Haptics you can feel through a 7mm wetsuit? I'm impressed by that, although I'd not want them turned up that high on my bare wrist!
This seems like a winner for vacation diving. For those divers that manage a couple dives a year on the family trip to the Caribbean, you have a device you know extremely well from daily life and that you know you keep charged, rather than a standalone computer you kinda forgot to get serviced or, worse, have to rent. Big, clear ascent rate warnings in color. It looks more accessible than some inscrutable Suunto, especially with a companion phone app.
If I had an apple watch I'd wear this it on my other wrist to my Perdix just to get GPS integration and all the health monitoring too - interesting to correlate heart rate with events in the dive, gas consumption and so on.
I have Garmin's competing product the Descent Mk2 and can feel the haptic alerts through a drysuit. Those alerts are probably helpful for less experienced divers but I disabled them (silent diving mode) to reduce distractions.
Optical wrist heart rate sensors can't read through an exposure suit. Garmin has chest heart rate monitor straps which can record heart rate during a dive (within depth limits) and then upload those to the dive computer upon surfacing. I don't think Apple supports those.
If you can't see your boat after you've resurfaced something has gone pretty wrong.
Most professional divers will be using a Surface Marker Buoy which indicates where they are underwater and where the boat should be looking to pick them up.
One feature that would be very useful under water but was disabled was Compass way tracking. Hopefully Apple thinks about it allowing it.
> Most professional divers will be using a Surface Marker Buoy which indicates where they are underwater and where the boat should be looking to pick them up.
These are generally deployed only during the safety stop, not for the entirety of the dive for obvious reasons-- handling up to 120ft of line underwater for the length of a dive would be near impossible. They would be pretty useless if you resurface and can't see the boat.
That said, you are right, something would have had to go pretty wrong to not see the boat. During a dive trip earlier this year my buddy and I resurfaced 1mi+ from where we were supposed to. But even then, we saw the boat, they saw us and our SMBs and it wasn't a huge deal other than getting the "pickup of shame".
That really depends on local dive conditions. For drift diving in the Gulf Stream off of Florida it's common to tow a float during the entire dive. For tech diving in the Northeast Pacific Ocean we can't tow a float while on the bottom due to rock structures and kelp. But we will shoot an SMB as soon as we leave the structure (rather than waiting until we reach a shallow stop) so that the boat crew can follow us as we drift during deco.
Of course it's always a good idea to carry other signalling devices beyond an SMB in case you get separated from the boat.
I think the only time I've ever seen SMBs used outside of the safety stop are drift dives. And even then, it's been the exception rather than the norm.
It's pretty easy to get tangled up if you're doing anything but a single direction drift dive where you're both away from structures and moving in a continuous straight line that doesn't cross itself.
Also for tagging your dives. Your watch would know where you descended/ascended.
It’s great for when you’re in the middle of nowhere on a liveaboard and you forget the names of the dive sites. My Suunto watch uses the phone’s GPS for the same purpose.
Yes exactly, it's for tagging dives. Times and locations only, nothing about what happens underwater.
Edit: actually my computer does that too, well, the app does sort of: the app I have for capturing data from it takes the GPS location when you trigger a sync. Since I don't sync on the boat (why play with a phone?!) it's not very useful. You can easily edit though, drag a pin around and plop the rough location. MacDive, it's a decent bit of software.
I use Dive Log[0] which I believe does the same thing, tags when it syncs. Suunto's app as well. I'll usually initiate a sync when I get back on the boat if only to fill in the additional details like island/country/buddy. I started doing it on my first post-OW class dives so it's nice to look back and see all the dives I've done, who I did them with, what equipment I used, etc.
I think this looks amazing for warm-water vacation divers - typically they are stuck with rental equipment, which usually means a cheap, dated computer on a bulky console. Having a well-designed UI will definitely improve these divers safety - the last boat dive I went on, an experienced diver blew past no-deco limits because he didn't understand his unfamiliar rental computer.
That being said, I can't personally imagine taking the Apple Watch Ultra to, say, 80-90 feet if it's only rated to 130. It's just too expensive.
Slight clarification: the Apple Watch Ultra has a water resistance rating of 100m. The Oceanic+ app has a 130ft/40m limit because that's the recreational diving limit.
There is virtually zero risk of an oxygen toxicity seizure in the 1.2 - 1.4 atm range. I don't think there has ever been a confirmed case of a sport diver toxing at that level. We normally target about 1.2 atm for the working phase of the dive (reduce slightly for long exposures) and 1.6 for deco (with back gas breaks for long oxygen stops).
Narcosis is an issue with nitrogen and oxygen (as well as most other gasses). Helium is the exception. It is a noble gas and has no real narcotic effect; rather the opposite. Other noble gasses such as argon are much more narcotic than nitrogen and aren't used as diving breathing gasses (outside of a few limited experiments).
The other problem with nitrogen and oxygen is that they are relatively dense and so at greater depths they cause increased work of breathing, which in turn causes CO2 accumulation. CO2 is itself highly narcotic, and has other negative physiological effects. So for deeper dives we add progressively more helium to the mix.
Oh, cool! It looks like that's the limit of Apple's Depth app, as well, which is what I found when I searched, and assumed it was the limit of the watch.
Well that's definitely better - I wonder what happens when you go under 130 feet, though. A dedicated dive computer would at least provide accurate information, rather than throwing you to the wolves because you exceeded some legal limit.
Also on the plus side, some of the existing air pressure transmitters use bluetooth, so if they could get that working, they'd actually be one of the cheapest air-integrated computers on the market.
(edit: they do not use bluetooth, they use low-frequency radio ~38khz)
I think I'll stick with my Shearwater Peregrine though, pros and cons considered.
DC Rainmaker showed what happens to the watch when you take it past the max depth in his review [1] (using a pressure chamber).
I think your concerns are valid and merited for your very advanced level of diving, but at the same time the vast, vast, vast majority of divers aren't going anywhere near 130 feet. If I were going on a standard "simple" dive to <60 feet, I think I'd be pretty comfortable with just the apple watch ultra, a dumb watch + cheap depth guage and a written back-up plan.
Yes, agree completely. Would be happy to have just this on a 60 foot dive. And will be happy to see it on the wrists of other divers on the boat, as I think it will make them safer vs the status quo. Just wouldn't _buy_ it for that purpose myself, I think there are better options if you research a bit.
Also, I never dive past recreational limits, I'm not a technical diver by any means. I would simply have philosophical concerns about a piece of equipment that could provide accurate information beyond recreational limits, but simply doesn't for "legal" reasons. It probably makes sense to people - "oh they don't want to be liable for giving advice past recreational limits", but other companies seem to have navigated this legal issue and choose to provide accurate information regardless of this arbitrary limit.
As another commenter pointed out, I have no idea what it does past 130 feet, but the disclaimer that it _cannot_ be used past 130 feet, rather than one that says you _shouldn't_ use it past 130 feet, is somewhat concerning to me, even if I don't approach those limits.
I'm not assuming anything - and I'm not speaking as a pundit on Apple, I'm speaking as a consumer in the target audience with specific, important questions about a safety-critical piece of equipment. The answer to my question is not clear from this marketing release, and I'm simply saying that affects my likelihood to purchase.
Also, in the case of lack of evidence either way, assuming it would shit the bed is _definitely_ the right approach in diving.
Knowing the current state of software development and Apple's tendency to make pretty things on surface but that breaks down when you actually use it, I'd expect it to tell you you can swim as fast as possible to the surface without decompressing, even from 100m deep.
I took it to 140ft a month ago. It complained and turned the screen yellow as a warning, but readings in the built in Depth app (which measures depth, water temp, and dive time but is NOT a dive computer) matched my dive computer exactly at that depth and all other depths.
It’s rated as water resistant to 100m, 300+ feet - it’s just the software and measurement sensor bits that get queasy at 130ft.
Was curious about this myself. I've gone deeper than 40m on a recreational dive, blue hole I think. Obviously they aren't 'supposed' to do that, but it obviously routinely happens and it'd be a bummer if your fancy watch dies at that depth
> That being said, I can't personally imagine taking the Apple Watch Ultra to, say, 80-90 feet if it's only rated to 130. It's just too expensive.
I get the feeling of it being too expensive - but technically? If anything is to be expected from Apple, it is to under-promise on advertised specifications, and at least here in Europe, under consumer protection laws I can hold Apple accountable for not delivering upon their spec [1]. The hardest thing with anything underwater is pressure differential anyway - old analog watches have a lot of air inside which is compressible, which means you need strong seals and construction to avoid the pressure differential to simply crack the case. A modern digital watch however? Space is scarce so every cubic millimetre is packed with solid incompressible materials, making it way easier to withstand higher pressure.
[1] Actually had to do that with a CAT phone many years back when I worked in construction, a simple fall on a floor slab broke the screen. I made a backup (back then, that was actually feasible because rooting was easy, another personal gripe I have with recent Android), went up to the retailer and had it shipped in - a week later I had a brand new device and a written apology that the product was not up to spec.
> For access to decompression tracking, tissue loading, the location planner, and an unlimited logbook capacity, Oceanic+ is $9.99 (US) per month, or annually for $79.99 (US). Family Sharing is also available for $129 (US) annually, allowing access for up to five people.
I want to take a sabbatical and clone this stuff as an open source project. It’s so obnoxious that Apple advertised the watch as a dive computer, but you need to pay a third party $10/mo to use those features. I was considering sport watches in the $1200 range which make the $800 Apple Watch look like a steal, but after 5 years the total ownership cost of Apple Watch will be higher. It still seems like a fine deal on paper since outside of scuba, the Apple Watch is vastly preferable to a Garmin or Suunto to me, but it’s annoying!
Right but will it drop my logged dives? It claims to only store the 15 recent dives unless you subscribe. Really I want to store dive logs in an open format synced via iCloud, Google Drive, or uploaded to Notion, ideally without needing to screw around with a second app, import/export process, etc.
Has Apple added the ability to do group challenges with your friends yet? That, the battery life, and the lack of smartwatch features are what keep me happy with Garmin.
Any HN scuba divers here that would use this as their only dive computer on a dive? I'm not a scuba diver myself but do engage in other adventure sports where reliable equipment can make the difference between a great trip and disaster. I'd be very reluctant to trust my life or health to this.
I'm a recreational diver. I wouldn't use this as my _only_ computer, but I would say the same for the computers I currently use. I always dive with 2 computers just in case one fails, a battery dies, etc. As 'latchkey said, never rely on a single piece of equipment. With that being said, I would be willing to swap out my wrist computer for the Apple Watch Ultra. The superior display and UX would actually be a big quality of life improvement over my current wrist computer. And, I'd still have my backup computer in my SPG to compare against or fall back to.
Personally, I'm comfortable diving with one computer... provided I also have an analog SPG (as a backup for an air-integrated computer) and run the dive tables on paper as well. If the dive computer fails, I just revert to paper.
I just spent a month in Thailand diving around the sites near to BKK e.g. Koh Chang with the Apple Watch and used it as my only underwater computer. I had a proper dive computer on the boat to help with planning.
a) You never trust your life to any single device and there are always backup plans if something fails. And at recreational depths you're not going to do severe damage if your watch fails and you lose no decompression limit information.
b) The watch is such a joy to use underwater. It's 100x brighter and clearer than other devices so you see information at a glance. It actually made the whole diving experience better it was that good.
c) I've had Apple Watches since the original one and reliability has always been excellent. Easily on par with other dive computers. And of course the ease and quality of the user experience is significantly better.
> I've had Apple Watches since the original one and reliability has always been excellent.
I've had numerous activity tracking apps crash on me randomly, I think because they have been running out of memory on my Apple Watch 3. Strava was one of them. I stopped using it for this purpose after I lost a few tracks.
With such an old device my guess would be that the battery's internal resistance is high enough that the watch is browning out.
Either that or the watch is throttling to prevent browning out, and the app crashes as a result of loops / event handling not happening fast enough and stuff 'piling up.'
Not my only, but if I was starting out again I'd consider an apple watch ultra over a dedicated computer. Consequences of computer failure on a well-planned open water rec dive are fairly minimal. This doodad, plus a backup basic watch capable of working at that depth (so you have an idea of time although really your decision to surface is largely driven by air remaining) and I'd be confident. Ascent rate is the only unknown then, but you have a buddy or a group to follow. If you're really unlucky, losing your computer and your group, you just remember your training and swim up really really slowly. Missing your safety stop isn't going to kill you. Losing your dive boat might though :)
I've done a lot of dives, in the late 80's, early 90's. We didn't have any of this fancy stuff. For sure, you never rely on a single piece of equipment.
Except for more advanced (deeper) dives, a dive computer is fairly unnecessary. 700 lbs of air pressure left, go back up, slowly.
I did most of my diving right off the coast of san diego, where there are amazing kelp forests. I preferred less deep dives (35-50 feet) anyway... you start going deep, you have much less air/time down below.
I would assume this to be a very tiny market for users.
I plan to do so, and already purchased an Apple Watch Ultra for this purpose. I also started writing my own dive computer app for the watch to learn SwiftUI. My plan is to dive a few more times with both a traditional rented dive computer and the Ultra to build confidence, and then switch 100% over to the Ultra.
That’s standard diving practice. You have a backup regulator and a backup dice computer. And in the event of both primært and secondsry familier you have a plan for how to handle it.
But both the backup regulator and dice computer is on your companion. You don’t dive with two yourself.
You don't dive with two regulators? I haven't been in a while but I fairly distinctly remember having two regulators per person, that way if one fails you don't have to immediately fall back on passing regulators back and forth breath-by-breath. The backup isn't a particularly nice regulator, probably reusing the mechanism your vest uses to inflate, but better than nothing.
I would refuse to dive with anyone who isn't carrying two regulators. Sharing a respirator is feasible...but it requires practice to do well and significantly impairs your ability to move around or accomplish other tasks.
Backup dive computers are much less common and most people use their buddy as their backup computer. It is much safer to surface without a functioning dive computer than it is to surface without a functioning regulator.
Regulators come in two stages; you carry a backup second stage for someone else if their system fails - but you don’t carry two first stages (the part that screws onto the tank).
In sidemount diving, each diver carries two completely independent tanks & regulators, one on each side of their body.
While it is used primarily in cave diving because it is more streamlined and less likely to collide with cave ceilings and features, I find it also quite comfortable for recreational dives with a pair of AL40s.
It’s also a fun conversation starter with other divers who are curious about my gear!
Wow - I stand corrected. That's super interesting. I've done mostly tropical diving, preferably in a shortie. Maybe one day I'll get dry suit certified; but I didn't enjoy diving in Monterey CA in 10C/50F water in a thick wetsuit.
> But both the backup regulator and dice computer is on your companion. You don’t dive with two yourself.
You're entirely welcome to have backups. I dive with 2 lights, and if the Apple Watch didn't require a subscription I'd gladly buy it to also dive with 2 computers. My divemaster had a second bottle with its own independent octopus for cave diving.
Anything you can afford to double (both financially and in terms of practicality/weight/encumbrance), by all means, go ahead and do it. Triple it if makes sense.
I don't see the point of a backup dive computer for most people.
Every dive I've done has been on a boat with quite a few people all doing the same sites during the day. If your computer failed you can still estimate NDL from others on the boat and just err on the side of caution. Or even just rely on paper charts like people did for decades.
If you're doing cave diving then obviously a whole different story.
I agree, I don't know anyone offhand who uses two computers for recreational diving, and I would absolutely use an Apple watch as my sole dive computer. If you have a computer malfunction you can still safely return to the surface. The only reason to perhaps carry a backup is if you've traveled a long way or otherwise invested a lot of money in the trip.
As a recreational diver I meet many people diving within recreational limits that don't use diving computers at all (they usually rely on their DM or guide dive computer which is good enough for < 30m dives people do recreationally).
For that reason the Apple Watch Ultra seems just fine - it doesn't seem to have any less features than my dedicated Suunto D5 (outside missing integration with air tank) and it seems to be a good competitor to Garmin's Descent MK2 series of diving computers (which are pretty amazing but cost 1200$+ with tank pods).
That sounds like overkill CYA from the legal department. Diving with two computers is not standard protocol in no-decompression recreational diving. It is in technical diving. But if you're in open water, and within no-deco limits, if your computer fails, you can always just end the dive.
As I recall PADI recommendations is to have a backup plan equivalent to the primary plan. Which often is easiest with redundant devices and each buddy having the same or similar computer.
I think it’s very much not recommended to have going computerless as a backup. And the idea that you are safe to do so because your “within no-deco limits” is potentially dangerous, as your relying on the computer to tell you if you are still within that limit.
Many people go quite close to the limit. Personally I stay far away from them, but safety recommendations are the same for everyone.
I think you're saying that PADI's recommendation that "you should have a backup plan" means implicitly that you should dive with two computers. They wouldn't make that an implicit recommendation, they would make it an explicit one. Which they do not. At least not for open water recreational diving.
The backup plan for recreational open water diving would typically be to end the dive if your computer fails, not to continue computerless. At the point that your computer failed, you should have been within no-deco limits, which you can confirm with your partner's computer to a reasonable margin of safety, so you can ascend safely.
I've done a lot of dives, not in many years since having kids, you should not need a computer in order to dive. This is non-essential gear. I'm sure people who regularly dive (like have a 100+ dives) may disagree.
it says it's rated to 40 meters, which is good for most recreational diving. This would not apply for deeper dives.
I'm curious to see what they have for using it with diver communication and collaboration. If one diver sees something of interest, they can easily notify other divers. I'm not sure if or how well Bluetooth works underwater?
The haptic vibration would be useful to notify about reaching maximum bottom time, and for decompression rest stops while ascending.
But I think I would still keep my traditional dive computer next to pressure gauge in my diving setup.
I wonder if they will have a wireless pressure sensor on the tank so you can also track air pressure and consumption? That would be neat.
Bluetooth doesn’t work underwater. Water loves to absorb 2.4ghz signals. I dive with both my iPhone and Apple Watch Ultra and they can’t communicate underwater unless they’re actually touching.
Curiously, 2.4ghz light corresponds to microwaves which is actually long wavelength low energy light. If you have a video stream on while the microwave oven is turned on you'll notice large enough interference to disconnect your stream.
The fact that water absorbs 2.4ghz light is what enables microwave ovens to heat water in the first place. So while it's an inconvenient property during dives, it's very convenient in the kitchen.
Oh that's interesting. Made me go digging. It turns out those air integration wireless tank sensors use very low frequencies, 38kHz. MH8A is the relevant FCC ID.
> I'm not sure if or how well Bluetooth works underwater?
Water tends to block most radio signals pretty quickly. If you are trying to wirelessly transmit data underwater you get much, much better range with sound than you do with light.
a dive computer is more of a "nice to have" then a necessity. You can calculate everything you need to know after the fact, if you have a good idea of your average depth and downtime.
If you're a casual diver (i.e. two dives a day on vacation, maybe a night dive here and there) you don't need a computer at all
Absolutely not! Apple's hardware keeps getting better, but their software reliability has been quite bad over the last 10-ish years. A dive computer is a safety-critical machine - an apple watch is not suitable as a primary unit. Maybe if you're doing only very casual dives and you don't mind the risk of having to do an emergency surface, it is fine.
It’s not misleading, this is Apple releasing the news and it has obviously been developed in collaboration with Apple.
The term “Dive computer” is not something to be taken lightly. It’s hardware you literally depend on to keep you alive during a dive. The fact that Apple is supporting this externally developed app says they have a very higher level of trust in their hardware.
Typically a dive computer would cost more than an Apple Watch and be a single purpose device. The fact that Apple is entering the arena is quite a disruption as other brands will be forced to either compete on price or really raise the bar on innovation to justify their current levels.
Dive computers don't keep you alive during the dive, they keep you alive afterwards :P But seriously, if a dive computer fails, you go off your buddy's computer or scrub the dive and go with a maximum surface interval. At worst, this watch failing means you have to end early. Dive computers have extra safety precautions around surfacing too quickly, but divers are trained to use things such as watching air bubbles to time their surfacing. I have never seen a setup that only uses digital gauges for air pressure.
This is all rec diving (<= 40m). I would never, ever use an Apple device for tech diving, even if some future version is rated for it.
“Apple introduces X” in a PR statement implies that Apple is the product owner. Which it’s not.
“Introducing Oceanic+ for Apple Watch Ultra” is a better title as it removes the conventional idea of product ownership.
Whether or not Apple is directly involved in development is different, as they often have many different partners to showcase new product functionality, and none of those would be suited to “Apple Introduces X” titles either.
> The fact that Apple is entering the arena is quite a disruption as other brands will be forced to either compete on price or really raise the bar on innovation to justify their current levels.
This is the part I don't really understand, unless this app was completely developed out-of-house. How large an arena is this really? Are there really that many potential customers who are both divers and haven't bought an Apple watch? Is there some angle from the business side I'm missing here?
I expect it’s the halo product strategy, same reason mass market car manufacturers produce cars like NSX or Corvette or Ford GT.
It helps the brand (if they can do that, my mundane daily life will be easy), it sells to wealthy enthusiasts and aspirational consumers, it brings people in to showrooms, and it challenges internal teams.
And in the Apple case, their ecosystem is strong. Recreational divers are Apple’s target market, and this should convert a bunch of them to Apple.
Imagining the pitch, it was probably something like limited incremental costs, supports long term ecosystem strategy, reduces revenue from cash cows for competing fitness watch companies.
Is there some angle from the business side I'm missing here?
It sends the message that the Apple Watch Ultra is robust enough for diving, which is pretty cool and makes it a more attractive product even if you don't dive.
We see this in all kinds of products, right? Among watch collectors, 200M diver style watches (from the Casio MDV106 all the way up to Rolex Submariners and beyond) are probably the most popular single style.
We see it in autos, with people buying vehicles with rugged capabilities they don't need. Or in shoes, with people buying athletic shoes for activities they don't partake in. A laptop with more CPU and RAM than they probably need. Etc.
From a purely logical standpoint this is silly, of course. And for some kinds of products like autos this level of excess is deeply wasteful.
However, I think what people are really buying is peace of mind and we all engage in this to some extent! It's simply nice to have a bit of gear so robust you don't have to worry about it!
Most dive computers cost less (often less than half) than an Apple Watch Ultra and don't require any subscription to maintain functionality.
Also, since you are trusting your life to the waterproofing of the watch, a EDC watch that takes abuse all day that could compromise that waterproofing seems like a bit of a risk unless it is only being used as a secondary / backup dive computer.
Depends where you dive, I see a lot of shearwaters in US and I don’t think they make more than one that cheap.
All this “trusting your life” stuff is pretty overblown for rec diving. You have a buddy who has a computer and probably a dive guide, you’re not going that deep, worst case scenario if it fails on a dive just swim a bit shallower than the guide (after signaling them) and sit out the next one. Or dive tables. You can ascend without a computer, and you can make an overkill safety stop (or just buddy up) without a computer.
You must dive different places than I do, I never see pucks except as rentals. I was recently on a trip where people had to figure out whose tank sensor was whose because there were so many.
I guess - I've been diving in Bali, Thailand, Mexico (Cosumel), Europe (Malta, Adriatic sea, Greece) and some other places.
In general, divers there weren't a very wealthy bunch and didn't really run around with 800$+ tech gadgets (although some of us/them did have more expensive computers).
Do they have the same clout tho? I bet you can make some pretty sweet gram content with this.
Edit: why the hate? Do you guys love Instagram or something?
I suspect you are being down-voted because your comment is perceived as sarcastic and/or joking and comments like that tend to get down-voted because they are seen as low-value comments.
I guess I'd be pretty upset if I bought hardware and then had to pay a subscription for planned functionality too. I suck at playing things off as funny when I feel like I'm being targeted by mockery by people I don't know very well
I have 0 domain knowledge as well, but it's pretty clear that no "comparison" can be made considering that Subsurface is a visualizer of logs from a dive computer, and Oceanic+ turns an Apple Watch into a dive computer.
I guess it's possible that Subsurface might add support for visualizing logs from Oceanic+.
I have more than 500 dives under my weight belt, and I have a (regular) Apple watch, but I'm skeptical.
First, there's no mention of Nitrox anywhere (except in a screenshot). Most of the serious folks use this mix (basically, air enriched with some more oxygen) for their dives, it's unclear if — or to what extent — this supports Nitrox.
Second, there's no mention of the decompression algorithm they use. Buhlmann, Suunto RGBM, VPM are examples of algorithms where the assumptions about human physiology are backed by hundreds of thousands of dives, but what is driving this specific piece is kind of a mystery. As this device comes under "life support equipment" category, I would love to see more information about that.
Third, battery life is a concern here, while it almost never is with dedicated dive computers. My main device requires a trip to Switzerland every 10-15 years, and my backup device is serviced locally every 3 years or so; having a "two full days battery life" somewhat pales in comparison.
Finally, $10 a month is pretty expensive, especially when it comes on top of $700 down payment. Unclear what happens when you stop paying. I don't doubt that there are people who don't worry about that kind of money: the watch blogs are full with people discussing diving with their Rolexes and Omegas, but I have never seen anyone doing that in real world. 90% of the people use dive computers (owned or rented), and 90% of the rest use basic G-Shocks; you are lucky to see anyone with a mechanical timepiece (which almost always happens to be made by Seiko).
I'm pretty sure this will be used by people who go on a week of dives every half a year or so (those are most people I meet in touristy dive places these days) and not by tech or nitrox divers.
For those people it makes more sense - no need to carry another dive computer, no need to buy another device and the battery will be just fine for two/three dives in a day.
More serious people will still get their Shearwaters/Garmins and other devices. Although, Apple might cause those companies to go out of business eventually and you'll have to buy their subscription for your sport in a few years anyway :)
$80 a year can get you a rental computer for 8 days, and you don't have to worry about its battery — or you get another piece.
> you'll have to buy their subscription for your sport in a few years anyway
My Spyder (from 2001) will be working just fine long after my Apple Watch will become a deadweight. As there is no subscription, no online service, and no monthly payment, it could also survive the bankruptcy of its manufacturer.
Practically all "touristy dive places" use nitrox today. It lower the risk for the dive center that a accident occur on their boats/shores/guided tours, so they have a huge incentive to offer divers to use it. Nitrox is also fairly easy to mark up since divers tend to be willing to pay extra for the reduced risk.
The only places that don't have any benefit of offering nitrox is if the maximum depth of the place is 9 meters, or if people will remain at the surface.
That really depends where you're going I guess - I've seen most places offer nitrox as option, but most divers (especially recreational and occasional ones) didn't actually pay for it. Less than a third people on most boats I've been to opted for nitrox.
It could be a cultural thing. On red sea trips I have always paid 0% for it as it been free. It makes the live of the guides easier since everyone will be basically on the same mix and having an accident while out on the sea is bad publicity, bad economically, and bad for the tourist. Dive centers on land tend to ask money for nitrox, but I don't even remember when I last saw someone choosing air unless we knew that the maximum depth will be around 5-15 meters where it becomes almost impossible to reach ndl on a single tank.
So is there nothing showing tank air? Most of the newer dive computers have tank companions (dongles if you will) that connect wirelessly to display tank air levels. That feature is non-negotiable to me in a dive computer now.
This is great for the scuba community as it will cause other brands to innovate and most importantly bring diving to a wider audience which will help the sport as a whole which will hopefully raise awareness about endangered underwater ecosystems in the long-run.
Those are like $1200 though; same price as Apple Watch Ultra with 5 years of scuba subscription; and have substantially worse displays, ergonomics, and smart watch UX. I went diving with a friend wearing a Suunto smart dive computer, and he couldn’t figure out how to silence the smart watch notifications because the UX was poor; I’ll never have that kind of issue with Apple device.
There’s a huge market for the Fenix/Epix/Descent line from Garmin, which has always been (much!) more expensive than an Apple Watch. The fitness features and general activity tracking on those is far, far better than what you get from an Apple Watch. The UX is amazing, especially when you’re underwater/wearing thick gloves/running hard. The screens are adequate, if you really want super bright punchy colors you can get that but you’ll pay for it in worse battery life. Oh, and also air integration.
True! I’m speaking as a consumer who was considering several $1200+ options actively - like, I had the tabs open and a Notion DB to catalog the pros and cons of different options. But once I saw the news about the Apple Watch Ultra, I closed the tabs, deleted the Notion DB, and ordered an Apple Watch. I’d like air integration, but vastly prefer spending $800 on an all-day every-day watch to a $1200 sometimes watch.
The Apple Watch is just too limiting for me. Between the types of activities it can track, the actual feedback during an activity being pretty barebones, the lack of competitions, and the terrible battery life I don’t understand who it’s for.
Huish, the makers of this app, own the majority of big names in the industry. The reason it’s called Oceanic+ is because they own Oceanic. Along with Apollo, Bare, Ollis, Zeagle and a few others. Interestingly, they don’t believe enough in this app to brand it Suunto, their more current dive watch brand.
My fear is the next Suunto watch will have subscriptions, if this app proves successful.
Honestly it seems more like a partnership than a distribution agreement. Huish's website (https://www.huishoutdoors.com/suunto/) and the press release itself make it sound like Suunto Outdoors is another brand like the others Huish actually owns, so I'm not confident where they stand. I always assumed Huish owned Suunto given their own site's materials.
I really hope it doesn't cause other brands to adopt the "Dive Computer As A Service" model. I like buying products that I actually own. I feel like pressure to push the cost of reliable dive computers down will do more to democratize diving than an app for an expensive smart watch.
Scuba diving is a fundamentally dangerous and expensive hobby. I don't know if this will make a big dent in the cost of a dive. FWIW a snorkel and a pair of fins are pretty cheap. For ~$50 you can have a lot of fun swimming around exploring coastal ecosystems without needing to stress about signals, equipment, safety stops, or any of that stuff. This is a lot closer to democratizing diving than anything else.
Although I am not the biggest fan of subscription models I am not sure pushing the cost down of dive computers will help democratize diving. I can't imagine it's a very cheap hobby to begin with.
Also, a quick glance, dive computers seem to be $400+, many are $1000+. The watch in question is $800 and I feel like people who are into diving aren't the type of people who find an $800 prohibitively expensive.
You can definitely get a solid dive computer for under $400, and the $1000+ are going to have features that won't be present on the Apple Watch Ultra, like air integration, lower depth ratings, etc.
Paying other people to take you diving can get pretty expensive quickly, but the dive professionals themselves generally do not make a lot of money. It is one of those things that people do professionally because they love it, not because it pays well. (Speaking only about recreational diving here, industrial diving is a whole different beast.)
Most people use dive computers in range of 200-300$, so a subscription based 700$ Apple device isn't democratizing anything, it's just bringing rent seeking to another market.
I haven't dived (dove?) in 10 years. Last gen dive computers are excellent, but super expensive. Before that, I just use a casio watch and gauges. That being said, unless regulations or recommendations have changed, you still need an analog backup gauges that usually have 3 (compass, depth and tank pressure) + extra regulator. So even if the watch decided to die, you are still safe.
I just looked at the screen shots in the article, nothing that different than my old dive computer. If I go back to being a regular recreational diver, I probably would get that watch and app.
This might be a pivotal moment on subscription based hardware. Apple is selling their hardware as a software platform _to_ companies that already sell their hardware. Will this force other companies selling dive computers to adapt and also use publish an app for Apple's platform?
As a diver it's clear to me that the target audience are future divers. We might delude ourselves on the pros and cons of our current dive computer, models and so on. But I am sure someone entering the sport will consider this along the other options.
My personal opinion, a big majority of recreational (shallow) diving does not even require a dive computer and it all comes into LARPing territory. It's good to know your depth and the time you spent underwater, that's all. I have seen people wearing a +1k USD dive computer diving at most <20m. Of course it's none of my business how they decide to part with their money.
This much money will give you a very nice dive computer, albeit terribly complex and completely overkill for most of the rec. diving. If someone is willing to spend that much on a dive computer for rec diving, I guess an apple watch is money better spent? Let's just acknowledge that a Shearwater Perdix is a tough sell to someone that wants to spend this much but dives very very occasionally and shallow.
I am just sad about the subscription model and the implications this might have if/when it proves successful.
I don't think this will be a useful dive computer for most people. When I first heard the Apple Watch would work as a dive computer I was very excited, but having spent some time thinking about it, and having done 20 dives since the watch was announced, I have changed my mind.
The first problem is battery life. I didn't have to replace the battery on my computer for the 20 dives over a week I did recently. If I had gotten a low battery warning, I could have replaced the coin cell battery in five minutes. With the Apple Watch, I would be uncomfortable starting a dive with less than 80% battery, which means remembering to charge it before every dive. If I forget to charge it, then I cannot quickly replace the battery, and I cannot switch to a backup computer if I hadn't taken it with me on my previous dives as it wouldn't know my tissue loading. Forgetting to charge the watch before any dive would mean missing the dive.
The 40m limit is not a good idea. I imagine Apple's legal department are forcing this one, but it's a really bad idea. I went slightly below 40m a few times last week, I know that breaks "the rules", but I know the risks and they honestly aren't that bad if you don't push things too far. Having my computer lock out, refuse to give me NDL times, depth info or deco stop info if needed is not a good idea, especially when you really need it at those depths.
There is also no mention of nitrox, so I assume it's not supported. That would make this the only dive computer released in the last decade that doesn't support nitrox diving. Nobody who is interested in owning a dive computer will want a computer that doesn't support nitrox.
The one good thing I see about this is the haptics. It's really easy to get alert fatigue underwater from other dive computers beeping around you. Haptics would be far better.
> With the Apple Watch, I would be uncomfortable starting a dive with less than 80% battery...
You'd get over that quickly if you owned this watch. It stays above 80% all the time, with just a few minutes on a mag charge in AM, while you're showering for example, and a few minutes in the evening (during a TV show or video game, for example), even when using it all day for work notifications and all night as a sleep monitor.
It goes 2 or 3 days without charge, and that's before their software update to get a multiple of that. Assuming a 30W+ charger brick, it's surprising how quickly it tops back to 80% ready to go another day or two. Workout mode doesn't burn much more, neither does dive.
Your other takes could improve with actual use as well. Nitrox and gas config, for example, is on the 2nd to last and last screenshots of the watch app itself.
Apple Watch Ultra has 2-3 days of battery life on a full charge, and, IME, it really achieves that in real world use.
Nitrox: you can find the answer to this by searching the web.
> Is the Oceanic+ app Nitrox compatible?
> Yes. Oceanic+ is only compatible with air or Nitrox diving to 130 feet (40 meters).
If 40m is a dealbreaker, fine, although you probably would want to do some research to find out what the failure mode actually is. Does it just not work at that depth, but resumes working above it? Does the watch explode? Someone on YouTube probably can answer.
I did 2-3 dives a day for 5 days with the Ultra, using the Depth app, not the full Oceanic+ app that was released today. I charged the watch every other day and didn't get below 40% battery life. I'm curious to see what happens past the 130ft limit... hopefully everything keeps working but they turn the screen yellow, which is what the Depth app does.
I can with confidence say that I would not trust a dive computer that is rated to a maximum of 40 meters. It would be a bit like owning a car where the breaks were rated for a maximum of 110 km/h. Sure, most of the time you might stay under that limit, but for safety equipment you do want some margins.
If a person accidental loose buoyancy for a moment and end up at 41 meters, they could really end up in a terrible situation. The added stress, not being able to monitor ascent rate, and no information regarding NDL (the no decompression limit).
Humans can't survive on their own under water. Visiting there require equipment designed for that purpose. They don't need to be expensive but they do need to do the job. A 90% functional diving equipment can easily result in 100% dead diver.
Sometimes my brain works so weird. When I first saw "Oceanic+," I thought it must be another offering like "TV+" or "Fitness+." I then wondered what it might be and my first thought, I'm not joking, was that this was going to be an ocean nature documentary subscription service to compete with National Geographic on Disney+.
> Oceanic+ enables recreational scuba divers to take the watch they wear every day to previously unreachable depths — up to 40 meters, or 130 feet, to be exact
This is perfect, as the limit for nitrox diving (ie the most frequently used mixture of gas for recreational dives) is a little over 130 ft.
Crashing would be the least of the worries in my opinion. If it crashes, you as a diver know what to do and it’s no different from any other dive computer breaking.
My major worry would be bad sensor readings or software errors leading it to provide bad instructions on how fast you can surface, or how long you need to do decompression stops. Depending on the dive, it’s a situation where differences in the displayed numbers mean the difference between a great day and serious injury.
I really hope; but also expect that this is thoroughly tested.
> If it crashes, you as a diver know what to do and it’s no different from any other dive computer breaking.
Ideally, yes. However, a crash significantly increases the chances of diver error leading to an incident. Diving without a computer requires more careful adherence to a dive plan. If you lose your dive computer and haven't been carefully following a preset plan, you should generally start the process of surfacing immediately and do so with decompression stops that have as large a margin for error as feasible and then stop diving for the day (edit: or if you've been good at staying with your buddy, you use their computer while still adding a healthy margin for error).
I was wondering this as well. The article says "Apple Watch Ultra is certified to WR100 and EN 13319, an internationally recognized standard for dive accessories, including depth gauges." - people with domain knowledge, is this 'enough' certification?
Dive training agencies like PADI and NAUI don't typically certify or endorse particular pieces of equipment such as dive computers. They sell instructional materials and supporting services to retail dive shops, which each deal in a mix of different equipment brands. So the agencies don't want to piss off their main customers by playing favorites with particular manufacturers.
I seem to remember a PADI endorsement of my old dive computer, but that was many moons ago.
They aren't just training agencies. They also certify stuff. I remember seeing their names all over my stuff, but that was many moons ago (mid-1990s. I stopped diving, after I had my noggin worked over by a noggin mechanic).
PADI and NAUI are just training agencies. They do not certify third party equipment. Perhaps they used to do something like that in the mid-1990s but that was before my time.
I was reading the description of the app, and they were talking about using it for “dive planning,” and “post-dive analysis.” This is despite the fact that it has a lot of in-dive stuff.
I suspect that they are keeping their legal derrière covered. A lot of folks will probably use them as “in-dive” computers, like a Mares or Suunto unit, but that will probably be considered an “unsupported use case.”
This is still crazy to me that most (all?) smartwatch cannot get past ~50m WR when I can buy a basic casio for a fraction of the cost with 100m to 200m WR.
But then I guess using a tactile screen underwater is pretty hard. I really don't see the Apple Watch being use has anything but a gadget for diving.
edit: so the apple watch ultra has a WR of 100m. I stand corrected.
a) 99.9% of all dives happening today are going to be <18m which is the maximum depth for PADI Open Water certified divers. And then Advanced certified is still <30m.
b) The point of a dive watch is not just to tell the time. You need to know the depth, time spent underwater, no decompression limits, safety stops etc.
c) Not that I was able to test since the crown is disabled but the Apple Watch crown is very easy to use water even with gloves.
If you're going to complain that he skipped the first definition (hint, subsequent are no less valid), then I'm going to complain that as the app is not a person, the first definition is invalid.
Yet you will still void the warranty if you dive with it:
Apple Watch Ultra has a water resistance rating of 100 meters under ISO standard 22810.
Apple Watch Ultra may be used for recreational scuba diving (with a compatible third-party app from the App Store) to 40 meters, and for high-speed water sports.
Apple Watch Ultra should not be used for diving below 40 meters. Water resistance is not a permanent condition and can diminish over time. For additional information, see support.apple.com/en-us/HT205000.
> Yet you will still void the warranty if you dive with it:
Your quotes don’t say that at all. They say it’s waterproof up to 100m but you should not use it deeper than 40m. There’s a lot to do under water between 0 and 40m.
18m limit for Open Water. 30m limit for Advanced Open Water.
Almost every recreational dive site for commercial reasons would only be taking divers down to those depths.
If you're going beyond 30m then you know what you're doing and are not going to be reckless enough to use any device which is not rated for that depth. No one is going to care about warranty if they are dead.
“Rated to 100m” does not mean what you think it means. It means, essentially, that it theoretically would be safe at 100m depth, assuming you lower it slowly and don’t move it about at all. IIUC, local water pressure varies significantly when you move something around underwater, which is why “100m pressure proof” does not mean “can be brought down to 100m depth”.
Movement induced dynamic pressure increase is sometimes the subject
of urban myths and marketing arguments for diver's watches with
high water resistance ratings. When a diver makes a fast swimming
movement of 10m/s (32.8ft/s) (the best competitive swimmers and
finswimmers can not swim nearly that fast) physics dictates that
the diver generates a dynamic pressure of 0.5 bars (50kPa) or the
equivalent of 5 meters of additional water depth.
One other thing stands out to me...
It means, essentially, that it theoretically would be safe at 100m depth
It's interesting (alarming?) that they chose the "weaker" ISO standard 22810 for water resistance, in which a sampling of units are tested:
ISO 6425 is much more stringent and specifies that every single unit is pressure tested to 125% of rated capability, ie a 200M ISO 6425 watch has been individually tested at 250M for a period of time.
ISO 6425 is generally used for dive watch, eg a Rolex Submariner, not dive computer. I don't know any dive masters who wear a dive watch while diving; they seem like mostly a fashion / status symbol kind of thing? I have no interest in them anyways.
I looked at the Garmin spec sheets before buying my Apple Watch and didn't find any of their computer/watch combos listing ISO 6425. Instead they list a depth (usually 100M) and attest "Tested to engineering standard EN13319 for dive compliance", see https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/
My understanding is that before the advent of dive computers, dive watches were used for diving so that you could time your ascents and so forth. That's what lead to the development of the (quite strict) ISO 6425 standard.
they seem like mostly a fashion / status symbol kind of thing
Yeah, this is my understanding from talking to diver friends. As a guy who likes watches yes, they're crazy popular in the watch community.
They've become kind of a genre unto themselves. Citizen, Seiko, and others make affordable ISO 6425 models. I own a few, didn't pay more than $150 for any of them.
Though, I dunno about the "status symbol" aspect. For $30 you can get a diver-style watch that looks like an actual ISO 6425 watch unless you know specifically what you're looking for. So I don't think anybody would be impressed by them. But they are fun to own and rather handsome, if you like that kind of thing.
I've been scuba diving / freediving for more than a decade and very, very few divers ever go below 40m. The amount of training, equipment, risk, annoyance, time, ..., associated with 40m+ scuba diving just isn't worth it. Similarly, not a lot of people are capable of freediving to 40m+, and just a handful of people can freedive anywhere near 100m (without mechanical assistance). It would be very disappointing if a watch rated to 100m couldn't accommodate recreational scuba/freediving to 40m.
I truly wonder. Why is Apple doing that? If I'm not mistaken, it is a small niche in terms of revenue.
My hypothesis is that this is perhaps a new approach for marketing: find hobbies that correlate the most with the populations with the biggest potential revenue, taking into account the networking and demographic effects within such a population.
Just throwing this off the top of my head. Bear with me :-).
Everything about the Ultra model is like this. It's pure aspiration porn made physical.
It worked really well for Apple in the '00s. Their computer hardware was expensive enough that most people wouldn't think to buy it over a similar PC. Today, Apple's phones, watches and tablets are much more commodity items (cue someone telling me the sales figures tell a different story). The economics are still largely the same now, but the perception of Apple hardware has changed. They use the XDR screen, the Mac Pro (the big boxy one) and now the Ultra series watch to create the sense of mystique.
I think that's basically right. They've been weaving "high-status outdoor adventuring" into their brand for a long time — think about the codenames High Sierra and Mavericks, or going to an Apple store and seeing a ski trip under planning in the sample iMessages.
A big part of the way Apple signals their products as clean, healthy, and high-status is by depicting themselves as exactly that sort of people.
(Not to imply that this is particularly disingenuous, but they know exactly what they're doing)
Haptics you can feel through a 7mm wetsuit? I'm impressed by that, although I'd not want them turned up that high on my bare wrist!
This seems like a winner for vacation diving. For those divers that manage a couple dives a year on the family trip to the Caribbean, you have a device you know extremely well from daily life and that you know you keep charged, rather than a standalone computer you kinda forgot to get serviced or, worse, have to rent. Big, clear ascent rate warnings in color. It looks more accessible than some inscrutable Suunto, especially with a companion phone app.
If I had an apple watch I'd wear this it on my other wrist to my Perdix just to get GPS integration and all the health monitoring too - interesting to correlate heart rate with events in the dive, gas consumption and so on.
I have Garmin's competing product the Descent Mk2 and can feel the haptic alerts through a drysuit. Those alerts are probably helpful for less experienced divers but I disabled them (silent diving mode) to reduce distractions.
Optical wrist heart rate sensors can't read through an exposure suit. Garmin has chest heart rate monitor straps which can record heart rate during a dive (within depth limits) and then upload those to the dive computer upon surfacing. I don't think Apple supports those.
> Optical wrist heart rate sensors can't read through an exposure suit.
I didn't think of that! Dense of me. But heart rate monitoring isn't a primary reason to buy this anyway.
GPS doesn't work underwater. Would it be for finding your way back to the boat after resurfacing?
If you can't see your boat after you've resurfaced something has gone pretty wrong.
Most professional divers will be using a Surface Marker Buoy which indicates where they are underwater and where the boat should be looking to pick them up.
One feature that would be very useful under water but was disabled was Compass way tracking. Hopefully Apple thinks about it allowing it.
> Most professional divers will be using a Surface Marker Buoy which indicates where they are underwater and where the boat should be looking to pick them up.
These are generally deployed only during the safety stop, not for the entirety of the dive for obvious reasons-- handling up to 120ft of line underwater for the length of a dive would be near impossible. They would be pretty useless if you resurface and can't see the boat.
That said, you are right, something would have had to go pretty wrong to not see the boat. During a dive trip earlier this year my buddy and I resurfaced 1mi+ from where we were supposed to. But even then, we saw the boat, they saw us and our SMBs and it wasn't a huge deal other than getting the "pickup of shame".
That really depends on local dive conditions. For drift diving in the Gulf Stream off of Florida it's common to tow a float during the entire dive. For tech diving in the Northeast Pacific Ocean we can't tow a float while on the bottom due to rock structures and kelp. But we will shoot an SMB as soon as we leave the structure (rather than waiting until we reach a shallow stop) so that the boat crew can follow us as we drift during deco.
Of course it's always a good idea to carry other signalling devices beyond an SMB in case you get separated from the boat.
I think the only time I've ever seen SMBs used outside of the safety stop are drift dives. And even then, it's been the exception rather than the norm.
It's pretty easy to get tangled up if you're doing anything but a single direction drift dive where you're both away from structures and moving in a continuous straight line that doesn't cross itself.
Also for tagging your dives. Your watch would know where you descended/ascended.
It’s great for when you’re in the middle of nowhere on a liveaboard and you forget the names of the dive sites. My Suunto watch uses the phone’s GPS for the same purpose.
Yes exactly, it's for tagging dives. Times and locations only, nothing about what happens underwater.
Edit: actually my computer does that too, well, the app does sort of: the app I have for capturing data from it takes the GPS location when you trigger a sync. Since I don't sync on the boat (why play with a phone?!) it's not very useful. You can easily edit though, drag a pin around and plop the rough location. MacDive, it's a decent bit of software.
I use Dive Log[0] which I believe does the same thing, tags when it syncs. Suunto's app as well. I'll usually initiate a sync when I get back on the boat if only to fill in the additional details like island/country/buddy. I started doing it on my first post-OW class dives so it's nice to look back and see all the dives I've done, who I did them with, what equipment I used, etc.
[0]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dive-log/id301049600
If your dive computer craps out, it would certainly be an expensive backup
Costs less than a spare Garmin Descent MK1.
Costs more than a spare Garmin Descent G1 for $500 (with rebate).
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/766516
How many watches do divers wear?
Usually just one dive computer, which is sometimes in a wristwatch form factor. Some divers do carry a second backup in case the main computer fails.
I think this looks amazing for warm-water vacation divers - typically they are stuck with rental equipment, which usually means a cheap, dated computer on a bulky console. Having a well-designed UI will definitely improve these divers safety - the last boat dive I went on, an experienced diver blew past no-deco limits because he didn't understand his unfamiliar rental computer.
That being said, I can't personally imagine taking the Apple Watch Ultra to, say, 80-90 feet if it's only rated to 130. It's just too expensive.
Slight clarification: the Apple Watch Ultra has a water resistance rating of 100m. The Oceanic+ app has a 130ft/40m limit because that's the recreational diving limit.
[1]: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP879?viewlocale=en_IN&locale=e....
For those curious, 40m is a standard cutoff for rec diving because
A) oxygen partial pressure with compressed air reaches 1.05atm, with 1.2-1.4atm posing a serious risk of oxygen-induced seizures (extremely dangerous)
B) nitrogen partial pressure becomes high enough that it becomes narcotic (every gas gets you high at enough pressure, even noble gasses).
There is virtually zero risk of an oxygen toxicity seizure in the 1.2 - 1.4 atm range. I don't think there has ever been a confirmed case of a sport diver toxing at that level. We normally target about 1.2 atm for the working phase of the dive (reduce slightly for long exposures) and 1.6 for deco (with back gas breaks for long oxygen stops).
Narcosis is an issue with nitrogen and oxygen (as well as most other gasses). Helium is the exception. It is a noble gas and has no real narcotic effect; rather the opposite. Other noble gasses such as argon are much more narcotic than nitrogen and aren't used as diving breathing gasses (outside of a few limited experiments).
The other problem with nitrogen and oxygen is that they are relatively dense and so at greater depths they cause increased work of breathing, which in turn causes CO2 accumulation. CO2 is itself highly narcotic, and has other negative physiological effects. So for deeper dives we add progressively more helium to the mix.
Oh, cool! It looks like that's the limit of Apple's Depth app, as well, which is what I found when I searched, and assumed it was the limit of the watch.
Well that's definitely better - I wonder what happens when you go under 130 feet, though. A dedicated dive computer would at least provide accurate information, rather than throwing you to the wolves because you exceeded some legal limit.
Also on the plus side, some of the existing air pressure transmitters use bluetooth, so if they could get that working, they'd actually be one of the cheapest air-integrated computers on the market.
(edit: they do not use bluetooth, they use low-frequency radio ~38khz)
I think I'll stick with my Shearwater Peregrine though, pros and cons considered.
DC Rainmaker showed what happens to the watch when you take it past the max depth in his review [1] (using a pressure chamber).
I think your concerns are valid and merited for your very advanced level of diving, but at the same time the vast, vast, vast majority of divers aren't going anywhere near 130 feet. If I were going on a standard "simple" dive to <60 feet, I think I'd be pretty comfortable with just the apple watch ultra, a dumb watch + cheap depth guage and a written back-up plan.
1: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/11/diving-with-the-apple-wa...
Yes, agree completely. Would be happy to have just this on a 60 foot dive. And will be happy to see it on the wrists of other divers on the boat, as I think it will make them safer vs the status quo. Just wouldn't _buy_ it for that purpose myself, I think there are better options if you research a bit.
Also, I never dive past recreational limits, I'm not a technical diver by any means. I would simply have philosophical concerns about a piece of equipment that could provide accurate information beyond recreational limits, but simply doesn't for "legal" reasons. It probably makes sense to people - "oh they don't want to be liable for giving advice past recreational limits", but other companies seem to have navigated this legal issue and choose to provide accurate information regardless of this arbitrary limit.
As another commenter pointed out, I have no idea what it does past 130 feet, but the disclaimer that it _cannot_ be used past 130 feet, rather than one that says you _shouldn't_ use it past 130 feet, is somewhat concerning to me, even if I don't approach those limits.
I like that you assume it's going to shit the bed vs. assuming that they planned for it, given the hardware supports it.
I'm not assuming anything - and I'm not speaking as a pundit on Apple, I'm speaking as a consumer in the target audience with specific, important questions about a safety-critical piece of equipment. The answer to my question is not clear from this marketing release, and I'm simply saying that affects my likelihood to purchase.
Also, in the case of lack of evidence either way, assuming it would shit the bed is _definitely_ the right approach in diving.
It's human instinct to survive time will tell if this new thing is comparable to a real dedicated diving computer. Diving is dangerous.
Knowing the current state of software development and Apple's tendency to make pretty things on surface but that breaks down when you actually use it, I'd expect it to tell you you can swim as fast as possible to the surface without decompressing, even from 100m deep.
I took it to 140ft a month ago. It complained and turned the screen yellow as a warning, but readings in the built in Depth app (which measures depth, water temp, and dive time but is NOT a dive computer) matched my dive computer exactly at that depth and all other depths.
It’s rated as water resistant to 100m, 300+ feet - it’s just the software and measurement sensor bits that get queasy at 130ft.
The software APIs for measuring depth have an enum for this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coremotion/cmwater...
Was curious about this myself. I've gone deeper than 40m on a recreational dive, blue hole I think. Obviously they aren't 'supposed' to do that, but it obviously routinely happens and it'd be a bummer if your fancy watch dies at that depth
> That being said, I can't personally imagine taking the Apple Watch Ultra to, say, 80-90 feet if it's only rated to 130. It's just too expensive.
I get the feeling of it being too expensive - but technically? If anything is to be expected from Apple, it is to under-promise on advertised specifications, and at least here in Europe, under consumer protection laws I can hold Apple accountable for not delivering upon their spec [1]. The hardest thing with anything underwater is pressure differential anyway - old analog watches have a lot of air inside which is compressible, which means you need strong seals and construction to avoid the pressure differential to simply crack the case. A modern digital watch however? Space is scarce so every cubic millimetre is packed with solid incompressible materials, making it way easier to withstand higher pressure.
[1] Actually had to do that with a CAT phone many years back when I worked in construction, a simple fall on a floor slab broke the screen. I made a backup (back then, that was actually feasible because rooting was easy, another personal gripe I have with recent Android), went up to the retailer and had it shipped in - a week later I had a brand new device and a written apology that the product was not up to spec.
My understanding is the Apple Watch Ultra is physically rated to 100 meters / 328 feet.
The 40 meters / 130 feet rating is for the dive computer functionality.
> For access to decompression tracking, tissue loading, the location planner, and an unlimited logbook capacity, Oceanic+ is $9.99 (US) per month, or annually for $79.99 (US). Family Sharing is also available for $129 (US) annually, allowing access for up to five people.
I want to take a sabbatical and clone this stuff as an open source project. It’s so obnoxious that Apple advertised the watch as a dive computer, but you need to pay a third party $10/mo to use those features. I was considering sport watches in the $1200 range which make the $800 Apple Watch look like a steal, but after 5 years the total ownership cost of Apple Watch will be higher. It still seems like a fine deal on paper since outside of scuba, the Apple Watch is vastly preferable to a Garmin or Suunto to me, but it’s annoying!
Coincidentally, Linus Torvalds took a sabbatical to make a dive log program. https://subsurface-divelog.org/
You don't need to keep the subscription active. Just enable when you need it.
Right but will it drop my logged dives? It claims to only store the 15 recent dives unless you subscribe. Really I want to store dive logs in an open format synced via iCloud, Google Drive, or uploaded to Notion, ideally without needing to screw around with a second app, import/export process, etc.
I only dive a couple months out of the year. This seems like a steal for me.
Has Apple added the ability to do group challenges with your friends yet? That, the battery life, and the lack of smartwatch features are what keep me happy with Garmin.
That would make Apple release Oceanic+ Pro, and if you do it again, Oceanic+ Pro Max.
Any HN scuba divers here that would use this as their only dive computer on a dive? I'm not a scuba diver myself but do engage in other adventure sports where reliable equipment can make the difference between a great trip and disaster. I'd be very reluctant to trust my life or health to this.
I'm a recreational diver. I wouldn't use this as my _only_ computer, but I would say the same for the computers I currently use. I always dive with 2 computers just in case one fails, a battery dies, etc. As 'latchkey said, never rely on a single piece of equipment. With that being said, I would be willing to swap out my wrist computer for the Apple Watch Ultra. The superior display and UX would actually be a big quality of life improvement over my current wrist computer. And, I'd still have my backup computer in my SPG to compare against or fall back to.
Personally, I'm comfortable diving with one computer... provided I also have an analog SPG (as a backup for an air-integrated computer) and run the dive tables on paper as well. If the dive computer fails, I just revert to paper.
I just spent a month in Thailand diving around the sites near to BKK e.g. Koh Chang with the Apple Watch and used it as my only underwater computer. I had a proper dive computer on the boat to help with planning.
a) You never trust your life to any single device and there are always backup plans if something fails. And at recreational depths you're not going to do severe damage if your watch fails and you lose no decompression limit information.
b) The watch is such a joy to use underwater. It's 100x brighter and clearer than other devices so you see information at a glance. It actually made the whole diving experience better it was that good.
c) I've had Apple Watches since the original one and reliability has always been excellent. Easily on par with other dive computers. And of course the ease and quality of the user experience is significantly better.
> I've had Apple Watches since the original one and reliability has always been excellent.
I've had numerous activity tracking apps crash on me randomly, I think because they have been running out of memory on my Apple Watch 3. Strava was one of them. I stopped using it for this purpose after I lost a few tracks.
With such an old device my guess would be that the battery's internal resistance is high enough that the watch is browning out.
Either that or the watch is throttling to prevent browning out, and the app crashes as a result of loops / event handling not happening fast enough and stuff 'piling up.'
Not my only, but if I was starting out again I'd consider an apple watch ultra over a dedicated computer. Consequences of computer failure on a well-planned open water rec dive are fairly minimal. This doodad, plus a backup basic watch capable of working at that depth (so you have an idea of time although really your decision to surface is largely driven by air remaining) and I'd be confident. Ascent rate is the only unknown then, but you have a buddy or a group to follow. If you're really unlucky, losing your computer and your group, you just remember your training and swim up really really slowly. Missing your safety stop isn't going to kill you. Losing your dive boat might though :)
I've done a lot of dives, in the late 80's, early 90's. We didn't have any of this fancy stuff. For sure, you never rely on a single piece of equipment.
Except for more advanced (deeper) dives, a dive computer is fairly unnecessary. 700 lbs of air pressure left, go back up, slowly.
I did most of my diving right off the coast of san diego, where there are amazing kelp forests. I preferred less deep dives (35-50 feet) anyway... you start going deep, you have much less air/time down below.
I would assume this to be a very tiny market for users.
I plan to do so, and already purchased an Apple Watch Ultra for this purpose. I also started writing my own dive computer app for the watch to learn SwiftUI. My plan is to dive a few more times with both a traditional rented dive computer and the Ultra to build confidence, and then switch 100% over to the Ultra.
I would highly recommend at least buying a cheaper secondary dive computer to take with you in case something goes wrong.
That’s standard diving practice. You have a backup regulator and a backup dice computer. And in the event of both primært and secondsry familier you have a plan for how to handle it.
But both the backup regulator and dice computer is on your companion. You don’t dive with two yourself.
You don't dive with two regulators? I haven't been in a while but I fairly distinctly remember having two regulators per person, that way if one fails you don't have to immediately fall back on passing regulators back and forth breath-by-breath. The backup isn't a particularly nice regulator, probably reusing the mechanism your vest uses to inflate, but better than nothing.
I would refuse to dive with anyone who isn't carrying two regulators. Sharing a respirator is feasible...but it requires practice to do well and significantly impairs your ability to move around or accomplish other tasks.
Backup dive computers are much less common and most people use their buddy as their backup computer. It is much safer to surface without a functioning dive computer than it is to surface without a functioning regulator.
Second stage is duplicated but the first stage is still a single point of failure. The backup for that is your buddy.
Which is precisely why I would refuse to dive with someone that doesn't carry two second stages.
Regulators come in two stages; you carry a backup second stage for someone else if their system fails - but you don’t carry two first stages (the part that screws onto the tank).
In sidemount diving, each diver carries two completely independent tanks & regulators, one on each side of their body.
While it is used primarily in cave diving because it is more streamlined and less likely to collide with cave ceilings and features, I find it also quite comfortable for recreational dives with a pair of AL40s.
It’s also a fun conversation starter with other divers who are curious about my gear!
We do carry two first stages, but mostly only in colder water when there's a chance the first stage would freeze (water under 15C or so?) :)
You get air tanks that have 2 mounts for first stage and the octo goes into the separate first stage, giving you two independent setups.
I've only seen crazy swiss people do that though.
Wow - I stand corrected. That's super interesting. I've done mostly tropical diving, preferably in a shortie. Maybe one day I'll get dry suit certified; but I didn't enjoy diving in Monterey CA in 10C/50F water in a thick wetsuit.
> But both the backup regulator and dice computer is on your companion. You don’t dive with two yourself.
You're entirely welcome to have backups. I dive with 2 lights, and if the Apple Watch didn't require a subscription I'd gladly buy it to also dive with 2 computers. My divemaster had a second bottle with its own independent octopus for cave diving.
Anything you can afford to double (both financially and in terms of practicality/weight/encumbrance), by all means, go ahead and do it. Triple it if makes sense.
I don't see the point of a backup dive computer for most people.
Every dive I've done has been on a boat with quite a few people all doing the same sites during the day. If your computer failed you can still estimate NDL from others on the boat and just err on the side of caution. Or even just rely on paper charts like people did for decades.
If you're doing cave diving then obviously a whole different story.
I agree, I don't know anyone offhand who uses two computers for recreational diving, and I would absolutely use an Apple watch as my sole dive computer. If you have a computer malfunction you can still safely return to the surface. The only reason to perhaps carry a backup is if you've traveled a long way or otherwise invested a lot of money in the trip.
As a recreational diver I meet many people diving within recreational limits that don't use diving computers at all (they usually rely on their DM or guide dive computer which is good enough for < 30m dives people do recreationally).
For that reason the Apple Watch Ultra seems just fine - it doesn't seem to have any less features than my dedicated Suunto D5 (outside missing integration with air tank) and it seems to be a good competitor to Garmin's Descent MK2 series of diving computers (which are pretty amazing but cost 1200$+ with tank pods).
Given that the app developer is a manufacturer of dive computers (including a watch), it’s likely to be relatively trustworthy.
Nonetheless, from the press release: “Always follow diving protocols and dive with a companion and have a secondary device.”
That sounds like overkill CYA from the legal department. Diving with two computers is not standard protocol in no-decompression recreational diving. It is in technical diving. But if you're in open water, and within no-deco limits, if your computer fails, you can always just end the dive.
As I recall PADI recommendations is to have a backup plan equivalent to the primary plan. Which often is easiest with redundant devices and each buddy having the same or similar computer.
I think it’s very much not recommended to have going computerless as a backup. And the idea that you are safe to do so because your “within no-deco limits” is potentially dangerous, as your relying on the computer to tell you if you are still within that limit.
Many people go quite close to the limit. Personally I stay far away from them, but safety recommendations are the same for everyone.
I think you're saying that PADI's recommendation that "you should have a backup plan" means implicitly that you should dive with two computers. They wouldn't make that an implicit recommendation, they would make it an explicit one. Which they do not. At least not for open water recreational diving.
The backup plan for recreational open water diving would typically be to end the dive if your computer fails, not to continue computerless. At the point that your computer failed, you should have been within no-deco limits, which you can confirm with your partner's computer to a reasonable margin of safety, so you can ascend safely.
I've done a lot of dives, not in many years since having kids, you should not need a computer in order to dive. This is non-essential gear. I'm sure people who regularly dive (like have a 100+ dives) may disagree.
it says it's rated to 40 meters, which is good for most recreational diving. This would not apply for deeper dives.
I'm curious to see what they have for using it with diver communication and collaboration. If one diver sees something of interest, they can easily notify other divers. I'm not sure if or how well Bluetooth works underwater?
The haptic vibration would be useful to notify about reaching maximum bottom time, and for decompression rest stops while ascending.
But I think I would still keep my traditional dive computer next to pressure gauge in my diving setup.
I wonder if they will have a wireless pressure sensor on the tank so you can also track air pressure and consumption? That would be neat.
Bluetooth doesn’t work underwater. Water loves to absorb 2.4ghz signals. I dive with both my iPhone and Apple Watch Ultra and they can’t communicate underwater unless they’re actually touching.
Curiously, 2.4ghz light corresponds to microwaves which is actually long wavelength low energy light. If you have a video stream on while the microwave oven is turned on you'll notice large enough interference to disconnect your stream.
The fact that water absorbs 2.4ghz light is what enables microwave ovens to heat water in the first place. So while it's an inconvenient property during dives, it's very convenient in the kitchen.
Oh that's interesting. Made me go digging. It turns out those air integration wireless tank sensors use very low frequencies, 38kHz. MH8A is the relevant FCC ID.
> I'm not sure if or how well Bluetooth works underwater?
Water tends to block most radio signals pretty quickly. If you are trying to wirelessly transmit data underwater you get much, much better range with sound than you do with light.
> I'm not sure if or how well Bluetooth works underwater?
It doesn’t, which is why heart rate monitors intended for swimming activities have on-board storage.
a dive computer is more of a "nice to have" then a necessity. You can calculate everything you need to know after the fact, if you have a good idea of your average depth and downtime.
If you're a casual diver (i.e. two dives a day on vacation, maybe a night dive here and there) you don't need a computer at all
Absolutely not! Apple's hardware keeps getting better, but their software reliability has been quite bad over the last 10-ish years. A dive computer is a safety-critical machine - an apple watch is not suitable as a primary unit. Maybe if you're doing only very casual dives and you don't mind the risk of having to do an emergency surface, it is fine.
I’ve only done a half dozen dives, but losing the computer isn’t what I’d call an emergency.
You call the dive and surface slowly. Maybe you don’t do a second dive if you can’t be sure of your limits. It’s an inconvenience.
Title is misleading. This is a third party application for the Apple Watch Ultra that is being highlighted, not an Apple product itself.
It’s not misleading, this is Apple releasing the news and it has obviously been developed in collaboration with Apple.
The term “Dive computer” is not something to be taken lightly. It’s hardware you literally depend on to keep you alive during a dive. The fact that Apple is supporting this externally developed app says they have a very higher level of trust in their hardware.
Typically a dive computer would cost more than an Apple Watch and be a single purpose device. The fact that Apple is entering the arena is quite a disruption as other brands will be forced to either compete on price or really raise the bar on innovation to justify their current levels.
Dive computers don't keep you alive during the dive, they keep you alive afterwards :P But seriously, if a dive computer fails, you go off your buddy's computer or scrub the dive and go with a maximum surface interval. At worst, this watch failing means you have to end early. Dive computers have extra safety precautions around surfacing too quickly, but divers are trained to use things such as watching air bubbles to time their surfacing. I have never seen a setup that only uses digital gauges for air pressure.
This is all rec diving (<= 40m). I would never, ever use an Apple device for tech diving, even if some future version is rated for it.
“Apple introduces X” in a PR statement implies that Apple is the product owner. Which it’s not.
“Introducing Oceanic+ for Apple Watch Ultra” is a better title as it removes the conventional idea of product ownership.
Whether or not Apple is directly involved in development is different, as they often have many different partners to showcase new product functionality, and none of those would be suited to “Apple Introduces X” titles either.
"Jay Leno introduces ColdPlay" does not imply Jay Leno is the album producer.
> The fact that Apple is entering the arena is quite a disruption as other brands will be forced to either compete on price or really raise the bar on innovation to justify their current levels.
This is the part I don't really understand, unless this app was completely developed out-of-house. How large an arena is this really? Are there really that many potential customers who are both divers and haven't bought an Apple watch? Is there some angle from the business side I'm missing here?
I expect it’s the halo product strategy, same reason mass market car manufacturers produce cars like NSX or Corvette or Ford GT.
It helps the brand (if they can do that, my mundane daily life will be easy), it sells to wealthy enthusiasts and aspirational consumers, it brings people in to showrooms, and it challenges internal teams.
And in the Apple case, their ecosystem is strong. Recreational divers are Apple’s target market, and this should convert a bunch of them to Apple.
Imagining the pitch, it was probably something like limited incremental costs, supports long term ecosystem strategy, reduces revenue from cash cows for competing fitness watch companies.
We see this in all kinds of products, right? Among watch collectors, 200M diver style watches (from the Casio MDV106 all the way up to Rolex Submariners and beyond) are probably the most popular single style.
We see it in autos, with people buying vehicles with rugged capabilities they don't need. Or in shoes, with people buying athletic shoes for activities they don't partake in. A laptop with more CPU and RAM than they probably need. Etc.
From a purely logical standpoint this is silly, of course. And for some kinds of products like autos this level of excess is deeply wasteful.
However, I think what people are really buying is peace of mind and we all engage in this to some extent! It's simply nice to have a bit of gear so robust you don't have to worry about it!
Most dive computers cost less (often less than half) than an Apple Watch Ultra and don't require any subscription to maintain functionality.
Also, since you are trusting your life to the waterproofing of the watch, a EDC watch that takes abuse all day that could compromise that waterproofing seems like a bit of a risk unless it is only being used as a secondary / backup dive computer.
Depends where you dive, I see a lot of shearwaters in US and I don’t think they make more than one that cheap.
All this “trusting your life” stuff is pretty overblown for rec diving. You have a buddy who has a computer and probably a dive guide, you’re not going that deep, worst case scenario if it fails on a dive just swim a bit shallower than the guide (after signaling them) and sit out the next one. Or dive tables. You can ascend without a computer, and you can make an overkill safety stop (or just buddy up) without a computer.
Yeah, but most people don't use Shearwaters, they use cheaper Mares pucks or other such devices.
Although, Apple Watch Ultra will be very competitive against devices like Garmin Descent or Suunto D5.
You must dive different places than I do, I never see pucks except as rentals. I was recently on a trip where people had to figure out whose tank sensor was whose because there were so many.
I guess - I've been diving in Bali, Thailand, Mexico (Cosumel), Europe (Malta, Adriatic sea, Greece) and some other places.
In general, divers there weren't a very wealthy bunch and didn't really run around with 800$+ tech gadgets (although some of us/them did have more expensive computers).
I use my Apple Watch Ultra for running, hiking, diving, health tracking etc.
So it's far more capable than just a dive computer.
And again it doesn't require an ongoing subscription you just turn on/off as you need it.
Do they have the same clout tho? I bet you can make some pretty sweet gram content with this. Edit: why the hate? Do you guys love Instagram or something?
I suspect you are being down-voted because your comment is perceived as sarcastic and/or joking and comments like that tend to get down-voted because they are seen as low-value comments.
I guess I'd be pretty upset if I bought hardware and then had to pay a subscription for planned functionality too. I suck at playing things off as funny when I feel like I'm being targeted by mockery by people I don't know very well
> Edit: why the hate?
Because this post is pure sarcasm with nothing of value to add except for mocking people you disagree with.
> Do you guys love Instagram or something?
Nope. Hate it - but I don't feel the need to go spewing that hate over a tangentially related thread which has actual interesting discussion.
They have the same “keep you alive” clout which is arguably much more important in diving.
There are also thousands of cooler things that would bring you more views than an AWU in any typical tropical dive.
Apple is the company who seems to be announcing this, although it does make it sound like a first-party application.
It does seem like Apple was involved though, so I guess it's not really 100% 3rd-party either. Maybe we can call it 2nd-party?
> Designed by Huish Outdoors in collaboration with Apple,
This reminds me of Linus Torvalds Subsurface project: https://subsurface-divelog.org/
Unfortunately I don't have enough domain knowledge to do a comparison.
I have 0 domain knowledge as well, but it's pretty clear that no "comparison" can be made considering that Subsurface is a visualizer of logs from a dive computer, and Oceanic+ turns an Apple Watch into a dive computer.
I guess it's possible that Subsurface might add support for visualizing logs from Oceanic+.
I have more than 500 dives under my weight belt, and I have a (regular) Apple watch, but I'm skeptical.
First, there's no mention of Nitrox anywhere (except in a screenshot). Most of the serious folks use this mix (basically, air enriched with some more oxygen) for their dives, it's unclear if — or to what extent — this supports Nitrox.
Second, there's no mention of the decompression algorithm they use. Buhlmann, Suunto RGBM, VPM are examples of algorithms where the assumptions about human physiology are backed by hundreds of thousands of dives, but what is driving this specific piece is kind of a mystery. As this device comes under "life support equipment" category, I would love to see more information about that.
Third, battery life is a concern here, while it almost never is with dedicated dive computers. My main device requires a trip to Switzerland every 10-15 years, and my backup device is serviced locally every 3 years or so; having a "two full days battery life" somewhat pales in comparison.
Finally, $10 a month is pretty expensive, especially when it comes on top of $700 down payment. Unclear what happens when you stop paying. I don't doubt that there are people who don't worry about that kind of money: the watch blogs are full with people discussing diving with their Rolexes and Omegas, but I have never seen anyone doing that in real world. 90% of the people use dive computers (owned or rented), and 90% of the rest use basic G-Shocks; you are lucky to see anyone with a mechanical timepiece (which almost always happens to be made by Seiko).
I'm pretty sure this will be used by people who go on a week of dives every half a year or so (those are most people I meet in touristy dive places these days) and not by tech or nitrox divers.
For those people it makes more sense - no need to carry another dive computer, no need to buy another device and the battery will be just fine for two/three dives in a day.
More serious people will still get their Shearwaters/Garmins and other devices. Although, Apple might cause those companies to go out of business eventually and you'll have to buy their subscription for your sport in a few years anyway :)
> For those people it makes more sense
$80 a year can get you a rental computer for 8 days, and you don't have to worry about its battery — or you get another piece.
> you'll have to buy their subscription for your sport in a few years anyway
My Spyder (from 2001) will be working just fine long after my Apple Watch will become a deadweight. As there is no subscription, no online service, and no monthly payment, it could also survive the bankruptcy of its manufacturer.
Practically all "touristy dive places" use nitrox today. It lower the risk for the dive center that a accident occur on their boats/shores/guided tours, so they have a huge incentive to offer divers to use it. Nitrox is also fairly easy to mark up since divers tend to be willing to pay extra for the reduced risk.
The only places that don't have any benefit of offering nitrox is if the maximum depth of the place is 9 meters, or if people will remain at the surface.
That really depends where you're going I guess - I've seen most places offer nitrox as option, but most divers (especially recreational and occasional ones) didn't actually pay for it. Less than a third people on most boats I've been to opted for nitrox.
It could be a cultural thing. On red sea trips I have always paid 0% for it as it been free. It makes the live of the guides easier since everyone will be basically on the same mix and having an accident while out on the sea is bad publicity, bad economically, and bad for the tourist. Dive centers on land tend to ask money for nitrox, but I don't even remember when I last saw someone choosing air unless we knew that the maximum depth will be around 5-15 meters where it becomes almost impossible to reach ndl on a single tank.
Oceanic+ uses Bühlmann[0], and even lets you adjust your gradient factors! That last bit surprised me.
[0] https://www.oceanicworldwide.com/oceanic-plus-in-depth/#:~:t...
i just downloaded the app on iPhone and the dive planner allows you to change the gas mix (oxygen percentage) so it looks like it supports nitrox.
So is there nothing showing tank air? Most of the newer dive computers have tank companions (dongles if you will) that connect wirelessly to display tank air levels. That feature is non-negotiable to me in a dive computer now.
This is great for the scuba community as it will cause other brands to innovate and most importantly bring diving to a wider audience which will help the sport as a whole which will hopefully raise awareness about endangered underwater ecosystems in the long-run.
Garmin and Suunto already have dive computers with full smart watch capabilities. Most importantly without a subscription model to use the features.
Those are like $1200 though; same price as Apple Watch Ultra with 5 years of scuba subscription; and have substantially worse displays, ergonomics, and smart watch UX. I went diving with a friend wearing a Suunto smart dive computer, and he couldn’t figure out how to silence the smart watch notifications because the UX was poor; I’ll never have that kind of issue with Apple device.
There’s a huge market for the Fenix/Epix/Descent line from Garmin, which has always been (much!) more expensive than an Apple Watch. The fitness features and general activity tracking on those is far, far better than what you get from an Apple Watch. The UX is amazing, especially when you’re underwater/wearing thick gloves/running hard. The screens are adequate, if you really want super bright punchy colors you can get that but you’ll pay for it in worse battery life. Oh, and also air integration.
True! I’m speaking as a consumer who was considering several $1200+ options actively - like, I had the tabs open and a Notion DB to catalog the pros and cons of different options. But once I saw the news about the Apple Watch Ultra, I closed the tabs, deleted the Notion DB, and ordered an Apple Watch. I’d like air integration, but vastly prefer spending $800 on an all-day every-day watch to a $1200 sometimes watch.
The Apple Watch is just too limiting for me. Between the types of activities it can track, the actual feedback during an activity being pretty barebones, the lack of competitions, and the terrible battery life I don’t understand who it’s for.
To me, it seems that your friend was too lazy to read the manual rather than poor UX.
“read the manual” is part of the UX.
Will it? I doubt it, honestly.
Huish, the makers of this app, own the majority of big names in the industry. The reason it’s called Oceanic+ is because they own Oceanic. Along with Apollo, Bare, Ollis, Zeagle and a few others. Interestingly, they don’t believe enough in this app to brand it Suunto, their more current dive watch brand.
My fear is the next Suunto watch will have subscriptions, if this app proves successful.
To my knowledge Suunto is owned by Anta Sports / Amer sports. Huish is the U.S. distributor for Suunto. Or did I miss something?
Apparently it's no longer Amer sports, according to https://www.divenewswire.com/huish-outdoors-named-distributo...
Honestly it seems more like a partnership than a distribution agreement. Huish's website (https://www.huishoutdoors.com/suunto/) and the press release itself make it sound like Suunto Outdoors is another brand like the others Huish actually owns, so I'm not confident where they stand. I always assumed Huish owned Suunto given their own site's materials.
I really hope it doesn't cause other brands to adopt the "Dive Computer As A Service" model. I like buying products that I actually own. I feel like pressure to push the cost of reliable dive computers down will do more to democratize diving than an app for an expensive smart watch.
Scuba diving is a fundamentally dangerous and expensive hobby. I don't know if this will make a big dent in the cost of a dive. FWIW a snorkel and a pair of fins are pretty cheap. For ~$50 you can have a lot of fun swimming around exploring coastal ecosystems without needing to stress about signals, equipment, safety stops, or any of that stuff. This is a lot closer to democratizing diving than anything else.
Although I am not the biggest fan of subscription models I am not sure pushing the cost down of dive computers will help democratize diving. I can't imagine it's a very cheap hobby to begin with.
Also, a quick glance, dive computers seem to be $400+, many are $1000+. The watch in question is $800 and I feel like people who are into diving aren't the type of people who find an $800 prohibitively expensive.
You can definitely get a solid dive computer for under $400, and the $1000+ are going to have features that won't be present on the Apple Watch Ultra, like air integration, lower depth ratings, etc.
Paying other people to take you diving can get pretty expensive quickly, but the dive professionals themselves generally do not make a lot of money. It is one of those things that people do professionally because they love it, not because it pays well. (Speaking only about recreational diving here, industrial diving is a whole different beast.)
Most people use dive computers in range of 200-300$, so a subscription based 700$ Apple device isn't democratizing anything, it's just bringing rent seeking to another market.
I haven't dived (dove?) in 10 years. Last gen dive computers are excellent, but super expensive. Before that, I just use a casio watch and gauges. That being said, unless regulations or recommendations have changed, you still need an analog backup gauges that usually have 3 (compass, depth and tank pressure) + extra regulator. So even if the watch decided to die, you are still safe.
I just looked at the screen shots in the article, nothing that different than my old dive computer. If I go back to being a regular recreational diver, I probably would get that watch and app.
This might be a pivotal moment on subscription based hardware. Apple is selling their hardware as a software platform _to_ companies that already sell their hardware. Will this force other companies selling dive computers to adapt and also use publish an app for Apple's platform?
As a diver it's clear to me that the target audience are future divers. We might delude ourselves on the pros and cons of our current dive computer, models and so on. But I am sure someone entering the sport will consider this along the other options.
My personal opinion, a big majority of recreational (shallow) diving does not even require a dive computer and it all comes into LARPing territory. It's good to know your depth and the time you spent underwater, that's all. I have seen people wearing a +1k USD dive computer diving at most <20m. Of course it's none of my business how they decide to part with their money.
This much money will give you a very nice dive computer, albeit terribly complex and completely overkill for most of the rec. diving. If someone is willing to spend that much on a dive computer for rec diving, I guess an apple watch is money better spent? Let's just acknowledge that a Shearwater Perdix is a tough sell to someone that wants to spend this much but dives very very occasionally and shallow.
I am just sad about the subscription model and the implications this might have if/when it proves successful.
I don't think this will be a useful dive computer for most people. When I first heard the Apple Watch would work as a dive computer I was very excited, but having spent some time thinking about it, and having done 20 dives since the watch was announced, I have changed my mind.
The first problem is battery life. I didn't have to replace the battery on my computer for the 20 dives over a week I did recently. If I had gotten a low battery warning, I could have replaced the coin cell battery in five minutes. With the Apple Watch, I would be uncomfortable starting a dive with less than 80% battery, which means remembering to charge it before every dive. If I forget to charge it, then I cannot quickly replace the battery, and I cannot switch to a backup computer if I hadn't taken it with me on my previous dives as it wouldn't know my tissue loading. Forgetting to charge the watch before any dive would mean missing the dive.
The 40m limit is not a good idea. I imagine Apple's legal department are forcing this one, but it's a really bad idea. I went slightly below 40m a few times last week, I know that breaks "the rules", but I know the risks and they honestly aren't that bad if you don't push things too far. Having my computer lock out, refuse to give me NDL times, depth info or deco stop info if needed is not a good idea, especially when you really need it at those depths.
There is also no mention of nitrox, so I assume it's not supported. That would make this the only dive computer released in the last decade that doesn't support nitrox diving. Nobody who is interested in owning a dive computer will want a computer that doesn't support nitrox.
The one good thing I see about this is the haptics. It's really easy to get alert fatigue underwater from other dive computers beeping around you. Haptics would be far better.
> With the Apple Watch, I would be uncomfortable starting a dive with less than 80% battery...
You'd get over that quickly if you owned this watch. It stays above 80% all the time, with just a few minutes on a mag charge in AM, while you're showering for example, and a few minutes in the evening (during a TV show or video game, for example), even when using it all day for work notifications and all night as a sleep monitor.
It goes 2 or 3 days without charge, and that's before their software update to get a multiple of that. Assuming a 30W+ charger brick, it's surprising how quickly it tops back to 80% ready to go another day or two. Workout mode doesn't burn much more, neither does dive.
Your other takes could improve with actual use as well. Nitrox and gas config, for example, is on the 2nd to last and last screenshots of the watch app itself.
Apple Watch Ultra has 2-3 days of battery life on a full charge, and, IME, it really achieves that in real world use.
Nitrox: you can find the answer to this by searching the web. > Is the Oceanic+ app Nitrox compatible? > Yes. Oceanic+ is only compatible with air or Nitrox diving to 130 feet (40 meters).
If 40m is a dealbreaker, fine, although you probably would want to do some research to find out what the failure mode actually is. Does it just not work at that depth, but resumes working above it? Does the watch explode? Someone on YouTube probably can answer.
I did 2-3 dives a day for 5 days with the Ultra, using the Depth app, not the full Oceanic+ app that was released today. I charged the watch every other day and didn't get below 40% battery life. I'm curious to see what happens past the 130ft limit... hopefully everything keeps working but they turn the screen yellow, which is what the Depth app does.
It's not about being useful.
It's about marketing to people that want to signal.
Are you spending 80% of your apple watch battery underwater?
I can with confidence say that I would not trust a dive computer that is rated to a maximum of 40 meters. It would be a bit like owning a car where the breaks were rated for a maximum of 110 km/h. Sure, most of the time you might stay under that limit, but for safety equipment you do want some margins.
If a person accidental loose buoyancy for a moment and end up at 41 meters, they could really end up in a terrible situation. The added stress, not being able to monitor ascent rate, and no information regarding NDL (the no decompression limit).
Humans can't survive on their own under water. Visiting there require equipment designed for that purpose. They don't need to be expensive but they do need to do the job. A 90% functional diving equipment can easily result in 100% dead diver.
Sometimes my brain works so weird. When I first saw "Oceanic+," I thought it must be another offering like "TV+" or "Fitness+." I then wondered what it might be and my first thought, I'm not joking, was that this was going to be an ocean nature documentary subscription service to compete with National Geographic on Disney+.
Dive computer? OK... that makes way more sense...
> Oceanic+ enables recreational scuba divers to take the watch they wear every day to previously unreachable depths — up to 40 meters, or 130 feet, to be exact
This is perfect, as the limit for nitrox diving (ie the most frequently used mixture of gas for recreational dives) is a little over 130 ft.
I hope someone makes a Bluetooth add-on to make an air-integrated component for this (or a new app).
That is cool. I assume that it has been tested and certified. Dive computers are critical safety gear. You really don't want them crashing on you.
Crashing would be the least of the worries in my opinion. If it crashes, you as a diver know what to do and it’s no different from any other dive computer breaking.
My major worry would be bad sensor readings or software errors leading it to provide bad instructions on how fast you can surface, or how long you need to do decompression stops. Depending on the dive, it’s a situation where differences in the displayed numbers mean the difference between a great day and serious injury.
I really hope; but also expect that this is thoroughly tested.
> If it crashes, you as a diver know what to do and it’s no different from any other dive computer breaking.
Ideally, yes. However, a crash significantly increases the chances of diver error leading to an incident. Diving without a computer requires more careful adherence to a dive plan. If you lose your dive computer and haven't been carefully following a preset plan, you should generally start the process of surfacing immediately and do so with decompression stops that have as large a margin for error as feasible and then stop diving for the day (edit: or if you've been good at staying with your buddy, you use their computer while still adding a healthy margin for error).
This is an excellent point, and one that I hadn't thought of. I've seen dive computer failure but never erroneous readings.
I was wondering this as well. The article says "Apple Watch Ultra is certified to WR100 and EN 13319, an internationally recognized standard for dive accessories, including depth gauges." - people with domain knowledge, is this 'enough' certification?
WR is standard water resistance.
EN 13319 may be sufficient, but I don't feel like buying the standard[0], to see.
Usually, you want to get PADI and NAUI on board for these types of things, and I don't see either, mentioned anywhere in the press release.
[0] https://standards.iteh.ai/catalog/standards/cen/5d35e933-ca5...
Dive training agencies like PADI and NAUI don't typically certify or endorse particular pieces of equipment such as dive computers. They sell instructional materials and supporting services to retail dive shops, which each deal in a mix of different equipment brands. So the agencies don't want to piss off their main customers by playing favorites with particular manufacturers.
I seem to remember a PADI endorsement of my old dive computer, but that was many moons ago.
They aren't just training agencies. They also certify stuff. I remember seeing their names all over my stuff, but that was many moons ago (mid-1990s. I stopped diving, after I had my noggin worked over by a noggin mechanic).
PADI and NAUI are just training agencies. They do not certify third party equipment. Perhaps they used to do something like that in the mid-1990s but that was before my time.
I was reading the description of the app, and they were talking about using it for “dive planning,” and “post-dive analysis.” This is despite the fact that it has a lot of in-dive stuff.
I suspect that they are keeping their legal derrière covered. A lot of folks will probably use them as “in-dive” computers, like a Mares or Suunto unit, but that will probably be considered an “unsupported use case.”
This is still crazy to me that most (all?) smartwatch cannot get past ~50m WR when I can buy a basic casio for a fraction of the cost with 100m to 200m WR. But then I guess using a tactile screen underwater is pretty hard. I really don't see the Apple Watch being use has anything but a gadget for diving.
edit: so the apple watch ultra has a WR of 100m. I stand corrected.
The Apple Watch Ultra is rated to 100m.
Recreational diving is regulated to 40m. The app follows the latter.
It is unlikely your Casio would be rated for recreational diving beyond the same limits either
a) 99.9% of all dives happening today are going to be <18m which is the maximum depth for PADI Open Water certified divers. And then Advanced certified is still <30m.
b) The point of a dive watch is not just to tell the time. You need to know the depth, time spent underwater, no decompression limits, safety stops etc.
c) Not that I was able to test since the crown is disabled but the Apple Watch crown is very easy to use water even with gloves.
@dang
The title should be renamed "Available today, the Oceanic+ app on Apple Watch Ultra"
Because the current title of "Apple Introduces Oceanic+" implies this is a 1st party app from Apple, which it is not.
Why change from one made up title to another when we could just use the _actual_ title: “Reach new depths with the Oceanic+ app and Apple Watch Ultra”
“Available today, the Oceanic+ app on Apple Watch Ultra” is directly quoting the sub-title, from the press release.
Seems like the proper candidate for HN story title, to avoid the marketing-speak in the actual title.
Sounds like an ad.
it is an ad
We usually change press release titles because they're usually misleading, linkbaity, or both.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
Thanks, I've changed it now. It still sounds too pressreleasey but not too bad.
No part of the definition of “introduction” implies that it is a first party app.
To introduce: “…; originate: introduced the new product in several test markets; ….” [1]
[1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/introduce
It still doesn’t imply it’s a first party product. I can “introduce Angular to my team”. That doesn’t mean I wrote Angular.
"Google introduces Angular" does mean that (even if you didn't knew what Angular is beforehand)
It absolutely doesn’t. People have been “introducing” other people for centuries.
Where in any dictionary doesn’t imply any such thing?
So if a consultant from McKinsey “introduces cloud best practices to company $x”, does that imply that McKinsey created AWS?
All your examples include "to", an specific demographic which implies it wasn't created by them, languages have a lot of subtext clues like that.
Indeed, it doesn’t imply creating a product; “introduce” can directly mean creating a product through the sense of originate: ”…create…” [1]
[1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/originate
“Words Mean Things”. Tell me where in any dictionary does “introducing” something imply who created it?
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/introduce
to create... as if for the first time;
Out of the six definitions and you conveniently skip the first one:
> to present (a person) to another so as to make acquainted.
Which is exactly what Apple did in the submitted post.
Also if you look at the 2-4th definitions. The submitted title jibes directly with what Apple did.
"Tell me where in any dictionary does “introducing” something imply who created it"
I just did, then you moved the goalposts.
If you're going to complain that he skipped the first definition (hint, subsequent are no less valid), then I'm going to complain that as the app is not a person, the first definition is invalid.
You don't need to pay the full subscription.
You just activate it when you're diving and then deactivate it when you're not.
And having done quite a bit of diving with the Apple Watch it's worth every cent.
Yet you will still void the warranty if you dive with it:
Apple Watch Ultra has a water resistance rating of 100 meters under ISO standard 22810.
Apple Watch Ultra may be used for recreational scuba diving (with a compatible third-party app from the App Store) to 40 meters, and for high-speed water sports.
Apple Watch Ultra should not be used for diving below 40 meters. Water resistance is not a permanent condition and can diminish over time. For additional information, see support.apple.com/en-us/HT205000.
> Yet you will still void the warranty if you dive with it:
Your quotes don’t say that at all. They say it’s waterproof up to 100m but you should not use it deeper than 40m. There’s a lot to do under water between 0 and 40m.
18m limit for Open Water. 30m limit for Advanced Open Water.
Almost every recreational dive site for commercial reasons would only be taking divers down to those depths.
If you're going beyond 30m then you know what you're doing and are not going to be reckless enough to use any device which is not rated for that depth. No one is going to care about warranty if they are dead.
What do you mean? It’s rated to 100m, which is quite a bit below the 40m limit for most recreational diving.
“Rated to 100m” does not mean what you think it means. It means, essentially, that it theoretically would be safe at 100m depth, assuming you lower it slowly and don’t move it about at all. IIUC, local water pressure varies significantly when you move something around underwater, which is why “100m pressure proof” does not mean “can be brought down to 100m depth”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resistant_mark
ISO 6425 is much more stringent and specifies that every single unit is pressure tested to 125% of rated capability, ie a 200M ISO 6425 watch has been individually tested at 250M for a period of time.
ISO 6425 is generally used for dive watch, eg a Rolex Submariner, not dive computer. I don't know any dive masters who wear a dive watch while diving; they seem like mostly a fashion / status symbol kind of thing? I have no interest in them anyways.
I looked at the Garmin spec sheets before buying my Apple Watch and didn't find any of their computer/watch combos listing ISO 6425. Instead they list a depth (usually 100M) and attest "Tested to engineering standard EN13319 for dive compliance", see https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/
My understanding is that before the advent of dive computers, dive watches were used for diving so that you could time your ascents and so forth. That's what lead to the development of the (quite strict) ISO 6425 standard.
Yeah, this is my understanding from talking to diver friends. As a guy who likes watches yes, they're crazy popular in the watch community.They've become kind of a genre unto themselves. Citizen, Seiko, and others make affordable ISO 6425 models. I own a few, didn't pay more than $150 for any of them.
Though, I dunno about the "status symbol" aspect. For $30 you can get a diver-style watch that looks like an actual ISO 6425 watch unless you know specifically what you're looking for. So I don't think anybody would be impressed by them. But they are fun to own and rather handsome, if you like that kind of thing.
> If Wikipedia can be trusted here, movement doesn't increase water pressure as much as we think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_watch#Water_resistance
I stand corrected, but the same article also states:
“Water Resistant 100 m […] NOT suitable for diving.”
“Water Resistant 200 m [.] Suitable for skin diving only. NOT suitable for scuba diving.”
And, IIUC, WR100 is exactly what the Apple Watch Ultra has.
Yeah, totally agree. That's why it's kind of weird/concerning that they conform to the much more lenient standard.
I've been scuba diving / freediving for more than a decade and very, very few divers ever go below 40m. The amount of training, equipment, risk, annoyance, time, ..., associated with 40m+ scuba diving just isn't worth it. Similarly, not a lot of people are capable of freediving to 40m+, and just a handful of people can freedive anywhere near 100m (without mechanical assistance). It would be very disappointing if a watch rated to 100m couldn't accommodate recreational scuba/freediving to 40m.
Sure but this rating is the same for Garmin or Suunto dive computers. EN13319, 100M water resistant. It’s industry standard.
I truly wonder. Why is Apple doing that? If I'm not mistaken, it is a small niche in terms of revenue.
My hypothesis is that this is perhaps a new approach for marketing: find hobbies that correlate the most with the populations with the biggest potential revenue, taking into account the networking and demographic effects within such a population.
Just throwing this off the top of my head. Bear with me :-).
Everything about the Ultra model is like this. It's pure aspiration porn made physical.
It worked really well for Apple in the '00s. Their computer hardware was expensive enough that most people wouldn't think to buy it over a similar PC. Today, Apple's phones, watches and tablets are much more commodity items (cue someone telling me the sales figures tell a different story). The economics are still largely the same now, but the perception of Apple hardware has changed. They use the XDR screen, the Mac Pro (the big boxy one) and now the Ultra series watch to create the sense of mystique.
I think that's basically right. They've been weaving "high-status outdoor adventuring" into their brand for a long time — think about the codenames High Sierra and Mavericks, or going to an Apple store and seeing a ski trip under planning in the sample iMessages.
A big part of the way Apple signals their products as clean, healthy, and high-status is by depicting themselves as exactly that sort of people.
(Not to imply that this is particularly disingenuous, but they know exactly what they're doing)
Diving has a much larger market than you'd initially believe.
For instance, consider all of watch brands which have basically created an entire company under the premise of diving.
Fashion is my simple answer. I think serving the niche well promotes sales among people with disposable income. People like it for looks.
There are certainly millions of people who wear Submariners without any desire to go underwater.
Though I suspect more people would regard the submariner line as better looking than any smart watch, albeit less capable.