health
Taking time for yourself is very important as a parent. Good for you!
A few months ago I read that the best way to relax for a programmer type of brain is actually video games.
That made me go out and buy an Xbox so I could play Doom and other mindless games to wind down.
Man, Doom 2016 is an astonishingly good video game. It's rare to find games that so thoroughly accomplish exactly what they set out to do. I finally got around to playing through it about a month ago and I'm very excited for Doom Eternal in November.
Second on gaming. I would add running/working out to the list too!
Checkout Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia, or CBT-I
Self hypnosis with video games?
Gaming's a good outlet for de-stressing, which is important in the evening. Add to that, I find that mentally challenging ones exhaust my mind more and improve my sleep onset latency even further.
While masturbation may help sleep I've found that pornography, particularly anything addicting like fetish varieties, will hurt sleep. Binging it especially. It messes with your dopamine levels. My sleep has immediately improved by cutting it out. Possibly my #1 rec after a) keeping a consistent wake time, and b) diet and exercise. I can only presume it's not often mentioned with regards to insomnia because of shame.
I'm shocked at how many people seem to be doing OK or have minor complaints.
For me, I've realized that if I have to do anything for 40+ hours a week on a schedule, after a couple of weeks, I'd prefer being dead.
I could be a professional ice cream taste tester or race car driver, and after about 3 weeks of showing up at a fixed time and putting in 8 hours, I'd still be ready to off myself again.
When I have week-long breaks from work (like holidays mixed with PTO), I regain the will to live and there's so much I want to do, and I'm so sad about how much time I've wasted. I start projects, I start forming relationships, I feel happiness. Then I go back to work, and the suicidal tendencies are way stronger than before I left.
The best way for me to survive seems to never allow myself time off of work, because I dare not remind myself of what a free life would be like, or I might not be able to endure my current circumstances for another day.
I just don't understand how people function as workers in society. I hope I can retire before this kills me.
The way you feel is normal. Please don't try to beat yourself into something you're not, or worse, feel guilty for not being able to. There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault."
Remember that the 40 hour work week was considered a victory for unions. Not as an "I should feel grateful that I have this", but as a sign that progress is possible, and class struggle is real.
Humans were not meant to live like this. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
Some humans like living like this.
They lack all imagination so they have nothing better to do anyway. They have no charisma or empathy so work is only the place for them to hang out with people. They hate people who thrive outside of work so they want everyone's life to be consumed by it.
|There's a line from a song I like that goes "This place is designed to kill us and make us think it's our fault."
What song ?
Not sure if citruscomputing is referring to this, but Death/Bad Girl from Thank You by Black Dresses has that lyric. It’s towards the end:
“i didn't even know what i was going thru
until like, a year ago
and now it's everything
this place is designed to kill us
and make us think it's our fault”
yeah it's that one :)
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22This+place+is+designed+to+kill+...
Linking to search engine results page is almost never helpful.
And almost always pedantic.
I also get the "waking up" feeling whenever I take more than a few days off, and going back to work feels like a death sentence (not in the judge-pounding-the-gavel sense, more in the it's-later-than-you-think sense).
I don't feel suicidal, but I do feel desperate to waste less of my priceless time on piling up the money so that I can survive and support a family in a society that seems engineered to trap me in this half-living state. Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains.
> Maybe I'm just weak, for not being willing to throw it all away and go live in a barrel up in the mountains.
It's unclear to me if this is a weakness or a strength. I don't know which way is up.
Are you a stronger person if you're willing to say fuck it and go do your own thing and not be concerned with things like health care and financial stability?
Or are you a stronger person by steadfastly holding your station at work, because you just barely have enough grit to tough it out?
I can't shake the feeling that making peace with this half-living state as a daily existence is either the greatest achievement or the biggest mistake. So I remain anxious about it and pretend I haven't committed either way, although my resume would show you that I've clearly opted for permanent half-living through continuous employment.
Maybe it's too much to think about and I should go back to fantasizing about a life worth living while another work day ticks by...
> I can't shake the feeling that making peace with this half-living state as a daily existence is either the greatest achievement or the biggest mistake.
This really concisely sums up a feeling I haven’t been able to put my finger on for the longest time, thank you.
The problem is you can't really choose. As someone with a spouse and kids and possibly other people depending on you (aka your income), the pressure to acquire a monthly payment is astounding. There really is no simple or quick way out of this rat race.
I'm trying so hard to get out. I'm single with no plan to have dependents, and a debt-free homeowner. I'm not in a relationship for obvious reasons, but if I was, I guess I'd be limited to FIRE people who don't want children, which isn't a very big pool.
According to the calculators, I still have to put in at least another 10 years and save aggressively before I can quit.
I don't think I'm gonna last that long, and if I do, I don't know if there'll be any of me left to enjoy it.
Is that for American retirement ?
I absolutely love a tiny island town called Bocas Del Torro, Panama , you can buy a decent house for 50-150K, they use the US dollar, their is a large active expat community. If you're ok with learning Spanish, I'd get the f out before you completely die.
My current plan is to hold this job for as long as I can, then I'm done ( I'm 40 for reference ) - Im going to live as long as the money lasts, have a good time of freedom, then it's goodbye.
Yeah it is, based on age and savings and one of those FIRE calculators, and predicted spending based on what I know like house maintenance, food, clothes, etc.
My Spanish is no bueno, but if my job was "learn Spanish", I don't think it'd be a huge problem.
Wouldn't you have to worry about political instability down in Panama? How would health care work? Can I return to the US if I leave? Do I have to give up US citizenship? Would Panama be ok with me working remotely?
There's gotta be some catch besides the choice of language.
The catch is spotty internet, spotty electricity, no running water ( running water on the main island everywhere else is rainwater collection ), and shitty doctors.
Healthcare is cash only, if you had a serious problem I would recommend going back to the US.
If you spend over 50K for a house you get dual citizenship, you don't give up your US citizenship ( I personally wouldn't move anywhere where you have to give up US citizenship ) , you still pay taxes on any money earned in the US.
It's not a perfect solution at all, you just have to figure out what you value the most.
I will say, I spent 6 months down there, and coming back was hell. Why do we live this way ? The natives their fish out of the ocean for their food, they don't have alarm clocks, they don't have _any_ paperwork, and there some of the happiest people I've ever met. I'd trade my material shit for their freedom most days.
As someone who is not depended on by anyone, I still have to acquire a monthly payment. I don't have a way out of the rat race either.
To be fair, there are plenty of destitute people with dependants. Yours can probably stand to lower their material standards
I can relate here, not sure if this is a reality for you but one thing that's helped me in this regard is negotiating 25hr/wk arrangements (accepting the pay cut). More flexibility, and if you're willing to burn the midnight oil once in a while you can bump your pay with a second (hopefully temporary!) gig.
How does that work in practice? What do you do? I can do just about any tech job, but every employer I've ever had is only interested in more than full time.
Maybe I've been unintentionally signalling that I'm capable of doing more and that's why I keep finding myself in this situation?
I'd be much happier if I had half the salary and somehow was able to work 2x12hr days instead of 5x8hr days, but I have no idea how to find employers that would agree with that. If you could get two people like me to do 2x12 at increased productivity during work hours with half the cost, you'd be coming out ahead, and you'd have more knowledge on tap in the organization.
Wish I had better suggestions, but for me it's been a word-of-mouth thing. Started with one person wanting to take me on but he "couldn't afford full-time pay"; he knew someone else who also needed help "here and there" so he helped me setup the initial arrangement to "make me whole", so to speak. A lot of luck and help to get it started.
In practice, it's fairly easy to keep all parties happy, though inevitably there will be stretches where one client really wants my time at the expense of my other projects. That's a fine line, but I haven't run into issues with it yet. I'm sure someday I'll over-commit myself and pay for it. Thus far the key has been responsiveness and "general availability", being open about when/how I can give them more focused attention for various projects. If I tell client A I have a big deadline coming up for client B or vice-versa, they're usually pretty understanding.
Best suggestion I could offer would be to talk to your friends/network and see if anyone "needs help here and there", to see if that opens a conversation towards an independent contractor arrangement.
I actually wrote a post about this just now, perhaps it can show you some possibilities! https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-a...
Have you considered remote work? Sounds like it would be right up your alley. (Good) remote companies work based on results, not "butts in seats," so you're free to work in whatever way works best for you. Of course, you still have to be productive.
I do remote now, but I don't think much of anything is based on "results". We still have mandatory morning meetings, many meetings through the week, lots of questions to be answered, bugs to be fixed, new features to be written, etc. Maybe I should stop working for startups?
If I had a clear goal of "get this done for the week" and that was it, why wouldn't I just do it as quickly as possible and then not do anything else? I just assumed this whole system of meetings/checkins/standups/code-reviews/slack-channels/etc was set up to avoid people doing that.
If anything, I feel more pressure to be readily available when I'm remote.
I agree. When you’re remote you want to show you are available to others. However you are allowed to take a day and do things you need to do, just keep your average hour session up and sleep well
How do you get health insurance in that situation, our of curiosity? All the employer-sponsored plans that I am familiar with require a minimum 30 hours / wk commitment.
Being an independent contractor is awesome (it's what I did for 100% of my income from 2004 until just a couple of months ago) but the health insurance situation and fear ended up killing it.
You can get health insurance without being employed! Or check out the “healthcare cost-sharing” groups like Sedera - it’s great for freelancers.
I felt like I should make a throwaway for this...
I'm the same. I'm in a loop where I hold a job for a few months (IT support, recently, contract work, so that they're okay with me leaving), 10 months or so at the most, and then quit so I have my spare time (and energy) back. The last two times, I went overseas with no plan past the first few days. The key thing about after-work and weekend hours is they aren't as useful for getting things done as weekday hours, because you're tired from work.
I just quit a pretty relaxed IT job to move from Australia to Scotland and live in a hostel.
I'm working on a really exciting coding project now, which I've had the idea for for about a year, but never had the time and energy for before. However, I will soon run out of money, and will need a job.
My plan was to do this for a short time, then apply for development jobs once I got a few things finished for my portfolio of work. But - and maybe this is one of the reasons I've held myself back for so long already - I've realized recently I'm too scared. I'm too scared of going back to 9 to 5, even if I'm out of IT and into development. I'm too scared of having someone else in control of how I spend my time. I'm scared of no longer having the chance to become someone exceptional, someone accomplished, someone unique. I'm scared of deciding on a life and then feeling stuck with it.
I'm considering trying something crazy and risky like acting, and coding on the side, or freelance, if I can manage that.
I am reminded of this passage from from A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick:
" The pain, the cut in his scalp, so unexpected and undeserved, had for some reason cleared away the cobwebs. It flashed on him instantly that he didn’t hate the kitchen cabinet: he hated his wife, his two daughters, his whole house, the back yard with its power mower, the garage, the radiant heating system, the front yard, the fence, the whole fucking place and everyone in it.
That life had been one without excitement, with no adventure. It had been too safe. All the elements that made it up were right there before his eyes, and nothing new could ever be expected. It was like, he had once thought, a little plastic boat that would sail on forever, without incident, until it finally sank, which would be a secret relief to all.
In this dark world where he now dwelt, ugly things and surprising things and once in a long while a tiny wondrous thing spilled out at him constantly; he could count on nothing."
A lot of my friends think this way but have changed their mindsets after getting stable jobs. One thing to note is that being exceptional and having a conventional life aren’t mutually exclusive. I used to think that I should always be moving from one startup to another in hopes of striking it rich. That is until I realized that a high paying software job might bring me more fulfillment than trying to start my own thing. I got tired of making things that didn’t pan out and wanted to be a part of something bigger, like a billion dollar company that’s been in business for more than 2 years total.
In making the switch I’ve learned that in my rebellion to live like everyone else in my field, living life the way I thought I wanted, I was ignoring the draw of happy normalcy I longed for in the present. I began to feel like I was chasing old goals to somehow please my former self and was guilting myself into thinking that any new goals that were compromises. I eventually got over it when I felt comfortable letting myself be happy in the present and less afraid of being able to reassess and change opinions I convinced myself were strong enough to hold me throughout my entire life.
Are you not saving at all and only working when you need money?
If you become unable to work, aren't you concerned that you'll become homeless or starve?
I feel the same as you but I think most people - including me - only justify working because it pays for what we want to do in life. The problem is not having enough time to do what we want in life, and negotiating less hours for less pay leaves us with less pay to do the things we want with the time we gain. It's a very fine line and it leaves everyone unfulfilled most of the time depending on your expectations. One approach is to try and find fulfillment in life with the time and money you have, and optimize for that.
Here comes an inverse take.
I used to believe what you believe... Before I started working. I couldn't imagine getting up before 9 every day and go to work, get home around 5, and repeat that every day.
Now that I've actually started working, I've completely changed. I took a week off to play Classic, but I was tearing my eyes out after three days, bored out of my mind. Now I feel like I can never see myself retiring without going completely insane.
I'm blown away by that. How did you make the transition? I didn't know anyone transitioned from how I think about life to how you now think about it.
I've got "love what you do and you'll never work a day in your life" filed somewhere between "atheism is just a phase" and "you'll want kids some day".
I'm starting to think I've missed some key developmental step.
Please understand that I am saying this in a compassionate, not a judgmental way. I think the key developmental step is to be able to get over yourself. I think this is a fundamental part in becoming a mature person. Many of us are forced through this step against our will and maybe without realizing it. Either through our job, or significant other, or kids, or some other experience that just overwhelms you. Apparently you are a tougher nut to crack than most people. It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly.
But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying)
It's funny because this is something religion usually stresses as well, so if you've avoided that you really might be missing out.
Thank you. You shouldn't be downvoted for saying this. I feel like you're saying what everyone else around me is thinking, but nobody has ever actually said.
I don't even know why you'd have to preface it by saying you mean to be compassionate. If your belief is the common one, why isn't that something people talk about? Is it that taboo? Shouldn't this death of self be celebrated if it's how were made to be?
Also, I think it's not a coincidence that my views on this definitely have not changed since I was a kid that hated school. I also rejected religion as a kid, and have continued to do so as an adult. Seems like you've got me figured out so far.
> It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly.
That is exactly what it feels like.
> But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place.
This is where you lost me. From my perspective, I would be a better person without the work obligation. I don't really know what I'd do without the obligation to work, but it would probably be more philanthropic than whatever my employer has me doing. Maybe I'd work on free software or anti-censorship? Or maybe I'd find joy in helping the disadvantaged in my local community? Or maybe I'd find virtue in starting a family? I have no idea, but I won't find out unless I luck into a few million bucks, because I can barely function while I'm employed. I can assure you I'd be a greater asset to society if I was unemployed than building commercial software.
> And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness.
I don't understand. Are you saying that I should accept some greater wisdom that giving my employer my best waking hours is helping the company, and that is somehow greater than helping myself? If that were the path to fulfillment in life, I should be taking a pay cut and working longer hours, which is quite the opposite of what I'm trying to do here. I'm trying to hoard as much as possible because I know society won't support me later if I become unable to support myself. Which incidentally, is also what I believe my employer is doing for himself.
I suspect society only works because your view is widespread, but I still can't understand it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I didn't mean that becoming selfless should make you more dedicated to your job. It might do that, depending on your job. But the main thing is that you can start to enjoy everything more, particularly whatever it is you really should be doing.
If you are in a place where you decide you should really be working, then you can work and not feel miserable about it. If you are in a place where you can live a fuller life without working a regular job, then you should do that instead. There's nothing wrong with helping people out at work, while getting money so that you can help yourself and your loved ones out at home. And you can enjoy both parts. As long as you aren't doing something you'd consider evil at your job. Then the same selflessness might help you to either quit or make change inside the company, without having so much fear about what will happen to you.
If you are so miserable while doing any kind of thing in a set way over any length of time, then you may find a soul-crushing moment where you have achieved permanent financial independence, are living your dream, and find this feeling overtaking you again. But this time there is no hope of an eventual way out.
Ok, that makes sense, but you make it sound like I know what I should be doing.
It's impossible to know what I should be doing in any kind of optimal way without knowing when I'm going to die.
If I'm going to die next year, I'd be pretty upset that I didn't quit my job today.
If I'm going to die far in the future, then I'm going to die homeless if I quit my job today, because I don't think I'd be ever be able to force myself to go back. I sometimes wonder what percentage of homeless people started off like me, where they couldn't take it anymore so they quit and then the money runs out.
> If you are so miserable while doing any kind of thing in a set way over any length of time, then you may find a soul-crushing moment where you have achieved permanent financial independence, are living your dream, and find this feeling overtaking you again. But this time there is no hope of an eventual way out.
I don't even think I'd be upset if this is what happens. At least I'd learn something about myself. I really have no idea who I am, and I've never had the chance to explore who I'd be without work for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Based on the few limited breaks I've had over the years, I suspect I'd be a very different person than I am today.
I honestly feel the same way as you, but inexplicably without the suicidal ideation. I'm not happy, per se, but I feel I've hit a spot different from either yours or who you're replying to. I agree with everything you've said, but my emotional self just goes on for whatever reason. I wish I had some actual advice or something, but all I can really say is, I'm an example that shows, at least in some people, "situation" and "how the situation changes my emotional state" are partially orthogonal.
That's a useful data point. It's hard to get a sense of these things when nobody ever wants to talk about them.
Perhaps another way to phrase a similar thought.
You’re probably right, ones life, and the world for that matter, could be different in ways that would be better. And this fact certainly deserves some amount of mourning. Especially things that seems to be just within reach.
But then again, if we take that thought to it’s extreme there’s no end to it, how different can we which for before being unreasonable? My goto example being that I wasn’t born with wings, and yes sometimes this fact saddens me, but overall not to an extent that it takes away my happiness for everything in my life I’m thankful of. Flying would be nice, but so is spending an evening dining with family, and this I can do (a fact I’m grateful of, not everyone is so lucky).
Perhaps it would be better to be born in another era, say a thousand years from now? A million? And yet, this place and time is probably so much better than many others I could have been born in. Would I be happier if I didn’t need oxygen? Eternal life? Perhaps. But why bother thinking about it The die has been cast, the rules of the game has been selected, I might as well enjoy it while playing.
I don't think the answer is subservience to an employer or sticking with the rat-race or religion, but it might be that an OP up-chain implied that once you have children, being at their service is a very pure, simplifying experience. If you're battling reality now, children won't be a solution because they also up the difficulty level a huge amount, but reading them a book is priceless, seeing them smile is priceless, going for a walk together is priceless. They make simple things brilliant.
It gives you an easier purpose than "maybe I'll work on anti-censorship stuff". Do you have niblings you can spend time with? Being an uncle/aunt or an equivalent to friends' children can be great too. Once upon a time, I considered myself definitely not the baby type, but now I have three kids and enjoy hanging out with my nephew, etc.
What about the outdoors?
Your "get over yourself" and "mature person" bits fill me with frustration and anger. I'm sorry for that, but it's there.
Being selfless is great. Hating the grind of a 40 hour / week job, versus "accepting" it has nothing to do with selflessness.
I didn't say being more selfless meant becoming a slave to your employer. I clarified in another post that becoming more selfless can actually help you to leave a toxic environment too. Or maybe you might realize that you were part of the reason it was so toxic, and you take that with you wherever you go. In that case running doesn't help. I don't know what OPs situation is or what yours is. Once you let go of yourself a bit, and readjust your mindset and priorities accordingly, based on whoever you are and whatever situation you are in, then it will likely become more clear what you should do. And it will be easier, and even enjoyable, to do what you should do.
I don't think we were designed to be miserable, so if we are stuck in misery isn't it logical to think we might be pursuing joy in the wrong things?
> But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying)
I think you're right, but what does work have to do with any of that? Maybe some jobs are about helping people, but most aren't really.
If anything a job makes it harder for most people to be selfless because they don't have the time.
The people you are helping is your family (via your income from the job).
My plan is to not have any family because of this employment problem. It'd be neat to have kids I guess, but however good it is cannot possibly be worth an extra 20 years of employment.
I have no idea what Classic is, but maybe it's not the thing you'd want to do so much of. That doesn't mean there isn't anything, or any combination of things, that you could do.
World of Warcraft Classic. It's MMORPG videogame from Blizzard.
Ah, jeez. Yeah, it seems fairly obvious that spending that much time in front of a screen isn't the path to happiness. If that's what he did with his time off no wonder he was unhappy with it.
I need to at least do something physical to be happy.
That's the exact opposite of what he said.
"I took a week off to play Classic, but I was tearing my eyes out after three days, bored out of my mind."
Start your own business, work fewer hours, and take the cut in pay. That's what I did, and I have no regrets. It's the best decision I ever made.
In my experience this is pretty bad advice for a lot of people. Starting a business is 1) almost always more time consuming and stress-inducing than working a normal job, 2) tends to end up being 20% the stuff you enjoy doing and 80% the stuff you don't, and 3) has an incredibly high chance of being really bad for you financially.
A potentially better solution several of my friends have pursued to good effect is to get the hell out of the 9-5 world and work a non-office job. Bartending is an example, another friend is now a baker, a third does event planning. Etc.
It isn't necessarily more stressful and time-consuming.
The point isn't to "start a business", it's to carefully engineer a viable business - which means doing solid research on customer numbers and income/profit estimates, creating a system for acquiring customers, and so on.
Basically an adult plan. Not am impulse or hobby business.
And that includes setting work limits for yourself, so you don't become the cliched 80-hr a week self-employed robot.
2) is certainly true. But it's true for any job. It's very rare for work to be wholly positive, no matter what you do.
The most basic difference is that you have an internal locus of control. This immediately removes a lot of stress, because you're no longer responsible for cleaning up other people's mistakes, or pandering to unrealistic whims.
You're still vulnerable to macro-economics, although that's true of any job. But you can also improvise and pivot your way out of difficulties - which is much harder when you're being managed from above.
In theory, that's true but I think you're making it sound a lot easier than it actually is. I don't know a single owner of a profitable business with employees that works less than a $250k/yr FAANG engineer. I sure as hell didn't any of the times I've run businesses. In general, you end up trading one set of issues for another - typical employee frustrations for typical business owner frustrations (closing new clients, dealing with employees, fighting competitors, keeping clients happy, managing all the overhead operations that come with business ownership, etc.)
It's possible to run a low-stress lifestyle business, but I would say it's not the norm and tends to be fragile unless we're talking something like lone wolf 1099 contractor self-employed without significant family obligations.
You don't have to take on employees. My one person business has been far more stable than my previous employment. I can lose a customer and still pay the bills, that wasn't the case when my only customer was my employer.
I agree with your original point, it isn't for everybody and it sounds like it wasn't for you. But I know many people who have managed to fit their business around their life rather than their life around their business.
Sounds like Office Space. ICYMI, the main character quits his job at a tech company and works outside doing construction.
I stalked you a little based on that comment, and I can't figure out what it is you really do.
You must be living a good life if you've got time to maintain a toy programming language (https://github.com/kerkeslager/fur), and you must be able to pick your work carefully if you're so passionate about GPL, which I can respect.
But how do you make money? And how did you get started? I'd be concerned about losing health insurance or draining savings while losing the opportunity cost of employment. How sure were you that your plan would work before you took the leap?
I don't think I'm really ready to give you the keys to life or anything. I'm happy with where I'm at, but it's certainly not perfect and it wouldn't work for everyone. I'll answer your questions, though.
> But how do you make money?
I do web development, mostly. I mostly ensure that I have work by undercharging for my services ($80/hour, which is pretty competitive for a Python developer with 10+ years of experience, 6ish of them in Python). I have low expenses because I live without some comforts (I live in a shared rental). I drive a 1996 Toyota Tacoma with 248K miles on it. I rock climb. It's not an extraordinary life, but it's mine and I like it.
> And how did you get started?
Parted ways on fairly good terms with my last salary job, without any real plan.
> I'd be concerned about losing health insurance or draining savings while losing the opportunity cost of employment.
Not to nitpick semantics, but you're currently paying the "opportunity costs" of employment. The opportunity costs of employment are what you lose by being employed, not the other way around.
Health insurance is literally my biggest expense, more than rent, and I'm a healthy 32 year old guy. The US is not a good place to be a human with a fallible body. What can I say, it's a risk. Plan for health insurance in your savings. Ultimately, not being in the US is probably the best idea--we're the only first world country with a third world healthcare system.
> How sure were you that your plan would work before you took the leap?
Not sure at all. It hasn't always "worked", either, I worked at a coffee shop and drove recycling to the dump for some local businesses, did landscaping, pet watching. I've never starved, never had to borrow money from friends or family. But I'm still not sure.
Your boss could lay you off tomorrow. Tomorrow's Friday, that's when they lay people off. There's certainly a risk in branching off on your own, but don't underestimate the risk of doing the same thing you've always done.
Probably you'll be okay no matter what choice you make, even if it's a mistake. It's just your finances. Your finances matter, but there are more important things.
EDIT: I'm passionate about the GPL, but can't really afford to be Richard Stallman about it. The reason I license my free software under the GPL is that I want it to push humanity forward, not get locked off in private codebases. But that's what I do on my free time, not what I do for work. I'd love to get paid to write GPL code and maybe some day I will, but most of the code I write is closed source for companies. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite--I like to think it makes me pragmatic.
Thank you. That's eye opening. This thread is making me realize how much the US health care system really is impacting my life choices.
> It's not an extraordinary life, but it's mine and I like it.
From where I'm sitting it seems pretty extraordinary :)
> This thread is making me realize how much the US health care system really is impacting my life choices.
Have you considered going to London/Toronto/Vancouver? There's lots of business potential in all three places, healthcare included in taxes (though not immediately--I'm not an expert but I know from friends there's definitely a waiting period in Canada and probably in the UK). You could work a salary job for a year or two to build up contacts and then branch out on your own.
The weather is simply too cold for me in those places. I need more sun, even NY is a bit rough for me. But if healthcare is a big concern it might work for you. I know people who have worked in and loved all three.
> From where I'm sitting it seems pretty extraordinary :)
Haha, well, thanks. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there isn't a script you have to follow. The typical 9-5 American dream sounds like it's a bad script for you, but what I've done might not be any better. Try stuff out, don't live in fear of mistakes, find out what works for you.
> ($80/hour, which is pretty competitive for a Python developer with 10+ years of experience, 6ish of them in Python)
I have this kind of experience, but the most I can make is $50/hour. How do you find high value clients?
I don't know if I have a real strategy here. I just give my rate early in the process and don't make it sound like it's negotiable. Some people don't call me back, and I suspect my rate is why. I do offer a lower rate to nonprofits. I've gotten one client through Craigslist (oddly) but despite ads on a bunch of websites, the rest of my work has come through referrals.
I suspect the biggest thing is just being in a good location. I live 90 minutes from NYC and can get there easily. The majority of my clients are in NYC and I think it would be hard to get the same rate in any but a few other cities (SF, Seattle maybe?).
There are some intangibles here. I interview well. I have code samples that I think are good--I don't have a lot to compare them to, but maybe they stand out compared to other devs. I do one stack (Python/Django/React) which is in high demand. I've been told I'm easy to work with and my clients have always been willing to give me recommendations (the recommendations are confidential, but I imagine they're positive because I keep getting work based on them). My experience is with some big name (top 50) companies. There are a lot of things in my situation that might be different from yours.
In general "finding high value clients" sounds a lot like advertising, and I don't really believe in advertising. I think advertising is a distraction from providing value, and believe that if I provide value to my clients the results will speak for themselves.
I wonder: how do you know you can only make $50/hour? If you just started telling people your rate was $80 from the get-go what would shake out?
how long did it take before you got enough work through referrals? and how much does your location matter to find clients? i am unable to find any local clients but i also can't easily move to anywhere else because i have a family with school-age kids which you don't move on a whim. people keep recommending upwork and similar places, but the quality of the offers there is not good either, and i end up competing with cheap labor. all the advice i find online is about how to get better leads, but not about how to get leads in the first place.
> how long did it take before you got enough work through referrals?
First referral was 3 months in. Work before that was from a friend of a friend, and someone I met in my coworking space.
People don't generally go through the effort of finding new freelance developers unless they have at least a month of work for them to do, so I'm not constantly scrambling to look for work.
> and how much does your location matter to find clients?
I think I could find clients almost anywhere, but I think they wouldn't pay as much elsewhere. NYC has a high concentration of high-revenue companies.
That said, I've only really worked from NYC and near NYC, so I don't really have any basis for comparison.
> i am unable to find any local clients but i also can't easily move to anywhere else because i have a family with school-age kids which you don't move on a whim. people keep recommending upwork and similar places, but the quality of the offers there is not good either, and i end up competing with cheap labor. all the advice i find online is about how to get better leads, but not about how to get leads in the first place.
My experience is limited here because my life situation is very different, but here are some ideas.
1. I don't live in NYC, I live 90 minutes outside it. This means I can travel, but in practice I don't do it frequently. So if you could travel a few times a year, you might get a lot of the benefits of living in NYC or SF without actually living there.
2. Upwork didn't even let me create a profile. Maybe think about people who you've worked with in the past (at previous employers or who left your company) and see if they or their companies are looking for any freelance work?
3. Obviously your risk tolerance is a lot lower than mine due to your family, so you might try doing stuff part-time. First step would be to make sure you have proper boundaries with your current job so you're not working overtime (which I'd say you should do regardless of any of my other advice anyway). And then look for small contracts, which can build a freelance portfolio and potentially get you more work.
nr 1. is a good point. i am actually doing that, and most of my current leads come from that.
nr 2. is something i heard frequently, but always leaves me at a loss. i just don't have enough past contacts to get anything out of that. it requires me to keep in touch with friends and colleagues remotely, which is something i find very hard to do.
for nr 3. i'd take a part-time remote job in a heartbeat, if i could find one. all jobs i have seen so far are full-time and not a good fit.
i forgot to mention, pretty much all work i got in the past few years was referrals. there just weren't enough of them. which means my referral network is not strong enough and i see no way to make it larger other than getting work elsewhere.
I've given this some thought, as I'm trying to figure out what to do with myself. I think I'm going to try this after my current startup sells or fails.
What I think I would do is reach out to anyone I know and let them know that I'm open for business and looking for clients. All of my employment jobs have worked that way, so I think it's probably a good first step for consulting too.
After that, I'd probably contact companies with job listings and offer to help them as needed with an hourly rate. They can always keep my number in their contact list in case they get into a bad spot and have trouble finding devs later. I know there's good job boards on SO, AngelList, and the monthly HN thread. I've been at plenty of companies where we wish we had an extra dev to get us out of a bind or pick up some extra work without committing to a full time hire, so I assume most small companies would be happy to be introduced to me, in case I'm needed later.
Then there's upwork, toptal, and a few others. Those sites really sketch me out because it seems like a race to the bottom, and it seems like it'd be harder to build relationships with clients when you're one of thousands that they picked from for this particular task. After all, they can just dump you and get another from the same web interface. Maybe I'm wrong about this and should give them a try.
This thread has really made me do some hard thinking about what I want in life, and I think I could put in another year or two and become semi-retired, take some time off, and then try to do a little consulting work and see how it goes. I've been paralyzed by fear to try, because I'm not sure if I'd be able to go back to employment if I fail. But after reading all these replies, that seems like a level of risk I should be willing to accept.
I also secretly hope (though I have no idea if it's true) that if I had a few months off work, I'd start building something so interesting than YC would want me. I don't actually know if I'm capable of that, because I've never had the time to experiment and find out, but that seems like a worthwhile attempt just to know what my actual capabilities are when unconstrained by work.
Also, I know this thread is getting old now, but I'd just like to say (in case anyone checks back) that I appreciate the replies here so much. I've never had so many people understand how I feel before. And reading all of the different life experiences that people have shared makes me realize that there is hope for me to do something else, and that I might not be trapped here until I'm dead, which is how it seemed before I started talking about this.
This chap (patio11 on hn) has a lot to say about it - https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ - and there are other good blog posts by him.
I'd love to hear more about this. Have you considered writing a blog post about this and sharing it here? Or if you happen to know of any good resources you can share, I'd appreciate those too.
The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to.
I haven't written a blog post, because I don't feel like I have all the answers by any means. I'm sure there are better ways to do almost everything I've done. I haven't always been successful. Maybe in a few years if I have more stuff worked out I'll write a blog post about it.
> The reason I ask is that I imagine a small or solo startup that's not focusing on massive growth but is optimizing for quality of life has a different set of challenges than the more traditional startups that people on HN are used to.
For sure!
How to? Starting your own business is not easy.
I used Zen Business to handle the legal stuff. Beyond that, my business is basically do what I did for a salary job (Python/Django), but fewer hours per week, and getting paid hourly without benefits. That wouldn't work for every career, but in my situation it actually was pretty easy.
Taxes are definitely not easy, but having a separate business bank account has made them a lot easier.
Working for someone else for 50 years is harder after its all said and done I suspect
One thing that stuck out to me was you mentioned needing 10 more years of work to reach your early retirement goals. That sounds like a really long time to me, considering how negative your experience is with working.
If you get your savings rate up to 75-80%, it shouldn't take you more than a few years to earn your freedom for life, even if it's a fairly modest existence.
For what it's worth, that's my plan. Save another 2-3 years then retire to live frugally (in US or abroad) on about $20-24k a year, 3-3.5% withdrawal rate.
Having to hang in there for 2-3 years can be rough at times, but 10 years would be crushing.
A subreddit for people who feel similar: reddit.com/r/antiwork.
Wow, as advertised, there's 43k people who feel just like me.
I agree with almost everything I'm seeing there, but it seems more about highlighting the problems than finding solutions.
yeah, unfortunately it's mostly just people venting. every once in a while they talk about solutions. it's mostly just FIRE, living very cheaply (like in a van), negotiating reduced hours, etc.
I agree wholeheartedly. I've tried again and again to do a full time job and I just can't handle how soul sucking it is. I'm 30 and in my life I've had a total of less than a year of full time employment.
It's not a terrible life, but I do worry about the future a lot, especially when I meet my old college friends and realise what the 100k+ salary gets you. I wish I could do the same but I cannot.
I feel you. I wrote this post just now and it couldn't be more relevant: How I code for 4 hours a day and make more than my peers https://medium.com/@marcospgp/how-i-code-for-4-hours-a-day-a...
If you can, consider consulting. You have much more control of when you work, with whom, and on what. Not perfect, but for sure better. Please give it a go if you can.
Find a remote job (take a pay cut if needed), move to a cheaper country if money is a concern. Work 3-4 hours on a beach. Totally realistic as long as you’re good at what you do and manage to get things done.
I did that and relocated from SF to a cheaper part of the country. How does working on a beach help?
I'm expected to be online during core work hours and available for calls (in a quiet location with good internet).
I feel like I've optimized working as much as humanly possible and I'm still going insane. My job pays well, has good benefits, has good coworkers, my opinion is valued, my work is appreciated, my boss is fine, I learn new things every day, I now do 12-8 instead of 9-5 by switching time zones, and I make sure to be done with work when the office is done with work. I keep telling myself all these objectively good things, but I feel like I'm wasting every day for a paycheck. I store it all away and invest it, as if there's going to be a future, but I'm fully expecting this to kill me long before I'd have enough funds to quit.
I must be doing something wrong though, because if everyone felt like I do, society shouldn't be able to function.
Working on a beach is optional if it's not your thing. I only mentioned it because it would probably feel less like work to me. The point is you choose where and when you want to work.
About being online - I worked remotely for a year with a 10 hour time difference. Talked to my boss on Skype once a week to discuss progress. The rest was up to me. Most of communication was done via ticket comments. Sometimes I skipped a day or even two, but I knew that afterwards I'd have to work extra to make progress.
I don't know if you're doing something wrong, or maybe it's just your personality, but when I did what I loved, it didn't feel like work at all. That was at a small startup where I was the first engineer, and I worked alongside CEO, CTO, and later a couple more guys, building something really interesting. If I felt how you feel, that's the only way I would work. The salary was a third of what I can make now at any big corp in California, but unless you really need the money (kids, mortgage, old age and no savings, etc), then you really don't need much to be happy.
> Talked to my boss on Skype once a week to discuss progress. The rest was up to me. Most of communication was done via ticket comments.
Wait, is this common? I'm constantly answering questions and helping my team along as people get stuck all day. If I had the kind of an arrangement you're describing, I'd just get all my work done for the week in a day, and I wouldn't have a problem. Was there anything preventing you from doing that?
Maybe I'm doing remote wrong? I can choose "where" as long as it's quiet and has good internet, but I can't choose the "when" at all.
I have a phd in deep learning, so I do R&D type of work, where I mostly read papers, build models, run experiments, and occasionally write emails to others who work on similar problems.
I actually didn't like to be so disconnected from the group. I like face to face brainstorming sessions, and I couldn't really have that there.
Sounds like you might be more of a lynchpin to the team than the other commenter (which isn't a negative to them). You could try being less available, say no more often, etc. But some people just can't get away from it.
Here's a forbes article[0] about this phenomenon. Top performers get rewarded with more work in organizations generally speaking. The next job I have I am going to attempt to appear less competent as I have found that getting a 5% raise rather than 3% isn't really worth all the extra hours and weekends.
[0]https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2018/01/25/the-curse-of...
External things have limited relevance to the internal condition.
"Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need." - Matthew 6:33
I don't believe in any gods, and I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
Is that advice actionable for you in some way? What do you take it to mean as it relates to modern employment?
The point of the whole section is that it's more important to build a legacy of being a good person than to be wealthy.
One of the lines that proceeds that is:
>27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
Humans should be smart enough to figure out how not to starve and and not to freeze to death without working themselves to death preparing for a future that may not even come. We should care about each other enough to admit that those outcomes are not necessary and be willing to give and accept support form others from time to time.
Gospel of Thomas has a similar parable > , "There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, 'I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing.' These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died.'
Ie, don't make yourself miserable for material possessions out of fear that if you lack them for a period you will never be ok ever again. You'll lack them when you're dead too. Stress yourself out too much about those things and you'll probably just die early without even attempting the things you wanted to do. At least attempt to improve the world in some way if you think you have the means and desire to do so. And even if you risk your material possessions to do so, it probably isn't the end of the world.
Oh ok, that makes sense. I know that's one way to view the problem, but I guess it carries more weight as being the correct view due to the divine origin of the advice?
Maybe the bible is right here, but another way to view that parable might be that the rich person was planning for his safety, which is wise. And by dying, he has transferred the safety that he was building for himself to his legacy, which can continue without him. I think most people in our society would describe that rich person as being prudent, not foolish. We call that "estate planning" today and it's recommended that everyone does it.
There's a lot of other guidance that I consider very wrong in the same bible though, so its authority doesn't help me much in deciding if it's correct about how to view life. It also seems like this advice might have been more applicable before the invention of medicine.
In any case, I appreciate the explanation.
That verse is worthless for atheists, but the first sentence is actually usable. How we experience life, how we feel is strongly influenced by the labels we attach to our experiences. Maybe meditation can help you, no god needed. Check out "The mind illuminated", this book gets recommended in pretty much every thread on hn about meditation and for good reasons.
> I must be doing something wrong though, because if everyone felt like I do, society shouldn't be able to function.
No you're not doing anything wrong. You're not the problem, the society is.
Also I have to say that I feel exactly like you on everything you said on this thread.
Can't help noticing that you don't mention your own perception of purpose of the work in that list. Which is pretty obvious from the overall description anyway.
Sounds like you could use some rotation of occupations until you find anything that's of interest to you. Intrinsic interest trumps external motivation every time, just ask a procrastinator.
Personally I stumbled upon work that interests me purely by chance, only because the web was taking off back then. I don't even need to know I'm serving the humanity or building the future, just give me some scripting to fiddle with and I'll fiddle it into perfect shape. Have no idea how I'd function otherwise—would probably rot my brains off and drink myself to death as a janitor or something.
In fact, I'm getting serious dread from the thought that I should be switching occupations for the reasons of both health and money, and because youngsters are mashing keyboards faster.
Most people think what they do at work is important for them on a personal level. This may not be an objectively correct belief (but then, how does one define what's objectively important for oneself?) but there is this sentiment of wanting to make society better, and at work you are in a kind of society.
You seem to be missing that social link with your coworkers.
(And yes, if you ask me, I'd say it's everybody else that is crazy here, not you. But people are not built to have a completely clear mind.)
As a newly-minted member of the "40 hour / week" working club I have to agree with you. It's not okay. I'm not okay. This lifestyle is bullshit.
I recently shuttered my successful IT contracting business of 15 years. The reasons aren't worth going in to in detail. The fucked US health insurance system, out-of-control medical expenses, the Trump administration, and minor pre-existing medical conditions scared me (my wife and I in our 40's... shit has gone wrong because we've, ya' know, lived...). I was worried that the "Repeal Obamacare" people would eventually leave family without health insurance. In that state, we'd be potentially one health issue away from bankruptcy and losing everything I've worked my whole life for.
A job opportunity came up w/ a Customer. Since all I've done for the last 20 years is "hired gun" contract IT work I have no resume to speak of. I'd never get in the front door of a hiring process for what I'm accustomed to making. I'm "just" a sysadmin (albeit one who does know how to code). I'm in my 40's. I'd be lucky to make half and I'll be damned if I'm going to make my wife work outside the home if she doesn't want to.
So, I took the 40 hour / week public sector job. I spending $15K less per year on health insurance premiums and I'm making about the same gross that I was w/ my business. I guess I should count myself lucky. I should be happy with it. I guess.
The hours are fucking excruciating. Fucking. Excruciating. I don't understand how other people do this. It's soul-sucking and ridiculous. 40 hours a week dedicated to one single thing, aside from sleep, is untenable.
I've religiously tracked 100% my time-- personal and work-- for the last 15 years. My per-night sleep is down to under 6 hours, previously at 7.5 - 8. My personal time (meals, time w/ family, recreation, exercise) is crazily lower now too. I feel physically worse. My weight is going up.
I knew the old gig was good (billing 4.5 hours / weekday, on average, to make what I wanted) but I had absolutely no idea this grind would be such a grind. It's absolutely terrible. I don't see my wife and daughter anymore. I hate the time commitment.
I'm working to find the next business. Maybe there will be some actual progress with health insurance or medical expense and I'll be able to work independently again w/o fear of losing our retirement savings when one of us has the eventual medical issue. We're kicking the savings for retirement up and I need to start doing some income investing (though, again, a fat lot of good that does me if I can't affordable and good health insurance). I need to get rid of this fucking albatross.
I know this is a throwaway for you (and it sort of is for me too), but I just wanted to reply to you and let you know that I'm cheering for you to find a way to make things work. If I ever solve this problem for myself, I'm going to shout the solution from the rooftops, in the hopes we can all learn to live as humans instead of drones.
Dude, you need 1) a kick in the nuts and 2) a chill pill. Your work is stupid, I know. Just stop giving a shit. Start taking risks and see what happens. Call in sick and play banjo or something. Act stupid. You need to act stupid every once in a while or you'll go crazy. You might like it, you might not, but you'll never know until you try..
I am doing ok. Thanks for asking. I am working in my first "hard tech" job after graduating from the help desk. I am also working in my first real job. I am in my late 40's. I am a Unix sysadmin for a fortune 10 company. I have some old debts that I am slowly paying off. They are from years of bad jobs and bad decisions. I am working on getting a better job, migrating into development. My first HN comment. I hope I don't get faded away lol.
I said Fortune 10 and now realize that the company is in the Fortune 200. Thanks for the encouragement nonetheless.
Unix system admin can be stressful especially if its a production environment. It's great to hear things are working out for ya and you're enjoying the new gig.
Sounds like great movement in the right direction, congrats!
Good luck, sounds like everything's falling into place!
Congratulations, and best of luck!
Not really.
My country is being ripped apart, everyone seems so hateful against the other, the government talks about record employment level and pay while people are using foodbanks and sleeping in the streets.
My own life is great by the standards that people usually use to measure success. But it feels so empty. I'd rather check out and go and live in a cave on a hill, but all the land and caves have been parcelled off and sold before I was even born.
So here I am, I continue to live, step over people on my way to work, where I sit and help contribute to climate change, feel the guilt of all of it and wanting to change it but without knowing how.
I can relate; I found myself in a fairly similar place mentally myself a half-year ago. The thing is, you're not alone and it's possible to start making steps towards trying to make a positive difference.
For the intersection of climate change and tech - check out Impact Makers [1] and their Slack community. Plenty of developers, designers, PMs, and data analysts working on various projects and companies across the spectrum of tackling climate change. I'd also recommend looking at and perhaps attending some effective altruism meetups in your city - it's a nice way to meet real people thinking about the same things with similar goals. Lastly I've found the 80,000 Hours website [2] to be a great resource for getting an idea of potential job paths, openings, and resources.
It hasn't been an instant fix but after setting some long-term goals in this space and starting to work towards them I've felt my mental health improve. I hope yours can too!
[1] - https://techimpactmakers.com/
[2] - https://80000hours.org/
I'd ask what third world country you live in, but it really sounds like America right now.
I’d bet good money parent was talking about the UK.
But yes, a lot of countries are like that at the moment.
Yes, I'm in the UK. And yes, it does appear to be worldwide.
It's like, what do you do after you realise The Hoax? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2VIUcuF3KE
I watched it 12 years ago stoned/drunk in uni. Good question. Can't say it got any better
Does any country _not_ sound like that? I'd like to go there.
If that is the case, things seem pretty good here in the Netherlands.
I was certain it was the same as I live up to the point he talked about record employment levels...
Well, at least we get to know how people feel during major world changes.
Yes, it feels like Argentina to me. I'm in Argentina.
Wow really? That's fascinating. Can you tell us more?
I was thinking the UK due to Brexit and austerity under the Conservatives etc.
I was thinking the US because of the viscous atmosphere between democrats / conservatives.
It feels like we're sliding backwards in civil discourse and it's quite disappointing. We've lost all patience for our neighbor. It's all a black and white, right or wrong, "where do YOU stand?" environment.
That may be what its like in social media, but IRL really doesn't seem to care that much. At least in my cushy midwestern city.
I'm in the UK, but I don't doubt that the same feeling isn't felt in the US or in any other country
I'm fairly certain we're from two different countries, but you pretty much described my feelings to a T. I wonder if this is a normal pattern, or whether the world is going through some sort of slow breakdown with no recent historical precedent?
Information has never been this universal and dense before. A half century ago the only tragedy or suffering you were widely exposed to was that between the bounds of your daily commute and whatever the local news station decided to talk about for half an hour every day. And negativity from everywhere is leaky, and being exposed to a whole planet of it puts in scope the scale of everything broken in the world in a way that to 99.99% of individuals is untenable to even approach improving.
Theres a reason there is a correlation between intelligence and suicide rates or why if you have someone in your family with down syndrome they always seem happy. The wider your perception the more you realize how little you can actually do to influence it. The narrower the easier it is the less there is to worry about.
Nobody has the perfect answer to this problem of course, but one option I like is to budget time for it. Spend a few hours a week "trying to fix the world" and then resign the other 164 hours to trying to fix and improve yourself. If you have explicitly allocated time for something and budget for it its less invasive in the rest of your life. Hopefully. Doesn't work for everyone.
Yes, I've been wondering this too - especially the economic part of it.
How is it that the same dynamic could be happening in so many countries that are ostensibly so different from each other?
I am inclined think that this is because of technological disruption, but how, exactly? Is this because of automation, globalization, or perhaps technology breaking governance systems somehow?
I think it's because we're sold on the idea of progress (technological and other types) as leading to improvements in our lives. But generally they aren't realised.
Automation, for example, was supposed to lead to easier lives with more free time for our own activities, but as I look around I see everyone being so so busy. As a society we are able to produce more and at a greater pace, but all the proceeds of that go up to the top and all of the rest of the people lose out from it.
Maybe a recent historical precedent that sort of matches is the late 1930's? That of course led to WWII. I wouldn't say it's as bad, but there's similarities.
> I'd rather check out and go and live in a cave on a hill, but all the land and caves have been parcelled off and sold before I was even born.
You and me both brother.
Sorry to hear that.
I often think about reconciliating tech with people. Going to help climate change related companies. Or solar powered (if that's of any help) ones.
Maybe even doing small apps for associations. At my last job, I saw how the used very limited tools and people have to work with paper listings the old way even though a simple bit of software logic could alleviate a good amount of stress. I think a lot of people are looking for that.
And just yesterday I ran into a german guy who made is own recruiting agency, his clients are helping optimizing energy consumption, plus they aim at open source too. Felt like a great idea to copy.
On the cave front, your best bet might be car dwelling on public land. I don't know the options in the UK, but there are opportunities in Australia and loads in the US. In the US you can go camp in the forest or desert away from the chaos and (generally) only have to move every 10-14 days. Depending on the vehicle you have, you can do this with minimal expense and as a full-time lifestyle decision or just when you need to clear your head for a weekend.
It's very liberating being out in a forest or desert, especially without phone signal. Fewer distractions, fewer possessions.
We don't really have the space nor the climate for that in the UK. Some people do it but it's out of desperation rather than anything else. You will get hounded by the authorities as well.
Feel ya man. You wrote exactly how I feel. If you're still in Yorkshire, try to get out on the moors, see the sun rise, look at the sheep. Walk through the forests. It helps me a bit!
> I continue to live, step over people on my way to work, where I sit and help contribute to climate change, feel the guilt of all of it and wanting to change it but without knowing how.
Sorry for being harsh, but please grow up and stop letting other people manipulate you by making you feel guilty about climate, your relative wealth and other things. Focus on making your own life better, leave the current climate change craze (yes, craze) for politics to address.
I don't agree with your individualistic vision. This is the exact kind of mindset that brought us to where we are right now. I can tell you politics won't fix climate change, especially if people start to not care at all...
The whole point of having governments is to address issues that affect large groups of people. Personal crusades, based on distorted perception of issues due to anxiety issues, will never yield useful results.
I agree that governments should be addressing these issues, my initial post was mostly about how they are not doing that, and at the same time actively telling us that everything is great.
It's almost like their own measure of success isn't the happiness and wellbeing of their citizens.
Is this the UK by any chance?
I made it out a few times. After a break-in, I took off backpacking and lived off $20k NZD of savings for nearly a year:
https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/
I attempted this a 2nd time in a car and it wasn't quite as good, but I'm still glad I did it:
https://khanism.org/perspective/a-tale-of-two-journeys/
If you're under 30, holiday work visas are great. Tons of countries have these agreements, they're cheap ($200 ~ $300) and let you live and work in another country for a year. The US has them with Australia, NZ, Ireland and a few non-English speaking countries too. IT work doesn't require certification like some professions (medical, legal) so it's easier for us to get work.
A lot of people are afraid to make these kinds of jumps. I will admit after that last 5 month drive and watching my bank account drain, I can understand the security of a job and I probably won't take off again (unless I can get into grad school to work on my PhD). It's much more difficult with family/kids, although two people I graduated with lived out of an RV for a while and even raised their kids for the first few years in RVs. One got off the road because he got cancer and needed to settle down to be close to a hospital for treatment. The other decided to home school in the RV.
> step over people on my way to work
This was one of the reasons for the 2nd journey, because that was life in Seattle.
I think overall this concept seems nice, the "R U OK?" but it fails to actually help people from the systemic problems of dissatisfaction with life. The best intentions cannot solve issues of loneliness or missing a life partner. They cannot correct a society which pushes young men and women to get STEM jobs and fancy careers instead of going into the fields they want (honestly I think men should be encouraged to go into art and education and more fulfilling work instead of women being encouraged into the same careers that leads men to be totally unhappy with our lives; but that's a whole different rabbit hole).
I'll end this rant by saying I've been lonely for quite some time, but still recently walked away from two potential relationships. One of them brought up really early she wanted a family and the other I had shared the fact that I didn't want kids. When I was younger I always assumed I'd have kids, because every girl I dated wanted them. Now that I'm almost 40; I just don't want to bring anyone else into this world to suffer and die.
I think these problems are big, really big, and this kind of website or concept isn't going to help people really get past the feeling of deep unsatisfactions with our lives. That takes a lot more work; and a way to build a better world.
I just want to make an aside point here, that for the vast majority of people on the planet, the idea that they would have 20k in savings to take a year off is just wishful thinking.
To be able to even get to the point of having 20k in savings, you must have an incredible safety net in terms of both society and family that allows that to happen. You are incredibly privileged to have been able to even save that kind of money, let alone take a year and live with it.
Not only is the 20k savings a barrier of entry for most people, but this type of advice comes with massive assumptions about one's own life.
Good luck doing this if you're in a committed relationship. Good luck doing this if you have kids, for example.
For anyone who's put down even basic roots, this is a difficult bit of advice, if not downright unhelpful.
I mentioned the two friends who had the RV life. I meant to add that it helped they had jobs which allowed for remote work. It is a big investment too, as you're essentially buying a house that will go down in value.
If you read my other comment, I mentioned people who did the same thing that were low income too. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if you can get it to work with your current skills and situation it's possible. You don't need a lot of money, but you do need to adjust your priorities.
And of course if you have family, commitments, etc, there are other ways you can break free. Let's list some other ideas for people. This is just one thing that I did.
Fair enough. I just see posts like this often and, to me at least, they strike me as the "easy" answer. I don't have any good answer for if you are locked into a relationship, kids, etc... That's kinda the life you chose, and you gotta take the good with the bad. I guess?
Yeah those posts irk me too, but this one doesn't for two reasons.
1.) The general problems on this thread seem to be from professionals with good jobs, but feeling unfulfilled, depressed, lonely, ect. Thus it is a possibility for them.
2.) He opens with "this is why I did _____", and only talked about how it helped (and also hurt) HIM, not how EVERYONE should do this. Thanks for the post :)
It's harder in a relationship or with kids but not impossible. I travelled for a year with my now-wife and we've done 4-5 week trips since. Recently we took our three young kids (1-6yo) overseas, bought a bus and drove it around for three months. Not everyone can afford it but there are loads of people who can and just stick with the rat race grinding them into the dirt. "Maybe I'll live life when I retire."
Also, in terms of it being unhelpful, I think it's important to find a way to distill it to a scenario which isn't beyond your situation - get away for the week instead of a year, find joys in simple and cheap things, bushwalk with your kids, reduce to four days/week, etc. When someone gives their personal/general advice, it's your choice whether you find something of use there, right?
<quote>most people</quote> Yeah, but for a lot of people on HN, I think 20K in savings would be pretty standard.
Even considering the restrictions of relationship and kids: 30% of my office is still youg-ish, single with over $20k in savings (as far as I can guess).
Not all advice is for everyone, but I think a long, long vacation away from your current tech career, that has left you with some savings, might be a good fit for this forum.
I got the idea from a guy I met in a hostel in Australia who saved up $10k. He only did restaurant and fishing work in the US. He drank and traveled for a year until he ran out (occasionally taking up restaurant work under the table here and there).
I dated am American in Germany who lived off less than €400 a month (mostly from teaching English) for several years .. although that's kind a bad example because she lost her visa for not having enough work.
Sure my field makes it easier, but it's not necessary. I've met people who were not in high paying fields who could do the same (and honestly if I had been better with my money and lived like them, I could have made it 2 or 3 years on that much). It's really about your priorities.
I have done that twice, the second time was nearly five years in total and I worked part time to sustain myself while doing it. Working part time did allow me to cultivate a better balance of life, but it was predicated on living in developing countries while leveraging my first world name and face to earn comfortably above the local market values.
I really enjoyed the time I spent away, but I do have to acknowledge that the happiness wasn't through the things that bothered being solved, but only making it easier to ignore or distract myself from them. In the end I wasn't finding the meaning that I was looking for, and the draw of family ties and relationships brought me back home.
Yeah, wth is happening with Seattle? It's home to some of the richest people on earth, employment is high and business is booming. But every time I visit the city I always see at least two people on the street who appear to be overdosing. Fortunately EMS is well prepared for this kind of thing, but boy have things changed. It's really hard to watch and I wish I knew what I could do to help.
Thanks for asking. Not really, and it's 100% work-related. I dread coming in to work and it's given me awful anxiety that's turned into occasional passive suicidal ideation. Once I leave work, I feel like a totally different person and all the symptoms disappear.
My boss calls me stupid, incompetent, r*tarded, and "like you have part of your brain missing". He grills me on literally everything I do, like why I'm getting up from my desk or why I'm eating what I brought for lunch. He interrupts everything I say and puts me down in front of other people. He took away benefits he knew I enjoyed, like being able to take college courses for free in unrelated areas like music and ceramics, and he banned me alone from making conversation with my work friends, and moved my desk away from them to his office so he can watch everything I do. I'm underpaid ($40k/year) and therapy sessions are $150 each, so I don't have much saved up to just quit and search for new jobs full-time. He threatens to fire me almost every day. I'm not sure how I'll ever get out, this started about a year ago and I've been applying every day since but haven't found anything. It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing.
Sorry if that's oversharing, but working here is draining my soul.
edit: thanks for all the support everyone, it means a lot :)
You are working in a TOXIC environment and obviously it's taking its toll. You have to get out, or at least transfer to another team. You wrote that you went to HR and they didn't help with your boss, but perhaps they CAN help moving you to another team. And you wrote that you're applying for other jobs - it can take time, just don't give up!
> It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing It won't be the same thing, because your current boss won't be there! Sounds like he's abusing you, and most likely your next boss won't behave the same.
> It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing
Most people also are too lazy for this level of sadism. Even if your next boss is a bigger asshole (which sounds completely unbelievable), it'd be more profitable for them to let you work rather than waste all that energy abusing you.
Forgive if I missed something but where did the parent mention HR? I ask because I agree with your assesment about the environment they are in and my first thought was to ask "have you talked to anyone in HR?".
Otherwise totally agree, especially the part about not giving up!
My goodness! I'm positive the poster wrote something about talking to HR and they said others complained too but nothing ever changes. Did he edit his post, or am I hallucinating?
Not sure, that's why I asked. :-)
Maybe confused it with another post? I do that a lot around here... And there seems to be a lot of people today in similar situations.
Regardless, as others have mentioned, the environment they are dealing with is wrong and if HR isn't the solution perhaps legal action that others mentioned would be the way to go.
To the parent poster, I hope things get better soon for you. Stay strong and do your best to get out of there as soon as possible!
A little perspective. $40k/year is about what glassdoor suggests you should make as the manager of a 7-11. A little one.
Don't be afraid of a temporary career change. I've done it twice to save myself from burnout. We get overly attached to a narrative about ourselves as developers and become convinced that we need an unbroken ladder of the latest gee-wiz frameworks and libraries to stay in the game. Outside of FAANG its mostly not true.
But first, start telling that bully no in the most non-confrontational way you can. Take the most unreasonable demand and politely say in response "no I don't think I'm going to do that". You actually have nothing to lose.
I work in FAANG in a senior/tech lead engineering role. I don’t think unbroken ladder of latest gee-whiz frameworks and libraries is even remotely accurate of what developers in these companies care about or need.
If anything, wanting to adopt the latest and “greatest” is usually a sign of an inexperienced engineer.
If you’re at FAANG, especially at a team that is optimizing for throughput or scale, you’ll care more about design trade offs and performance, availability, and resiliency concerns as opposed to the latest framework. If anything, something tried and true that’s been out a long while and vetted out is a lesser risk than something released in the past year or two. In other words, maturity is an important factor (the weight may depend given your other considerations).
Seconded. My FAANG team doesn't use frameworks that would be recognizable outside the company, only internal ones. My interview didn't involve any frameworks, only basic computer science, design, and problem-solving.
Definitely consider making a temporary jump into some undesirable but comparably compensating job while you keep up your job search. Just absolutely make sure to demonstrate through github or something that you are keeping your skills fresh.
I don't know much about your specific employment situation, but your boss is abusing you emotionally. What they're doing might possibly be illegal in some US states actually.
Make no mistake. The negative things that your boss is saying about you are almost certainly untrue.
Your boss has no right to say those things to you or to target you like that. In most situations, I would say talk to your boss's boss or HR, but it seems like the company you work for would really be of no help if they already let it get this bad.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any solid solutions. If I were you, I would look into unemployment compensation laws in your area and see if you could get unemployment benefits because you quit your job due to emotional distress.
If I were in your situation, I would quit the next time I walked into work.
I was in a similar situation. Here are my advice: 1. It's just him. Some people are just a-holes. You need to leave. Not all jobs are like that, not all bosses are like that. Abuse is abuse. 2. When I was in your situation, I focus all of my energy to learning a new skill. It's as if I used all that I hate about this job to motivate myself in learning something new. It worked.
Best of luck
Start interviewing, I know that this is very often thrown around here and in other communities but absolutely NONE of this behaviour should be acceptable in any kind of professional environment.
You know you are being severely underpaid (I'm assuming you are from the US even though I'm not) so finding a place paying the same or a little better just to get away from this fucking horrible situation is worth every single second of effort.
Thanks. I have a final interview next week at a somewhat boring company, but the pay would be nearly double and I think I'd be much much healthier, so I'll take that if I can get it.
Boring is good. You got enough "excitement" lately.
Hopefully you will find that the people at the "somewhat boring company" are more kind and supportive than what you've been dealing with.
Boring companies still have interesting problems for you to dig in on. As well as that, boring can often mean stability, which can be really good for your mental health.
The pay difference doesn't matter one bit. You need to get out of the current job.
If they offer anything over 40k take it! You might even want to consider explaining you want to get out of your current job, and are willing to take less pay. The risk is that it could sound like you don't think you are a good fit.
I hope the interview goes well! Good luck!
The way I see it, a bit of time in a slightly more boring workplace, especially with a better manager, could really help to find stability in your life and recover from all the verbal abuse.
I hope you find a job that isn't the same thing, they really do exist! Most of all, I hope it works out for you. Best of luck!
He is just trying to convince you that you're not worth the raise, and that you wouldn't get a better job somewhere else. He is wrong. Apply everywhere. If you don't have kids or a mortgage, just quit.
I was in a similar situation once. I got lucky because someone in our department, who was much stronger than I was, found a new job as a manager at a different company. Then a year later asked me to come work for him. That does not mean you have to wait to be lucky. Update your resume, don't try to wait until you have some new skill, just update it to wherever you are now, and start applying. Remember to ask for at least 80k.
That's work place bullying. Is there some sort of complaint you can make to someone or some external organisation? Start applying elsewhere but also start making a diary of the things he said to you and when - might be handy if you wanted to go the legal route.
Quit. Today. This guy is sick-- mentally and emotionally ill --and you need to cut him out of your life and never have anything to do with him again.
This is way more important than that paycheck.
You'll be fine, one way or another. This isn't really about your boss, it's about you and your self-respect and fear of change and stuff like that. (I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze you from across the internet but this much is clear from what you wrote.)
Also, fire your therapist, as you are clearly getting ripped off there.
Hi theanine. You are worth it to not experience any of that ever again. It will take a while, even after getting out of it, to get back to your real, healthy self. But you will. And after a good while, perhaps you will even look back on this and learn something, giving you even a few more facets.
You can get out of this and you will. Don't accept any mean thing your boss says about you. The opposite is true. If you feel like reaching out, you can find my contact details in my profile. No strings, and I'm not in a position to offer you a job, but if you feel like shooting the shit or having a banter.
Please take care of yourself.
I could only conceive this behaviour as rational (although still uncivilised) if he wants to fire you and cannot.
In my country this sort of thing is illegal (work harassment).
Listen to this person OP. If your boss really felt a tenth of the things he says about you, he'd fire you and forget about it. Knowing nothing else about you, his treatment alone says you're worth much more than $40k, and I'd bet the house your criminally abusive (seriously, talk to a lawyer, slurs like this aren't kosher even in the US) boss knows this.
I'm sure your HR department would also like to know they have a sadist working for them.
Buy an old-school audio recorder, with voice-activation. Record everything your boss says to you or about you. Save and back up any e-mails or written notes. Speak with your co-worker peers about the boss's behavior.
Take your documentation to your therapist. Or to an employment lawyer that offers free or affordable initial consultations.
Do not stop applying for jobs with different companies.
I wouldn't go to HR. They work for the company, not for you. If they were doing their jobs effectively, you would not be suffering this abuse in the first place.
> It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing.
Take a pay cut if you have to, just for a better work environment - even if you have to sell everything and move across the country. Ramen noodles and frozen vegetables are better than PTSD, and you'll find your way to a better paying job that better suits you.
And document these things that are happening. If your boss does any of this through email, save those emails.
> My boss calls me stupid, incompetent, r*tarded, and "like you have part of your brain missing". He grills me on literally everything I do, like why I'm getting up from my desk or why I'm eating what I brought for lunch.
yeah... that's not normal even a little bit. look for a new job. i have a hard time that any company that allows that kind of behavior is any better in any other department so get out ASAP!
Dude wtf, fuck that shit. I'd rather be unemployed than putting up with that shit
You would sooner find me living in a tent or teaching English for a pittance than putting up with this.
Holy crap you need to get out of there. I think literally any job can be better than that one. There is so much out there, just try hard and take the leap.
I hope you find something soon. Look outside your area for jobs that pay for relocation if you have been having trouble finding jobs in your area, or look for remote jobs. There are tons of remote jobs right now, it's a huge industry that a lot of people don't consider.
P.S. - GO TO HR, THEY CAN HELP. Your boss should be fired tomorrow for that bullshit.
This sounds like an awful place to work. Are you a software developer? There have to be a thousand better companies that would love to have you working with them.
Could you be persuaded into defending yourself every time he lashes out? That would fix both your psychology and hopefully his, too. You see, he is abusive because his life is miserable. Make it a hobby to give him a hard time by defending yourself and your work and the value you generate. Because if you don't value yourself, nobody has to.
I'm really sorry to hear how hard this is for you. It is not normal for a job to be like this, and you deserve better. Don't give up in your job search, and please take care of yourself. Even if you can find anything else to pay the bills to get away, your sanity is not worth it.
One thing you can consider (in the US): quit and file for unemployment benefits - it's a hostile work environment, so youre entitled to this. That would give you some cushion while searching for a new job.
Googled "can you quit and file for unemployment".
To qualify for unemployment, you must be out of work through no fault of your own. If you quit your job voluntarily, without good cause, you won't be eligible for unemployment benefits. However, if you are forced out and/or have good cause to quit, you may still be eligible for benefits, depending on the circumstances.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefit...
I was fired and filed for unemployment and reported that it was a hostile environment. The benefits were quickly approved and no questions were asked beyond what the form asked for.
I can second this. If OP wrote what he wrote here in the unemployment application I'm nearly certain he would get it. Worst case he may have a wait a few weeks (8 where I live I believe) before the benefits kick in.
Is there anyone you can lean on financially or with a place to stay so that you can get yourself out of this extremely toxic situation? I can't imagine that another job would be anywhere near this level of stress. In the meantime I would suggest attending meetups and talking up how you are looking for new opportunities. I have found that applying online is far less effective in finding employment than just showing up and networking.
Lots of people already said it, but here it goes: Hang in there buddy, get out of that place. Seriously. Not every boss is like that. Trust us.
You're pretty clearly in an abuse situation. Important: the abuse is the reason you haven't found another job. Because 1) you can't put your best foot forward when you're under attack constantly, and 2) I'd wager you don't come off as really wanting the jobs you're applying for because as you said, you think they'll be like this one. None of this is a coincidence by the way; an abuser needs an otherwise rational and free-thinking adult to decide to stay there and take the abuse, despite the fact that it's abuse and said adult can easily tell it quite obviously sucks and is intolerable and they should leave immediately. How would one accomplish this feat of making someone think the exact opposite of what they know is right? By underhandedly making you believe that you're always wrong (or doubt that you're right), and that you're worthless and nobody else would want you, and that losing this job would be the worst thing in the world, and a variety of other things. Oh and that all jobs are like this. Yes I'm asking/accusing/wondering aloud whether that idea didn't somehow come from him too. Only because it so nicely dovetails with the goal of making you stay. Only you know the answer though, so consider where you got the idea. And by the way, let me reassure you, most jobs are NOT like this one. Most people are normal, kind, and supportive. The great irony is that the thing he threatens you with is precisely the BEST outcome - to leave this shit situation. In my state (yours may vary) if he fires you, or even if you quit, you can apply for unemployment, and there will be a phone hearing, at which you can make the case for managerial incompetence, i.e. that he not only fired you without cause, he also abused you, has a history of same (document it), endangered your health (stress, weight gain?) etc. such that you had to quit. It would be the truth.
Anyway, I repeat, the abuse is what's stopping you from getting another job. The longer you stay (and a year is already an eternity in this kind of situation) the worse it will get. You are in a FUCKING EMERGENCY. It's not "save up money until I can afford to quit," it's "quit now[0] because I can't afford NOT to quit." Worry later about paying rent. People break leases all the time without repercussions. Again your state landlord-tenant law may vary. Do you have any supportive family or friends you can stay with? You should let them know what happened, move in with them and start healing from this, and returning to normal. And actively challenging and verifying everything you "learned" at this job.
What I'm advising might be extreme. There will be problems to overcome if you do it. But at least you won't have to overcome them with that monkey on your back. I'll monitor this thread in case you want to talk.
[0] Edit: Or make him fire you.
Your situation is terrific. If flipping burgers can pay your living expenses, I would recommend to quit as soon as possible and search for a new job. Keep in mind that your life is more precious than everything else, especially a job.
I think you meant to say terrible rather than terrific.
The only solution to this is leaving.
Also, remember that HR is there to protect the company, not you.
This is true, but protecting the company may mean doing something about an abusive manager that creates liability for the company.
I'm not sure if your boss is the owner or simply a manager at your work, and I also don't know your location, but to me (not a lawyer) it sounds like you would have legal recourse against this treatment.
You should look into better help, its a monthly thing. but you will get like 4 sessions in a month for $150 iirc.
https://www.betterhelp.com/
That is straight up abuse and you should absolutely look for another job.
ah well, that thread has been made for this.
how is he behaving with others ? the same ?
is it a large company with possibility to change team so to avoid this dude ?
If I may, after long illness I thought I'd work simple min-wage jobs to get back into active life. Few things hit me: you get around the same amount of shit there. Bad bosses, bad colleagues. Imperfect working conditions. The difference is, even underpaid, you get more money.
Maybe that will help you swallow the bitter pill for a little while.
Best of luck
I had a scary similar situation. I continued to search for a new position and after four months, I was able to find something that was a much better fit.
I feel sorry for you. I wish I could help you. Do speak to someone if suicidal thoughts persist. Feel free to DM me.
get. the. fuck. out.
That sounds godawful.
The vast majority of bosses don't emotionally abuse their employees.
Why don't you switch teams ?
So.. why don't you leave?
> I don't have much saved up to just quit and search for new jobs full-time
> I've been applying every day since but haven't found anything
I am 'OK' in the sense that I like all of my colleagues and really do enjoy my work as a technical product manager.
What's not 'OK' is that a snake-oil salesman/professional bullshitter who calls himself an 'Agile Consultant' has embedded himself in the organization. He's an all-talk arrogant blowhard with a savior complex centered around rescuing us from 'Waterfall'.
What's not 'OK' in my personal life: I've been having a difficult time attracting and maintaining the interest of intellectually/romantically compatible women in the brutally competitive SF Bay Area dating scene for late 20s/early 30s geeky dudes. That's my fault though... I really need to start working out, eating healthier, whiten teeth, dress better, get a life outside of work, buy a car, and learn how to _have fun_ again.
Dating in SF is indeed brutal. I am a gay woman here and have the same challenge. Actually the hardest part is other peoples' flakiness and unwillingness to commit to things. And I'm not even talking long term relationship-level commitment, just, will we see each other again next week?-level commitment.
Anyway - keep working on yourself and what you have control over. With love, it all sucks and hurts until it doesn't.
RE: commitment, is this a generational thing? I live outside of SF and I wonder this. Some of us have settled down sure but there seems to be more than a few of us just kind of floating around.
I recently took a week in the Carolinas and Tennessee. After twenty years in the Bay Area the difference in the presence of young women everywhere was so remarkable that my wife remarked on it and asked if the place was heavily skewed female.
The Bay Area is hell for straight men dating. If I ever ended up single again I would move.
East Coast is much more heavily skewed female than the West Coast. It's something I'm definitely thinking about as I'm having the same issues in LA (though it's better than how I've heard SF is).
Well, the areas we were in weren't actually skewed female. They were just not crazily skewed male.
Thanks for sharing. Please take things one step at a time. Rooting for you!
Well I gotta say, I've worked in Waterfall and now Agile and I couldn't even explain how much better it is. I feel like I can actually do my job now instead of worrying every day about process. You won't know how much better you're going to have it until you switch.
Waterfall is a shackle around your hands and feet keeping you from getting actual work done.
That being said, if you have an Agile consultant who is not able to convince you (because he doesn't sound like a nice person to work with) that sucks, and I hope you can find someone else.
I totally understand Waterfall vs Agile. Story points, grooming, estimates, continuous release, potentially shippable product, etc.
I actually agree with the Scrum Guide [0], so my problem isn't with Agile; it's with this specific Agile Consultant who doesn't seem to "get" that process is often a proxy for talent/trust/respect and is just winging-it/BSing us all.
Imagine Bill Lumbergh from Office Space with a ton of two-day CS[a-Z]+ certifications who has never written a single line of code, designed a relational database, spec'ed out an API, etc. micromanaging every meeting while fundamentally misunderstanding the concepts of "collaboration" and "cross-functional teams." He knows what to talk about but has such a superficial understanding that he doesn't know why it's useful or when to apply concepts. Google 'Cargo Cult Agile'
[0] https://www.scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html
Well that does suck. I had the opposite experience with Waterfall and Agile.
My previous job (Waterfall) used such a heavy process that I was coding 10% of the time. Which is what I was hired to do. I'm a software engineer. Coding 10% of the time is unacceptable. But everyone working there had been doing that, some of them for 20+ years. It was like a prison sentence.
Luckily I was able to escape and got a fantastic job working at a small game studio that loosely uses Agile. The process is the last thing on my mind, and most days I don't even look at our Jira board. Maybe once or twice a week I look at it.
I hear what you're saying but in my experience, waterfall vs. agile is rarely the core of the issue that the company is trying to solve for when they bring in these consultants to 'fix' things. It just leads to more dissonance.
I got taught waterfall at university and included iterations and being able to go back the way. The only real change with Agile is less specification (not necessarily good) and more frequent iterations (good).
Though as I have said on here before no one can actually agree on what Aglie actually is, so maybe whatever you are doing is working for you, so that's good.
Appreciate the question. Not particularly - the work culture at my current employer is slowly killing me.
I have managed (through meds/therapy) depression/anxiety. The startup I'm currently working for has no work/life balance, which is severely starting to affect my health.
Engineers are on call all the time. Having to check email on nights and weekends is just a normal week now. There is very little task management, so everything is an emergency and needs to be done right away, regardless of prior tasks or schedule. My previously managed anxiety has gotten much worse from all this.
I'm burnt out, trying to make it another couple months to have enough saved up to take a sabbatical. There are days when I just want to quit and go buy a cabin somewhere and live there for a few years. I'm struggling.
Hey, I've been there! Still recovering from the burnout almost a whole year later in a new role.
I encourage you to try hard to set boundaries. Only be available after hours by direct phone calls, if possible. Set boundaries on phone calls, especially when you aren't on-call (i.e., "No, I cannot help with this right now, it will have to wait until work hours."). Stop checking into e-mails and work content outside of work. Stay away from politics, news, and other potential stressors for now. Don't think that you always have to exceed expectations. Doing "okay" is an option. Failing is an option. In a start-up, I'm not sure if this logic follows, but in larger corporations it absolutely does... I'd say I wouldn't want to work at a start-up if they didn't support that though!
In the meantime (and I know this is really tough to juggle), I highly recommend seeking out a different role if you can. If they're doing it to you now, they will always do it to you. You need to get out if it's not serving you well. There are better positions out there. No promotion is worth the amount of mental recovery you'll need to do afterwards.
That's my take coming out of a similar position... YMMV, take it all with a grain of salt. Also I'm glad to hear you're seeking out therapy. It saved my life during those dark days.
Best of luck, stay strong, you've got this --
I really needed to hear this today, thank you.
It helps to hear from others who have gone through the same thing, and who have come out the other side. Glad that you made it out, and hopefully I will too soon.
You offer a service to your employer and agreed a price for that service. Don't wrongly assume that just because he pays you, he can ask anything. Of course he can ask anything, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with it. It works both ways, and he needs you as much as you need him.
Make up your own mind of how far you want to go for which price, and stick with it. You have to set clear boundries in such situations.
Setting boundaries is something I've never really been good at, and definitely need to work on.
Thanks for the advice and encouragement.
There are ways you can do it with deniability built in. Switch off your phone. Then be "visiting family for dinner, out of cell range". Forget your phone under the cushion on the couch. Your nephew was playing loud music and you didn't hear it ring.
If the boss says that they need you available for emergencies or whatever, say that your therapist suggested you disconnect in the evenings or you will burn out irreparably, etc.
I think honesty is always the best solution.
Have a talk with your boss and discuss the current situation and how it is not managable. Work out a solution in the short term. What happens next is that your boss will totally not stick up to his end of the agreement, because he will assume you will fix it anyways. But then you stick to yours and let things burn. Then he gets the hard lesson, and you can put the fault in his shoes since it was him who didn't do his part. After that, things should be clear who does what.
In my experience this works, and my empoyers were always very happy to work with me. You don't need to be a pushover to get respect, you just need to do a good professional job. Expecting your employees to be available 24/7 is not profesional, teach him that.
Thanks, I've made a note on my phone which reads 'Let things burn', to review frequently. My employer refuses to set up an on-call rotation, probably to save money, but they will and frequently do call you 24/7 expect you to work immediately, for no additional compensation. This after a week of constant task switching plus a 3 hour total daily commute is just too much to sustain.
I still need to figure out how to deal with the frequent 'can you work next Saturday and Sunday?' with a thank you as payment.
Working in the weekend without pay seems like a problem of your employer and not you. By asking "can you work in the weekend because blabla" he puts that problem onto you. The trick is to point the problem back to him. For example you can say "seems like you need to hire another person, is that planned already?". Or "You need to put a better planning in order" etc.
Try to get concrete plans and dates out of him, and then use that as excuse to not do things "we agreed you would hire someone else at x, you didn't do that, and now I have plans for the weekend. Better make work of that soon!"
He will always try to find excuses, but try to steer the problem to him. Because in the end, it is a failing on his side that you need to work in the weekend, make it very clear it's his fuckup, and if he doesn't fix it soon, it will be him in shit and not you anymore.
That sucks. Personally, I would try to just do less, without asking. On call? Don't answer. They probably won't fire you if they're running like that because there will be no way to replace you. And if they do fire you, oh well, you were planning on quitting that job anyway. I would spend most of my time at that place applying to greener pastures. Interview during lunch, come back like an hour late, just tell them car trouble or something. There's no reason not to lie to people that abuse you.
Well said. This lines up with my personal variant of the golden rule.
"Do unto others has they would do unto you"
Would the people running the business have you increase their profit margin at great personal cost to yourself? Then it is completely fair for you to likewise attempt to enrich yourself at their expense. I no longer do the work that would be best for the business, I try to find myself in the work that would look best on my resume.
One thing I took away from being on-call at a company with lots of outages/incidents: management allows those outages. I know that sounds weird, but if there are constant lights-on problems, but every day management is prioritizing features/other work, the management is demonstrating that those outages are tolerable to them. Once I got my head around this, I stopped jumping-to at 3am like the world was ending for every single incident.
Nth-ing no social life and the related whines.
I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
I hate having eclectic or traditional "nerdy" interests and getting a similar reaction. I've been enjoying Classic, and I have a small online circle for the niche games/music/art I like.
I hate that I like these things in spite of the detriment to my social benefit to liking them. I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype or netflix-watcher or chronic-substance-abuser or extremely-self-improving-gogetter.
Work is okay most of the time, as long as it's about work. The environment is pretty lack and understanding. Having a non-work conversation is sometimes impossible because there's barely overlap, depending on the person.
Basically, it's just existential dread. That I have nothing to look forward to but more of the same of this, and the few people I have contact with disappear in one way or the other. Sometimes I ask, why bother?
> I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
> I hate having eclectic or traditional "nerdy" interests and getting a similar reaction.
It's not any different when an electrician, lawyer or a doctor wants to talk shop. Most people you will interact with don't have the same interests as you.
> I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype
Virtually no one fits cleanly into stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for generalizing groups, not individuals. "Sportsfanning" is highly correlated with a rich social life, but you are confusing cause and effect.
> That I have nothing to look forward to but more of the same of this, and the few people I have contact with disappear in one way or the other. Sometimes I ask, why bother?
All of the rationalization about software engineering, "nerdy" interests is leading you astray. None of those are barriers to a fulfilling social life. Your social life issues are due to any number of problems. It could be depression, anxiety, it could be poor social skills. It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections, but you have to evaluate carefully whether you are really unhappy with just a small online circle, or are you just worried because you appear away from the norm.
In any event I encourage you to think deeply about your situation. If you want to change anything, quitting software engineering won't help. It will most likely require a great deal of struggle. Depression and anxiety are not easily shaken off. Learning social skills like most things is harder later in life. I can assure you people in your position have improved, but only after taking stock of what is holding them back and seeking appropriate assistance.
> Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
I understand the point you're trying to make but this isn't a truism. It's a subjective opinion that wouldn't apply to any industry much less tech, which itself isn't specific to software engineering. This is an issue that effects all specialized fields of study, interests and careers. I don't feel generalizing the issue in a blanket statement that the problem is specific to the individual in question and somehow not related to circumstances beyond that individual's control is beneficial to the OP and anyone dealing with similar issues.
How many people can astronauts have honest conversations with about traveling in space that other people would understand and empathize with? Obviously very few, but it would be inaccurate and irresponsible to lay blame on an astronaut if they feel socially isolated as a result.
Later in your post you use a loaded, weasel worded statement that I strongly disagree with, which again seems to again lay blame on the OP for their honest and earnest concern:
"It could be depression, anxiety, it could be poor social skills. It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections"
It "could" be any number of things but only one perspective is being addressed. Implying that someone's failure to conform to our ever changing, opinionated and perceived social "norm" is the cause of their issues and concerns is not helping anyone.
> It "could" be any number of things but only one perspective is being addressed. Implying that someone's failure to conform to our ever changing, opinionated and perceived social "norm" is the cause of their issues and concerns is not helping anyone.
Uhh.. no I mentioned: "It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections."
Listen bud, a person that is well-adjusted in their social life whether that is gregarious or solitude doesn't post a complaint of this nature to an online forum. Something is wrong, whether it is the way the individual attempts to make social connections or their own acceptance of their needs and letting go of perceptions of what people think. And not all of that can be blamed on others. I didn't claim to know or judge which one it was.
And yes, most software engineers have a healthy social life, because software engineers as a population are not really that different from the norm.
> I don't feel generalizing the issue in a blanket statement that the problem is specific to the individual in question and somehow not related to circumstances beyond that individual's control is beneficial to the OP and anyone dealing with similar issues.
Problems that are beyond an individual's control are worth acknowledging but are otherwise irrelevant since there is nothing that can be done about them. Identifying problems that are within one's control are the first and only step to improving one's circumstances.
There were plenty of people here replying that: oh it's just other people, it's not you. Well that is partly true, but that's also bullshit and not helpful. I refuse to believe that someone complaining on an Internet forum about their social problems has exhausted all options for personal growth.
> Obviously very few, but it would be inaccurate and irresponsible to lay blame on an astronaut if they feel socially isolated as a result.
No, I say it is fully responsible to blame (I hate this word, but I'm trying not to be weasley) the astronaut if they feel socially isolated. Ultimately the only one responsible for their happiness and fulfillment is them alone. Sure they can blame the plebes that don't "get it" and wallow in permanent victimhood, but that doesn't do any favors for their psyche.
A lot of people, including astronauts are able to find joy in other things than space travel that they can then relate with a broader array of people (this may be "pedestrian" sports, or this may more like joining the demoscene for the Atari 2600). The thing that you and others seem to miss is that efforted development of broader interests can be an ends justifying means to counter social isolation. It's a responsible and mature thing to do.
To add to this comment, if you find you do in fact want to make a change, one way to help accomplish that change is through the Future Authoring Program [1]. It's basically a writing exercise where you write out what your life will be like in a few years if you make all of the changes you are thinking about. Then you write out what your life will be like if you don't make any changes at all. After that you have something to work toward and something to run away from. Depending on the person it can be a huge help.
[1] https://selfauthoring.com/future-authoring
Woah. I've been feeling very anxious and stressed out about the present and my future and feeling incredibly aimless. This seems incredibly like what I need (more structure) and a better outline.
Thanks!
I cannot recommend the selfauthoring program enough.
>> I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
> Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
Huh? OP's allusion to "mild-discomfort" when talking about their career field leads you to respond with the patronizing suggestion that "most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends"? That's an unhelpful and presumptuous piece of advice, especially considering it's directed to someone who is opening up about their current mental health issues
Heh, well I read it through, and I totally see what you're saying. It comes across a bit thoughtless if read as a direct reply to the statement rather than as part of the larger post below (which is totally sensible to read it that way). Unfortunately I can't edit it now, but the intent was to make a point that even for a software engineer: depression, social anxiety and isolation, etc are not "normal" and one should not resign themselves to that view regardless of stereotypes or perceptions. That statement isn't that important, I should have omitted it.
Agreed, and would add that latching too much to some idea of a categorized identity can be a crutch. Half of life is showing up, as the saying goes: if you're lonely, you have to get out there. I moved to a new city and joined meetup clubs, played pick up sports, etc. You have to move outside your comfort zone sometimes, there's no way around it; no one's going to swoop into solve this problem for you.
Besides loneliness, sedentary lifestyle, poor diet and low vitamin D3 can lead to low serotonin levels and therefore moodiness and loss of ambition.
> it could be poor social skills.
Is this an area where you can improve? My social skills are abyssmally non-existant... I am in a suprisingly similar situation to satokemas, all but the fact that I do not ever doubt "why bother" (I love the world) and I go to high school— I don’t work, that is.
I’ve been alone for two years in school now, although I just recently got one friend that is very understanding, though I guess I’ll still be alone almost all the time, this last year of school.
This is sad, I don’t like things being sad. Therefore I want to do something about it...
You can improve, as everything, with enough trying and failing :).
I did almost all of the school years mostly alone: I connected with very few people, even at university, mostly because i always had the anxiety of "what if I fail", "what if they don't like me".
After starting to work and after changing country twice (trying to change everything i didn't like about myself every time) the biggest lesson I think I learned is that basically everybody has always the same self-doubts, internal problems, etc. Everybody has a life as difficult and complex as yours, but you can just see the external side of it (the side they want to show you).
It's just not worth keeping up a fake image of yourself and never "risking" doing something because of fear of what happens, just live life doing what you love/feel like, and you'll find other people that like you for whatever you really are :)
In 5 years from now nobody from your school will remember even the biggest failures (and even if someone does, chances are you won't meet them again - if you don't actively work together to remain friends). So go out and try talking to new people, open up about what you really like to some trustworthy-looking people and see if they like something that you like too :)
Thanks, this sounds nice.
Complex things, us humans...
> Is this an area where you can improve?
Yes. As with everything else it just gets easier the more you do it. We feel at our most socially awkward in high school I think, in part because we're unfairly hard on ourselves. People are way more forgiving of social awkwardness than we think, stumbling is not the end of the world. For instance, how would you react if someone was socially awkward around you? Exactly.
Relax, have fun, sleep well. You don't have to be a talkative extrovert to be liked; I'm an introvert and never chat anyone's ear off except with things I can geek out over (music, games). You grow confidence as you engage more, but to get to that point you have to break out of your shell somewhat.
A medium always helped to relate to others in my case, be it sports, music or gaming.
In addition to the other things mentioned, I'll just add that once you graduate you'll have a whole new environment with new opportunities to make friends. In particular, if you go to college I would recommend living on campus: dorm housing tends to often be a built-in group of friends. (And if you don't like the crowd you end up with, you can always move for the next semester.)
More generally though, you're still young and have lots of new opportunities to make friends ahead of you. So while I definitely agree with some of the other replies, if you find yourself struggling still, just remember high school isn't forever and there will be new opportunities in the future; you just have to be ready to take full advantage of them.
My social skills are abyssmally non-existant
I think you mean something else, because you're here, publicly expressing your thoughts, pretty well I might add, and you've already engaged a few people in a conversation.
I'm pretty sure your school has people you can socialize with, but you probably just don't want to socialize with them. Maybe it's because you don't find those people attractive or interesting, just like some other people in your school don't find you interesting or attractive. That's normal.
Social skills are skills that can be improved upon like any other. A good place to start would be seeing if there are improv classes near you.
>>Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
Sorry, but I'm going to call [citation needed] on this. It's a rather extraordinary claim, and goes against both popular stereotypes and my personal experience.
This is confirmation bias. I don't think the stereotypes are as generally popular as you claim. My own observational bias is the countless "learn to code", "anyone can code" promotions targeted at youth that make no mention of social limitations.
Depression and anxiety are common in the general population. Social maladaptation is also common, though less so. It is unsurprisingly true that these traits are a bit overrepresented in the tech professions. But tech is not unique in this, the healthcare professions also overrepresent depression, for instance. In either case, it is not even close to a majority.
People that tend to be in these minority groups though by very nature isolate themselves and tend to only see that minority. At worst, online these can lead to some very troublesome echo chambers.
>>This is confirmation bias.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But you made the original claim, therefore the burden is on you to provide supporting evidence.
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#demographics
There's nothing there that indicating mood disorders, waking hours, or screen time even are wildly outside the norm for the middle class working population.
Anyways, I don't care about this fact too much. I'm going to continue believing that the majority of software engineers have fairly typical social lives, and my own observations don't conflict with this.
I don't care much about this, because the point I was making was that categorizing oneself in buckets like "software engineer" to justify one's misery is counterproductive, and even if 95% of software engineers were miserable I still think it be worth working towards that 5% rather than worrying about stereotypes.
> But you made the original claim, therefore the burden is on you to provide supporting evidence.
Not really. This is not some magical incantation that compels me to do anything, nor does it make what I said wrong. And tip if you want to win at online forum logic argument wankery (not with me though), perhaps appeals to "stereotypes" and "personal experience" are not the best place to start.
This crosses into name-calling and personal attack. Please steer clear of that on Hacker News; we're trying for something a bit better than internet default here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Translation: I don't have any.
Please don't gang up on another user.
As hamiltonc said, this sounds like an admission that you don't actually have any evidence. That's okay, but you should just say so, instead of personal attacks such as accusing me of "online forum logic argument wankery". This place is for engaging in discussion with others in good faith, which you have not demonstrated ("good faith" in this context means if you make a broad-sweeping claim, you need to provide evidence for it, at least when asked).
Your account seems to be new, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are indeed new here. Here's my "tip": please don't do what you just did. It degrades the quality of the debate and breeds resentment.
Nah, I have evidence. I just have no need to post it here when anyone that truly cares about "good faith" could confirm it with minimal research. To me, the notion that more than 50% of software engineers have mood or personality disorders is the extraordinary one.
Also, I'm not sure how badgering me with calls for "supporting evidence" after countering with appeals to personal experience (which I also don't care, I'm not here to make a federal case) is not supposed to breed resentment.
> I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
When I lived in Waterloo, everyone was a software person or related so it wasn't a problem. But I moved to a small city where almost everyone is a factory worker of some sort for farming or auto industries. When someone asks and I say I'm a software engineer, it usually stops there. Or they'll say something along the lines of, "oooh fancy". And if they keep asking about it they might learn, if I don't hold it from them, that I basically work in an industry trying to eliminate their jobs.
I didn't really think about this social aspect when I moved. Now I have to be somewhat dishonest with my neighbours as they all get up at the crack of dawn or go in for a night shift to make a living while I work in my pajamas from home for an industry trying to make them obsolete.
It's complicated and really aches when I'm confronted with it during social times.
If not automating jobs that could be automated was better for the world, then we would simply pay everyone unemployed to cut grass using scissors.
Productivity gains help the world by allowing more services and products to be provided at cheaper rates. This software engineer self-loathing I keep reading about is completely misguided, it's like you are expected to hate yourself for doing valuable labor.
> Productivity gains help the world by allowing more services and products to be provided at cheaper rates.
That can be true and still not ease the pain inflicted by unemployment. The poster is confronting the consequences of their work and you are suggesting The Greater Good should simply trump their basic human empathy... An alternative might be to accept both benefits and costs of said work and make an effort to mitigate the costs via charity, volunteering, support for social programs, etc.
I usually change my title depending on who I am talking to.
Someone well educated who understand software should know what being a "software engineer" entails.
Talking to my mum or someone that isn't technical, I am a "computer programmer" as its something I think they will understand a lot more easily.
Or if the conversation is more casual say a random person in a pub, then I will even say I am a "computer nerd", as I think it brings you to their level a bit more and shows you don't take yourself too seriously.
Yeah I know that feel. In a big city on the US East Coast no one bats an eye if you're a network engineer or front-end dev, but now, living in Western Canada, I feel incongruous. Everyone I know is in some sort of natural resource extraction (oil/gas/mining/lumber/farming) and, even though some of them are supremely well paid, it definitely feels like a class and culture mismatch.
I have a question that is tangentially related to the point you were making, but it's been bugging me lately, so here goes.
Everybody says 'the robots are destroying jobs' but the unemployment rate (in the US at least) is very low right now. If AI is taking all the jobs, how is the unemployment rate so low and the economy booming?
The possibilities I can think of: - AI is creating jobs at the same rate it automates them. The new jobs may not be as good as the old jobs, or perhaps they require people to totally retrain which isn't always feasible. But people need to make a living and they adapt because they have to.
- Lots of people have given up looking for work.
- For the most part, AI is augmenting rather than replacing humans.
- The full impact of AI on our society has yet to be felt, and we should brace ourselves like the rich techies building compounds in New Zealand.
What do you think?
In my specific industry we are replacing thousands of open positions nobody wants to do. Customers struggle to hire enough workers for us to ever be replacing humans. Walking around picking merchandise all day is a pretty inhuman career.
Software doesn't have to be about automating people out of their jobs. You could be writing software for drones or some shit like that which brings new pleasure or value or both to another person's home or work life. It is complicated yes but it's not a life sentence of working on bad stuff. Your expertise enables you to work on positive things. I hope you find the role that lets you work on those things.
> I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype or netflix-watcher or chronic-substance-abuser or extremely-self-improving-gogetter.
I think you just need to find more interesting people to talk to. It's them, not you.
Reminds me of a quote I found helpful: "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."
Quotes like that can be interesting because there's a opposing one: "If everywhere you go smells like shit, you should check under your own shoe".
That quote is fantastic, and very true in my limited anecdotal experience
> I hate that I like these things in spite of the detriment to my social benefit to liking them. I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype or netflix-watcher or chronic-substance-abuser or extremely-self-improving-gogetter.
I've known sports fans with no friends, etc... these are somewhat orthogonal things. There's also a lot of judgment in this quoted line in particular. Which fits with the general problem of just "I don't like where I am but want something different but don't know what that is." Unfortunately (but also fortunately!) the cliche answer is true here: the only way to change what you're doing is to change what you're doing. I can't tell you what hobbies or social groups or whatever, but if you're not looking for them, you're not going to find any. Nothing is gained without practice.
> I hate having eclectic or traditional "nerdy" interests and getting a similar reaction. I've been enjoying Classic, and I have a small online circle for the niche games/music/art I like.
Funny, I feel like I don't fit in, because I've never been a gamer (video or board or otherwise), don't like Sci-Fi, hate Fantasy with a passion, etc etc. I'm not a Trekkie or a Star Wars fan. I don't like anime. shrug There are lots of ways to not fit in.
That part stood out to me too, because I have the opposite social groups, and I have never felt excluded for liking those things. It's highly, highly worth making the effort to connect to people with somewhat similar interests, even if you're introverted by nature.
There's a community for nearly everything, and having people you can talk to about your passions goes a long way in making people feel less lonely, and has a significant impact on your lifespan itself: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/relationships-boo...
You should not feel social pressure over having traditionally "nerdy" interests.
10's of millions of people have played WoW over it's 15 year run and I suspect a large number of software engineers that were exposed to the original game as teenagers are enjoying playing classic now.
You shouldn't feel like you need to beat yourself up for not having some version of "normative" interests or not aligning with what you see others doing.
Finally, always keep in mind that people are generally far too worried about their own lives to dissect yours. You say you feel discomfort telling people you are a software engineer? Have you ever considered that the sports fans and netflix watchers first reaction to hearing that might be "damn, I wish I had my shit together enough to learn a valuable professional skill like satokema has"
Isn't "nerdy" interests just mainstream entertainment these days? Last I checked all the blockbusters are based on comic books and video games are the most popular form of entertainment.
Yes. Nerd became "cool" sometime in the late 2000's
> I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
Oddly enough, I recently found myself saying something to this effect, in a meeting: "I'm an engineer, a professional. I like to take pride in my work. I look at doctors (or civil engineers) at my age and wonder about the level of respect they enjoy and how they approach their profession. How did we get to a point where we (generalizing here) got to a point where we both behave, and are treated as borderline-savants who must be tolerated out of sheer necessity?"
Doctors and lawyers are in a position where folks need to go to them to obtain indispensable services that only they are legally entitled to provide. As coders we're part of the working class like everyone else. Maybe with some bonus perks like free food. Everyday people aren't required to respect us, because we don't have any real power over their lives. We just show up to our jobs in a distant office and build stuff to make life better for people in general.
It’s probably a simple answer: nobody regulates or gatekeeps the title of Software Engineer, so any yahoo can (and does) claim to be one, with highly variable results.
The other factor is that it’s certainly possible to be a first class software engineer while still a teenager, whereas I suspect there are no teenage doctors. So you have a population of very young, very capable engineers, who have fast-forwarded their careers past all the hard-won social skills lessons that others their age have been learning.
I always thought doctors were a special case as literally saving people from death on a regular basis lends itself to a bit of a god complex
The collapse of American education might have something to do with this.
Australian here; it's the same here. "Oh Software Engineer..." cue vacant look
Yep, it's a bit frustrating. I often talk to people in careers I know nothing about, so I ask questions. Then you have a conversation going. Sometimes it feels like people are afraid to be curious about software engineering, lest they get infected with nerdiness.
I find the same preemptive assumption from many people that they are incapable of understanding mathematics. The usual statement is: "I'm not a math person." This alone tells me how criminally warped their view on academics and mathematics must have been shaped, and how rotten we are at teaching concepts in a way multiple subsets of the classroom can learn at once.
I used to work in a place where I was surrounded by these "normies" for a lack of a better term. I had absolutely nothing in common with any of my coworkers. Maybe one of them because we both enjoyed expensive coffee, but that was superficial at best.
I was miserable for the year and a half I was there, and I found a new job where everyone is a nerd. I love every single minute of my "work" day.
Your environment can poison your self image, so leave and find somewhere that suits you better. Personal fit in a company is sometimes more important than the tech you're working on.
Same here, I've once switched from a bunch of 40-something guys in an ‘IT department’ to a web-shop filled with 20- to 30-year-olds ranging from hipsters to ‘family people.’ It felt like fresh air, and conversations went from caustic comments on the company's demands to everything under the sun—had to boost the reading habits to keep up.
Exactly the same experience for me! Conversation at my last job felt fake and forced, and everyone knew it.
I don't know how my coworkers still work there. Nobody else left but me. Are people just blind to their own suffering? What is the deal with that?
That's surprising. I think software engineering is one of the cooler professions now, perception wise. Embrace it and don't be afraid to be nerdy.
It's a lot cooler now, it seems because of the money + media exposure. There are still some old and new negative stereotypes, particularly against CS students
One of my friends recently took a job at Apple for less pay, and for a team she didn't like over a job at another company. She complains to me all the time about working there, while posting selfies and stuff at the campus. I don't understand why people do this.
"Cool" is a vague term. Pick some clearer labels against which to evaluate and you'll be able to have clearer answers.
Your issues seem to mirror mine. This is one of the reasons why I don't only occupy myself with being a software engineer. I like quite a lot of things fortunately, but I'm sure that if I had this less, I'd have been a better software engineer since I'd have more grit to succeed in my projects.
I hate that I love my work and the software I create more than anything else in my life.
Why do you hate it? I've found that we all fall along a continuum of "work is life" and "work is what I do to live" - if you're at an edge of that, it isn't inherently bad.
Thank you. It feels like it comes at the expense of other things.
As the other comment says, you concern yourself with the opinion of others too much.
While you're at it, you're choosing the modern-average crowd of people who do nothing interesting with their personal lives. Sports fans, movies, bars? Come on!
Easy first step: pick an individual sport and stick with it for a year. Check out your local bouldering gym or get into tennis, for example. Both of those have above-average, healthy, driven, interesting people.
>I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
Why do you feel discomfort? The only reason I do is because of a sense of guilt, because it implies I make far more money than the person I'm usually telling who is making small talk with me.
I'd wager that's the reason. People can't relate to it. Not even close.
I'm not scraping by in my early twenties with a futon trying to bust into a career with a full year's salary in student loan debt. I immediately started making what many people make at the tail end of what they'd call a good career. All while coming in just about whenever I feel like it.
My life is a joke in comparison and it's just a coincidence that I landed in it. Same with other guys I know. They happened to like something, such as making Quake mods and then stumbled into making 200k/year in 35hr per week, with maybe half of that 35 being YAML engineering.
Yes, this is exactly it. It’s hard not to feel weird when every day I’m surrounded by hardworking individuals who aren’t making nearly as much as I do. It just doesn’t feel right. Is the difference in produced value actually that great? I mean I sure as heck wouldn’t be able to do what I do without without the collective support of all of these people.
I know what YAML is, but what do you mean by YAML engineering? Fields of engineering with a focus on creating/editing YAML config files?
I think it was facetious. For example, lots of ops work is producing mountains upon mountains of YAML to feed into tools like Terraform just to provision and glue things together.
We are kindred in this.
I actually hate myself for knowing instantly what you meant by 'Classic', despite never having played.
And I hate myself for never having played, not because I wouldn't enjoy the fuck out of it, but because I let the fear of judgement from my social circle. Despite the fact that I don't really care for that social circle, I do care deeply what they think about me, and I let it determine my actions and what I allow myself to participate in.
We should know how old you are. What can be said to comfort someone's existential angst truly differs at 18, 28 and 38.
You clearly bother yourself WAY too much with what other people are thinking. Believe me, you'd be better off pursuing what you truly love instead of trying to fit into what you think is 'normality'.
Yes and no, being able to share your interests with others is deeply rewarding. It often enhances our enjoyment as opposed to doing it all alone.
Nowadays there's no lack of enthusiasts even in the smallest of niches. Just follow your passion and do what you enjoy, the others will be there. Much easier than trying to enjoy things you don't like, and building your social circles around that.
Of course even then you need to be active at least to the point of finding the others out there, but I'd still contest it to be the easier way.
This is true, but it's also nice to have that support circle be folks you can interact with face-to-face. It's so much better. Not that online communities aren't also great.
For some reason, not having someone else look you in the eyes with a similar amount of excitement just isn't the same.
Oh, I was also speaking of "live" socializing instead of online, and agree completely with you. I was just voicing my encouraging experience that even small-to-mid sized cities seem to have a surprising amount of enthusiasts for almost any given interest.
https://youtu.be/PHSaEPVSVEE
Do you live somewhere where theres meetups for your interests? If not, move somewhere that does. Mental health should be your #1 priority, you should have something to look forward to.
Every decently sized city I lived in, the 'nerdy' interests had a sizable population, and was even mainstream.
What is "nth-ing"? Do you mean, like, "mee too"?
yep, 2nd-ing, 3rd-ing, 4th-ing, ...nth-ing
>What is "nth-ing"? Do you mean, like, "mee too"?
"I second that!"
"I third that!"
...
"I n-th that!"
I can relate.
The existential dread you're experiencing is not your fault: normies will bore you to death 99% of the time.
Remedy: find yourself people like yourself and start spending time with them.
You should try the book Own your Weird.
Embrace your nerdy hobbies. I do and I have a wife, kid and everything. Nobody gives a shit man, just (try to) be happy. Do your thang.
I am in software development but my troubles are at home. This is why I am using a throwaway. I am bad with relationships. There two sides to every story but this is my side. I have a quiet agreeable demeanor. Its a cultural thing and a personality thing. Unless something is going to affect my life I tend to agree. I seem to attract the opposite types of partner. My partners tend to do all the talking which is fine with me. I am fine with most things except for the things I believe in then I am very stubborn. When I put my foot down it seems things just escalate. It seems to take my partners by surprise when I disagree or put my foot down and they don't take it too well. Now I am not sure anymore whether it is how I communicate that causes all my problems. I just want peace so I acquiesce even though I know deep down I don't agree. Well you guessed it, the peace doesn't last too long because I truly do not believe in whatever it is I have agreed to. The arguments and accusations escalate. I am heterosexual male. Typical items include me being told I am not caring enough yet to me I feel like spend hours listening to my partner and asking how they feel. I carry bags, fix plumbing, make the bed, sweep, occasionally cook. I am just not the flower sort of guy but somehow nothing ever seems good enough. I think I take criticisms to heart. I don't mind the off argument or criticism but what kills me is that this seems to happen every other day. I don't get enough time to recover my peace and self confidence before another bout of criticisms gets thrown my way. Its been 5 years. I love her very much, we have made some wonderful memories but honestly I cannot see myself living like this for the rest of my life.
I can relate somewhat. Even with the 5 year mark. 19 years in, somewhere along the line it seems we learnt to understand and love each other. Just wanted to provide the data point, such a thing is possible.
One thing that might be just the thing is to checkout the model of “non violent communication” by Marshall Rosenberg. It’s a nice way of framing things, especially with whom responsibility of feelings lie. https://youtu.be/l7TONauJGfc
I have difficult times in relationships also, and your post sounds similar to things I've struggled with - general personality / demeanor acquiesce with uncertainty or internal disagreement, very flexible most of the time until very stubborn in certain ways, not feeling like I can recover my peace & internal clarity before another wave.
I recently read the book Boundaries by Anne Katherine (https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Where-Begin-Recognize-Heal...) and feel like it was exceptionally eye opening. I always felt like I had a normal-ish upbringing (but how do you ever really know, outside of egregious abuse?) but there was very little to no modeling of positive boundaries and individuation, and it has negatively impacted my relationships.
I've also read some of Henry Cloud's "Boundaries" book, but it was a little too Bible-oriented for me, but that may not bother you. His writing is very clear and he had many insightful gems sprinkled throughout the heavy reference to scripture.
It also may be worth talking to a therapist or counselor (and I would suggest doing it just for yourself first) before trying marriage / couples counseling. In my experience with marriage counselors (admittedly not a lot), the relationship itself is effectively the client. The one I went to wouldn't even discuss with us that our marriage may not be right for either of us whereas a personal therapist is there specifically for you.
I'm in the middle of an amicable divorce after about 3 years of marriage due to similar reasons. I now realize that I've always been bad at setting boundaries and I acquiesce until a given situation is no longer tolerable for me.
My partners have always been type A while I'm more of a type B personality and somewhat quiet and introverted, but not overly so. Like you, i don't mind listening to other people do most of the talking, take the lead on activities, etc. I generally go with the flow. But in my marriage, I ended up giving up way too much space and when I tried to claw some space back it was too late - no matter how simple my requests were and how kindly I asked for them. For my partner, it was like I was upending the relationship.
Anyways, this was somewhat my fault but at the end of the day it was a toxic relationship and I was on the receiving end of a controlling relationship. Within just a few days of splitting up I felt like a weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. I was worn out from living how someone else wanted me to live rather than how I wanted us to live. Not to say it was a horrible relationship or nothing positive came from it, but being relatively young and childless I quickly realized this was for the best.
I went to therapy for a bit and it was helpful just to confirm that my feelings before and after splitting were normal. The main lesson for next time was to be better at setting boundaries from the outset. It can be hard to see these things when your in such a relationship. I saw my mom fail to set boundaries with my volatile father as an attempt to keep him from exploding, but I didn't realize until after the fact that I was doing something similar in my relationship.
I get the sense that your relationship is a bit like mine was. Not so horrible or traumatic that there's a smoking gun that would cause you to leave, but not what you had hoped for or thought you were getting into, and certainly not a relationship that has your best interests at heart.
*I created an account just to reply. Will check out the book recommended below.
I haven't read the book, but the idea of "love languages" seems plausible to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_Languages
It sounds like maybe your love languages are acts of service and nonjudgmental listening, and your partner's are...something else. I guess a mutually acceptable compromise might involve your partner trying to be more understanding about how you express love, and you trying to put more energy into the expressions that your partner wants. I don't know exactly how you'd get there, but the book might have something constructive to say, and couples therapy is often a good idea.
You are in an abusive relationship. Get out before it's too late (i.e. kids)
I am beginning to think so. I spent 3 weeks away and to be honest whilst I missed her I also felt a sense of peace. I guess 5 years is a long time and we have some good memories... Thanks to OP I needed to write out my feelings.
I wonder if you should just give her a copy of what you wrote above and see what happens?
I would have identified a lot with what you said, several years ago.
The key advice I'd give: realize you are sabotaging your own relationships when you don't tell your partners how you feel about something.
This is not helping them, you, or the relationship out. It may feel like that because there's "less" arguing, but ultimately you're just poisoning trust in the relationship.
As proof, why do you think your partners might react so negatively when you do put your foot down? I'd offer it's because they're surprised. Completely blindsided. Feeling like they don't know you at all. This doesn't lead to comfort and intimacy.
I'm not saying argue about what kind of food to eat every night, but there's a huge spectrum of communication options between "I agree" and "Let's fight about this." Use them. If you're annoyed by something, say so. If something makes you smile slightly, say so.
Real relationships are built by deepening trust by letting your partner know the real you. Not the "Sure, whatever you want" you. Even if you only have a slight preference.
Constructively arguing, without overly hurt feelings on either side, is a skill like any other. You're not going to get better if you only do it once a year.
And finally... express your own needs. If she isn't doing things for you too, then (a) you aren't being vocal enough about the things that make you happy or (b) she just doesn't care.
Sometimes people just aren't well matched for each other. But I think more often, one "quiet" partner never speaks up about the things they want / need / don't want. And so your partner (who is not a mind-reader) just... doesn't.
Thus, you're unhappy. She's unhappy that you're unhappy. Relationship falls apart.
tl;dr - Sometimes being pushier (in a respectful, active-listening, considerate way) leads to less conflict and more happiness in a relationship.
Don't be scared to be the real you. If they don't like that person, then either work to change or break things off. No one should have to live hiding themselves.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. You insights and advice have helped me understand better what is going on. I also feel better about myself in that I am not the only one who has gone through similar stuff. Something about opening up to strangers on Internet :-).
When it comes down to it, there is no one answer.
Because it's a skill (conflict resolution & communication) operating in a complex environment (your relationship).
Be self reflective though: if you aren't getting the results you want, then try different things.
> there's a huge spectrum of communication options between "I agree" and "Let's fight about this."
How do you do this in practice? If your partner wants to to something that you disagree with already, and both of you are sub-born, how do you resolve conflicts without someone stepping down and becoming unhappy?
It's difficult and very much intuition.
The first question I'd ask is why the one stepping down is unhappy? They're compromising and giving a gift to their partner, which their partner should recognize, thank them for, and respect. See (B).
I can only offer the following as things that have worked for me:
A) (MOST IMPORTANT) Recognize (and lead your partner to recognize) that the purpose of disagreement is resolution. Too many people get trapped in a cycle of argue - failure to resolve - argue. If resolutions aren't getting reached, then you and your partner need to talk about how you argue.
B) (second most important) Recognize that no one wins an argument. The purpose isn't to win. The purpose is to reach acceptable consensus. Agreeing on this weeds out a lot of toxic behaviors (like bringing up old arguments), because those actions don't make sense if no one wins.
C) Get better at initiating disagreements. Is this the right time and place to disagree (hint: usually "now" and "here" is, as putting things off is generally a bad idea)? Do you catch your partner off guard, or do you telegraph you're going to disagree about something (hints followed shortly by action is a good playbook)?
D) Get better at providing care after a disagreement. Do you revisit the solution reached, and reassure your partner that you feel good with the solution arrived at? Do you make sure to remind them you care about them, especially if it was an intense argument?
E) Realize that some people were raised with extremely maladaptive and toxic argument patterns by watching their parents. And changing these takes time and effort by both people. Arguments are like coding: there are a huge number of ways to do it, so choose one of the better ones than one of the worse ones!
Thank you for the thoughtful response, it’s very helpful.
Actually I think I am the one who was raised with extremely maladaptive and toxic argument patterns by watching my parents, and I’m struggling to change because I didn’t have the chance to see and learn other healthy patterns, because, well, disagreements usually happen in private.
Read the sidebar at /r/marriedredpill/. I think you would benefit from reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and When I Say No, I Feel Guilty. Don't be turned off by the red pill language.
On the subreddit now as I type this. Man you have hit the nail on the head though with the one line. I feel so guilty when I disagree and she doesn't see my point. Its like I want her to say okay I see your point but we never seem to get there unless it is her point of view. I want to stand up for what I believe in (for the record it is things like how to save money, stuff I can pull numbers for). I come from a family where we plan things long term. So we would sit and talk about a kitchen renovation for a year or two while we saved money and weighed different options before doing. Even then we would do as much as we could ourselves. She comes from a family where you just call up a designer and contractor and hand over the house. Trouble is we don't have the money to hire designer and contractor and we don't agree on how to save money so it comes across as if I am stingy person denying her, her dream kitchen. She isn't a horrible person I promise but we just cannot do things together and I don't know what to do.
Please watch out about red-pill forums. Standing up for yourself is good, being able to communicate and be assertive is good, but the underlying ideas of the red-pill community is to build relationships on games and dishonesty, with a nice base of sexism.
Absolutely. If anyone is looking for a forum that tries to address the reality of modern men's issues without making it into a zero-sum game of men-versus-women, I've been reading https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ lately, and it's actually really good. Yeah, I know it's hard to believe, but seriously. Take a look.
I would second this. I read most of "No More Mr Nice Guy", and while I found it helpful in some ways it also was just not as "clean" in my opinion as "Boundaries" by Anne Katherine.
MRP is pretty different in that regard. Its more about recognizing the ways society tells men to behave that don't actually help them or anyone else.
Thanks but no thanks. I read some posts and the guides they have. Superficially there's some good advice, but under all of that there is still the push to take relationships as a zero-sum game that you have to win against the other person with some tricks and rules. IMHO, it's just a recipe to create a toxic and maybe even abusive relationship.
Read the sidebar. You get one victim-puke on /r/askmrp. You will get your shit pushed in, but it will make you a better man. No one has the answers for you, but the tools are there.
I’ve read those, but unfortunately it didn’t change much my current relationship, same struggles as the op.
Thanks for taking the time to write about this and articulating what I’m living through too. Looking forward to the replies and the books recommended here.
As a team lead, one question I always ask in my 1-on-1's:
On a scale of 1-5 (low good, high bad), what's your stress level since we last met?
If my teammate says 4 or 5, I ask what we can do to bring it down to a 3.
We also address this as part of the simple assessment we do in each sprint retrospective.
My company struggles to define meaningful KPIs and OKRs. This is the one that's most important to me.
"i'm going to answer 3 every time because if i say 4 or 5 i am worried and anxious that you're going to fire me."
Welcome to impostor syndrome!
It's not just imposter syndrome. Theres reasonable concern that a company doesn't want to have to deal with illness/someone that cant hack it. I personally wouldn't want to make myself an outlier with this question, so I too would answer 3.
I guess you could approach it that way. I definitely treat job interviews that way (e.g. try not to be negative about a previous employer, even if it is justified).
If I were in a situation where I felt like I needed to approach interactions with my manager this way lest they try to screw me, I don't think I'd be interested in staying in that kind of environment. I guess some folks have overriding priorities where they are willing to endure antagonism and gotchas like that, but sheesh.
I wouldn't say it's antagonism or anything like that, just as you aren't antagonistic towards the gear in your alarm clock. Nevertheless if the gear started playing up, you'd get rid of it without a 2nd thought.
Obviously this is filtered through (emotional) humans, and job roles have differing fungibility, but the corporation doesn't really care about you except perhaps where it benefits itself.
I don't grant the validity of that analogy. People aren't gears of a clock and, when you say they are to a corporation, you are giving them a pass that is built on assumptions of an agency which they lack. Maybe legally you cannot pierce the veil, but ethically and morally a corporation is just other people making decisions and doing things.
If someone is treated this way, a whole cadre of other >people< had to be the ones to enact it. My previous statement stands - maybe there are overriding reasons to do business with people like that for some, but to me that's a hard pass. If you can't trust somebody to even be a decent human being, what can you trust them with?
"What can we do to bring it down to a 2?"
The number doesn't matter as much as doing anything one can to help.
eg, imposter syndrome. It has a cure. But being okay bringing it up and asking for help is required steps. This doesn't have to be with a manager. It can be with a therapist. People care, and if they don't, is it worth working in an environment like that?
Good point.
One way I could try to pre empt this is to say: "nobody was ever fired for answering 4 or 5 to this question"
But I'm not sure how effective that would be.
That question (and all variations of it) give me stress just thinking about answering lol.
I immediately begin to micro-analyze what the likely outcome would be for each scenario. Does these get recorded, and reflected upon to judge my ability? Will it spread? What will the 1on1 manager think of me? If I answer 4-5 am I not capable? If I answer 1-2, are they going to think I'm more capable than I am, and overwork me?
etc etc. Probably not a fault of the question / approach.. just how I operate. Every move in life is a chess move.. and it's stressful.
You'd think I'd be further along in life with that attitude. Yet, it's a fairly recent (~10years) adjustment.
I Am Declaring War on STRESS! Denholm The IT Crowd | Series 1 Episode 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTvMYQSl_w
We had someone answer 5 because they had just had a family member die... I asked him if he wanted to apply for bereavement leave.. he declined because he wanted to immerse himself in work.
I kept up with him until he felt at around a 3 and then I asked him to take bereavement then... he kept sending me pictures of his WoW Classic character doing quests during his vacation... love that guy.
I'm afraid I wouldn't believe you.
With rare exceptions, management wants to hear 'no problem' and that 'everything is fine'.
The next thing to do is a PowerPoint chart for the 2nd level managers showing names and stress levels over time with trends.
> With rare exceptions, management wants to hear 'no problem' and that 'everything is fine'.
This makes me so sad. As a manager (formerly an engineer), I want to hear about problems as soon as possible! I can help! It's my job to clear roadblocks, to help find interesting projects, to keep the team working well together for the long term.
It doesn't do me, the engineer, the project, or the team any good to hide problems. Such a bummer when managers push for short term results over the long term health of the team.
I should be more clear. When I say 'management', I'm really referring to 2nd level managers and up. From my experience, line managers are either the member of the technical staff who tells the lords and masters that everything is fine (and are mostly fighting fires or pushing a chunk of hardware through a pipeline) or they have three ring binders full of yearly company-supplied HR stuff. In neither case is there enough power to really 'run' things. Heaven help you if there's a completely separate creature known as the 'project manager'.
OTOH, directors/VPs (and other intermediate levels in larger firms) are not only the people that senior technical staff will run to for various reasons, but also are the folks who love to hear 'no problem' and that 'everything is fine'. Bringing them things to worry about is best done cautiously. In the final analysis, the worker bees are ERUs.
YMMV (very much so) of course. I can speak only for about a dozen companies. The world is a big place.
Companies loose more when people run into burnout and become sick or leave the company. If the company doesn’t care about your wellbeing, leave.
Also you should leave when there is more middle management then people who do real work.
This seems appropriate when talking about optimizing stress levels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTvMYQSl_w
Another angle is to declare from the start wanting improve the situation whatever their stress level is, and ask what your efforts should be directed at.
If they don't have much to complain about it will be low priority items, if they're in a 4-5 situation it will be a longer discussion. At least they might be more open to explain heavy stuff if they know you're there to solve them and not just analyse.
"...because they all understood intuitively that they would be fired if they ever did. Also, past performance is not indicative of future results."
So it would be zero effective. Employees cannot trust their employer to act ethically, at any level of management, ever. Full stop. Every measurement that could be used to influence management will be gamed. The employee can't know whether their manager is asking out of genuine concern, or due to a top-down directive to identify stressed workers, probably so they can be fired first.
If you want to know if the employees are stressed or unhappy, ask via an anonymizing third-party, such as their union rep.
"They were fired for other unrelated reasons, I assure you, but definitely not for answering 4 or 5" :)
If it's prefaced by this I would be even more scared. It's like a parent telling you "I won't get mad or punish you if you tell me the truth". Spoiler -- they always get mad.
Holy crap this is so true. Anyone who's been on the receiving end of "wow, if you are so miserable here, maybe you'd be better off somewhere else" knows what I'm talking about :P. Being quite frustrated cuz work shenanigans makes shenanigan makers quite uncomfortable.
That's why you should ask "From 1 to 5 except 3" and "from 1 to 10 except 7" because these values are "always" used as the default "I don't really care" answer.
I mean, what if I'm actually totally fine though and in a good place.
In my 20's I would have told you the truth. Now I would lie to you, because I've worked in places that used this sort of thing against their employees.
If it's a 1 or 2 I will assume you want to push it to 3 as well.
It's not great, of course, but there is huge potential downside to being honest.
Exactly. HR is never your friend. Join a union if you want peer support. Actually, just join a union.
It usually depends who you're being honest to. For example, it's usually a good idea to be honest with your manager, since you being successful makes them more successful. But anyone else who doesn't stand to gain from your fortune, you're right it's probably not a good idea to come across as vulnerable.
I get that this comes from a good place, but unless you have a lot of trust with your team then you might get a lot who will lie.
If I didn't trust my lead to not potentially think less of me (consciously or not), or even worse, to use my answer against me somehow (toxic environment) ... then I definitely would answer "2 or 3" even if I was a 5.
If your team doesn't have enough trust to answer this question there are bigger problems in your company.
That said, I've managed people who have mental health problems that results in high anxiety from answering these types of questions. As a manager / lead you have to know your employees and work with each of them as an individual.
Is it a mental health problem or just human nature?
This is great.
But the real problem comes when the stress is caused by the team lead!
at least they can do something about it!
An honest answer to that question requires the employee having a high degree of trust in the team lead. If they won't answer, the lead can't fix it, and the employee may feel more stressed by having to gloss over their feelings. That said, it's a great question to be asking if the trust is established first.
What if the stress is mostly from outside the job?
Some of it could be "solvable" (better pay, better hours, ...), but some of it may not (family problems, health issues, ...).
Is it taken into account or addressed?
A friend had some issues with things outside their work that were impinging on their work, and this was eventually brought up in an HR meeting. HR mentioned that their health insurance provides a number of therapy sessions for free with no co-pay, so they accessed that, and found it really helped them. They also agreed a work-from-home scheme. A few weeks later, my friend was doing significantly better both in work and outside it.
Trying to help with non-work-related things directly is a minefield, but ensuring that the employee has access to everything they need to succeed should be table stakes.
A good 1:1 allows the direct report to share personal information, because the personal stuff affects the work. Take into account: yes, because turning a blind eye stunts your ability to manage your team to success. Addressed: during work hours, only insomuch as official company policy and built-in supports apply to the person's situation. Individuals are free to offer whatever other support they feel is appropriate outside of work context (although a good manager will also take into account how this will affect their team now and in the future)
I think trying to solve personal (e.g., non work related) problems is a minefield. I would not, as a team lead, go there beyond a generic offer to talk. Most companies likely have standard policies for health and similar personal issues and trying to make your own policy on any serious issue there can backfire badly.
But job-related stress is there and is often solvable (e.g., a developer may be stressed if he committed to a a week's worth of work done in 2 days, etc.). My 2c.
I was never stressed before becoming a parent. My job pressure is the same but the combined stress is what hurts.
Flexible work hours, remote work and a strictly never-over-40-hours work week has been absolutely essential to be able to cope and still be a good parent (hockey practice weekdays at 4 twice a week for example).
One example of solving an unsolvable problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Wolpaw#Personal_life
Engineering manager here.
Solving stress out of work is not reasonable. But knowing about it and being flexible is. One key reason to understand this is that many people recommend vacations to people who are stressed. If stress is coming from outside then this has a negative effect and work may be an escape from whatever other issues.
We all have periods of work stress and life stress. When life stress increases a manager can choose to find ways to decrease an employee’s work based stress.
As a manager I’d consider tools to use might include paid time off, temporary re-assignment to work that is more rewarding/less demanding.
Even simple things like showing concern by following up to find out how those life stresses are coming along and being an ear to listen can go a long way.
If it is I imagine you do what you can to help offset it at work, but ultimately if there's nothing you can do officially I guess you just have to offer your support in whatever way they will accept.
You can also take this the other way. If they say 1, you can ask " What can we do to take it up to 3?".
Or if you work for a company that puts life insurance on you to profit from your death: "What can we do to take that to a 6?"
> If my teammate says 4 or 5, I ask what we can do to bring it down to a 3.
Why not 1? Is the only way to work effectively to be moderately stressed?
Taking small steps to solve big (especially personally existential) problems can be significantly less daunting that solving the world in one go. Obviously, getting everyone's stress level down to 1 would be best, but improving even a bit to get it down to 3 is a (gigantic) first step.
That makes sense. I guess I read it as '3 is the goal' rather than '3 is a step in the right direction.'
Actually, yes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=stress+productivity+curve
I use a 1 to 5 scale and every time the respondent turns it into a 1 to 10. I always get 3.5 or 4.5. I dont get it, what is that 1 to 5 is not fine enough?
Assuming that 3 is "meh" and 5 is "CATATONIC WITH AWFULNESS", that only really leaves 4 for what feels like quite a large continuum, if I feel at all below par. Having 4 options to fill the "below average" part of the scale, rather than 2 feels necessary to me.
It's the net promoter score all over again.
I don't know if there are inventories for depression, but every time someone tells me I'm a bit talkative I take the Young Mania Ratings Scale. It's a wonderful, wonderful tool:
https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale
Seems like an odd thing to complain about... I mean you are asking someone to boil down (often) and entire year into 1 of 5 numbers. I don't find it shocking that with such rough granularity people opt for smaller intervals than 1.
Are you trying to justify arguing that they're not actually at a high stress level? That doesn't seem very nice. 3.5 and 4.5 are perfectly within 1 to 5 so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
1-5 with half increments has 9 possible scores which is basically the same as 1-10. I think this is what is meant, not "people say 4.5/5 but nobody is really that stressed, they must be thinking 4.5/10".
Really wished my lead would ask this. I might suggest it!
Why don't you be proactive and suggest it anyway to your lead? I mean what's the downside!
He goes from a 5 to a 6
My company does this. Everyone's answer is always either 2 or 3. Anyone who answers 4 or 5 is going to get a talking-to and special attention and that's the last thing they want unless they're genuinely on the verge of quitting.
It's not a meaningful KPI where I work, since everyone's basically bullshitting all the time to keep the number low.
That sounds like a terrible place to work. I'd be looking for a new job.
Surely everyone who ever gets asked these sorts of questions just says what they think the person asking wants to hear?
That is an interesting question. How do you check its plausibility?
I was in a high pressured project for about 3 years and saw many engineers leave the project due to it. My fear that for the engineers still in it after 2nd year, their stress level of 4-5 has become the new stress level of 3. It has essentially masked the problem.
You sound like an excellent team lead!
Asking that question is the simple part. I am more curious what he actually does afterwards to reduce the stress..
I wouldn't dismiss the effect of simply asking the question. Often the boss can't do anything about it. But it's helpful for many employees to be at least heard.
I find that, almost all the time, in all of the places I have worked, I feel worse when a higher-up tries to make myself or the group feel less stressed. They have always, almost universally, tried to make it sound like it is not bad. Or they say, "Take time off, and do not respond to emails." And if you do that, the rest of the team gets crushed, and then you have an insane amount of work when you get back, which pretty much wipes out the time off (in 2 days or less).
Why would you respond to emails on vacation? If the rest of the team gets crushed when someone takes their allotted time off, there are bigger issues at play.
Exactly. Unless it is a temporary stressful time of the year (like a big ship date coming up), then coming back from vacation shouldn’t be resulting in the rest of the team getting crushed or you getting swamped on your first days back. In which case, i would personally postpone the vacation. I know that work shouldnt dictate personal vacation plans, but luckily it never feels this way for me, because big ship dates and crunch periods are so damn rare on my team. Worst case scenario i just postpone my vacation until the next month (my own choice), and then i go fully stress-free.
It never feels like i have to plan my vacations around work, and my previous manager was very strictly insisting on no emails or comms while you were on vacation, and i loved how it actually worked out.
Yeah, being a hero can hide the real issues.
Totally. For most humans the feeling of being listened to is already a huge step.
An inappropriate neck massage usually reduces the stress..
I actually had a boss who did this for me back in the 90s at a small startup... was definitely appreciated!
Relatedly, I've heard that in Helsinki they have some mobile saunas which are parked in front of businesses which are available for stressed out employees... not sure how true it is.
Would it be ok for you to share :
I think other comments in this thread have done a great job of pointing to some common sources and their resolution. I'll mention a few things I've found interesting in discussing the question over the years:
1. I am often the source of unexpected stress.
Sometimes it's something I said (or didn't say). It may be something that gets interpreted in a way I didn't expect. Simply clarifying what I meant or discussing the matter further usually resolves the more serious aspects of the issue.
2. It's frequently a great way to address issues that improve performance or productivity.
This is not the point. But a lot of times I'll have a developer, especially a younger developer, say something like, "I'm really stressing out over this user story I'm working on." Then we have a higher level discussion on design or scope or something else that's blocking them.
I also learn important business-related stuff I might not have known otherwise. "Wait, you're working on that? Why are we working on that?" Or, "Oh, cool, I didn't realize we we're doing that." And then we discuss that with the goal of taking the stress out of things.
3. Personal issues do come up.
Occasionally my teammate will ask something like, "Are we talking about stuff here in the office or home, too?" I'll usually respond anything goes but note that my ability to help is largely constrained by things I can control here in the office. But that includes, as other have suggested, a more flexible schedule, days off, or referrals to others that may be better qualified to help. A manager's ability to assist is going to depend to a certain extent on the culture and policies of the organization. But as others have pointed out, sometimes the most important thing for the person you're talking to is just being heard out.
I'm a little surprised by the level of skepticism exhibited in the response to my original comment. I mean I understand it. But if your response to your manager asking this question in a 1-on-1 is to immediately question your manager's motives, I'd recommend looking for another job. I'm not saying it will be easy to find one, especially one with an organization or supervisor who is necessarily any better. But as this thread shows, they are out there. And if that is your reaction and you're not exploring your options, I think you're ignoring a huge signal regarding your wellbeing.
I'd also say if this is a question you think it would help to discuss with your manager and you're not sure how to bring it up, maybe ask them the question.
Finally, my point in mentioning this is to hopefully encourage more leads and managers to ask this question or some variant of it and pay attention to the issues raised in this thread. If your reports are unduly stressed out, you're not getting your best performance out of them. You're not really doing your job.
And to clarify this isn't an official metric in any sense. It's really just an icebreaker to get to underlying issues that may affect performance and wellbeing. 3 is a step on the way to 2. 2 is optimal in my view. But if someone is a 1 and they're getting their work done, all the better!
I'm hoping it's a corrective to a lot of the braindead KPIs and metrics and just generally toxic practices that are out there. But, yes, something like that IT Crowd clip is a potential unintended consequence of this question in the wrong organization. To the extent you can make things better for yourself and others, please do so.
If I can help anyone, you can probably guess my gmail address. Feel free to drop me an email.
Maybe you could start by not framing the entire world in terms of numbers?
Is 0 a red flag also? :)
On a scale of 1 to 5, 0 is definitely some color flag.
If 5 is red, 1 must be violet. So I guess 0 is an ultraviolet flag.
Automatic drug test, no doubt.
I understand your intentions, but you should try to be clear with your directs that the stress you are talking about is work related only, and even more specifically, work related stress not caused by you directly.
Non-work stress can certainly intrude on work life, and you can help out with that as long as you tread very carefully.
Years ago, I noticed one of my reports had been performing uncharacteristically poorly, often late to work, making sloppy mistakes etc. I dug into it a bit in one of our one-on-one meetings and turns out he had a lot of things going on in his personal life, his girlfriend had been laid off from her job, there was an illness in the family etc.
All we did as a company was give him two weeks off work so he could focus on dealing with things, and he was back to normal, and went on to have a long and successful tenure at the company.
This worked only because we were a very small company, and he and I had a pretty good personal relationship and hung out socially outside of work, so he felt comfortable enough to confide in me given the opportunity.
yes i agree but this same thing can cut both ways. Source: have spent many years building healthy teams with many directs and direct managers. There is a way to broach the subject of personal stress in a 1x1 but an internet comment box is not the right place to suggest it imho.
I know burnout patients who until breakdown where " at 3". Hire a recruiter to ask them whether they are searching.. More honesty that way.
Only down to a 3? lol. That makes it sound like your goal is to always have some fire under them.
I feel like I'm fine. My job is OK. I'm not exactly passionate about the specific piece of software I'm working on, but I work with some very smart people who I learn a lot from, so that makes it a little less boring.
My employer has been letting me work from home as much as I want despite having no official work from home policy, so that's contributing to a general uptick in mental positivity. When I first started at this place I was commuting 1.5 hours both ways. I would leave at 9AM and wouldn't get home until 9 at night. It was destroying my will to do anything.
I've been hitting the gym 5-7 days a week and seeing some good progress. I feel very physically fit.
I've made some new friends over the past couple of months which I feel really good about since it can be so difficult to make friends as someone going into their 30s.
Despite all of this, I still just feel like I want jump in my car and drive around the country for a few months. I want to get out. I miss having adventures.
Very few things in my life feel new and exciting anymore. The only time I ever feel truly fulfilled is driving on a clear canyon road or hiking in the mountains.
I don't think it's too bad though. I believe that every person feels this way right around my age. I just need to make sure I don't settle for a boring and unfulfilled life like so many people are willing to do.
> Despite all of this, I still just feel like I want jump in my car and drive around the country for a few months. I want to get out. I miss having adventures.
If you don't have any responsibilities besides yourself, then why not. If you're good at what you do I'm sure they would give you a 3 month leave, or let you work remote on the road.
I did it when I was 27. No ragrets. Bought an RV and saw 36 states in around 4 months. Did a lot of hiking, biking, and sightseeing. I was working remotely during the time as well, had an unlimited verizon hotspot which worked great in 95% of places (had to plan ahead a bit). After the 4 months I was pretty much over it but so far I consider it my best life experience.
I have a girlfriend/soon to be wife that can't really go with me and I'd feel really bad stepping out of her life for a few months.
I guess it could be something where I take a few months off and do a few days at home and then a week or so on the road and then a few days at home, etc.
My girlfriend (now wife) went with me... she was the one that pushed me to do it, otherwise I probably wouldn't have done it myself. It took a lot of convincing. She was WFH so it didn't disrupt either of our work lives really. The stars aligned, most people don't have the opportunity.
What stops her going with you? If work, can she get any time off? Roughly where are you based?
Nope. I hate my current job and am trying to pick up some new skills in my spare time so I can switch, but its very hard to come home from my 9-5 and feel motivated to study a new subject. Progress is extremely slow and often feels hopeless. Any time I'm not studying I feel paralyzed by the stress of knowing that I should be doing that instead, and yet I'm so far from being done that I get no reprieve if I actually do sit down and study.
I don't think this is a unique situation, I'm sure a lot of people on this site are in a similar boat. If you're reading this, I hope you find comfort in knowing it's not just you.
Once I stopped being hard on myself, motivation came easier. It is still hard with a 9-5 though. Watch the negative self-talk. Negative reinforcement makes me less motivated and more guilty. Be kind to yourself and celebrate the little victories.
I also hate my job. Bad culture and unfulfilling. We will both find something better in due time, I can feel it.
I can see that as I often have too many side projects apart from my day job and never enough time. Best advise I would suggest is to either find a community of like minded people with whom you can work and be accountable (online or offline) and change the environment, for example I go to a Hacker / Maker place after work instead of coming home when I want to work on my side project. Hope that gives you some ideas and thanks for sharing your challenges.
I find myself un motivated to study/work on projects after work.
About 6 weeks ago I've decided to start getting up at 5AM and work on them before work. I find that works much better. I work on my projects for a couple of hours and get to the office about 8AM. Then that way when I leave the office I'm done for the day.
Are you in a position to quit or take unpaid leave to focus on the study for a few weeks?
Apart from the chronic daily suicidal thoughts, sure.
Ironically enough, always choosing the future-safe choice of education, jobs, friends and so forth resulted into me not really wanting to have a future at all. My new strategy of finding relationships which guilt me into staying alive seems to be working out though. Good times.
Longing for that plane crash or random heart attack I couldn't prevent. Of course I work out, don't do drugs (unless socially) and stay healthy enough to mitigate any such thing though. I can't be known to be a quitter, then they win.
Maybe it'll get better. Considering my age, chances are this is just a phase. If nothing else I'll probably be able to write a very cynical book. Not that I really care for anyone who would read it. Humanity is a cancer.
I'm so sorry. I'd offer a hug if possible.
1. I agree - living organisms are inherently cancer. Especially humans. However, I have come to accept without pain we cannot appreciate pleasure.
2. I have a great job, wife, kids, etc. but still feel depression and have suicidal thoughts. Do not feel guilty for them. Honestly, I might have killed myself if I didn't have children.
I also look at the world negatively. That's what I'm trying to change. Ignorance is bliss. If anything, work towards adding a rose-tint to the way you see the world. If we do that, and choose to make positive contributions, eventually we will outnumber the sour a$$-holes destroying us.
You can chat with suicide prevention online: http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineCha...
Thank you.
I've been through enough psychiatric care to know that the main prioritization is the welfare invested into me, not actually who "I" am. They don't care, and I get that. I've tried caring for those who are ill, it takes a heavy toll.
Always choosing to be positive is a main reason I am in the state I'm in. I was always smart enough to rationalize away any negative emotions and actions, which is why I'm not an addict, why I have a steady job and why everyone who meets me gets greeted with the biggest smile and great humor. But logic can't treat melancholia. It's highly illogical. And filtering negative emotions does not automatically leave positives, which I found out about when it was already far too late. Neutralization had become a habit. I wish I crashed in my teens and got help when it would be helpful.
But there's nothing i hate more than my own death, so I try to make the best out of it. I might not win all, but I'll avoid losing the game of life as long as I can.
I think it's fine to feel the way you do.
It's impossible not to have negative emotions sometimes, unhealthy even if you don't get the lows. I try not to let it ruin the highs for me, the good moments only happen so often.
I'm sorry you didn't feel as if psychiatric care is not invested in who "you" are. It takes not only an observant person, but also somebody who is compatible in a psychological and conversational way.
In a round about way, I've found the best cure for the desire to be understood, is to actually take time and understand others.
It is rare if not impossible to find somebody who 'fully understands me', but sometimes you can find that you and somebody else understands another in small but meaningful ways.
You’re depressed big time. Get professional help if possible. Rooting for you!
Check out the new Bill Burr special
Pretty great, but in my experience with a time where I was struggling/my boss was struggling/a coworker was struggling (different times), nobody is ever going to answer this question truthfully and everybody will think you're a threat for asking it.
list of things that in my experience may help if you suspect someone's not right:
* not eating alone
* eating at all, but the above makes it likelier
* when people give feedback that can be difficult, and instead of expecting the person to have an answer or excuse ready, build in time "off" with no f2f
* during difficult meetings or occasions where outbursts are narrowly averted, ask the person their opinion after. feeling listened to helps.
* if the problem is someone is working "too hard", 100% they kind of hate their non-work lives. They may actually also hate work but work is something predictable. Send them to a conference somewhere.
* people who have no friends will usually tell you so in exactly those words in the right circumstances. Believe them, it's a huge (huge!) contributor.
No. I’ve been really stressed out about work. This was actually a very cool job (8 minute commute, good coworkers) until about a month ago when a former coworker got promoted to manager. Suffice it to say he’s not cut out for the position. Our recent sprints have left me with fuck-all to do almost all the time while being massively overworked the tiny remaining portion of the time. Had a heart attack at work 4 weeks ago. I’m 29 with no other risk factors.
Add to this the fact that I recently discovered in my otherwise wonderful relationship that my partner doesn’t deal with polyamory very well at all, despite earlier expressions. I don’t blame her at all; you can’t know how you’ll feel about something until it happens, but it’s killing me. I don’t want to feel caged in, but I also feel like I wouldn’t enjoy any other relationships without having her to come home to. Lose/lose.
In addition, my increasingly aging grandparents (91 and 90 years old respectively) are requiring more and more care, and get more forgetful by the day. I recently found out they’ve been spraying windex on themselves for some sort of medical treatment? I have no fucking clue. Grandma always asks the same questions and I always give the same answers. I see them every Saturday to pick up my grandpa to get groceries.
Also, my actual home is a fucking mess. I’ve been letting a friend stay with me for over two years now and they have trashed one room and moved on to another because our AC is broken and the portable AC fits better in the window of the second room. Things have marginally improved on this front after telling them some things that seemed to get across how I was feeling.
I’ve been dealing with all this by eating massive quantities of clonazepam and gabapentin every day for the last few weeks, but my supply is running thin. I’m signed up for the motorcycle safety course in a week and I intend to get my bike the same day I pass. Maybe I’ll die in traffic.
Anyway, thanks for reading my novel.
No, I’m not interested in therapy.
> Suffice it to say he’s not cut out for the position. Our recent sprints have left me with fuck-all to do almost all the time while being massively overworked the tiny remaining portion of the time.
This seems like something to bring up/address in the Sprint retrospective. While I find that often retrospectives aren't very useful, this kind of quantifiable and actionable thing is exactly what they are meant for.
Wow, that sucks, sorry to hear. Sounds like your grandparents may need home health care, what's their living situation? They may benefit from further help than you can provide from your limited free time.
I am not the right person who can give advice. I hope things get better for you.
As a software developer myself, I always wondered why it is considered a stressful profession.
- Most of us aren't going to kill ourselves or others in case we screw up. The stakes may be higher for people working with safety critical systems, but such systems often have multiple safeguards.
- Most deadlines and time pressure are completely made up. So what if we don't deliver on time? It is not like the fate of the world depends on the new software version. It may be different for sysadmins though.
- We usually have some flexibility. We are not like bus drivers who will leave people stranded if we don't show up on time.
- Our skills are valuable, if you are somewhat competent, you are pretty much guaranteed to find work in your field. Maybe not a dream job, but at least something better than a minimum wage gig.
Maybe that's a combination of artificial pressure with a high concentration of people who have difficulty coping with stress. Anyways, I am not particularly stressed, and neither are most of my coworkers and friends working in the field. Some jobs look much worse to me: medical (people can die), construction (risky), art (highly competitive market), ...
The short answer is "Management".
Management is the different between you being given ample time to do a straightforward or decently challenging task, and being given a ridiculously small amount of time to do something impossible.
Management is the difference between you being supported in the work that you do and you feeling like you're on the edge of a precipice with potential freefall if you slip up.
Management is the difference between your work seeming like its a valuable contribution to a bigger picture, or that it's a pointless sisyphean exercise in futility cynically driven by profit or ignorance.
Management is the difference between you feeling like the pigeon or the statue.
Management is the difference between you feeling like your job is "programming" or "convincing a room full of ungrateful monkey morons that you deserve to get paid".
Management can be the difference between whether the obnoxious team mate completely totals your project or not. It can be the difference between whether you gain the right experience and be in the right position to get a promotion. Whether you work reasonable hours or whether you're clawing back time late into the night, knowing that you're putting your social and family life on hold to meet the deadlines that somebody else agreed long ago with no knowledge of what it would actually take to complete the task or deliver the project on time or to budget.
In short, sounds like you've got good management, dude. Good job.
> Management is the difference between your work seeming like its a valuable contribution to a bigger picture, or that it's a pointless sisyphean exercise in futility cynically driven by profit or ignorance.
Wait, this one is an objective property of the product you're working on, right?
Having worked in other fields, I think the difference is that our work is often limited by us. We can always do something more or feel like we should have been faster.
In most other areas the work either runs out or is limited by external factors (ordering parts, other people’s availability, ...).
In general I agree with you. However, I think that the "deadlines and time pressure are completely made up" aspect can actually make things more stressful. An example would be managers not understanding that they're being unrealistic. If you want to get a 100-tonne object from X to Y there are pretty clear parameters and it's easier to push back in understandable terms. If you want to refactor a codebase so you can do Z, not so much. I'm lucky in that I run my own business and generally get to choose my clients, but I've worked in large organisations before and I know how that kind of bureaucracy can complete crush people.
You can have unrealistic managers in any occupation.
My point is that it's easier to push back in other occupations.
I strongly disagree. If your manager is being unreasonable, it's wishful thinking to try and reason with him.
Considering the barrier to entry for software engineering is a lot higher than most industries, the notion that our managers are less capable of understanding than in other industries seems misplaced.
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I think software appeals to people who like clear, logical, black-and-white thinking. That in turn means the profession has a higher-than-average number of perfectionists. For a perfectionist, doing 90% of a good job subjectively feels much closer to 0%, so there's a lot of anxiety around things not being as good as they could/should be.
We must all speak for ourselves and not assume.
I don't think we (software developers in general) consider it a stressful profession on the grand spectrum of professions. It's just that when people talk about their industry or field, naturally the stressful parts get emphasis because they're on everyone's minds. Our jobs are stressful in the sense that many of us experience stress regularly, but I don't think our jobs are stressful in a relative-to-other-careers sense.
> Maybe that's a combination of artificial pressure with a high concentration of people who have difficulty coping with stress.
I think that this career is one of the better ones for people who have difficulty coping with stress. Not all software development jobs can be low stress, but it's quite possible to find a low stress niche for yourself doing software development.
You've been lucky, then, to work in a low stress environment and have yet to encounter a stressful one.
The nature of the work is less of a factor in the stress than you co-workers. Stress is created by people, and their personalities and management styles. When hiring, people tend to hire others like them, so you end up with a distinct company "culture", since people who match it stay, and those who don't, move on. So, if you start with a culture of stress in a company, it's going to continue in that direction, and if you end up there and don't fit with their culture, you will be stressed out, even if your colleagues might not.
I've been working in tech for going on 30 years now, and I've seen plenty of super-stressful workplaces.
Well, some places you have the threat of dismissal for failing to deliver. That can be pretty stressful if you have a family to support and no cash reserves or family to assist you.
This job is stressful because we deal with machines. Humans are also difficult, but I feel we're wired for that kind of difficult. Anything that depends on machine behaviour is somehow uncanny. Even a traffic light causes a little anxiety. Multiply that by the complexity of the machines we deal with and you get it. Not all the work in programming is equally bad, but the hard kind is usually very bad.
That's a great analysis to put things into perspective. When we are in the middle of Stressful situation, it's hard to take the larger perspective. I've also come to realize that time cures everything and every situation no matter how bad or even good will come to pass.
Its stressful for me because I'm running out of youth and I'm never going to find a mate :( The women just aren't attracted to a guy like me, or aren't interested in starting a family so much as poly-amory, drugs, revealing festival costumes, junk media, sex work, alcohol, or anything other than using their youth and looks for hedonism.
Edit: Obviously touchy, people actually have thoughts like this, how do we lovingly and selflessly address this and actually turn someone around rather than shaming them? (or is shame how we do it?)
Edit: How might you communicate about the thoughts that are going on in the head of suicidal tech workers, without everyone assuming that you are the person who is suffering that level of consciousness? maybe a disclaimer was all people would have needed to understand that?
I’m going to be bluntly honest with you. Your comment is a huge red flag. It sounds like you’ve fallen into the red pill/MRA trap where you are blaming women for not having a relationship.
Your description is not accurate, and sounds like a toxic approach where you are viewing women with a combative perception.
I’d suggest considering what areas of your life you can improve on for you, and maybe addressing the areas that are putting you into such a negative head space.
I hope you find your way to being happy.
Not saying it's healthy but these emotions are all tied into why we work and why we survive.
I am happy but these are thoughts I've had in the past.
Suggestion for ya. Cut out the social media, and... porn. It shifts your mindset in a very negative way, very gradually.
I can understand your perspective, and warranted frustration. Much of my childhood, I was raised to believe certain truths, only to be slapped in the face by a different reality later in life.
@McAtNite mentioned the "red pill/MRA" trap. It's common, to people seeing things that go against what they were raised to believe is 'right' or 'wrong', to become angered by that.
Try going to a festival. As a software engineer, I went to Sasquatch Festival in 2017 for the first time, and it was life-changing. I went again to the last one in 2018, and again, life-changing. Incredible music, amazing people, and no "deadlines", or deployment statuses BS. Just people celebrating what it means to be alive.
The judgmental side of you will fade over time and you'll come out of it a stronger person.
This is fantastic advice.
It sounds like you're looking for potential matches in the wrong places. If you're looking on Tinder you shouldn't be surprised that a lot of people just want to hook up. You might have better like if you spend time with more socially conservative groups. Churches often have social gatherings where you might have better luck finding someone closer to what you seem to be looking for.
This is sound advice but I can also see that it seems unlikely for someone with radical spiritual views.
What seems unlikely for someone with radical spiritual views?
Joining a church to meet a romantic partner.
Counterpoint: evidence of the behaviors you mention is way over-represented on the internet relative to its frequency in real life.
Absolutely agree
The women... aren't interested in starting a family so much as poly-amory, drugs, revealing festival costumes, junk media, sex work, alcohol
Yeah, it can't be you, it must be them.
Back to the topic. This is what I hate about the tech profession: how it perceives women. It is not healthy.
I don't think you can extrapolate the whole tech profession from one man's unhealthy outlook.
Why we work and why we mate are all part of our survival, and that's what generates these thoughts.
If I don't explain thoughts I've had and transcended in the past, that are tied to work and survival, what use is the conversation, am I shamed for sharing another aspect? or is it just too loosely related in your view.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
But I will say this: stop blaming women for your shortcomings.
Yes this is excellent advice
You should definitely find a new employer if your current environment is reflective of the comment that you were responding to. I can't even imagine working somewhere like that.
Imagine going from the professional setting to the setting where you have to attract a mate.
We're on a thread about a suicide prevention campaign, but people still don't have the sobriety required to handle the thoughts that drive it.
Every cup has a saucer, mate. You'll find someone.
I love this.
I seriously can't think of a single woman I've ever met who sounds like that. What situation are you in where that's normal?
It's not incredibly uncommon! I'm not saying it's normal or healthy, or even that this is my belief, these are just thoughts that I've had.
Apologies for not disclaiming
Edit: Tinder would be an example, depending on your location. Or instagram
Glad you noted this. I also came here to add that I also can't think of a single woman in my social circle (most of my friends are women) nor in my partner's that meets the earlier characterization.
It's OK to think wrong things. We all think a lot of wrong things.
It's important, because our brains are very good at rationalizing and filtering, to be skeptical of the voice that interjects those dark thoughts--to look for evidence that it's wrong rather than evidence that it's right.
Edit: addressing your edit. It's also important to reflect on how (and why) our experiential sample differs from a random sample. Apps, much like physical places, strongly filter who shows up. Just like you're statistically likely to meet different kinds of people at a library, supermarket, dog park, beach, state park, piano bar, orchestra, art gallery, or hackathon.
How do you turn someone around from this thinking though to realize that they can attract what they want?
Ooof. Man. Not any stripe of psych or therapist, but I'm not sure you can. I've never found directly trying to change someone's mind all that productive.
I think the big precondition is some combination of curiosity+humility. If they don't already have it, I wouldn't worry about much other than trying to create it. At first I wanted to compare this to opening a door that someone else has to walk through, but I guess what you really want is to teach them how to see doors.
I'm not really into street epistemology, but I read Peter Boghossian's book on the topic a few years back; IIRC he frames this in terms of creating moments of "doxastic openness" where people are willing to re-evaluate what they know. I'm probably torturing the text a little, but I think it roughly boils down to using the Socratic method to help people find things they think they know but don't.
It's a way of unsettling the equilibria or feedback loops they're in.
A thought that may help...
A bit over a decade ago I had a spell of depression that I sought counseling for, and for a few weeks at one point I crossed a little line into "suicidal ideation", and it was a very unnerving experience. My brain saw opportunities for death everywhere I went. I was morbidly amused with its ideas. I (thankfully) never felt any real impulse to take action on those thoughts, but the unnerving part was how rational it (and I) actually felt. I'll avoid details, but my mind was hard at work on very pragmatic details--solving a problem like any other.
I realized my thinking was working fine--but my perception was all askew--and it sort of snowballed into part of my worldview. I grew to find it more fruitful to see other people as roughly rational with varying degrees of disordered perception, and to imagine that we would probably make very similar decisions and think similar thoughts if our input streams were swapped. (FWIW: I'm not calling this an accurate model of reality, just a fruitful one.) I wasn't really aware of it at first, but it's turned out to be an empathy-cultivating framework. It leads me to imagine the preconditions that might cause me to think/behave as someone I'm finding surprising.
What? I can't tell if this is a joke, but what does that have to do with your job?
Why work? Why live? Why do anything at all?
I work because I love the problems I solve, I find them interesting. When I get tired of this, I'll start another career. I've got a few that I can't wait to try and I'm not sure which I'll do next?
I enjoy living, trying, learning, seeing, hearing. I love to go to live music shows, eat good food, travel, meeting people and learning what they know. I'm a little socially awkward but I do enjoy talking to people about whatever they are experts in. I love to build things, I'm not artistic, but I enjoy art. I like to be alone, and camp and swim and read. There's so many things I love to do in life I'll never get to them all.
So for the most part, I get up as early as I can bear, and I do as much as I can for as long as I can. I find very few things through out my day to be un-enjoyable.
My first attempts at having a partner were so focused on having a partner, that it was difficult for me or them to see through that. I had some unhappy kinda forced relationships. At somepoint, I relized that no one else can make me happy, and looking for that in someone else is a waste of time and a turn off. Instead, I make myself happy, I've found what I love to do and who I love to be. I'm fatter, worse in bed and have less hair, but I'm more attractive because I love myself, and I love life. That's something people want to be around.
So, when you're done feeling sorry for yourself, take some time to be the best you, be someone you love, learn how to make yourself happy without having to seek out your happiness from someone else. You partner doesn't want another chore. Life is just as hard for your partner as it is for you.
I've struggled a lot in the last few months in particular. I feel extremely isolated in my work. I don't feel like I have a good team environment right now. Everyone is segregated across campus which in and of itself is okay (I've done remote work stuff before, and been on teams where you didn't sit near each other) but nobody talks to each other, like ever.
And I feel like I'm missing expectations because of it, and attempts at fixing the situation just feel like it gets met with further isolation, which creates even more anxiety. I think it might just be a bad fit, but I also feel like I'm really struggling to keep up sometimes, because I want to do really good, well tested, solid work, but I feel like my deadlines aren't set with my input at all, they're simply dictated to me and I'm expected to just perform, on demand, no matter how much time it takes, and the workload doesn't feel right to me, or even similar to what other team members have to deal with. I sometimes get the feeling I'm the odd person out on the team, but its hard to say because there's little transparency. I even went as so far as to read past reviews from my previous job and they all remark about how well I am a team player, being open to feedback and new ideas I was, so I'm not sure why I'm failing so bad at this one.
It never feels like I'm satisfying my boss and my peers seemed to have iced me out.
Even if perception did not match reality in your case, that situation feels crummy to me. We spend too much time at work to not feel a sense of competence and accomplishment. Maybe it’s time to make hay in another field.
Isolation can definitely take a mental toll, I've been in similar situation before and what I did was just to make friends with my neighbors, even if they were not in my team or line of work, it gave me company to chat during break or at lunch. You may have to push outside your comfort zone, but I can say most people are welcoming of meeting new colleagues and making new friends at work.
I am OK, now.
In college, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after staying awake for three days and attempting suicide. I was hospitalized for a week, then had delusions and depression that persisted for months. Two years later I had a rough mixed episode. A year later I finished school.
I graduated with a social science degree and was lucky to get a customer service job in online retail making $13 / hour. I worked there for several years, taking abuse from regular American consumers. They would cuss me out for trivial reasons, like if I couldn't give them a discount on an item they had ordered if the price went down the next day. I held on because it almost paid the bills.
I managed to get a better customer service job at another company with a train commute. I studied coding on the train. I switched companies again, nearly doubling my pay, and kept studying as much as I could.
Years later, I'm a real Software Developer and I make a pretty decent living. More importantly, I've been asymptomatic for over ten years. I have a successful career and have built a great life for myself. And I'm happy.
Would I feel comfortable sharing my story in a professional setting? Probably not. It took some guts just to post this with a new account. I don't know what will need to change for the mental health stigma to go away. For now, I will probably continue to fly under the radar, maybe like many others.
Months ago a good friend was really battling depression. I wish I was better at helping people in need, I wish I could just find the happiness switch in their head and flick it to 'on'. But you can't usually fix another person. They have to do it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, far from it. Sometimes the best thing you can do is listen, try to understand, and help them help themself.
Or open the door for them to ask for help. Like by asking, "Are you OK?".
How did we even end up here?
As a greybeard, messing with computers has always been fun for me. Yet somehow, slowly the system has morphed it into a way to grind talented people into the ground with impossible deadlines and insane demands - to the point where we need websites like this.
All for profit business evolves that way. Doctors are working 20 hour shifts. Lawyers get 4 hours of sleep a night during discovery. Service workers get 3+ jobs to keep a roof over their head.
There is absolutely nothing about the incentives structure of for profit corporate business to care at all about the people actually doing the work, and in isolation they will do everything they can to eek every drop of productivity out of their employees they can.
Traditionally when switching jobs was less common employers would care more to maximize long term productivity over the short by not overworking people into mental illness but in todays regular turnover culture there is no long term incentives to bother with - put your employees to the grindstone and bleed them dry, then discard them for some new starry eyed ignorant youth.
Its the duty of society via collective bargaining (unions) or collective action (law) to reign in the predatory behavior of the profit motive but in the US (and thus most of the world due to US economic imperialism) that hasn't been happening or has been crippled for decades.
Guess it depends on how grey. If you saw garage tinkering turn into a new industry, it was probably fantastic. If you came up in the already industrialized times, a job's a job, right?
From my perspective I'd say that programmers, in general, have it pretty good, as jobs go.
That doesn't mean a programmer is going to be happy. You just might not be happier doing anything else, either, and you might even dislike it more. Imagine punching a clock, which is practically unheard of in the western software industry...
It's been good to me (my first home computer was a Z80 with 768 bytes of RAM, my first pro job was to go onsite and sort a blown bulb in a paper tape reader - that should say how grey :) ).
Punching in and out isn't so bad (I've done it), it's probably gone out of fashion because then people would get paid for all the hours they work :)
What seems wrong nowadays is how exploited workers are (and not just programmers).
> If you saw garage tinkering turn into a new industry, it was probably fantastic.
Probably, probably not. Maybe you know people who went on to became multibillionaires, whereas you're still tinkering and broke. I feel like I missed so, so many boats, and am in no position to catch the next one even if I could recognise it.
> Yet somehow, slowly the system has morphed it into a way to grind talented people into the ground with impossible deadlines and insane demands - to the point where we need websites like this
What is old is new again...
> Still more significant, authority over the freewheeling brotherhood of programmers is slipping into the paws of administrators and managers -- who try to make the work of the programmers planned, measurable, uniform, and faceless. [0]
[0]: http://www.softpanorama.org/Articles/Ershov/aesthetics_and_t...
> the system has morphed it into a way to grind talented people into the ground with impossible deadlines and insane demands
My experience with computers has been the same. That and music. I make it a major point to watch for flags of that kind of environment with any company I speak to.
I'm a realist and not every day can be the most fun ever—sometimes there's a bit of a grind—but it shouldn't be the default status. I would lose too much if they stopped being fun. I've had it happen once before and it took several years to find that fun feeling again. Life's too short for that.
I think as a society and an economy, we need a more holistic view of wealth and profit. Obviously a company where everyone just focuses on having fun and forgets about making money isn’t going to do well, but on the other hand, is a company that makes billions but where everyone is stressed and miserable really doing well either? It’s profitable in monetary terms, but not in ‘real’ terms if we include wellbeing and quality of life when measuring outputs.
The impact of a product on its users is also important—does it have a positive or negative impact on their wellbeing?
A business that creates negative happiness should be viewed just like one that creates negative cashflow.
> That and music
Given the subject matter and I happened to be listening to Avicii at the time, there was a particular resonance.
Haha nice. I've always come at it more from the analog side, myself. We all still get there, though.
The system can not grind talented people unless they agree to be grinded. At least in democratic countries.
Democratic countries which elect the billionaire star of the apprentice known for firing people as a form of entertainment. Plug your brain in.
So naive, I hope you keep that spirit with you as long as you can! The 9-5 grind sucks A LOT of people up and if you can escape it, more power to you.
But take one look at the traffic jams in LA and you'll see a much different story. All of those people had dreams, I'm sure a good amount of them never predicted they'd be stuck in a job they hate but there they are, wasting their lives away in a car that's sitting there polluting the environment on their way to a job that they hate.
No.
I can't do my job without taking adderall, I end up drinking too much to goto sleep, then slacking and falling behind and rushing to get everything finished for a deadline. Then the requirements change with no warning and I'm expected to have had both done.
My Manager and technical lead make development decisions even though they both have zero experience with any part of our stack.
I have a mortgage on a house that I don't take care of, and I work from home so I'm constantly reminded of my personal failures.
Most of my team is outsourced to another country, so I assume the writing is on the wall. But I don't have the energy to start looking for something new. Plus, since I work at home I haven't made as many close connections as I did at previous jobs.
I spend more time being mad at myself for not improving my life than actually trying to improve.
I don't invest any time in my hobbies or with friends. My friends don't even bother inviting me anywhere anymore.
I just placate myself with youtube and comedy waiting until I pay off my mortgage and my kid is self sufficient. Though when that happens I have no plans, or goals, or dreams.
Bleh, it could be worse, I make a very good living, and have a marketable skillset. I'll be fine, but it felt good to have a pity party for a second.
No, I'm really not okay. My current job is insanely unfulfilling, but I need to keep up appearances so I don't go bankrupt. I am saddled with a lot of debt, some of it stupid decisions, some of it valid, all of it soul crushing.
I moved to a new city for my current job with a referral from a friend. But I have struggled to make meaningful relationships here in the last year. This is also impacting my career as while there are a lot of jobs here, I have none of the networking.
Trying to work on a SaaS product I intend to launch, but I keep getting paralyzed by the scale of it all. I end up spending most of my time alone in my apartment.
To be blunt, my life is great on the surface. I am the cause of my own issues, usually, because I am very unfilled, depressed, etc.
You're not alone.
I have learned that single-person businesses often fail because we lack support and accountability. Consider finding someone to work with you. It might become a strong bond. Try meetup.com and "ProgrammingPals" on reddit.
Good luck.
State the city and someone might "volunteer" to take you out. You could go to tech meetups together; in general, it's easier to break ice when you're not alone in the room.
What city did you move to? I’m curious. I’ve moved between a few over the years and feel that the culture of some cities makes it harder to make friends than others.
No.
My work stress level is basically maxed out and has been for a long time. I'm not coping with it.
I can't sleep well, and at night my thoughts are filled with ideas of suicide. The thought of putting a gun to my head is calming, like I'd finally be able to relax. I imagine a lot of elaborate and violent ways to go, and these thoughts seem to be the only things that relax me enough to fall asleep.
There's no point to anything I'm doing, to any of the money I'm making, my future looks just like my past, I'm going to work until I die anyway, and I hate working, so why even keep going? I have literally nothing to look forward to. I think the only thing keeping me alive is the fear of actually going through with it.
I'm really sorry. I can relate a little about the work anxiety, but a lot about the existential dread.
While I don't have any pat answers for you, I'd like to encourage you about the existential anxiety you feel. If my personal experience is anything to by, you have a few reasons for hope on that front.
First, unless you've thoroughly explored a lot of world views, you can hold out hope that you'll find one that you conclude is true and which gives ultimate meaning to your time on earth.
Second, in my experience the acuteness of existential dread doesn't stay in the foreground forever. At the very least you might find relief by distracting yourself with video games, good movies, etc. But with some effort you can develop friendships that buoy your spirits and take your focus away from yourself.
I hope you play the long game on this. Having been in a similar place as you, I found that life can indeed get much better.
I've already put the effort into developing friendships... I moved back to my childhood home where I'm close to family and many of my life-long best friends. I see them all the time now.
It doesn't matter. None of it is making me think life is worth it at this point. So what, so I get to see family and friends? Then what? I go back to bed and want to die again.
My world view is mostly rooted in Camus's writing on the myth of Sisyphus. There's no point to any of it, life is absurd, but the daily struggles I go through are supposed to be enough to fill my heart.
Until they aren't any more, and any way out seems better than repeating the same shit day in, day out, where days blur together and I'm treading water until I die.
My thoughts aren't on my existential dread 100% of the time, but they seem to be my baseline. They're what I return to when things get quiet and I'm trying to sleep. When I fail at a project and I have to start over. When the weed wears off. When I wake up. When I'm not actively distracting myself.
I strongly recommend you seek out therapy in some form.
Heck, even something like using this free service [0] where you could offload to a stranger could help lift the enormous burden you are feeling and help reset your currently gloomy perspective about life.
Take care of yourself.
0: https://www.7cups.com/
I'm sorry. I hope you can take comfort in my experience that this unhappiness doesn't necessarily last.
Two things:
This too shall pass.
You can be happy for no reason at all.
HTH
> You can be happy for no reason at all.
I can't presume to speak for the OP, but a statement like that might not help. (I don't mean you shouldn't have posted it; just that it may not have the positive effect on the OP that you're hoping for.)
For some people with existential dread, the "no reason at all" aspect is the exact basis of their unhappiness. It's the sadness of nothing, ultimately, mattering in any satisfying sense.
I'm not sure everybody can relate to this kind of sadness. It's definitely near the pinnacle of Lazlo's hierarchy of needs; I'm guessing it figures into his "transcendence" category.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy in his toil.
> My work stress level is basically maxed out and has been for a long time.
It's probably really worth it to change your work situation—it might help with the other issues even if it seems unrelated.
When you're really stressed it can have a big impact on your thinking in other areas, even if you'd swear your thoughts are based purely on an objective assessment.
It may be that you make a change, work somewhere else, maybe even change careers—whatever it takes to not be constantly stressed—and then the other parts of your life begin falling into place.
Be patient with it, but if you get away from the stressful stimuli for long enough your mind will start naturally settling again and many of your problems may clear up.
When you say this for instance: > I have literally nothing to look forward to
It may surprise you some day that you couldn't think of anything at this time while answers are so easily available then.
Good luck.
Take some time off to care for yourself. Do some exercise and try meditation and CBT. Don't hope for things to fix themselves, and admit you are heading in the wrong direction.
It doesn't sound like OP's life is broken. He is actually OK. It is just that his life has no meaning/purpose for him. Most of life is a circus, I agree with him, but there are nice things too. Unfortunately he doesn't see it this way.
I understand where you are. I’ve been there myself. Know that you have value and meaning. You might try to reach out to others (friends, family, etc.) and/or make a point to interact with groups (volunteering, meetups, sports games, church, trivia, etc.). Spending time with good people can be very helpful. Please also consider professional help. All the best to you.
No, but I wouldn’t go into more details in a real handle. It’s good to see topics like this show up from time to time; I hope they chip away at the stigma that the US has towards mental and emotional health.
For those that struggle, a support network is critical. Lean on & spend time with family, whether that’s blood family or the friends you’ve collected who are that close.
I'm getting closer to OK after breaking that stigma.
I'd been working hard to maintain the appearance of being OK for many years, not even letting my support network know I was struggling...finally came clean with them and they've been nothing but supportive. Towards the end there, a lot of the stress had been just in keeping up appearances, which was stupid!
Also, OP, feedback for your friend who built the site - site scrolling is sticky on Android. I can scroll normally for a couple seconds until some JS loads and pins the menu at the top, then I can't scroll anymore. Suggest you stop messing with the scroll bar.
I'm kinda struggling right now. I'm a few months from graduating with a BS in CS, and I'm scared. Not scared about getting a job (I've had a few internships and have a solid handshake return offer from more than one of them) or “the next step” (kids? house?) independently, just the combination of all those things. How do I find a job that's is within a same commute distance, but also affordable? How do I find a job that will help me afford those “next steps?” How on Earth do people afford a house (I mean, $300,000 is more than 3× my expected salary, and where I am, that barely gets you a townhome)? The uncertainty of the future has really knocked my level of “okay-ness” down to like a two for the past few weeks.
I'm 3 years into my career and I can tell you I felt exactly the same way.
A few things:
- You don't need to buy a house outright, get a loan. The only big cost is just the downpayment (5-20% of the price)
- There are no shortage of jobs out there for you as a new grad, but there are very few good jobs (at least where I live, YMMV). It's ok to work somewhere you don't like that pays the bills for a year and then find something better once you have more experience
- Another point on housing: rent as long as you can because mobility is a blessing. You may find a fantastic job across the country, and if you have a house it will make it that much harder to leave. Imo, stability is for older people who know they're going to work for a single company the rest of their careers.
A lot of this is opinion, so take it how you will.
> - The only big cost is just the downpayment (5-20% of the price)
Also closing costs can be large. I'd long thought the big up-front cost was the down payment plus maybe $3k of inspections and closing costs, so I was surprised when I bought my place and had nearly $30k in closing costs, transfer taxes, etc up front.
You're young and this too shall pass. It's normal to feel anxious about things we are also excited for. It's a way your brain is planning for your life and trying to optimize it and, as a programmer, you probably have a brain that's pretty good at that.
If the thoughts are getting in the way of your life, for example causing you to stay curled up on the floor for more than five minutes, it's okay to redirect them. You're not going to "miss out" on your life's best decision by only allowing yourself five minutes to obsess on the future per 6-hour timebox. So, when they occur, accept the thoughts for a while, if something emerges that you think is a good plan write it down, and then after the five minutes are up get up and call a friend, do a physical activity, or put on a song you like.
If the same thoughts recur too often you can allow yourself to ditch them; tell yourself "I always think [that I can't afford a house] and it never leads to a good place!" and then make a conscious effort to think about how much you'd like to renovate a house or people in your life who have mortgages and still go on international vacations.
Above all, everyone I know who's over 25 has been there, and we're still alive. You'll be us someday.
> How on Earth do people afford a house (I mean, $300,000 is more than 3× my expected salary, and where I am, that barely gets you a townhome)?
Most young people in the world can't afford a house. They rent apartments or stay with parents until their jobs pay more and they accumulate savings in the meantime - or, alternatively, they shacked themselves with decades of debt and get a mortgage (not everyone is mentally built for that though). Also, many people never decide to buy a house, and just get a (cheaper) flat instead.
> they shacked themselves with decades of debt and get a mortgage
A mortgage is just renting a place from the bank at the market price of when you bought the house + some enforced savings. It's hardly a mill stone compared to renting for the same number of years.
An apartment with roommates can be a real joy if it’s in the right time of your life. Don’t rush the seasons of your life. Why worry about kids when you’re not even in a serious relationship? It’s life, not the cursus honorum.
If the houses are 300k in their area, I'm guessing getting roommates is entirely optional. For me the first time living alone in a studio apt was bliss.
A lot of people live their lives without having kids or buying a house. Make sure that anything you do is something you want to do independent of the desires of those around you that are trying to influence you into being the person they want you to be for their own perceptive advantage. Parents are often really bad at that after ~20 years and a whole houses worth of investment in you.
Its perfectly reasonable to grab your degree, walk off the stage, and take a backpack and rummage the wilderness for a few months. The rest of the world can wait, you always have time at that age, and there is no race - you just have to look at those twenty years your elder to see where trying to run the predetermined path gets most people. And the answer is usually hard drug use, depression, and stress related illness for the rest of their lives, maybe with some investors profiting quite lavishly off of years taken from them during their inspired years.
You're gonna be ok. You're starting your career at an awesome time and place for your skillset, and you will only continue to grow in value if you put in a little extra effort to keep learning and keep your skills sharp. Some thoughts:
- Set up a budget, and get into the habit of sticking with it. I just do the bare minimum, writing down (or putting into a spreadsheet) everything I buy with very basic categories: need, want, food. Make sure you give yourself enough 'wants' money, or it'll be harder to stick to. Put the rest in savings/investments, and then don't worry about the next step of house or other big purchases, because you'll be on track to afford them. - Don't worry too much about the specifics of your commute/living space/job right now. Choose whichever one you feel is the best for now, and keep in mind you're not stuck there. You can always leave for a better situation after a year or two. - Caveat to the last point: most employers will work with you in the hiring process. Worried about the commute? Tell them that, ask for a bus pass or an extra day of from-home work. Feel like you should be making a bit more than the offer? Say that. Don't be afraid to negotiate a little bit because doing that will get you much farther ahead in the long run.
Just some unorganized thoughts, but you've got this!
Moneywise, if you expect to make roughly $100k and can buy a townhouse for roughly $300k in your area, that's a pretty good financial position to be in.
just as an fyi, most people take mortgages for anywhere between 2 and like, 5 times their annual salary. I think my mortgage right now is about 3x my salary. So dont worry about that too much. I used to stress out a lot about ANY debt, but i've learned to cope with it a bit better. You're super early in your career (even pre-career), so you've got plenty of time to work these things out. I'm confident you'll do just fine with all of those things. commute can be tricky, but if youre in an area where housing is that expensive, i'm sure the public transportation is decent quality. Buses and trains work great for morning/afternoon work commute.
Pick another area to live. For example, where I'm at there are plenty of tech jobs (many in the financial, insurance, or older industry sectors, not many web companies though) which can pay 80k to 130k once you've established yourself after a few years. And a lot of houses that need a bit of refurbishment available really cheap (60 - 100k), or houses that are move-in ready but a bit older for 150 - 200k.
Nothing wrong with renting. Often times it can be financially better than owning.
Especially when you're still young and getting started. Getting a better offer in a different city/country for a renter is workable but if you own a house you've just started paying off with a few unfinished projects, you're pretty stuck there.
Now, yes.
A few months ago I went through a nasty breakup days before I was about to propose. I suddenly found myself completely alone having pushed all my friends away over the course of the six year relationship, homeless (in the sense of not having a "home" although I did have a roof over my head), and in a job that I quickly realized I had only been sticking with to support us because it was stable. I hated it.
Now I have reconnected with old friends, made more new ones than I can count, spent a lot of time with a therapist, and my mental health is much better than it ever has been.
On Saturday I start a several thousand mile drive to a new beginning in a new state with a new job that aligns perfectly with my skill set and comes with a nice 62% pay bump.
So for today, I'm doing alright.
Situation degraded over the time. I'm a beginning PhD student in a small lab in a top university of the country I live. Basically every of my projects have been cancelled. A paper I was writing and cared about for a small conference too. I'm forced to write something for a really hard conference about something that's not my idea on a topic I don't care.
I have a "special" treatment: I have to point most of the work days (3) in the middle morning at the lab (I'm a night owl). I'm the only one subject to this while everyone else is free to come or not to the lab (some student are almost never there). At first it was every working day but I rebelled against. I also said no the have my desk moved besides my day-to-day supervisor, in the researchers' room.
I've been recently been told in front of everyone that my research didn't advanced for 6 months (public humiliation). I've also received nicely worded email from the laboratory head about my (supposedly) inability to graduate. One small project of mine had been totally removed from the list of what's done with our partners, with no explanations, despite its usefulness, my ability to complete it in time. I've not being invited at some research events were most of the lab participated, nor to go meet field partners.
So I have zero academics liberty, I'm forced to work on stuff the I have no interest in, the projects & papers I care are cancelled, I'm charged with menials tasks, then I'm basically told I'm lazy... At least every other lab members are kind, some very supportive. I just feel like the black sheep.
As someone who had a less than ideal PhD experience, while exiting ABD feels like a failure in the near term, the long term impact is very low, unless you're desperate to remain in academia.
In short, you don't have to take the abuse - I'd look to change major professors.
Yep I want to stay in academia but I'll probably try to sell my own products one day. I could change lab I think, but I'm not guaranteed that the situation will be better elsewhere. Heck, on the paper this lab is exactly focus on the kind of stuff I want to do.
"not guaranteed that the situation is better elsewhere" - almost certainly it couldn't be worse.
Labs change focus all the time, even without describing it to the world. Why else would they have bumped your research?
> Why else would they have bumped your research?
Cultural context. While the research product (papers, mainly) is very international, how the sausage is made vary greatly by countries. While one of my topic of interest have decades of interest in Europe, it got zero attention here. Also I've noticed that most papers I read in English are basically ultra-specific narrow crap tested in questionable conditions, while stuff written in my native language try to address bigger issues and are more convincing (but also less data centred). Even the way of writing a PhD thesis is different: monograph in Europe, slapping three journal papers with an intro and conclusion here.
My solution will be to continue doing the minimal amount of work that I'm forced to do and write interesting papers with my external network of colleagues. It's of course forbidden by the lab rules by I found a loophole I can exploit.
Any reason not to leave?
Do you have other career options you are qualified for?
Yes: I've worked hard the last years to get the government scholarship I'm on, and moving in this country. I also want to work in academia, get the doctor title and I won't give up that easily. The situation is not as terrible as it could be (I would say 3/10 on crap scale), but the fact I cannot use my wide array of knowledge and skills nor pursue my academic goals and being micro-managed drives me mad. I hate not being given the opportunities to show that my work is good.
I have ton of options, the most obvious ones being developer or translator.
May I ask in which school are you studying?
Sorry but no. You may be my professor :p
Some similar experience in my own PhD journey. I think two things are likely the cause:
- Academia attracts sociopaths - Academia is slowly imploding, thus resources are becoming more scarce, thus folks are bitter.
Hang in there and gtfo of academia as fast as you can. My quality of life has improved immensely since I've left.
Not really.
I'm broke, as usual. I'm no longer homeless and no longer literally dying (health issue), but I can't say I'm exactly a happy camper.
I have $155 bill due in 3 days that I can't cover. My paycheck this week will be less than that. And then there's living expenses, like groceries. The cupboards are bare, again.
I do resume work, but I'm not good at promoting that. (And I blog, but my Patreon is underfunded. Ads are dead and I mostly don't use them.) I have personal barriers to making the business connections I need (health, gender, etc).
Same old, same old.
Can’t you make a payment plan on the 155$? Good luck and I wish you will overcome any hardship!
No, not in this case. It's my perpetually maxxed out credit card.
I also have a dead fridge I'd love to replace and numerous other things that I've put off because I simply couldn't afford them.
I've been poor long enough that I have actual poor people problems. It's a completely different problem space from what most folks on HN are dealing with, or what I dealt with for most of my life. I wasn't always poor. Combination of serious health crisis plus divorce were The Perfect Storm.
Is your resume work (I assume coaching on CVs?) purely online?
Yeah, it is.
I only asked in case that helps you remove the health/gender bit from your service brand, if those are things you feel limit your ability to make connections. Do you compartmentalise the aspects of your brand to ensure a clear pitch? e.g., the CV stuff is very separate from the San Diego blog or the health discoveries you've made over the years?
Thank you.
I'm in a tiny town. I don't see this being a big market for resume work. (Locally, I do website work very part-time.)
I had a former CEO on hiatus hire me while I was still homeless -- just before I got off the street, in fact. He was satisfied enough that his wife hired me a few months later, even though I had raised my prices.
I've had a few people with a lot of tech experience. So I imagine a lot of people simply wouldn't understand their resumes in a meaningful way. They generally say nice things about my work.
But I'm best known for having been homeless. When I try to tell random people that what I do is for very experienced people, it doesn't get believed.
(When I post on r/forhire, I'm generally downvoted. It usually doesn't result in work.)
I have no idea how to convince people that this is the type people I actually work for. Most of the individuals who hire me seem to know me through HN and hire me for their own reasons, but I have no obvious means to parley that into word of mouth or whatever.
I've done what I can to compartmentalize it, but my name is quite distinctive. I've made my peace with the fact that people can connect the dots with little effort and if they have a problem with those other aspects of me, there's not really anything I can do about it.
I wonder if you could try a standalone website/brand purely for the resume service to isolate the spiel? polishedresumes.com or something. Make that the tip of your spear. You can be known for other things, but if someone wants to recommend your resume service to their peers, they have a URL that is to the point.
That said, Homeless Resumes is a bit barefoot investor or whatever that brand is.
Thanks for the feedback.
Two years ago I wasn't. My mother had died a year beforehand and I was still getting through that. I had a boss who didn't accept "excuses" and was new to software and didn't know how to set expectations well. I wasn't exercising and didn't have a meaningful romantic relationship.
I'm posting this as things today are so different. I have a very supportive boss, a wonderful girlfriend and I'm happy almost everyday. Looking back I was very depressed, but time heals all wounds.
For those of you who feel helpless, please don't give up, try and take baby steps towards things that will make you happy and one day you'll wake up and things will be better.
I ain't, that's for sure. I recently quit my job (HPC) without another one lined up, due entirely to stress. Something had to give and I decided that if I wasn't able to manage the stress I wasn't fit for the job any more. Kinda snapped, took a week off and spontaneously gave 2 weeks notice on my return. Wasn't really thinking straight.
It's been a few weeks since I split and I'm starting to run out of money, but sadly have been mostly sleeping and am unmotived to dive back into the fray. I did manage to get to the doctor and get some meds, but they are only now starting to kick in and I no longer have insurance to get more.
I think it's probably too late for me but do yerselves a favor and pay attention to stress management and all that wellness talk. This all snuck up on me because I was too immersed in the work.
>> "... and am unmotived to dive back into the fray..." What is done is gone now.
Think about it this way: You were stressed because of that situation/job which is no more with you. So why continue thinking about it and not be motivated again for a new job which definitely will be better or at the least different than the previous one?
Get back in the job market and start preparing with a positive attitude towards your new job(which you will get soon). And this time you know how you can identify the situation before it gets too late.
So sleep more today/tonight if you want :-) but get back to the job hunting with full throttle starting tomorrow. Good luck!
thanks for the pep talk!
Just typing it all out was pretty cathartic, getting a positive response in return gave a lil burst of renewed confidence. thx :)
Right now no, the last couple weeks is where everything in my life is going down the shitter. I'm trying to just get on with it cuz my stoic nature just tells me I'll get through it eventually.
I'm in substantial debt for me but at the rate in which I earn I can pull myself out of it within 6 months, but I've been working on launching new companies and it's been a struggle. My 2 cofounders are waiting for me to finish my part of the process so they can go sell, I'm almost there. The property I was renovating has taken way longer than it should have but it's almost done. My car got seized by the police because I wasn't aware it was uninsured, taken all day to sort that and I'm not done yet. Clients are not paying invoices, I'm having to manage a number of other things at the same time, and the charity I run with my other half might be getting sued.
I need to find some work soon and bring in some money. So if anyone wants a remote php/js dev let me know. I know I've got a lot of things I'm dealing with but basically all of them are 90% there so life will simplify soon.
I'm really sorry for what you're going through. At the risk of sounding trite, I'd like to share with you two things I've found helpful on these much-worse-then-usual times of life.
First, I take comfort in knowing that the cumulative crappiness is sometimes just an unfortunately coincidental timing of multiple, crappy problems. And I know such coincidences will happen time to time. So that comforts me in knowing that it's not part of some long-term, downward trajectory in my life.
I'm almost too embarrassed to share this second one, but it really helps me so I will. When crappy times like you're having happen to me, sometimes the song "Mama Said" by The Shirelles [0] goes through my head. It always brings a little levity and perspective to my mood :)
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L842mz-tNBQ
Thanks for the words, and the song, haha. Yeah i'm aware that the issue is i'm juggling a million things right now and if i was only dealing with one at a time then any problems that come up would be trivial to deal with, but its just the nature of a minor thing going wrong on multile things all at the same time. None of these things i'm dealing with are unsurmountable if they're compartmentalised into 1 thing at a time, but when they're all at once, i get stressed.
I've just gotta keep going, stop anything new coming onto my plate (within my control anyway) and just deal with these things one at a time until the list gets shorter and shorter and i feel better. Its gunna take some time though.
Dude, sounds like you're spreading yourself too thin. Trying to launch multiple (two?) companies at the same time, plus renovating, plus running a charity, plus working with clients... When do you sleep?
My unsolicited advice is to say no more often - if an opportunity comes along but you're already overworked, you might need to pass on it.
Yep, i'm actually painfully aware that that is my problem, the issue is that my natural brain is to be a problem solver and I say yes by default to most things, but i am trying to shut down the amount of streams of things that i'm dealing with but i need to finish them rather than abandon them. I'm 1-2 weeks away from not having to worry about 2 streams of things and then i can shut down the other things as i go on. Its just a stressful time.
There are a lot of PHP/JS jobs in Toronto. Mostly working with WordPress. It's not in my sphere so I can't point you in any specific directions but if you're anywhere near there it's worth a look. Some do office/remote and some do fully remote AFAIK.
I'm doing fine.
I used to be much richer and healthier than I am now. I was also less happy and contented.
I experienced some health disasters and serious accompanying financial losses. I could list afflictions and disadvantageous circumstances, but I'm happier and more content now than I was before all of that.
During one of the particularly bad spells I turned to the writings of the classical Stoics, which I was already familiar with in a general way, because I was raised on the classics. I found useful tools there, and I used them to learn how to be happy.
Stoicism is less about metaphysics, and more about working out practically how to live a happy and virtuous life--how to be a good and happy person.
I assume it won't work for everyone, but it worked pretty well for me, and my grown children report that it has worked for them, as well. I think it's worth mentioning on the off chance that someone else might also find it helpful.
If you're curious, you can find a lot of resources just by googling "stoicism". The Wikipedia article is a decent introduction. If you want more specific recommendations, I suggest the _Enchiridion_ of Epictetus and the journals of Marcus Aurelius, usually translated under the title _Meditations_. There's a lot of value in Seneca, too.
You'll find that the ancients usually assumed the existence of the gods, but I'm personally an atheist, and nothing in Stoicism requires belief in any deities.
If you don't find it as useful as I did, I hope you find something else that works better.
I have been attending lot of interviews but not able to go through even the first rounds. I have nearly 7years experience in the industry. I mostly work on backends. I worked on iOS Android php node Java golang projects. My recent project included writing APIs backed by hyperledger using node. I also have a hacker news spin called 8hrs.xyz
Most of the interviews feel like a test. Not one of them gives me feedback even though I specifically asked for it. Lot of interviewers just ask questions from geeksforgeeks. I know data structures and algorithms are as important as other things. I know I lack grip on Ds and algos. Not that I don't like working for current company but its been 3yrs here. I'm not married yet. My mother always worries about that. No girlfriend, it's just Indian thing. I am going bald. My eyesight is decreasing and I blame computers for that. My last three meetings with girl's family side went sideways. It gives me anxiety to look at people talk about what happens if ones skill set goes obsolete. I used find it hard to stay feeling ignored by everyone and about the whole living. I did green and alcohol. After a long period of high I stopped all that and started going to gym, relearning mathematics with the help of YouTube and online resources. I took up photography. My nieces love me. I learned to ignore the bullshitters and started trying to live a good life.
Am I ok? Kind of. Not really. As a non-throwaway I'll refrain from elaborating. I think a key for me is sleeping well and relieving stress in healthy ways. These healthy stress relievers include exercise and mediation, but I do not engage in them nearly often enough. Writing here is a good reminder to do both.
More of a challenge as I grow older is finding those I feel I can speak with openly about anything. These days that's limited to professionals only, and if a therapy session or two get cancelled then I can become quite derailed.
For anyone out there struggling with what others think of you, something that gets me though the day is Derek Sivers's quote: "Be your unapologetically weird self." Don't get inappropriate in the workplace but remember that you bring something unique to the table (and that's probably why you were hired in the first place).
Quote in full:
“I gave a commencement speech in Minnesota few years ago [at the Carlson School of Management]. The core of it was to be your unapologetically weird self. I think authenticity is one of the most lacking things out there these days.” An excerpt from that speech: “Weirdness is why we adore our friends. . . . Weirdness is what bonds us to our colleagues. Weirdness is what sets us apart, gets us hired. Be your unapologetically weird self. In fact, being weird may even find you the ultimate happiness.” - Derek Sivers via Tools of Titans
I hope your able to get the sleep you need.
I am the CTO of a semi-successful startup but I believe, this is actually my biggest cause of stress and depression. I have been a software developer for roughly 8 years so I am still learning a lot. I was able to scale the company to handle hundreds of thousands of photos a day but the second I hired a more senior developer I find myself feeling like an imposter. I am always second-guessing myself, how I name things, how I am organizing my code to the point where I really start to become unproductive. I worry that the more senior developer is judging me or something, even though he is pretty laid back. In my personal life, I am spread way too thin due to debt from medical bills and a growing family. I find it takes a toll on me physically, which ironically, leads to more medical bills. I feel like I am stuck at my current company and in my current position. I wish I could get back to just being a software developer without all of the CTO stuff. I always feel bad complaining about these things because they seem so first-world, but it is constantly on my mind. I am just waiting for the day we make an exit and I can do something else.
I'm way less experienced than you but I can tell you without doubt: as a CTO you are not expected to be the best developer/technical person in your organization. You're supposed to have good enough skills to understand what's going on and "rockstar ninja 10x" (lol) planning and communication skills, to act as a bridge between the technical team and customers/CEO, and to make sure you provide your team with anything they might need to get their work done, including moral support.
A leader is supposed to bring smart people together, not be the smartest guy in the room.
You phrased this way better then me. I concur.
I'm really sorry to hear what you are going through, I can't offer you any sage words of wisdom. Just solidarity and recognition of the difficulty you must be having. I honestly have no clue what I would do in that situation. All I know is circumstances change over time. Also, you hired him because he is good, that speaks to your judgement as CTO. EDIT: Personally I tend to feel like someone who is more competent than me in a specfic area is secretly judging me, I've rarely found that to be the truth. I'm not a mind reader, but my brain tends to act like I am one.
Life's Plot Twist = Most people in C-level positions are "making it up as they go along". Don't worry too much if you are not doing a "perfect" job as a CTO. I consult for a various companies and it amazes me that you can do everything wrong (sometimes illegal) and still make millions. I try to convince these companies that if they did everything right, they can make so much more money. I too wish I could go back to being a developer. Being a consultant feels like you are getting paid lunch money to do everyone else's high-school homework.
The job of a leader is NOT to "do the right things."
The job of a leader is to make sure the right things get done.
It's a weird mental shift.
Not the best... I just got some gigs paying $20-25/hr. A drop from my average of $50 and my recent high of $80.
I know I'm a mid to senior level full stack developer but imposter syndrome keeps coming back. I hate interviewing and remote jobs are hard to find.
I'm also feeling a lot of burn out but I think that stems from quality and lack of a strong client pipeline.
My stack is Laravel/Vue but I find myself bored with that wanting to work more on node or go with hasura as a graphql api, or work on rust or clojure so I can learn to think and code in a different way. Or possibly move to pentesting or devops.
I think just joining an exciting startup could be enough to end some of the despair. I really miss working on a team. Freelancing is getting super old.
If you need a top notch developer hit me up.. Vue, react, Angular, Laravel, Adonis, Bulma, Bootstrap, Express, Postgres, Mongodb, GraphQL, Rest, Ruby, PHP, Python, Ionic. Framework, Cordova, Quasar Framework.
I'd also be willing to do project or product management.
Email: patrickwcurl@gmail.com Resume: https://patrickcurl.com/resume
Yes, but it took a lot of work to get here. I spent many years working at Uber during the hyper growth periods, and even before that a lot of startup life. It really took its toll on me, and by the end of it I was an alcoholic mess. I was lucky that after my time at Uber I was able to quit my job and re-evaluate my situation. It's been 1 year since then, and I can say my life is permanently altered forever. So many of my dreams are starting to come true, things I have been trying so hard to achieve since I was a teenager. I always fantasized about quitting my job and growing as a human, but I never thought it possible, or would be realistic. I am here on the other side now and would like to say to everyone here that it is worth a shot. Do some short term free-lancing after you quit your job, stay afloat. You are worth it. Your life is incredibly important.
Call me cynical, but my guess is that no one asking the question actually cares about the answer, especially if they are prompted to do so by a PSA. It's like those assholes who show up and tell suicidal people the number to the suicide hotline. They don't give a shit, they're just virtue signaling that they care about others in the least-effort way they possibly can.
I'll be pessimistic in saying that nobody replying to comments on a web forum would actually drive even 15 minutes to have coffee with you and actually be there in a meaningful way but its also an empathic question to ask because most of the time the OP is someone who recently really needed it and can recognize the value in asking it even if its not meant to be something with follow through. Its not necessarily from a selfish place, but few people have the resources to even try to hear out and actually do something about the probably thousands of us basket cases in this comments section.
Everyone has their comfort zone or in this context empathy zone, some people are very empathetic, some don't know how to show empathy or care towards others and that is just a personality thing, we shouldn't hold that against people. Think of it the other way, most people reading here and replying at least care enough to show concern and empathy, some maybe more empathetic than others. To counter your point about Suicide Prevention People - at least doing that is still better than not giving a shit about those who need help.
My point is that they don't really give a shit. I'm not saying that's a bad thing per-se, there's only so much a human being can genuinely care about and devote effort to after all, but such actions are shallow to the point of being somewhat insulting.
I feel the same way. Another example is when someone famous dies and various internet forums get flooded with "RIP" comments that mean absolutely nothing to anyone other than the poster saying "Look at me, I'm also part of this!"
I think that's just a matter of perception, my point remains that is someone really didn't give a shit, they won't even bother posting "RIP".
No... but I'm not sure what to do about it
I spoke with a therapist, but it hasn't helped me much; he basically admitted he didn't know what to suggest. Maybe I'm weird, and need to find the right therapist, which is what people suggest when I tell them this hasn't been that useful
What else can I do, HN?
I feel so lonely all the time. I don't have any close friends and people only talk to me at work about work. I do try to make an effort to talk to people about their lives and such - but they never reciprocate
I'm afraid that if I try to kill myself, I might make a mistake and could end up crippled. Alive, just with an even lower quality of life. That fear is about the only thing keeping me alive at the moment
I'm so tired of being alive. I just feel unwanted and unloved all the time
One of the best nuggets of advice I got from a psycholgist was this: call around, most therpists are open to talking for a couple minutes to a prospective patient. Find the one you gel with the most, and go to them, if that doesnt work, try and try again, until you find someone who fits.
You are not unwanted, I'm proud that you were able to reach out and talk about your issues here, that is often the first step.
When you want to give up, tell yourself you will hold on for just one more day, hour, minute—whatever you can manage
I started taking Banjo classes recently. Years ago I got into Spoken Word poetry. My city had a wonderful, encouraging scene, and I eventually was asked to participate in a huge museum event:
https://youtu.be/G11KTXc2xXc
Say I sucked at poetry though, you gotta try something else. Take some dance classes. Do a crash course weekend of dance classes to jump right in and not have time to worry if you suck or don't get it. I've had a lot of good friends through dance.
Go onto Meetup and find something. A writing group. A boardgame group. It does take effort. Sometimes you're really down .. but try and do it anyway. Don't let work be your life.
Take a pottery class, or something random from the continuing education center in your city/community. A sign language class, or archery, or something.
You just gotta keep doing; make an effort for at least a few months. If winter comes, you can retreat to video games or reading for a while; recharge. But you gotta get out there and try. Take all your vacation at once, buy a week of provisions and go backpack in a national park. Don't be afraid to do something a little crazy.
If you work for a company that wants 70 hours a week. Fuck'em. Do your 40 hours, 45 at most, and then go take care of yourself. That's what really matters.
Your life is meaningful today because a tomorrow will come where you will find what you are looking for. The future and the present are inextricably linked. I think that we all through descents in our life. Don't think less of yourself and don't give up. Look for new ways to find what you are looking for. Travel. Seriously, just pack up your bags and travel. If your job and your city aren't working for you just turn your back and leave. Try some third world countries. You will find their people endearing.
>Travel. Seriously, just pack up your bags and travel
I did. I went to Texas and you know what, I actually felt glad to be alive for the first time in as long as I can remember. Didn't feel that anywhere else (so it wasn't just the effects of traveling). It just felt like home ... in a way that my actual home - England - doesn't and never has for me
>If your job and your city aren't working for you just turn your back and leave
I wish I could, but how can I just up and leave when I don't have a visa? I can't live where I'd like to right now. I did some research, and I'm not eligible for any visas at the moment
I am trying to work towards eligibility, but it's really time and energy consuming
Not sure what are your hobbies (if any). If you have some passion that you're unable to share, I'd advise actively looking for people with a similar taste online.
It's usually quite easier to make friends from unknown people sharing a similar taste than to convert your existing social group to what you like.
Also, if you're kinda good at something, googling some pedagogy basics and teaching it for free in your spare time will make you meet grateful people.
>If you have some passion that you're unable to share
I like firearms - but it's frowned upon to like guns in the UK. There's nothing on meetup.com for that
I like animals - not sure that actually translates well into an activity to share with others though
I used to play online games during my time at school - even went to a few LAN parties - but I'm not so good. After a long time (maybe a year - or more), I just stopped trying as I wasn't having fun. I wasn't getting invited much anyway since people don't want to play with someone who isn't very good
>Also, if you're kinda good at something, googling some pedagogy basics and teaching it for free in your spare time will make you meet grateful people.
I can teach you to write code and shoot guns
For the former, I already give talks at my local user group. I suppose I could try to advertise explicitly to beginners? I usually teach intermediate-to-advanced people (especially FP, monads, clean code, security, encryption)
For the latter, nobody (around me anyway) wants to learn
Do you have any hobbies or interests outside of work? Is there something that you have always wanted to try but found it hard to start? Perhaps checking up on meetup or something like that...
Along the same lines, city intramurals ("beer leagues") could be an option too. In most places you can sign up as a single and be placed on teams that need more people. It has the advantage of getting you out of the house, doing something physical which can also help, and you get to consistently meet people? It's also harder to slack off and quit since you're part of a team.
That is a good suggestion. If you feel like you dont have interests/hobbies outside of work, try beginning something new, even if it's a painting class at a community center.
Like others have already said: try more therapists. And try different kinds of therapy, even weird stuff. Therapy is a very YMMV area, eh?
What are the different kinds?
I am considering psychedelics as I read Ketamine is suppose to be quite effective with depression. Might be a bit hard to do that though
Oh man! There are so many things to try...
The important thing is to go in without expectations and to keep trying different people and "schools" until something clicks or gels for you. Persist!
Good luck and God bless. (I'm available to help, just find any recent HN comment of mine and jump in.)
(In re: psychedelics. I'm not against psychedelic therapy but do your homework, and try other things first. "Set and Setting" are more important than the actual chemical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting )
First of all, what's your diet like? If you eat crap you will feel like crap. Conversely, if you eat well ("plant-based whole foods") then you will feel well and be healthy. (E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study )
There are physical modalities, such as: Get a deep tissue massage; Rolfing; Feldenkrais Method; Alexander Technique; various Yogas; Chiropractic (Your problems could be as simple as a pinched nerve, or a sticky tendon.)
Go see hypnotherapists: Past-life regression; Gene-line regression; Soul retrieval; Time-line therapy (rewrite your past to be a happier person in the present and future); Parental guardian reimprinting (make your parents better people so you grew up better!)
Then there are the emotional and "energy healing" therapies: Emotional Freedom Techniques (aka EFT: tap on your head and you feel better. How does it work? Who cares? It works.); Reiki (I'm a level III practitioner, I can vouch for it. Reiki is very real and powerful); Rebirthing (Orr's work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirthing-breathwork not the "Attachment therapy". Let oxygen be your psychedelic. In a nutshell, hyperventilation in a proper set and setting can lead to profound psychological and emotional healing, reaching even to birth trauma.)
Read "Prometheus Rising" and do the exercises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Rising
Try the weird shit.
Even if it doesn't help at least you'll be entertained. (and something will help.)
Woah, you weren't kidding! Thank you, I'll try to look into these when I get home
Find other therapists. Search around. Therapists are just people same as any other people. Finding one that clicks with you will help.
Not really. I love to work as software engineer but I'm already feeling negative side effects of the stress related to the profession. Having to seat for 8h a day doing intellectual work doesn't seem to be healthy because often you start to force yourself to remain productive after the first hours (and then comes the frustration). Sometimes I wonder if I should have done something else, with a lower salary but having a healthier life both physically and mentally.
As a tech person, I am treated like a machine, one that should be in a closet -- not seen or heard, they just want work output and they don't want my opinion about whether what they propose is a good idea or bad one (spoiler, most of them are astoundingly bad since non-tech managers are usually as dumb as a box of rocks). I hate my job and increasingly my whole life. It would be great to work for people who know the value of what you do, and the tremendous effort required to do things right, and to just ask the question asked here (with an obvious interest in a real answer and a compassionate ear to hear it).
I'm definitely OK. Compared to most of the world, I'm doing fantastic, and that's a thought that usually keeps me afloat when I'm not feeling so great. My work could be too stressful to manage, or I could get fired, and I'd still be OK because I have my freedoms in a wealthy part of the world and have a support structure that keeps me from hitting rock bottom if i choose to use it.
Things could definitely be better, but I'm working on changing that. It may mean leaving tech almost entirely. It can be a lonely place, plus it's full of arrogance and anal retentiveness and I've never completely fit in with it. (not saying I don't have my own share of arrogance) But I don't feel too bad about it because I don't have a sense of being trapped. I think a lot of people aren't OK because they feel trapped in whatever it is they are doing. I wasn't always a happy person, but I've found that having a mindset of "I can get out of this trap" has helped me in being a more positive person.
I hope all y'all who aren't OK do get OK. :)
I am the most OK I have ever been, and it's largely to do with being a programmer/nerd/scientist. I struggle with work/life balance, but only because I enjoy working so much that it's difficult to tell where life begins and work ends.
I'm final year PhD, so I'm not earning much. The reason for my happiness is very much the space I am given to work, the nature of the work (post-quantum cryptography) and not having a toxic working environment (which I've had before).
If your toxic boss was your toxic friend, you would still feel that dread you get when waking up for work, when going for coffee or chilling out with that friend. Don't put up with it just because your boss friend pays you. Be as cheeky and as ignorant as you can get away with. Teach the bastard a lesson. If you get fired, be even cheekier and make a fool of them in front of the entire staff. I was 16 when I was working under a toxic boss and I didn't have the gumption to do this. I wish I had.
I'm mostly OK. I'm happy at work, happy at home. But I feel like I'm on the precipice of royally f*cking things up.
My relationship with a colleague is dangerously close to becoming inappropriate. I'm happily married, with kids, and I don't have the need for anything extra marital, be it on a social or physical level. Genuinely happy. Yet, this work relationships seems to be progressing into something that, at some point, can be seen as an affair.
We're both fairly isolated in the company, and (mostly) only have each other to speak to about issues and pressure within the company. We also work on a lot of things together. This results in us spending a ton of time together, either working or talking about work. There's some social compatibility as well, but nothing mind blowing. We've developed an easy going relationship with a lot of shared experiences and vocabulary, resulting in an intimacy which, although I enjoy it, I'm not always comfortable with. Especially since he seems to be so easy going with casual touches and interactions.
I've made a point of prioritizing my spouse and kids, and not to allow my work relationship to interfere. I've set up sanity checks for myself to assess if I'm over stepping in any way (through looks, touch, prioritizing, day dreaming, whatever), yet the relationship keeps on growing deeper, and I have no way of stopping it. Short of quitting.
I don't want to quit. I love my job. I've worked towards a job like this for years. It took years of hard work, learning, networking, grinding and hustling to get to this point. I've invested so much in this job that it will take me years to build up to something like this again. The job allows me to live how I want to live, spend time with my family, provide for my family. Still, I know that I'll loose pretty much all of it if I step over the line. I won't be able to trust myself, I won't be able to ask my spouse to trust me. I just can not allow that to happen.
So that's me, mostly OK, but stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I'm not. I've been sick for 10 years now. Spent meaningful percentage of my 20ies in bed without having energy for anything. I've been away from work for a month now.
Every doctor that I speak to is in bucketing and hypothesis testing-mindset and none have been interested in the idiosyncrasies of my case. I have a pain in the right abdomen and back that is somewhat digestion related. I've been treated for H.Pylori before. I've done MRI, CT, ultrasound, colonoscopy and bloods and none are suggestive of anything specific.
I've exhausted all of my mental strength powering through this condition for years. I feel like I'm spent and every day is suffering.
Two months ago I developed similar symptoms: a persistent, dull pain in the right abdominal region combined with fatigue. CT revealed mild inflammation and slightly enlarged lymph nodes.
It's a difficult situation because these indicators are so nonspecific. (Fittingly, the pain includes the right hypochondrium.)
I have essentially no confidence in the capacity of medical professionals to act upon any other than the most common and obvious clinical signs. Maybe because of its association with high social status, the medical profession seems to preferentially attract the sort of rigid and uninquisitive mind ill-suited for this complex and nebulous problem domain. To add insult to literal injury, unless one has the resources to obtain highly individualized medical attention, symptoms will almost certainly be classified as psychosomatic after perfunctory screening fails to reveal some clear-cut cluster of abnormal measurements -- as if all internal pain was a product of the mind before the advent of medical testing.
Best of luck to you in finding relief. Reach out if you'd like to discuss this further.
Once a group of students from nearby UCI were touring our co-working space as part of some kind of conference. One student asked me a question I'd never been asked before: what are the occupational hazards of the programming profession?
I had a ready answer for him: depression, social isolation, and physical atrophy due to long hours spent sitting still.
He said I was the first person with a real answer to that question. Everyone else just brushed it aside since our profession does not involve working with heavy machinery or toxic chemicals or anything else you'd normally associate with risk.
Sadly, these are also considered "rich people's problems", so they are unlikely to ever get any sort of support from the public purse.
Yes and no. I just began a period of what I guess you could call voluntary unemployment, due to years of neglecting my mental health. I've had all the symptoms, but have been more than a little embarrassed at even thinking of myself as being depressed, let alone taking medical leave or time off for what I've never been sure is even a real thing - not depression in general, but myself in particular. Am I depressed, or just lazy? Is it not an insult to think of myself as sick, when there are people out there with life threatening illnesses who somehow carry on? Etc.
Long story short, I've always compensated by just working harder - working late, staying up late, basically the workplace equivalent of constantly cramming. I hit a wall recently, and decided to take time off to sort out my life - which in my case means actually seeing a professional regularly and beginning treatment with antidepressants / SSRIs.
I'm not sure where it will lead, but the absence of stressors is for the moment quite nice. I've been able to cut out a number of bad habits, notably self medicating with (insert substance here). I don't want to get too candid, but you get the idea. I still haven't built myself back up to a place where I have a real and driving motivation to get back to work, and I still struggle with what might be considered pathetic 21st century spoiled aspirations of self actualization, but I'm hoping that in this downtime I can work my way back to finding the motivation and meaning in life that I've been missing.
Not at the moment. Feel kinda depressed, and lacking any motivation to do anything. Part of me wonders if it's simple burn out from trying to do too many things at once (multiple side projects plus a full time job), the other part wonders if I've simply lost most interest in coding altogether.
Still, not as if there are many alternatives now. Software engineering is the only thing I have any interest in that makes money any more, and the only ticket to a decent lifestyle. Other interests (like writing, journalism, etc) simply don't pay any more because of the internet whereas things like video production and game design are like buying lottery tickets.
Regardless, it's getting difficult to sleep because of it all. I always feel like there's more I should be doing, while having no energy or interest in actually doing it.
I also feel I can't really trust anyone either, which probably adds to the pressure a bit. Just found no one I can work with or even truly empathise with, so end up doing everything for every project I work on myself. If I make a game, then I have to draw the graphics, compose the soundtrack, design every level, write every line of code and text and do every aspect of the marketing myself, and I can't be happy til each and every one is at a professional standard. This obviously means few things actually get finished.
So yeah, depressed, finding it hard to sleep, obsessed over perfectionism in everything, unable to trust anyone and always stuck feeling there's far more I should be doing and that I should be more successful at everything.
No, I'm not OK. Throwaway for obvious reasons.
Last year I lost my job and my marriage. I have since survived on occasional self-employment and burning my life savings; this month I lost the car, chances are I'll be broke by Christmas and will lose the house. My CV is atypical and hard to sell, too old for junior jobs and not good enough for senior ones, and I'm crap at selling and networking, but what else am I going to do?
I have not had a sexual relationship for several years now, to the point I'm considering paying for it. I probably have had a mild form of depression for a decade - since my kids were born, I can count the number of days I was happy on the fingers of one hand. One just keeps working and working because there are bills to pay, until he forgets what the point is. My friends and family are thousands of miles away. Some days I stare at the clock until it's time for bed. I love my kids but I hate how they literally diminished my life.
After downing the last bottle of wine, a few days ago, I decided I can't go on like this. I've booked a session with a therapist for tomorrow. I'll have to live on noodles to pay for it.
I wish there were a place where you could go when you feel like shit and everyone else is there for the same reason and you can talk it out and nobody judges you.
I wish I could offer you a real hug and ear.
My wife and I have split up twice before but the last time was the worst. It bankrupted me and we almost divorced. We lost a house, a car, savings, etc. Historically, I come from an emotionally abusive background and suffer from anxiety and depression.
We keep saying we'll go to counseling but keep pushing it off. We are together now and have agreed to make it work. My last job was great but the compensation wasn't enough. So, I moved on and rejuvenated my career + family. Recently, the company has moved to a sales-centric organization instead of the engineering-centric organization I joined. I want to leave. I'm unhappy but can't give up the benefits. I'm trying not to take it out on my children - who I love so much but also have a nagging feeling sometimes that they have aged me and made my life more difficult.
Plus, eco-future is terrifying.
We go to church now. It's methodist. I don't believe in a man in the sky but find the community helps my depression. They offer counseling (a third party) for free. And I now work with the youth - more community focused vs religious.
Good luck. And it can get better.
> I wish there were a place where you could go when you feel like shit and everyone else is there for the same reason and you can talk it out and nobody judges you.
A.A. and the others are exactly that, FWIW.
I"m not doing too well. Obligatory I'm doing better than many here, but I still feel that I have my own problems.
For one, I'm younger than many people here, so about a year from now I've got all of the fun of the college application process to look towards. This year I've started taking all of my classes at my state's university, which has been a very good experience academically, so for the first time there is a real feeling that my grades matter. This stems from two roots, first I have a feeling of imposter syndrome when it comes to learning and also I'm worried about being a class in which I have a hard time following the professor or the assignments seem unclear, which I am currently experiencing in one of my classes. Also, I still have activities at my high school before and after university, so I spend over two and a half hours every day commuting.
That ties into another of my problems, I feel like I over-invest in everything I do and it often hurts, though I have yet to be entirely burned by anything. Currently I'm on an FRC team, and have lead an initiative to put rookies through FTC and I'm the main student coordinator on that while feeling that I myself don't know enough or have the time to learn.
This post in itself has been disconcerting for me, I've always felt that my mindset is very similar to others on HN, just a decade or two younger, and I very much imagine being in similar situations to many here a few years from now. I'm struggling with questions such as whether I'll be able to get into top colleges, or even the worth of getting into such programs assuming that financial aid is hard to come by.
It sounds like you're a teenager taking some college courses while finishing high school? Or an early admit for college?
I did that too. I started taking college courses when I was 11. It really sucked when I blew out the curve in the class and 18/19 year old kids wanted to beat me up for it (I can't entirely blame them, but luckily the prof was cool and threw my grade out of the curve).
I ended up only doing college in summers -- I never took the option to go full time in college. Some other kids in my program did. One of them really wanted to get into CalTech, but they denied him, saying he wasn't well rounded enough. So the next year he joined every club on campus and tried to be President of as many as possible.
He burned out and had to take a year off from all school.
I tell you all of this to tell you that you are not alone, there are other people out there who have been there with you.
> I feel like I over-invest in everything I do and it often hurts
If that's how you feel, you should cut back. Burning out before you hit your 20s isn't good. If you do one or two less clubs or activities, it won't really make much difference in your life.
> first I have a feeling of imposter syndrome when it comes to learning
We all do, especially when you're in college at such a young age. But just imagine how all the older kids feel seeing you there. They probably feel like much bigger imposters than you!
> I'm worried about being a class in which I have a hard time following the professor or the assignments seem unclear
Go to office hours and ask for help. Profs don't look down on you for doing this, they look up to you for being responsible. And if you still can't do it, just drop the class. There is no shame in dropping a class that just isn't for you.
> I'm struggling with questions such as whether I'll be able to get into top colleges,
You're starting college early, you'll almost certainly get into a top college if you keep your grades up. I had a 3.1 GPA in high school, but simultaneously had a 3.5 in my college classes, which counted as a 4.5 for admissions, so I still got into Berkeley.
> or even the worth of getting into such programs assuming that financial aid is hard to come by.
Usually top colleges make sure you can attend. Harvard is free if your parents make less than $60K a year, and I think Stanford is too.
And I don't think the private companies ever turn down anyone for loans. Getting money for college is easy (too easy), the big question is if you are getting sufficient value for that money.
Hang in there buddy, and don't stress so much. Enjoy being a care-free teen without responsibilities while you still can.
I'm doing OK, my job/clients are great, but every day I can't help feeling like all I'm doing is making rich people richer. I'd like to do something real. Even contemplating a career change down the road once our savings/investments are in a good long-term spot. My wife and I are planning to start having kids in the next year or two so we'll see how that changes things.
I miss my old friends; wife is a doctor (resident) and due to that we've had to move multiple times across the country in support of her education (grew up on the west coast, now living midwest eastern time zone). The new friends I make here just aren't as fulfilling.
That said, as a tangent since I see so many people here mentioning their remote work, I've been doing that myself full-time for most of the past 5 years and it has been an absolute godsend. Don't ever plan on going back. Thanks to the flexibility afforded by remote work, I've been able to e.g. get my airplane pilot/flight instructor certificates, as well as start training our 1.5-yr-old dog (and myself) in Agility. I would not have had the time (or the energy at the end of the day) were it not for the remote lifestyle.
> The new friends I make here just aren't as fulfilling.
Someone once told me that most people you meet, when you move later in life, are acquaintances, not friends. I found that very true, in hindsight.
I agree completely. For me it's been the hardest part of this whole 'move for work/education' thing. Every relationship just seems way more shallow and I don't feel like I can relate on nearly the same level. It seems obvious, since you guys don't have the same stories/inside jokes/trials&tribulations.
It's funny because people say to us "wow you're a doctor and a software dev, you guys are just killing it!!!" but they don't see the cost that comes with it. Perhaps we can move back but after 8 years the damage is pretty well done.
No, I am not. I love the field I chose(CS) and the kind of work around it. But after working for a while it doesn't seem fulfilling on a personal level. I don't feel motivated to work on tasks if all I have to do is build some SAAS products where all I am doing is trying to earn more money and not really contributing to something great. When I say something great think of something like the 'Apollo Missions ' by NASA. They were truly groundbreaking in what they did and took the whole human race forward, while the stuff I am doing is nowhere close. I don't feel motivated to do it and it doesn't give me satisfaction.
In life, I can't seem to get attached to a person in a romantic relationship for a long time. I hate moving from one person to another but I can't find the one that will be perfect for me and me for her.
After all this, I started falling in a depression spiral and started having suicidal ideation. I really want to off myself, the only thing that is stopping me is my parents and friends. I can't inflict that pain on them but I don't want to even continue this existence.
I don't know. I think I am? I come home from work and kill some time on the internet. Often times, I lose interest in whatever it is I'm doing and go to bed. I have acid reflux, so that prevents from eating stuff that I like as well. I don't like SF a lot, but I care about career progression and opportunities as well. I used to play a lot of video games, but I stopped now because of...I don't know - just lost interest I guess? I wait for a message or a call from people I know to come everyday, but the only person that calls me is my mom. I deactivated my Facebook account right before my birthday to see how many people remember my birthday, and it was a pathetic 2 people other than my family members. I am an ICPC World Finalist, but I still failed to get any interviews with the companies I really wanted to work at. I guess I'm in a decent spot now, but I am not able to get over some elements of the past and keep going down the rabbit hole.
I hope things will change with time. I hope I meet some good people and make solid friends who I can hangout with. I hope.
Hey somasucks, people have delegated birthday reminders to Facebook nowadays so I wouldn't take that very seriously. If not for Facebook, I wouldn't remember my best friend's birthday even.
I think what you're feeling is ennui maybe? This odd feeling of dissatisfaction even though life is good on paper. This is something I feel too, and oddly enough, I know what to do to get myself out of such a situation. Meet more people, talk to the people I know more often etc. But I fall into the exact rut that you mentioned in your post - I come back from home not tired at all, yet the thought of getting on the phone with people is just unbearable.
Maybe it is just anxiety? I don't know. But the fix is more people-time, and also a diverse set of activities. Pick up a sport, learn singing, strength train at the gym etc. When you have a lot of different activities lined up, you are almost never dissatisified. Bad day at work? Well atleast my workout was good and I'm building muscle. Didn't go to the gym? Well I'm sure the weekend hike will pump me up.
The more you put yourself out there, the better the chance of meeting like-minded people.
EDIT: Ha, no one replied to my comment here either. Guess I'm a sad motherfucker after all. Onwards!
TBH I dont know.
I go to work every day When I'm home I hide into my digital life Work is 24/7/365 I have imposter syndrome, constantly, in everything. I was looking forward to "The book of mormon" for years when i finally got to see it the other night, i had to pretend to laugh. I'm an empty husk. I dont know that I feel anything much anymore.
Damn, The Book of Mormon was one of the funniest musicals I've seen. I hope you're able to find a way out of this.
I'll add to the list here.
No. I see a therapist but it doesn't help. Ultimately I'm burnt out. The startup I'm working at doesn't have good numbers anymore (not like any startup I've been at ever has). I can't get a job at FAANG (I've done their onsites about a dozen times). I live in the most expensive region in the USA. I only receive a salary from a startup and stock is obviously worthless. My SO is committed to a lifestyle of either A) not working or B) having jobs that will never pay more than what she consumes. I'm supporting her through college by paying all of our rent, most of our food (which she requires to all be wildly overpriced), all of every vacation, and so forth. She is getting a degree that has no correlation with a job. She has no plans to get a real job. She is committed to a hedonistic lifestyle where her lover will provide everything for her. It's utterly annoying and immature. But she's smart and I hope she will learn. (And try to care about my suffering a bit to change her ways)
The fact that this dynamic will never change is what kills me most. I have no hope. I'm under so much financial pressure to make two to three times what I am making now and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Moving just isn't an option because I'm perpetually unhappy with my jobs (due to a lack of pay). I need a lot of options available so I can keep bouncing before I get fired.
Again - I'm burnt out and it fucking sucks. I'm around the 1% of my age (29) and definitely the 1% of where I grew up - but it's not enough to stay sane in this dynamic.
Sometimes I wonder what I'm going to do. How will I ever escape my fate? Ultimately - I have no idea and it's why I'm so frustrated and burnt out. I have no path out and never will.
Mind you - my social life, hobbies, and everything else is practically non-existent. I am miserable every day.
Some tough love incoming:
1. Delete this post. Your feelings are valid, as are your struggles, and a lot of people are struggling with similar issues. If you had posted under a throwaway, this would be a great place for discussion. But airing these issues publicly with identifying information won't help anything. Your coworkers and employer read this website, this isn't something you need to share with them.
2. You need to reevaluate your relationship. If you want to provide these things out of caring and love, great, go for it. But if you are doing it out of a feeling of obligation, the only result will be resentment. You can't change someone, and in all (non-dependent) relationships, it only works if both people want to be there under the same terms. If the terms you want for a relationship don't match hers, even with compromises, then it probably won't work out.
3. You have a skill that few people have: You can build something once and sell it over and over at no marginal cost. And people like you are needed everywhere. You can make a change, in location, in job, in relationship, etc. and you will have the earning potential where ever you go to make what you need. (What someone else needs, that's another question.)
No way is that a healthy relationship. I would not stay in it based on your description. Sounds like hell.
You do have reason to have hope since you are smart enough to plan how to move on from existing work etc. Perhaps explore how to get out of your current hell hole and into a better life?
You're placing a lot of blame on your SO. Is it possible that she could get a job that carries more financial weight or be convinced to move to a lower COL area? If not is there a reason why you can't or won't leave her?
Get out of that toxic relationship if it's not what you want (which it sounds like it isn't).
Replace that relationship with a social life that you enjoy, friends that care about you, and be around people that actually make you happy.
Get far away from this narcissistic girl. Now. Then get some mental distance, and recover from the abuse you have suffered. Get a different (better) therapist. Do not delay. Much luck!
Yes, I am okay. I realized a few things this year.
First of all, I live in India. I will describe what I have experienced and seen. Most of the young developers who are passionate about the tech they don't get the chance to grow. Plus they are getting paid around $700 a month on average. once you have 5+ years of experience and you still getting paid $700. it's not gonna play out well for you. on top, you also have to deal with deadlines. most of them they quit their job and start there owns consulting or move on (now know why people prefer government job over tech. less stress and no-layoff plus good pay).
once who make $3000 a month. their work-life balance is just shit. most of them do contract work for us based clients.
in the past few days, I talked to 2 people they both make around $700 a month. one guy is working with elixir he has like 6+ years of experience in PHP, Java and some work in ROR. I am not saying that he is good or bad. I am just stating what I know.
Where I live it costs around 100000 USD to own a normal house. and one cannot dream of owning a house with that pay.
just to understand the business work. I talked to a guy who owns a small food stall about how much he makes. he said he makes more than $700 a month.
I will talk a bit about my self. I work as a full-stack developer for 8 years now. also, I am self-taught. I was still getting paid around $700. then I simply quit because of the deadlines. plus I found out that in some (corporation) anyone who just gets in makes around $1200 in the start. this kinda stayed with me and made me realized I cannot do it anymore. I think its better business to teach code than to work full-time. maybe I missed something or I am not that good of a programmer? I find it super hard to sell my self to others. I guess if you cannot sell your self you gonna end up like that.
NOTE: I am not saying all devs are getting paid less. it's all about finding the right place.
I'm having a weird issue.
I kinda care about programming, but I don't know if I can actually work in the field.
I'm not good enough to able to pwn interviews [0] and to submit resume to senior positions. And the few recruiting agencies I went through I probably playing games with people like me (gap in resume, not enough big names in it too).
This is utterly stressful because I have no idea how fast a normal developer has to be. How do you guys handle mental / roadblocks, outright failure (failing to build something even after the deadline).
I do know that there's a bunch of people being employed even though they perform badly, but it doesn't help getting in.
Thus I feel stuck, and I wish I could just peek into an office or find a place that mentors people for a while, but does this even exist ?
[0] in France, first interviews are mostly social skills, even though I got a pair of remote coding tests (python and java) and did well.
Your [0] resonates with me. Coming out of a bootcamp, I've been in the industry for 2 years. My feeling is that I'm supposed to be farther along but still feel like I don't know anything. Oh and I can't do interviews either.
Not really. I've been a developer for only four years. In that time I've had two jobs. Both went badly, resulting my losing the job. In both cases my boss started off friendly and encouraging and became more and more impatient with me and disappointed in me.
After the second job ended, earlier this year, I took time off to study some cs topics to improve as a developer in the areas where I seem to have decificts.
I don't know whether I've improved. I don't know whether I'm any good. I don't know whether I have any aptitude for coding. I just started applying for jobs, and I have no confidence, no optimism, no eagerness, and kind of want to disappear into a hole and never emerge.
I like coding, but I don't know whether I should even make an effort to stay in the field. I'm not at risk. I don't think I'm depressed. I'm just despondent.
Genuine question, are we as software developers at risk more than the average person?
I used to get stressed (crappy management), but having changed jobs a few times in the last few years (including one where I didn't get paid) I realise that we actually have it very easy in terms of being able to say "screw you" to a boss / company and be able to have a new job pretty quickly.
That's something that a lot of people won't have.
I am sure plenty of people are having a difficult time, and my intention isn't to sound dismissive but if you are, its something worth remembering, and the intention is to give you a bit more hope. Your job likely isn't worth stressing about too much.
Before reading the other comments: hm, not really, things could be better
After reading: My life is fantastic and I'm never going to complain ever again
Yep, sometimes the grass is really NOT greener on the other side. You may think you are in a bad spot but others have it much worse. All we can do is help them and hope that they can help us when its our turn to be in a truly bad state.
The stress level that I sense after reading the comments here is horrifying.
Right now -- OK-ish. Had a good day. Buried myself in work, feeling "productive". Making, producing things. That's what I came for, that's what I long time ago called my "hobby". Making. Tinkering. Doing.
Most of the time nowadays I feel overwhelmed, insufficient, unable. Fighting windmills. Meetings. Pointless meetings. Again, again and again. The same stories. The same questions, the same -- wrong -- conclusions. Me, predicting the -- to me -- obvious outcome.
Communicating to other humans sometimes feels so hard.
Most of the stuff I do is completely bogus and pointless. We're -- I'm in -- consulting hell in the enterprise world. Company too small to get at least "rich". Time-thief customers, can't fire them -- they pay employees. Can't fire them -- that would be the downward spiral again (been there, done that).
Thought about quitting -- my "job", I'm a founder-owner CTO, 46 years -- but imposter syndrome struck hard. Reading job postings, compared skills to things I did. I've been developing software for over 20 years now -- but can I compete? Daily HN does not help.
Change-it, leave-it or like-it -- chose to choose "change-it". Again picking fights, hopefully the right ones.
Trying to stick to principles I've seemingly forgotten -- and fight for them. Changing, trying to morph my "job" such that I like it again.
But I strongly feel that I'm running out of time. Brain does work differently -- slower, but deeper -- now it seems. Need to adopt, slow down. Keep thinking, not rushing.
Maybe I should get a therapist. Sometimes I feel I'm borderline on the manic-depressive spectrum. Should get that app idea going I have -- two buttons "OK" "BAD". See if I see cycles. But then again, reading other stories here I feel I'm unthankful, and I'm maybe OK off after all.
At least I have a very loving wife and two wonderful children. And -- compared to the world population -- I'm pretty sure I'm financially better off than 99% of all people.
Who else is struggling with backpain problem at early 30? It sucks and if you have any advices, i am all ears! :-/ I am living with herniated disks for 2 years now and my worst nightmare is to have another disk bulging episode that made me bedridden for 2 week. Not only working is difficult as i can't stay in a chair for too long, it is heartbroken to have to tell your kids you cant lift him up cause your back is foobar. :-/ I am trying to alternate between sitting and standing but man, just getting out of bed these days is a struggle :(
I haven’t had it quite as bad as you, but I’ve struggled for sure. Someone on HN recommended a book called Healing Back Pain[0] - I found it really helpful. Might be worth picking up a copy.
[0]https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connectio...
Thank you for the book! I will definitely check it out!
Thanks for asking. I am fine. I've recently changed jobs and now I work from home with occasional travel - and even though it's strenuous, it's much more comfortable. I have flexible hours, fixed pay every month, paid vacations (oh thank gods yes). My kid is gradually getting more social with us (he's almost 3), and spending time with him brings us great joy. We're all healthy, we invest time into our relationship, we do our best to sleep much, exercise, eat well, and it seems to be paying off, which is great, because this time last year we were getting ready to move across border, and soon before the move, we've had a serious health crisis (my wife was hospitalized for 10 day, and got out exactly on the day of the move).
What could be better? Well plenty, of course.
We could be saving money for our own place faster. But we partially use it to enjoy day to day and treat ourselves. I consider it money well spent, regardless of my wife's guilt feeling. We could be spending even more time together. But this is mostly because my wife is currently learning python programming and software testing in order to get back to job hunt. It was a conscious decisions, and her weekend school ends in a couple of weeks anyway. We could be spending more time with our friends. But we're all busy people, and we try to be understanding that it's difficult to find good timeslots.
So, it's all temporary hurdles, not really hardships.
Mental health is such a complicated problem because of how directly it's tied into the way a person experiences and processes information. In order to get treatment for someone there needs to be some basic recognition that something may be wrong which might sound fairly straight forwards, but it's a classic consciousness problem of having a ruler somehow accurately measure itself. It's hard to be objective here, more-so, without being armed with the right vocabulary and ideas related to mental health you might not even know what questions are worth asking. That means that short of more extreme problems I'd expect a lot of cases of mental illness go over-looked simply because people aren't aware they even need help.
Talking about it is a good first step. If there is something wrong you can bounce ideas off people and start building a better understanding. This is very useful because I think a lot of people expect doctors to be mind readers regarding this, when in reality you have to talk about a huge amount of background info, your thoughts, feelings, problems, and so on, for them to be able to help you... and that can be uncomfortable for private people.
Hopefully in the future there are biological tests for mental illness and you could get a blood test or even the equivalent of a grocery store style pregnancy test. That would be revolutionary.
It's not that complicated, just in western societies not much attention has been paid to how the human system works. Most of these cases are self-created, by self-created I mean unconsciously by not handling the system in the best way. Only a small amount of mental issues is caused by external factors. Just paying enough attention to how your system works will solve a lot of these problems.
>> Hopefully in the future there are biological tests for mental illness
At first I thought you meant something like a genetic test for some condition. But then I realized there are probably a number of chemical or physiological indications of distress, and people may not even realize it's happening. I look forward to such tests.
I recently left a government contracting role which I guess I completely mishandled. Miscommunication and a prejudice management left me in a position were I felt ostracised from other developers...
Of course this didn't really help my imposter syndrome and for two years I struggled with increasing isolation (in a new city), low(ering) self esteem, and feelings of suffocating in a hostile environment.
I don't really understand why it all happened, I know that I have certain character weaknesses that would make me prone to these situations developing... but the specifics on why it happened elude me; ultimately I blame myself.
It's been 2.5 months since I left and I'm struggling to find employment and I don't know why... I've been a day to day programmer for 3+ years, have a computer science qualification, and have some prestigious names on my resume. I guess in the Sydney market (perhaps others too) companies what you to have the relevant experience in specific frameworks (rather than just the tooling), which means I guess it's important to ditch legacy development and ensure you're on top of the most recent buzzwords.
That and with the state of civic participation/oversight, little to no personal engagement, and tiredness around getting asked the same bs questions from recruiters I start to wonder what's the point.
Kind of. I'm feeling a lot of pressure to perform, but I don't have much urgency (which usually helps me and my procrastinating self). I am in my last year as a Math Undergrad, studying for GRE/Putnam, am running a Game Development startup (only programmer of 4 people), and I do Computer Architecture research (I haven't spoken with my advisor for 3 weeks because I fell behind and felt embarrassed, I'm writing a paper, have all of the relevant data, but hitting a wall in the analysis since I have never formally learned Comp. Arch. in the first place. I have very little context and only surface level understanding). I know I can pass my classes, GRE, etc. by letting things fall by the wayside so that I have more time for other things, but I want to perform well at everything which feeds into an anxiety-driven analysis/planning/shifting gears/paralysis cycle. I've since realized that I only like doing 1 or 2 main things at once in my life, but since I'm not established/behind the curve yet, I feel a need to have a good GPA, good test scores, publications, etc., and I don't have forever to do it when it would best work for my happiness levels. I've been in better places, but also worse ones too.
Man I’m seriously torn in life. I’ve just graduated business school and have a great job working at an investment bank. Hours are crazy but the work is interesting and high impact. I just turned 30 and my girlfriend of 2 years wants me to propose a year from now. She’s a great girl and I’m only getting older but I just don’t know. I think we’d be happy forever but at the same time I feel like I’m still young and would be giving up optionality/flexibility to quit my job and travel or move to a foreign country (the latter of which is a life goal that would be complicated quite a bit by having a spouse). These decisions just get so much harder with a spouse in the picture. She’s also 32 and would need to start having kids in a few years which really would lock me down in one place in a big way. I’ve been stressed out about what to do for literally the last 9 months. Half of me feels that if the decision to marry is this hard then it’s a bad decision but at the same time my reasons for not wanting to be married may be ridiculous and I may never quit my job and move abroad even if I become single. I also may still feel this way five years from now and will never get married and realized I passed up a great woman who would be an awesome life partner.
As a remote worker I find myself isolated a lot, mostly spending time with my kids. Although I love them, that on its own can be tough. My partner recently left me though and the isolation has become particularly awful. I lost a job over it which was unprecedented and a major blow to my ego. I've gotten past the initial shock, but the damage it did is still evident in my life.
I guess I'm okay, but I don't feel okay. I'm alone. I have a lot of friends but it feels as though I've been isolated too long to really leverage those friendships. I made major changes in my life for her, many at my expense and her benefit. In retrospect I was unwittingly setting her up to leave comfortably. If our roles were reversed people would think I did something absolutely heinous to her by leaving like that. I don't think anyone really cares what position this puts me in.
I'm fortunate in that I found a small amount of work serendipitously, but it's nowhere near enough. I put a lot of time, consideration, and effort into finding the job I lost as it fit the way my life is at the moment (staying home, caring for a 2, 9, and 10 year old). I don't think I'm going to stumble into that again. The job search has been soul crushing. So many jobs I can do, so few with a schedule I can fit into.
On the bright side I went for a dive a couple weeks ago and swam with some harbour seals, a really big salmon shark, and saw some otters. I speared some fish and brought them home to my kids and made fish tacos. That was really fun. We're going to blast off a huge rocket we built this weekend. There's plenty to feel okay about.
This year has been a real turn around for me, I'm feeling great. I think R U Ok is a great initiative, quite a contrast it seems to America where mental health is more stigmatised. It would be great if something like R U Ok spread elsewhere. Even though a single day might seem shallow and mental health issues develop over a longer time, I think awareness helps. I didn't feel like the reason I didn't speak to anyone else was partly due to stigma.
I am not okay.
I want to work at a better job, but I also don't want to suffer the stressful, months-long shitshow that is the tech job search, yet again. My current job is boring, but easy, and pays me enough to pay the immediate bills, but not quite enough to get necessary health care or save for child tuition or retirement. But I do have an office, with a door, so there is that.
I don't work on the west coast (US), or the east coast (US), nor do I want to move cross-country for work, yet again. I'm starting to get the sense that some contract manager might be setting up to screw my company, with no recourse for the common employees, yet again.
I'm mainly just tired. Tired of all the bullshit. Tired of all the politics. Tired of having my company bought by another company, and then radically changed from what I was hired into. Tired of cleaning up after people who can't or won't write maintainable code. Tired of having excess expertise that lies idle or is ignored, left over from running on the up-to-date-skills treadmill. Tired of changing the pneumatic coverings on all the bespoke reinvented wheels. Tired of hearing about nonsense that gets unicorn-funded, and bonuses and free lunches and RSUs and talent shortages. Really tired of websites screwing with my scroll bars, and hamburger menus.
I just want to sit in my mid-2007, back when everything was cool. Because it hasn't been good for me since 2008. It has become better than the low point, but my satisfaction with my life hit an absolute peak in 2007, and I have not recovered emotionally or financially, nor do I have much expectation that I ever will.
I was skimming thought each top level comment looking for just one person doing well and was most surprised not to find a single one :O I almost feel out of place saying this now, but surely we need balance? I feel great! I'm doing what I love (for 13 years), what feels like it was meant for me (VFX), have got a partner (for 7 years) that I love and have nothing but hopes (wealth), dreams (AGI) and confidence for the future. Am I alone?
A lot of difficulty sleeping lately, occasional restless legs don't help.
I tend to overcompensate quite a lot (due to an underlying belief of not being good enough, which of course goes back to childhood and has been the topic of years of therapy) sothe desire to distract myself by working late and getting more done compounds that.
Still, putting it into the perspective of the last two or three years it's a slow but steady climb back out of the rabbit hole that was intense depression, dependence on therapy, multiple attempted suicides, an existential crisis after I didn't know who I really was any more, loneliness, moving countries multiple times, and suffering some deep loss.
Going from working completely remote, in isolation, and now making it to the office every day and being more outgoing has been a great improvement. There are more people I enjoy spending time with, and I feel really good in their company. It's great to say that I'm more okay now than I was earlier this year, and for those years previously.
I certainly wouldn't relive that period by choice but it's getting to the point where I consider it to be character defining as opposed to a shitty series of events. A lot of love, compassion and forgiveness came out of that.
Sort of. I have good and bad days. While my job is in the field I want to be in (predictive modeling/SWE), the team culture is so meh. No one talks to one another.
I'm 25 and I am about a year into the first serious relationship of my life. She is everything I could ever ask for, but I just have constant anxiety that I'm never good enough (I make a really good salary, run a nonprofit outside of work, and have a huge variety of interesting things about me), despite her constant reassurances to the contrary (she doesn't know I have these feelings of inadequacy. I kind of feel like Alexander Skarsgard's character (sans the violence, for sure) in Big Little Lies - he tells his wife, "I'm fearful because you could have your pick of the litter, leave me at the drop of a hat and be with someone equally wonderful just like that." I also have been plagued recently by a few bouts of "losing wood" when having sex - nothing more disappointing to me than getting her almost "there" and then my little member disappears... But even just this last weekend we had great sex three days in a row... then for some reason things just don't go as planned other nights.
Can relate. Tell her all that and stay the course. Trust takes a long time to build, even if you don't feel like it's lacking. Hard to be vulnerable about that kind of stuff but if she's understanding and supportive you'll develop deeper intimacy and the sexual anxiety will clear up over time.
I'm transgender and have struggled with it my entire life. I spent years using drugs to cope; I'm sober now but feel like it's too late to make any changes. I also work as a contractor, so expressing myself feels dangerous, I worry it'd be harder to get new client work.
I'm doing well professionally, but it all feels hollow and pointless. Like I'm just running in place till I keel over.
Thanks for asking, it helps to talk about it <3
> I spent years using drugs to cope
If you spent years using drugs to cope, wouldn't your transition be over by now? Oh, wrong drugs...
I actually recently discovered theres a whole transDIY thing on Reddit. It never even occurred to me that even for F2Ms with Testosterone being a steroid they aren't highly controlled substances and thus its rarely illegal to buy them online.
All the sex hormones / blockers are pretty damn expensive though.
I hope you feel better. Don't worry too much about work, risks are justified when you feel like it's time. Let me know if I can help.
Working as a Software Engineer in a company that the boss seems to take all the wrongs decisions. If we had not the kid, I probably would have gotten a divorce.
Also in another country and not the one that I have been raised, which pretty much sucks, except the pay which is like 2 times more as I could make back home.
Even if I could find something interesting back home, the wife is against returning.
Currently at my maximum weight ever, smoker, and almost always depressive.
Any suggestions welcome.
I'm fine, but not really.
Last year after quite a painful breakup, after which everything went to shit. Soon after being dumped I was pushed out of my own startup by my co-founders. This lead to me to a self destructive spiral damaging everything I touched, especially uni, which in reality is my only true responsibility. (I'm very lucky to have come from a stable and supportive environment)
This (academic) year was me basically trying to fix everything I fucked up last year. Passing all the courses I failed while listening to quite a few new ones. I did fine and there are just fivee courses between me and my degree.
In 5 days I have a final for one of them which I MUST pass now. If I fail, I probably won't be allowed to re-enroll, which means I won't be able to get my degree, which means the last four years have been for nothing. The worst thing is, this is my fourth year in a three year degree, and if all goes well I'll only be able to finish it next year. So five years total.
To top things off I failed this exam last week by a big margin 20%. I spent a month and a half studying for it, now I have less than a week to reprepare.
I don't know where to start or what to do. What I did wrong last time. I lack motivation and it all feels pointless and useless. How can I do something in less than 5 days, that I didn't manage in more than a month.
I'm not sure if I'm too dumb to pass, or just an idiot for not being able to force myself to sit down and work, to give 100%.
Sorry for the rant, thank you for letting me get this of my chest. I'm probably gonna go to bed now, wake up at four and try to get some work done.
Throwaway account!
I'm Australian. Social media sees quite a few fellow Aussies sharing R U OK day links. Yesterday an acquaintance of mine posted that no-one's asked him if he's OK but well, he's not. Same here. Wife cheated on me a couple of weeks ago and gaslighted me until I had collected evidence at which point she confessed. Everything is now very difficult. R U OK day is just banners and t-shirts.
That is terrible, hang in there! The silver lining is that you trusted yourself and it led to the truth, which is now exposed. Keep trusting yourself and you will make it through.
I'm not too bad, but I am worried about my father. He's almost 70 and still runs a stressful business with high liability that has been declining for several years. He went from having several million dollars in the bank to being in six-figure debt. Most of that went up in smoke keeping the business alive, the other part went toward trying to find a way to keep my step-mother from dying. Basically visiting anyone who could give them hope after the doctors gave up. I didn't have the heart at the time to tell them that these places they were going were politely robbing them of money.
He wants to sell his business for next to nothing because it's too stressful and instead wants to try picking up programming for his next business idea. I've been supportive because I think he'd actually be good at running a web-based business, but he is really awful with computers and won't accept the fact. I'm going to help him as best I can, but if that doesn't work out things are going to start getting pretty grim.
I'm OK, but it's only because of my faith in God. My life trajectory would have taken me to a very much not OK place otherwise.
I'm a retired programmer working on a programmatic approach to life using models from psychology and applying category theory to them. I'm also a stay-at-home parent who is working to develop a life for my family rooted in supportive and loving community instead of money. My partner and I also are making several non-normative conscious decisions about how to raise our child. These decisions are oriented toward meeting all needs for life to thrive, especially autonomy and respect.
We don't have cohorts and are currently looking for rent-free housing on land where a diverse, interdependent community already exists or the land-owners seek to develop one.
I am not looking to argue on the merits of what I seek or the existence of such places. We have enough evidence so far to encourage us on this path, including 4 potential places to live, though none have an existing community and the ability for us to move before winter may not be available at any of them.
We seek community and guidance for how to find our next home.
Thank you for this post.
I'm better than I was a year and a half ago when I was doing full time web development at an agency for large corps.
I just burned out one too many times and got sick of development and tech, in general.
So, now I'm back in school studying info science and deputy editor of a newspaper. I've made contacts everywhere.
Right now we're investigating the slow privatization of my public school and some recent antics by administration to outsource an entire tech department to an outside vendor. It's fascinating stuff. But it's dramatic too, and sad, when people lose their jobs.
With all the vitriol out there, the decline of independent journalism and the rise of tech, I sense a lot of spiritual opportunity (and perhaps not monetary) in reporting on these things, even though traditional media is in decline.
I'm hoping to find and join other people building next chapters in this area.
Most importantly, I needed to get away from code and screens and get in front of people with questions. I love asking questions.
Tldr; Money wasn't buying me happiness.
Im doing alright. Feel like I've plateaued in my current position. Work isn't meaningful nor am I learning as much if at all from when I first started. I work closely with one other person who has a few more years experience. Boss is constantly telling me to learn and absorb as much as I can from this person. It's a bit insulting since I've been teaching this person more the past few months than I've learned from them. Not only that I do believe the reason I know more is because I am open to learning new things whereas this person learned something one way and believes that is the only way to do something. I've been applying to new jobs but no bites. So it's a bit frustrating really contemplating putting in my notice and take my chances finding something else with no distractions. My bosses current vision for my role and my expectations of where I see myself being in a year or two don't align.
I'm in a weird place.
I've changed careers a couple times, and so find myself not as far along in my late 30s as peers of my age. My current job is great, but I also have a side project that made me a good amount of money a few years ago that I've let languish in the meantime, because doing both is difficult. I find myself longing to dive back into it, but fear of failure and general fatigue keeps me away.
Similarly, I'm single when most of my friends are married with children, and as such don't see them very often anymore - we're just at different places in life.
That gives me lots of time to date, and I date a lot, but I'm very good at finding short term dating situations and I run away when the potential to become long term appears. I wrestle with the fear that having settling down and having a family has passed me by.
On top of all that, my parents' health isn't the best.
I don't sleep well these days.
No - 2h one-way commute is slowly killing me and my recent Ask HN thread got 0 replies, so I am not sure what to do to change my commute. I live near my family in suburbia and don't want to move inside the city so am not sure what to do or how to feasibly get full remote employment as a deaf QA professional.
I left a comment on your ask HN thread.
It sounds exhausting! If you want someone to chat with, let me know.
Thanks - much appreciated!
I've been having different sensations on my belly, and thought this had something to do with my stomach and digestion. Turns out that heart palpitations is one of the symptoms of being highly anxious and stressed out. On tuesday I had my first anxiety crisis and ran out of the office, only to return after 30 minutes.
For the first time in my career this week I've left with a sick leave that will endure until the week following the next one. Since medical leave is paid by the state, my winnings will be cut to around 50% for the time that I'm home, and I feel ok with it. I feel that a week and a half won't cut it.
Guess that's what happens when you burn your brain on a project you don't fully understand why it's being done and interview around 200 different people in the timeframe of an year.
Fuck company growth and fuck the company.
For me, it's hit and miss.
Mentally, I'm mostly alright, but under a fair amount of professional and personal stress. The personal stress is mostly due to medical and financial issues (trying to get my wife to live within a budget).
Physically, that's where I break down. I'm not quite 40, and I already have a number of chronic medical issues that are largely beyond my control. The worst of it is osteoarthritis in every thoracic and cervical vertebrae coupled with bone spurs and degenerative discs in the same. Short of it means I'm in pain every day. On a good day, I'm sitting at a 4 in the 1 to 10 pain scale. Sleep funny and tweak a back or neck muscle, I can hit an 8 or 9 easily. Pain bad enough it causes me to vomit. Docs dont/won't prescribe pain meds because of the opiode crisis, which is fine, because the pain I have doesnt respond to opposes anyway. But, makes them reluctant to prescribe meds that might help with the nerve pain, such as Lyrica.
I also suffer from Cyclical Vomitting Syndrome which means every 3 to 6 months, I start vomitting uncontrollably for no apparent reason. No infection, no flu, no food poisoning, no allergy, I just start vomiting about every hour for days on end if untreated. I have to go to the ER every time it happens. Sometimes I get sent home after a few hours and some IV fluids and antinausea meds, other times like this past week, I get admitted because my blood chemistry is so out of whack it looks like I'm about to have a heart attack, am undergoing kidney failure or it looks like I'm diabetic, or all of the above. I spent 4 days in the hospital last week. That stay caused me to miss other scheduled appointments with specialists and an MRI to check on organs due to a genetic condition.
The kicker? I feel great. The docs dont know what causes it, although there's about a 90% correlation with heavy marijuana usage (I've never smoked weed).
Iunno, I have a referral to a specialist a few hours drive away. Need to schedule that appointment...
Not really at the moment, if I'm being honest.
I always have been, generally, which is what makes it so jarring right now.
I'm overworked and jaded at my current job. It's completely demoralizing to see red flags and systemic problems everywhere, bring them up to trusted confidants (and gently to the people who matter), and see nothing done about it. The management seems to be completely divorced from the reality of the situation.
I know I can quit and can probably find greener pastures elsewhere, but imposter syndrome and stress in my home life is grinding me down.
I know I'm competent, I think. I've learned so much being an autodidact, and am ~5 years into my SDE career, but my lack of a proper CS degree always feels like a blemish on the CV when I apply to jobs. This anxiety blossoms into complete fear during the interview process where I freeze up.
In my home life, I feel like I'm the sole provider and I have to do everything. My girlfriend, who I love very much and want to ideally spend the rest of my life with, has an overwhelming phobia of rejection and most likely undiagnosed depression, which is making it impossible to find a job. I work all day/ a lot of nights more recently, come home and have to clean/cook/etc., otherwise I feel like nothing will get done.
I have enormous anxiety about the future, financially, emotionally. How can I provide for two people, two cats, get a house on my current salary, let alone bringing children into the picture, which is what we want more than anything.
I've been leaning on drugs (adderall, kratom, nicotine) more than I should and smoking actual cigarettes again. I feel like I'm a slave to my environment and don't know what to do.
I just want to be happy and have security for my family. I want to pursue my old hobbies (making games, music production), etc. without feeling like they're an escape while everything around me crumbles.
Anyways, thanks for listening.
>I'm overworked and jaded at my current job... ...but my lack of a proper CS degree always feels like a blemish on the CV when I apply to jobs.
Same here, only difference is I work at a startup so I don't want to leave out of fear I won't get a piece of the pie when the company blows up.
>In my home life, I feel like I'm the sole provider and I have to do everything... ...I just want to be happy and have security for my family
I won't tell you how to run your relationship, but it's important to remember the main benefit of dating is that if it's not working out you can simply walk away. I've seen many friends get pressured into staying in a relationship they, deep down, don't want to be in or aren't ready for and come up with various reasons for why they can't leave. Relationships are all about compromise, no one likes to cook, but someone has to, no one likes to work but someone has to, etc. If you're giving 100% and the other person is giving 0%, 10%, 20%, 40%, I can't say if it'll work out or not, but it'll definitely end up deteriorating you.
>I want to pursue my old hobbies (making games, music production), etc. without feeling like they're an escape while everything around me crumbles.
I had the same problem. Getting pressured at work to put in more hours, do more work for no raise, take responsibility without authority, I wasn't going to sacrifice my life even further to appease someone making 3x as much as I was.
I declined. Not only that, but I started leaving earlier, coming in a little later, took slightly shorter, but more frequent breaks. I began focusing more on my hobbies as well. I've found that the world awards those who push back.
Question: does anyone have any tips on how to recover from burnout at work?
I ask because I've taken the steps required to get myself out of an - unpleasant[1], let's say - work environment. I left my last job with a little bit of money in the bank, fully intending to set myself up as a freelance web developer; I did the research and planning work I needed to do before leaving. Everything was set to go - brave new chapter of my life etc.
Three months later, I'm still sitting at home trying to find the will to take the first steps. I know what I have to do - network, hustle for contracts, build that killer portfolio site. Interact with the real world. But ... I feel like an old rabbit caught in the headlights, not knowing where to hop. I doubt my skills and abilities. As each day passes I make plans to do stuff, and then I don't do them. As each day passes, I become more convinced that nobody would employ me anyway - so why make the effort?
I have absolutely no regrets about leaving my job. I felt, as I approached the fifth anniversary of my employment there, like a bomb primed and ready to detonate. Feeling that rage leach from my body in the weeks before and after my (planned) departure is one of the best feelings I've experienced in a long time. But the drive and determination I was expecting to feel in its place - it just hasn't turned up yet.
And my cash reserves are running out. Food doesn't put itself on the table.
Any advice on how to rediscover a missing Mojo would be very welcome!
[1] Small company with a wonderful business plan which greatly helped me develop my tech and soft skills as I moved into the tech industry. Sadly their business plan didn't work well so they pivoted, and pivoted again, and again, until by the end I was the last software engineer in the office, doing work I actively hated. I came very close to closing my laptop and running for the hills twice, before coming up with a plan to manage my exit in a planned, civilised way. Nobody's fault. Just the way the world evolves.
I joined amazon a few months back and I kind of hate it. I feel like I've become a constantly working shell of my previous self and I feel like a robot. I had joined with such expectations but it sort of feels toxic. Anyway I had to get this out off my chest so posting it from throwaway.
I am a math research programmer with an advanced mathematical, programming, and engineering background, but I don't have a career or degree and I am not a student either. The universities at this point are pure social judgement garbage and the professors are more concerned with administrative bloat than with science. If I can manage to get a career in this idiocracy then I may be okay in the long run.. but I am on my own with that since the universities are unreliable and useless.. I have no plans of going back to university and will continue my research in pure mathematics, engineering, and computer science independently until I get a career. For now, I am okay and happy with having the freedom to study my own way, but obviously I am not guaranteed a career.
I don’t know who I am and what I want. I’m in my 30s and engaged because my SO couldn’t accept the status quo. I recently dropped out of my PhD after 3 years or floundering to take a job. I worry every day about the decisions I’ve made and I’m afraid of regret. I feel like a mess. I can’t articulate my thoughts but I know I have an aptitude for programming and math, though I constantly second guess my solutions and revise them all the time leading others to doubt me. I don’t believe in anything or anyone. I can shoot ideas down like nobodies business but have no vision myself. Sometimes I wonder if how I view myself matches up at all with how others view me. I fantasize about my own death. I can’t commit. Feeling sorry for myself I guess, but feels good to write it out
Don't know. I moved to Europe a month ago, leaving friends family and girlfriend behind, only to find out that the company might be facing a tough time ahead - CTO has left, primary revenue sources are expected to take a downfall and investor confidence is low.
I was actually hoping to do some sort of part-time Data Science/ML Masters along with my work, but looks like I'll have to get back on the interview grind pretty soon. Not looking forward to getting back on the Interview grind - take home assignments which last a week or so, or intense algorithms training. Next company will definitely be a stable/big tech one. But for that, I'll need to leetcode like crazy.
Unsure of my future.
Honestly I'm not.
I haven't had a job in 5 years, due in part to relocating for my partner, family health problems, and then my own health problems.
I've developed a bad anxiety problem, due in part to the shitty job experiences, which has been amplified due to my own health issues.
To top it off, tech work generally leaves me unfulfilled. I don't want to work on another CRM, build another website, or fix another damned computer. I want to do work that matters, work that is new and innovative. I'm tired of not making money.
Finally, I am sick and tired of all the bad luck I seem to have. I'm on the wrong side of the success bell curve and I don't like being here one bit.
Disclaimer: throwaway account.
I have a great job that pays well, love my colleagues, etc. But I feel like my management hates or at the very least ignores my existence. My boss doesn’t understand technology: every time I do something that saves others time or money I get torn a new asshole about how nobody asked for it or how they don’t understand how it works. Consequently I find myself just doing the bare minimum they ask for, which is demoralIzing because I know I could do so much more. I’d love to do a startup or another job, but I need a guaranteed paycheck for my family.
I don’t know. I feel like Bilbo Baggins: too little butter scraped over too much bread.
Thanks for asking.
This was a weird week at work. I've been at this place for a year and a half. I wasn't excited about the work but was in a bad spot financially so took the job. It's nothing like the fancy folks here, only internal help desk in a healthcare org. I've had lots of ups and downs over that time as the nature of the work directly has stressed me out physically and mentally. The amount of calls, the tedium and sameness, the attempts to get management to solve problems and help us be more efficient falling on deaf ears, etc etc. I really broke down over a call and getting into a meaningless argument with a colleague and had to leave. I told my boss I thought I was finished. He said take the day and relax.
The next day, we talked, and worked out the issue. He's been very supportive despite some of my behavior and we're working on adjusting my role away from what I'm doing now and towards things that better fit my personality. The other guys are having some fun and jokes about it at my expense (as if a mental breakdown is just a 'fun happy sick day') but I'm doing my best to ignore the jibes.
I've been in therapy since February, working on a lot of other issues plus this and my therapist had some interesting insights as well. We both think this is a good change. The biggest thing is trying to find some meaningful things in life to balance out the inevitable stresses of work.
It's difficult in the US to find a good therapist, either because of shady insurance companies or, now that things are somewhat less stigmatized, great demand, but I highly recommend it. Your friends may be great but there's nothing like an objective perspective with years of training. Ask for sliding scale if you need some financial help.
Also, I learned through this process, it's entirely possible to have mild or moderate depression and not really know it until those down times really hit hard. I used to think "oh, it's just melancholy", etc. A small pill every day and therapy have made what could've been a difficult past two months much more bearable.
Anyway, that's my story for this week. Hope everyone out there is OK and has a great weekend.
Am I OK? More or less, yeah. I definitely experience a lot of stress, but a lot of it is self-imposed, based on goals I chose and choices I consciously made. There are definitely things that weigh on my psyche sometimes, and I have (infrequent) moments of despair where I wonder if any of this is worth doing.
But by and large, yeah, I'm good. I have a plan, I'm working towards it, and I'm having fun along the way. The occasional despairing moments are when I allow myself to focus on the delta between where I am and where I want to go, or if I get caught up thinking about certain things in the past.
Not really, I’ve been looking for work for about three months after my team at a FANG was let go due to a legal fuck up by my boss.
I’ve been leetcoding but have only passed 3/7 tech screens only to be ghosted for the on-site after a pass or passed up after the on-site.
Starting to question if I was ever creative or really good at this profession - but don’t think I’m skilled enough or have the energy to do my own startup.
I have 2yrs experience, but scared my prior work history will make it look like I jump jobs or can’t hold a job down.
Fortunately, my health and mental health are in check and I have a place to live in the US that’s relatively cheap.
If it makes you feel better, for my first four years, I hopped around jobs about once every six months...Quit the first job, fired from the second, company went broke for the third and fourth, quit the fifth job, and fired from the sixth, company went broke for the seventh, did a bit of contracting work, then started staying at jobs for a bit longer term.
In my particular case, it was later determined that I am manic-depressive which I think contributed to my firings, but I haven't ever told an employer about this and don't plan to. Typically I find that a lot of people are pretty forgiving of younger people hopping around a lot early in their career.
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My point is, try to not get too upset over it; I'm sure you'll find something soon, and I wouldn't worry too much about a slightly spotty work history in your first couple years.
Thanks for your kind encouragement :)
I've seen fairly few companies in the Bay Area (sorry if that's not you, assuming from FANG) that actually care that I've only stuck around most places for a year.
I've only been in this field for 5 years myself, but I've climbed this job-hunt mountain before if you want a good pep talk. I've taught people how to get their first job, which is a lot harder imo.
Totally up to you, wish you the best either way
I'm not the OP, but I feel I'm in a place where this would be helpful to me, if you are open to that.
You'll land back into something. I know being out of work is stressful and very hard on people, but there are a lot of open positions, more if you are flexible where you work.
What type of employers are you targeting? How many resumes have you sent out? Are you trying to target a single geographical area? Open to moving? All those can drastically effect your prospects. Have you tried more traditional enterprise or non-tech companies?
If you want some resume feedback, shoot it to me, my email is in my profile.
I’d really appreciate that :)
How about some freelancing? PM me: gardner _|at|_ hiredinsight _|.|_ co
I'm not the OP, but I sent you an email anyway, if that's okay.
Which prior company?
I could swing a referral for you if it wasn't Amazon.
May or may not have been a startup acquired by AMZN, and my team was all let go via PIP before we could transfer internally. Not sure if this is common practice or just bad faith to do damage control around our boss' mistake?
Thanks for the offer though, means a lot.
I'm not saying at all that OP doesn't deserve it, but is it common practice to refer someone that you don't know?
We have a concept of networking referrals and personal referrals. Networking doesn’t require strong prior knowledge.
Can you try teaching at your local university meanwhile?
I have a bit of dumb question on this...is it easy to just get a job teaching at a university? I thought those jobs typically require a bunch of degrees and were pretty competitive?
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EDIT: The reason I ask, this is something I wouldn't mind doing but I've never really considered due to a lack of credentials.
I have zero interest in teaching or entering academia. I can get interviews, just struggling to find a way that I can improve fast enough / perform at a necessary level to pass interviews it seems. Idk, maybe I’m just not trying hard enough.
I doubt you're not trying hard enough. Are you interviewing for large or small firms (or combination)?
> ghosted for the on-site after a pass
Not sure if I'm misreading, but are you saying interview was cut short / you had an interview lined up that just got pulled at the last minute? If that's the case -- don't worry about it. This is like organizational maturity level of 0, I had this happen exactly once in my early career and it screwed me up for a little bit. So if that's what happened and I didn't just misread -- don't spend any time taking it to heart.
Check hackerrank.com - practicing there should help.
In all honesty, no I'm not. Two weeks ago I went to my GP to diagnose a light swelling / discomfort in my left cheek.
He gave me two rounds of antibiotics and it seemed to get better. Then recovery stopped.
GP sent me to the ENT. ENT also isn't sure what it is but is sure that the first suspicion was incorrect.
Tomorrow I have an appointment in the hospital for a biopsy to make sure the change in tissue is not malignant.
So I'm unfortunately not OK, I'm shit scared for what is up ahead.
Thanks for asking, since I haven't had anybody to talk to since Wednesday where I got the news that it might be something way worse than what we expected.
I'm sure that there are people in this thread that are in a lot worse situation than me but ... I could use some damn friends. Especially local ones with the same interests/hobbies.
Also, my job is super boring. I have an advanced degree, multiple certificates, years of experience, moonlight as a consultant, and I write basic SQL SELECT statements in solitary confinement every day. I've tried to convince my organization multiple times to use me to my full potential.
I worry about my health when I retire. Sitting behind a desk for the majority of the day, every day, is not going to end well.
change jobs. change cities while you're at it! the change will be refreshing and might spur you to be [more like] the person you want to be.
This is a great start - an annual reminder to care about your fellow humans... and actually express it.
I challenge HNers especially to express care and compassion in this way more than 1x/yr. it costs nothing to indicate you care about the other humans you share your oxygen with, no matter how jaded you may be about their beliefs, behaviors, work output, technical expertise, or whatever it is that might normally put a person at the top of your proverbial shit list.
At the end of the day, we are all human, and sometimes it’s nice to remind yourself - as well as others - of this fact.
I love this thread, thank you for posting it. It's awesome to see this stuff talked about, even if only online. I wish more work places valued this question.
I'm fine, though struggling a bit. I'm taking a long break to scratch project itches but other life priorities have made progress slower than I was expecting. But, I love those other priorities so it's stuck between clouds and a soft place!
I understand I was very lucky to be able to take this break. There are a lot of comments in this thread I could identify with. Fingers crossed this becomes a regular Ask HN!
My previous job was absolutely terrible. Toxic office politics, a culture of overtime, micro-management hell, and of course, bad engineering. It got to the point I would arrive in the morning and sit in my car for several minutes because I just didn't want to walk into the building again. The place was a pressure cooker and I usually left angry and exhausted at the end of the (long) day.
When I came down with freaking shingles (at 38, no doubt brought on by all the stress and lack of sleep), I knew it was past time to get out.
Hey guys, I'd like to recommend something to everyone here. There is a book I have been reading to help manage my depression, and I think it could behoove many others as well. The book is called How to Stop Feeling So Damn Depressed (The No Bs Guide for Men) by Jonas A Horwitz. It's about 140 pages long and has given me a good outlook on handling these feelings and emotions I have.
I'd also recommend everyone to see a mental health professional, if they haven't and are struggling. There is no shame in seeking help!
The other side of this is mania. I've been truly OK, GREAT ACTUALLY, NEVER BETTER, I'M A PTERODACTYL!! but mentally unwell and pretty much headed for a crash like a booming speculative financial crisis is.
I think the better attitudes to mental health is (1) self-compassion and (2) compassion in general. Health is never a binary -- my blood work says I'm in Good Health but as I run through my late 30s I have occasional muscle aches, get gassy or super sleepy after certain meals and so on.
We're human. Life is transient and fragile.
Yes, doing really well! Managed to do tons of things so far in my life.
I'm in an odd place right now where everything is (mostly) okay. My needs are covered. My children don't hate me. I have an amazing girlfriend. I get to spend time with friends sometimes.
I have wants, mostly related to work, that are causing me discomfort at the moment, but that's on me. It's not that I'm overwhelmed, quite the opposite actually. My job is pathetically lax, and my career is stagnant. I'm hoping to change that soon. I'm looking for my next opportunity.
At the recent XOXO festival here in Portland, there was a dsicussion by the authors of the book "Burnout": https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/592377/burnout-by-e...
I really found it illuminating, and their suggestions helped me get out of a momentary and powerful funk.
I guess I am doing relatively fine. I am in my early 20s and this is my first job after graduation.
But I have this irritating problem that I keep obsessing over any unsolved problem from work, which seems to affect my personal life as well. Until and unless I complete that(which can be a simple algo or lets say a small features), it basically keeps bugging me. Is this relatable to others? Maybe this is because of my lack of experience, and gradually with time, I can get over it.
My partner died 5 months ago unexpectedly. I'm not okay. I probably will never be okay again. Work is where I can forget I have a personal life for a few hours a day.
No, I'm not. I'm at the beginning of my career, and so far I have only worked for companies that collapse! For the past three years, I have not had a reliable/steady income. In my current company, we are already being told to begin looking for another place. Last year at a time like this, the former company ran out of money now this! I don't even want to work anymore. Financially stability allows you to focus more on your work.
I love this and have had other folks use this type of thing regularly in start off meetings. Nice way to pause a bit to check in with people. We used a scale of 1-10 and if you were lower than 7, you explained why... sometimes it was a work thing and sometimes a personal thing but it gave the group a chance to either help problem solve or offload work things to give our colleague extra space to deal with the things outside of work.
I've been unemployed for four months now. And, ironically, have been overworked preparing for the slew of technical interviews I've had these past two weeks (four just this week). If you had asked me this question a few weeks ago, when I had zero job prospects, I would have said no, but being busy again is giving me a newfound sense of purpose. Let's hope at least one of these interviews pans out! Fingers crossed!
Good luck :) I'm sure the preparation has helped!
Hey, thanks! =D
I’m not ok, I worked for 5 years as a “freelance” semi-full time, until 2 years ago when work kinda stopped coming in.
I haven’t worked since and got stuck taking care of some popular open source projects I can’t stop working on.
I can’t get out of this loop and my skills are becoming obsolete and forgotten.
I have on the other hand learned the basics of 3 South East Asian languages while living here. That’s all my life has become now.
I think modern life has torn the social fabric apart. There have been numerous studies on loneliness and a sense of alienation recently. A solution could be more face to face interactions. Junior needs to put down the phone and play with real friends. So does Senior.
https://its-near.me - Connect with people and events nearby
It varies. I'm 18, working a high pressure and underpaid development job. I have some clue what I'm doing, but I'm nowhere near skilled enough to get another job fast, and my work/life balance isn't exactly giving me time to learn new skills. I have some social life, but it feels like that's the only thing holding me back from insanity.
If I can get a girlfriend, I'd be ok. People say you gotta be complete yourself and not look for another person to be alright, but that's kinda bullshit, I think.
I live in SF and dating is so app based here. I don't do well in these apps.
Apart from that, I think I'm ok. Don't really like working fulltime but I've gotta a FI/RE plan to leave in a few years.
It's not dating advice, but this comedy show might make you feel a bit better: https://www.netflix.com/nl-en/title/80223685?preventIntent=t... (Daniel Sloss: Jigsaw, in case link doesn't work for you) There's some good life lessons in there about the feeling of needing relationships and it's very funny at the same time.
I guess I'm doing okay but the tremendous pressure of needing to do well in career and added to that FOMO and the feeling of never knowing enough has been extremely daunting. Sometimes I'll make never ending lists of things that I would need to know in order to feel good and "better than the rest". But it does take its toll.
There's also Project U R Ok that I think should be mentioned.
https://projecturok.org/
"an inclusive community with expert mental health resources for teens and young adults who are committed to ending the stigma and isolation of struggling with mental illness."
No. Honestly, not really. It's an inevitable cliff I would be foolish to think I could avoid, but I don't know if I'm strong enough to use the momentum of destruction as propulsion towards a better trajectory.
It's sucks being tired all the time, regardless of how well I do at making other people money.
I miss waking up rested.
Sorry, had to vent.
Honestly no. I’m preparing to interview with a big company that I’ve been interning with and I’m suffering pretty bad imposter syndrome. I’m terrified of technical interviews, because I’m worried of being called out on things I don’t know and realizing I might not be as qualified and knowledgeable as I think I am.
I used to have trouble sleeping as the problem of the day was constantly in my head. My minimal solution is to go home at a milestone point where you've solved the problem to a point requiring further debug/writing of code. I try to apply this always now, especially for weekends and vacations.
I found meditation to be most helpful with it. Now I catch myself doing it and put an end to it.
Unfortunately no, my father had an intercerebral hemorrhagic stroke and in a coma with a bad prognosis as the bleed reached his brainstem and enter a ventricle.
I wish I could spend more time with him, work consumed me. Everyone please let your parents know you love them. Life hits you hard when you least expect it.
Can't change jobs right now because of upcoming trip with my mother in November, and the client will probably not renew the contract in december (from 16 people, from client and my company, 5 already left). The timing is not right to change jobs, and it's giving me a lot of stress.
No. I'm a CSCE major in my last year of college and I simply don't want to be there. I feel frustrated, lonely, overworked, and that my hard work is not paying off in any meaningful way. I have an offer at (insert non-tech megacorp), and the deadline to respond is next week.
All day long I try to get work done while 90% of my brain is filled with abject terror at accelerating, unstoppable climate breakdown, ensuing global war, and the possibility that I will witness or be part of the deaths of billions of humans. And that it will be worse for my kid.
I suggest that you do two things:
1. Stop consuming the news.
2. If it helps, take some positive, concrete steps to contribute in a positive way to the issues that you care about. You can reduce your carbon footprint, donate to organizations that appear to be helping, and cast your vote in a way that aligns with your values.
If somebody asks me this question i know i'm coming across in a very negative way and the best thing to do is to leave, even if i am feeling only a bit tired. Generally my only consolation is that the person asking the question does it so that he can feel good about himself.
No, I am not OK. Mortgage, being sole provider, a heart attack (stress related) three years ago, corporate environment 9-10h a day, incompetent managers, impossible schedules, my own incompetence, family issues, suicidal thoughts. I’ve started seeing a therapist.
Still good in September. October still coping. November wondering how on earth I’ll manage 3 more months of total darkness. December to February a blur of slugging through the dark. March to September again great. That’s a year with SAD above 60 degrees north.
Can you move south?
Probably not (schools etc) for now I have tried doing January in the Canary Islands (they have Swedish schools there) which is fantastic. Don’t think I’d want to move there permanently.
After reading this thread, I feel fantastic compared to most of these answers. Thanks HN.
Not great, overloaded myself with too many responsibilities and am now working to simplify my life. Dealing with the fact that there are only so many areas that one can go really deep in, and I have learn to accept my limits.
Not really, previous gig broke me in many ways, I have incredibly low self confidence, I feel low and broken, had to move out of the country I began to love, and I'm not sure how to continue my career feeling like this.
I'm having a hard time balancing work and my health. According to my manager, I'm performing far beyond their expectations for the role but I can't seem to stay healthy enough to stay within my sick hours.
I have been dealing with a bad relationship (totally my fault) due to attachment issues (anxious-avoidant) and rOCD as a result of it. Really annoying stuff, pretty much have ended my relationship cause of it.
OCD gang rise up. OCD sucks man, it's so debilitating. I currently have retroactive jealousy and I feel it slowly destroying my relationship, already affecting my mood and productivity every single day for over a year now. 9 sessions of psychologist so far. I swear my partner and I are just incompatibility, which sucks because before I knew certain information which triggered me, I was the happiest I was ever been. I can't talk to my partner about it because she feels personally attacked. I can't talk to my friends about it because they don't understand, and it's simply "get over it" - I would if I could.
It was too good to be true. Good luck with you rOCD sir, I hope you find peace.
I'm okay. Just got surgery on my eyes to correct my strabismus. I'm taking a week off of work.
I taking my last OMSCS class, but the pressure is on to pass. Overall, life is okay. Could be worse but I'm fine.
I appreciate this being brought up. I was sexually assaulted this week and been astounded at the lack of support for women in this situation in Toronto. It’s been one of the toughest weeks of my life. :(
No. I have a chronic degenerative neurological disorder, and I am having a hard time accepting it.
I am gettig professional help for this, and I hope it works out, because it's eating me up.
Thanks for asking.
I think it's very important to have a good work life balance. Especially if you work the whole day mentally. I try to do sports regularly.
Especially important is the support from family.
Is there a name for that feeling of not having enough time to learn everything you want to learn? I have that pretty constantly. Other than that I'm doing great.
I am doing OK, thank you for asking. I recently graduated from a PhD program and am learning more about ML applications in industry.
I just wanted to comment to recommend a book: The Earth Has a Soul: C.G. Jung on Nature, Technology & Modern Life
i'm not ok too. been 3 months I can't sleep well. Only few hours.. had been thinking ways to die.. easiest way, fastest way.. painless ways.. 3 months ago i was out of a relationship that hits me so hard..she was the love of my life.. i was ready for everything. i lost everything.. i'm not ok..
hoping canada expands assisted suicide to include people like me so i can go sign a form and peace out tbh
Break free of the bullshit. Find your own reasons to enjoy the challenge of becoming a better person.
I disagree that mental health is anymore stigmatized than it is in other industries. Source?
This is a really good idea, and should be a recurring HN post, like Who's hiring etc.
I don't know what okay is anymore. I feel confident though so I must be.
Thanks for asking! I’m going to reflect on this question some more.
No and yes. Recently an HR person contacted me offering a position. She said she'd appreciate any feedback. I replied honestly that I'm 38, has been doing automation for 20 yrs, moved to another city and experience an existential crisis, suffering from loneliness and alcohol and drug abuse. I also added that IT industry is a terrible thing as well as capitalism in general. She never replied.
On the other hand, she helped me to spell out what my problem actually was and I realized that I was just trying to escape the relationship with the woman I truly love because of some stereotypes. And thus I decided to go back to where I came from.
Am I ok? Still not. That'll be a challenge but that's definitely better than before.
No, I'm not. Family health issues.
Stay strong friend. I've been there, and it is a true challenge in strength to still take care of yourself, take care of work, and take care of your family. You can do it though, you have to find an inner strength you (may) not have needed before.
Yes, and thanks for asking!
I don't Terry Bogard.
Depression and anxiety are not individual problems if everyone has them. They’re a reflection of how our society treats people. Unfortunately, taking the problem seriously would involve confronting capitalist power dynamics, so instead we will simply increase funding for medications and prisons.
And the problem will get worse..
And worse..
And worse..
If I had ever been OK, I wouldn't have gotten into tech in the first place.
Why do you say that? I think there's a lot of things that are really great about tech industry and there's some things that aren't so great. What's been your experience?
This field fucking sucks.
I'm tired of being on call 24/7/365.
I'm tired of having to explain why plaintext passwords are bad.
I'm tired of being taken advantage of for being a generalist.
I'm tired of ex-google asshole bosses with massive egos.
I'm tired of carrying a laptop with me "just in case".
I'm tired of the constantly shifting "popular" technologies.
I'm tired of spending weekends indoors studying for work, instead of work giving time to learn.
I'm tired of pretending to find conferences on monitoring systems exciting.
I'm tired of my coworkers and bosses being high at work.
I'm tired of JIRA.
I'm tired of consultants telling us how we're using JIRA wrong.
I'm tired of the politics behind technical decisions.
I'm tired of having to learn another DSL.
It all feels unreal. Can't wait to get out of this field.
> I'm tired of being on call 24/7/365.
You don't have to be on call. You can find a company where this is a choice (gives benefits / additional salary but not mandatory).
> I'm tired of spending weekends indoors studying for work, instead of work giving time to learn.
You shouldn't. Weekends are there for a reason, they are necessary to rest. You should try to change company if this is not the case.
I believe most of your points exist in all fields, in their own way. Good work-life balance is important to handle them.
You forgot the crown jewel of all: Tech interviews which consists of completely unrelated questions to the position itself
And pretending to be just as eager and passionate as a CS grad who knows how to reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard but has no idea how to humanely extract actionable requirements from non-technical stakeholders.
Change jobs; you are not a wage slave. I come to work at 8 AM and leave at 4 PM on the dot every day no matter the situation. I can care less about the company I work for because it isn't my prerogative to care, but instead, I am paid to build what they tell me to build, and we exchange my abilities for currency. In no way am I willing to give up my dignity or health in any way in exchange for currency.
No matter how many times you change jobs, if your income comes from wages and not capital gains then you're still a wage slave.
It sounds like your job sucks more than your field. And I'm not saying that to discredit your point of view. I know. I've been there. My last job was pretty bad and it left me wondering whether I hated the job, or the field. I ended up at a far better job in the same field (not without it's drawbacks, of course) and it turned out to definitely be the job all along.
This isn't my experience with just a single job. This is my experience in the perspective of a sysadmin/SRE/devops "track". Maybe it's different for programmers, but the overall spirit of my post happens at most of the places I've worked at.
Sounds like you just need to get out of the valley.
What will you do next? You can be rid of all these problems if you start raising chickens in the woods and selling eggs and poultry.
No need to be patronizing.
Sorry, didn't mean to sound insulting, my wife and I routinely discuss leaving our programmer jobs to move out into the woods and raise chickens.
Ah sorry. That does sounds relaxing, even in jest.
I'm trying to get out of for-profit tech and into the non-profit space to do data/FOIA/investigative work. It's still "tech work" at the end of the day, but without the deep dread of making rich dudes richer.
You can join a research lab as a software engineer, or even start a PhD.
Need a degree for both of those.
How much acreage would I need for that? Serious question.
I think a chicken run & coop is like 100 square feet total for a half a dozen chickens. Not sure though, I'm still just a development director. :)
Would like to know where you work.
It might be your job. Almost none of it applies to places I have worked at.
this feels so familiar!
anyway none of those things are gonna matter in 20 years, but you probably know that. Do you have friends in tech to vent to?
So get out of it, were you forced into tech by someone? then it's a legal issue, nothing to do with the field.
I say it because I can.
I say it because for me, it's true.
I've been in therapy for the last six months, figuring that it a more constructive way of coping with being a middle-aged man than getting a mistress or a motorcycle.
You know what I learned yesterday? I learned that I've been autistic my whole damn life, and never got properly diagnosed.
I got into tech because when everybody around me told I was a selfish, misanthropic asshole, I believed them. When the adults around me told me by getting into tech I wouldn't have to deal with people, I believed them, too.
My entire adult life is built on one half-truth and one outright lie.
The lie is that getting into tech would let me avoid dealing with people. I think everybody here knows that that is arrant bullshit.
The half-truth is that while I do often come across as selfish and misanthropic, it's possible that these qualities can be attributed in part to having grown up with an undiagnosed autistic spectrum disorder.
I've spent my entire life faking it, burning myself out to pass for neurotypical while also pretending to be passionate about building yet another government web application with ETL and batch processing. If you were me, you might wish for the Butlerian Jihad too.
Oh, and I work for Accenture. Work there long enough and you'll start thinking that maybe the Wobblies[1] have the right idea.
1: https://iww.org
BUSTAH WOLF!
Exhausted. I don't work in IT, but I suspect my job has a lot of parallels. I make my living running live sound for bands and small music venues, while also doing corporate AV for a large AV contractor. Despite what outsiders may think, working in the music industry is murder on your social life. Sure, you get to go to neat concerts and meet awesome artists, but it also means you're working most weekends and many evenings. During the day, there's a good chance you're sleeping. I often don't get home until 3 or 4 in the morning. The lows are low. I'm often so nervous before a show that I almost vomit. The highs are great though, I often go home after a good show in a state of ecstasy. It's amazingly satisfying on the rare occasion when I'm able to enter a flow state while mixing.
The corporate side is probably about what you'd expect. The hours are long, the pay is low, and most of the work is boring and/or ethically challenging. While some of the events are interesting, (I had a blast working with the guys from Earth Science Information Partners) I've also worked back to back 4 hour Amway pitches and helped set up mics and projectors for boiler-room style real estate schemes. It's the kind of job where your coworkers are really important. I really enjoy working with my normal team, but one day with a bad team can really undermine my self confidence for days afterwords. There's a lot of really crappy political stuff that I'm trying to navigate.
Personal life? I'm financially stable, I have a few friends, no romantic relationships nor prospects. The latter is sad to me, but I'm a tough sell. I really enjoy being alone and highly value my privacy, probably to a fault. My schedule is so variable and full that the very idea of coordinating that with another person makes my brain hurt. My dad died recently, which was rough. At first I was a bit numb to it, and really threw myself into work and keeping busy. Now, I feel like it's all catching up to me. The flood of feelings and nostalgia are beginning to creep over the spillway of my hastily constructed dam. The overwork is beginning to take a toll physically and mentally. I've had to dial back on a lot of the live music stuff.
I sympathize with those who want to move to a cabin in the woods. I'd take that life, provided I had a well stocked library and some musical instruments with the means to record them. My fantasy is to just disappear. Quietly and carefully I'd made the arrangements in advance, and then one day I and all my stuff would be on the road to some distant city, without so much as a note. I don't know why that idea appeals to me, but it may come from the same part of the brain that nags you to delete your entire source tree and start from scratch.
PS protect your hearing folks. You can get earplugs with a relatively flat frequency response for about $20. PPS no, you can't charge your phone
Yep.
Nope, I hate my job. First, it's worth noting I'm an not CS or any such as people often assume everyone is CS on here.
What I do is highly repetitive, right now it's 79F and change in the office which is cooler than yesterday and my chair and pants are both damp from sweat, I have a GED and have been doing the same job for 13 years now. Most stuff wants a 4-year degree for entry level work, I've even seen a bunch of admin assistant type jobs at local law/medical offices here in Indy wanting 4 year degrees and/or as much as 15 years of experience on Indeed.
I'm 34 so even if I wanted to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debts, I'm looking at nearly 40 before I have a degree. Nearly 40 to start at entry level at something. Add to that I'm a terrible test taker, I'm purely awful at them and always have been.
Hell, I can't even get a "thanks" from people. One of the people that was doing http://carbon.ycombinator.com/ paid me to do a bunch of research, I spent weeks of my evenings doing math and research on things like what efficiency Azolla could remove CO2 at and how much area of fresh water would be needed, on kelp and seaweed farming, new polymers, etc and then wow, this page gets published and oh hey guys, they're thanking people at hte bottom this is gonna be so cool my name is gonna be right down there!!! Nope, "Ideas & content: Gabriel Lopez, Zack Abbott, Greg Rau, Leonid Kozhukh, and Sam Altman; Design: Max Marele; Illustrations & implementation: Vlad Omer; Coffee getter: Radu Spineanu; Feedback & content edits: Maddie Hall, Adriaan Kroon, Camille Ricketts, Drew Reid, Ryan Flynn, Akwasi Apori" don't see my name in there at all, but at least I paid off a bill with what I got paid for it but I can't point to someone and go "look, look I was part of that!" I just have a 1099 from a random LLC. I tell you what, that chapped my ass so bad when I saw the 'thanks' section and my name wasn't there. Like ok, cool. Thanks for reminding me I'm not worth remembering.
I make enough to pay my bills, but not to remotely adequately fund my retirement. Despite housing here being in the 100-150k$ range for a decent house, home ownership will likely stay beyond my means as well. I can afford Netflix/Hulu/the occasional meal out but buying a big ticket item (my daily driver is a Chromebox 2 for example) or having a proper vacation is purely a dream... someone flew me out to San Francisco for a couple of days last year and the few Uber rides and 3 sub 20$ meals in the hotel obliterated by 'fun budget' for a couple of months.
Now add in that my, retired early via disability, mother and I live together and that I've never had a meaningful relationship as an adult (nothing past a few dates) and the regular rejection by potential employers "no experience" "not enough experience" "we require a 4-year degree" "would you be willing to move to the other side of the country for an entry level positions" "we wasted your time with 4 video interviews, scheduled while you were working, but we're not remotely interested in hiring you" "unfortunately your bankruptcy...".
Yeah. I hate my life. Most of my friends are married, have houses, have nice jobs, have remote jobs, do cool stuff a few times a year, some have kids, always have the latest tech and I'm just over here like "I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if I like had a heart attack in my sleep, would it?".
I don't even know what I want to do in life, finding out hasn't been an option. I've been working full time since the day I turned 18 and the maximum allowed hours prior to that from 16 on, with my first job being around 11 delivering papers on foot and during the summer going store to store on Main street asking if anyone needed their windows/display cases cleaned or wanted me to go get them lunch for tips.
2-3 years ago I reached out to someone that has had success after success, and to my surprise they replied and gave me their number and answered email after email of mine. When I asked initially what their secret was, they told me it was luck. Just luck. They got lucky. Where the hell is my luck? You get lucky, get your idea funded, sell your idea to another company, get the opportunity to do next thing, then get the keys to the castle, then have a bunch of success on the side, and then go start another thing that right out of the gate has people lining up to fork over money to be involved and you're taking a vacation over to that continent with your extended family, and then going to that continent a few months later, and showing off this bauble online, owning this crazy thing and that crazy thing and this crazy thing and getting invited to personally witness historical events and I'm over here like, shit man, that's cool, I just want someone to give me a job and let me prove myself instead of requiring some idiotic piece of paper from a university.
Around this time last year I went fully outside of the box and desperate... I legitimately tried to sell my life to someone. I figured out about how much money I'd need to retire today and told them I would will them 50% of my estate, 15% of all gross earnings for xx years AND the benficiary of as much life insurance as I could obtain (up to but not over the loaned amount) and give them as much access to my financial dealings going forward as they required. They declined "that would be like slavery" well what the hell do you think my life is now? If I have even a minor cash emergency, I'm screwed and I already had to fiel bankruptcy once. I make enough to survive with some comfort, I do not make enough to grow or enough to experiment. What I would have done with the money is just vanished for a month, just disconnected from everyone and gone camping and seeing new places for a month. Then I would have started looking for what I want to do with my life. I'd love to go apprentice with a blacksmith for a week or three, I'd love to go audit a few brick and mortar college classes to get an idea of if it is something I feel I could actually do. I'd love to go volunteer at various volunteer opportunities and just interact with people and hear their stories and struggles and try and find out who I am and what I want to do/be.
So, no I'm not ok. I hate my job, I hate my life, I hate the world we live in (for way too many reasons to list here). There are men that effectively have their own private spacecraft walking around this planet but taking a 3 day trip to Disney World is literally a dream that I'd never be able to justify at my current income because I could use the money for far more practical things.
Yes, I am OK. In the micro, immediate term I'm a little burned out: The summer was fantastic, but draining; I have 4 weeks of PTO and I used most of it within a two-month period on 4 different trips with my family. It was tough to make sure I stayed connected enough at work, and in some ways I am still catching up a couple of weeks after returning from the last travel. Speaking of work, I'm thinking of making a MAJOR transition; it is a fantastic opportunity, but I am also concerned about the details (it is an internal move and I like the group I am with quite a bit, so I really want the things and people I'd be leaving behind to be in as good a shape as possible, avoid burning bridges, etc.) There are so many projects at home that I feel like I'll never catch up (e.g. it's the end of the summer and I haven't started building the raised garden beds that we were going to put in last year)--much of that is because other projects with higher priority bump them back in the queue, but it still rankles a bit. And our spending has been outpacing our earnings for long enough that I'm a little worried about our savings.
But longer term, things are fantastic. I've been a software developer/engineer/architect/whatever for about 16 years now, the last 12 with the same (non-FAANG) organization (though I did a similar internal transfer about 7 years ago, which has turned out to be an incredibly positive change of direction for me). I have a high degree of autonomy and several different very interesting projects that I could choose to be working on. (For example, I recently stepped back from a managerial role that has been taking most of my time for the past 3 years or so to focus more on technical work). I'm making in the low six figures, and expect to see my salary continue to increase steadily (though it will be interesting to see how my stepping back to a more technical role will be reflected). The work-life balance and corresponding flexibility that I have here are wonderful (generally 40 hours a week, and if I go over because of travel or deadlines I can usually take a corresponding amount of time off in the next pay period or two, and it only happens once or twice a year). My commute is about 15 minutes. I have a spouse and kids, and that's not without its own stresses but in general things are going well with them. I am on great terms with my parents and siblings, though I don't see them as often as I might like.
Thank you for the opportunity for me to step back and appreciate that for a minute, especially in the face of all this short-term anxiety I'm facing. If you would have told me this when I was back in highschool and the hell that that was, I probably wouldn't have believed you. Heck, if you would have told me this back when I was struggling with VBA 15 years ago in my first job, I might have been pretty skeptical (me, a manager? Pshaw!) But I am so glad that I didn't give up, that I made time to hone my skills, and that I took those uncertain leaps into the opportunities that I found.
no
no.
TL;DR # Dear quantumwoke, are you ok? Thank you for posting this here. I hope you and your friend are both happy and healthy. You don't have to read this, I started writing and just couldn't stop, feels good to put things in writing. #
I am a 25 year old guy from Melbourne, Australia. This is my first time leaving a comment on Hacker News. For the last two years, my home page has been set to /newest because of the wide variety of intellectually stimulating reading material. If this community did not exist, I would have missed many wonderful articles, ideas and opinions because I would not have stumbled across them by accident any other way.
Over the last few years I have had a little bit of misfortune and made a number of mistakes. I grew up in a loving and supportive middle-class family home and had no major trauma of any kind during my childhood. My parents are both well-educated professionals and have no history of mental illness. I've had issues with moods, sleep, energy levels and body temperature my entire life; self-diagnosed as probably on the mild end of 'rapid cycling biploar' in primary school with the help of WebMD (lol). During early teens, my parents thought I was just "going through puberty" and my high school consellor thought I might have "some anxiety" but I was good at faking happy, self medicating with weed and the really bad days were so rare that I was largely able to keep things under control.
Around three years ago, I randomly got the shit kicked out of me by three guys in broad daylight, just around the corner from my apartment building. I hadn't ever been in a serious fight before and while I was not seriously injured, I was bruised from head to toe and pretty shaken up. I did not realise that this event would mark the beginning of my descent towards rock bottom. About a week after this incident, I decided to go out alone for a quiet drink. It was mid-afternoon, I walked into a dingy pub in the city and bought a pint of beer. I'm sitting alone at the bar for a couple of minutes and I'm not exactly sure why but I decide to put $20 in one of the pokie machines. In retrospect, maybe I was just the right combination of anxious, lonely and restless; I was definitely looking for an escape. I'd never really gambled on anything before but it seemed like a harmless way to kill an hour or two. There were plenty of other people playing, the staff were all smiles and there is a small chance I might even win something, what's $20 right? A few minutes later, I'm tapping away 30 cents at a time and nothing much seems to be happening. I had no idea what a payline was or how the game actually worked beyond knowing that it is impossible to beat the house over time. Suddenly the gold symbols on the bottom of the screen begin the spin, a feature I had not seen before. After plenty of flashing lights and dinging bells, the cartoon character on the screen informed me that I had won a $2138 jackpot. I was in disbelief about how 'lucky' I had been, got the cashier to write me up the cheque and walked straight to the bank to deposit it. A few days later, I had an hour in between appointments so I went back to the pub. I put in $40 and I lost but it didn't concern me. Slowly the frequency of my visits grew; then I started taking $50 notes instead of $20 notes; then I started increasing the size of my bets from 30 cents a spin to $2 a spin.
It wasn't long before I was making multiple ATM withdrawals within the space of an hour at the casino; turning my phone off to avoid phone calls from my ex-girlfriend while I played for hours without a break and lying to everyone around me about my financial situation and whereabouts. It took just a few months for me to go from my first big win to losing every dollar, destroying important relationships and being suicidal on a daily basis. It was at this point that I started to seek help and I was eventually diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. Now that I am better educated and more self-aware, there is no doubt in my mind that I have always been a borderline. Before my addiction, I was probably a 2/10 on the crazy scale; I'd been a little anxious, a bit oversensitive, often somewhat depressed but NEVER psychotic or a danger to anyone. Pokies messed up my brain chemistry to the point where I walked into Police HQ and politely asked them to lock me up; I had plans to kill a government minister and several gambling industry executives and I was genuinely worried that I may act on these thoughts.
It's now been almost a year since the last time I entered a venue, I have a roof over my head again, I'm seeing a psychologist on a regular basis and planning to return to study. The experience has changed me forever in ways I could never have foreseen. I'm suspicious of behavioural marketing, social media and video gaming; I see them playing the same dirty tricks as the casino industry to get people hooked. I'm skeptical of our current political and economic systems; party politics and crony capitalism seem totally incompatible with the ethical and environmental demands of the 21st century. I'm fucking terrified of what happens when we combine modern knowledge of human behavioural psychology, the big data surveillance state, exponentially more powerful ML/AI, bioterroism and gene editing, trickle down economic models and personalised deep-fake filter bubbles delivered to your always connected holo-glasses.
In conclusion, I'm ok but I'm not so sure about the future of the human species. Please convince me that I'm wrong. Or tell me what campaigns, initiatives and projects you think I should spend my life working on (assuming that I want to leave the world in the best state I possibly can when I die).
Nope. I was fired 9 months ago for insisting that leadership disclose a credential leak to affected customers. The company is one that publicly touts itself as being an ethical, progressive, transparent organization. Turns out if a disclosure doesn't improve the image they're attempting to market, those values go right out the window.
The whole experience has left me jaded on working with for-profit tech companies, and put me in a pretty rough mental state all around. I feel disgusted with myself when I consider working for another vc backed org, so now instead of making a healthy west coast engineer salary, I make minimum wage in a bar, and am teetering on the edge of homelessness.
Sorry to hear you are going through a hard time and having fired can be a traumatic experience, I have had that before and can still remember that phone call. You will get over it, I would say there are too many companies with great cultures out there so it's just a matter of time and effort when you find your next one, just think it of like numbers game. I would also suggest working on something you are passionate about and finding a community of like minded individuals, that may bring you joy :)
Come east. You can make high 5 to mid 6 figures with a fraction of the cost of living.
Although I don't subscribe to the core religion here in the mid-south (TN), I have found the average person to be friendlier and more helpful.
Nashville would be a good option.
P.S. I left my last job because they pivoted to fin-tech for upper middle class. I wanted to focus on the under-served communities but was vetoed. You're not alone.
I've been receiving threats through social media for a few months now by anonymous trolls. Kinda sucks because I never know when/if they are going to start a harassment campaign in real life. I've seen them do it to others, it can be disruptive but is not the end of the world. I kind of wish it would just happen already so I can move on with my life. It's hard to start any new projects if you don't know if you're going to run into a ton of new problems for a few months unexpectedly.
Not really.
It's looking more and more like the (human-civilized) world is going to end from an environmental apocalypse because people keep working jobs they hate to buy shit they don't need. And there's nothing that can be done to stop it. It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't think the world was about to go to war over what little resources are left.
So how you doin?
It's the opposite for me. I recently took up working hard again and I'm finally into it as well. However, the anticipation and excitement is making it hard for me to go to bed and sleep.
Is posting through Tor not allowed? Only I am able to see my comment.
Your comment was killed by a software filter that is based on past abuses by spammers and trolls. But moderators review the comments that were killed that way, and unkill the good ones (like yours, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20952659). So this filter is mostly just a delay mechanism.
Users also often restore the comments to visibility before moderators get to them, by vouching for them. (To vouch for a dead comment, click on its timestamp, then click 'vouch' at the top of its page. There's a small karma threshold (> 30) before vouch links appear.)
Nope and nobody here gives a shit either.
Good question
lol
Cool
You funny brah
No. What's it to you?
Let's have a pity party.
OK
Except that guy. Fuck that guy.
Seriously why are you asking? What are you going to do about it if I say no? Oh, nothing? What a surprise! Fuck you. Fuck all of you.
Sorry guy, politically correct and socially acceptable expressions of misery only.
Fuck you. Fuck all of you.
There is no such thing as stressful jobs, stress comes when you do more than your faculties can handle.
I can care less about what people think, I have an unbreakable mindset to protect my dignity, honor, and freedom of speech. I will never need psychological help because not one person on this planet can mentally/emotionally damage me. I persevere as a software engineer / FPS gamer / cyclist / drone racer / graphic designer / web developer (C#, T-SQL, ECMAScript 8, SASS) / mobile app developer (react native), open source developer.
I don't allow myself to get into extremely stressful situations. If anyone tries to force me into a stressful situation, I refuse. I will not be a "hero" unless someone's life is in danger. I am willing to quit my job to prevent myself from being overwhelmed by stress. I have a certain level of expectations when it comes to how I am treated as a human being and how I treat others. I am not responsible for anyone's "feelings" except my own, therefore, even though I respect one's feelings, I am willing to disregard them to prevent my own suffering. My mental health is more important than anyone else' mental health because I am human, humans can be ruthless individuals, and so I must protect myself from the ruthlessness of this world. If the world was different, let's say, like it is in Bhutan where they have an economy based on happiness instead of export, I would be more willing to be emotionally vulnerable towards other people, but this modern world of ours is in fact ruthless.
...and that concludes my rant.