As someone who has been to both Hamburg and Munich quite a few times I find them hard to compare. Each city has its own benefits and they are both great in their way.
I think in the end it comes down to whether you like mountains more than harbors. ;-)
Hamburg has its own charme with the harbor and the surrounding history of sailors, trade, red light districts, very old factories etc.
Munich is much more polished but also kind of crammed. Cars everywhere, lots of traffic in the streets, yes, parks also, but... it's different.
I like both cities and also beer from both cities. If you're not from Germany and decide to come over: Visit both of them and enjoy their uniqueness.
Hamburg has a harbor and is at the riverside of a large stream so that makes it a complete different setup. Munich on the other hand still has a castle in the inner city (Residenz) and has many historical buildings. Hamburg has the status of a "state" in Germany while Munich is the capital of Bavaria (a state in Germany). Both cities are rich and the rich people also celebrate the weath in both cities. If you want a party city you better go to Berlin. (Arm aber sexy (Poor but sexy)) is their slogan.
Wasn't much of the historically significant architecture in Munich destroyed? How historically significant are restored buildings on sites that were razed or heavily damaged?
Feels like going to a natural history museum and just seeing reproductions. Educational but not "real"
I went to Munich last September and didn't see any mountains from the city. I was very surprised because I flew direct from Denver and maps made it seem similarly situated. Munich and surrounding areas more closely resemble Wisconsin than anything else.
Münchner here. It is a very touristy city. Dirty? not so much in comparison to other german cities like Cologne or Berlin.
Uninviting and boring depends what you want to do. Nightlife in comparison to Berlin is poor. All the techno clubs are there. Octoberfest is a melting pot for the whole world. Americans and Australiens have a hard time digesting the amounts of beer.
I am from Munich but live in Hamburg. I have read all comments here and experienced people visiting and heckling Munich for decades now. People can talk a lot of shit about Munich, many things rightfully so.
But dirty? I have literally never heard anyone say that. If you think Munich is dirty you must be from Singapore or Japan and never visited any other city on the planet.
Interesting; from my experience, clean, calm, safe, and expensive, but absolutely not what I’d call vibrant. A lot of the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to other large cities - Berlin, London, Barcelona, etc.
(My personal theory is that it’s just too rich and developed; you need cheap ‘edgy’ areas to support the people and business ideas that make places more interesting. Plus Bavarian culture is [in a nutshell] basically Catholic Churches and beer houses/gardens, so not hugely varied.)
Idk about that. The Bavarian State Opera is very good, and all three(!) of Munich's three orchestras are world-class. Munich is a science and tech hub bringing interesting and important transients all the time. It has an amazing art collection, English Gardens that actually get used, and cultural and entertainment amenities that are well-spread across different parts of the city.
Munich has a smaller version of the Octoberfest all year around. Beer Gardens everywhere, many people wearing "Tracht". The tourists love it and the munich people love the money. It has some nice places like the English Garden or the River Side. Also the Farmers Market in the city centre is nice to hang around. It is not for the young crowd but more for the settled and wealthy ones. Very much like Zürich, but bigger. The mountains are close and the lakes around Munich are famous. Also many nice castles like Schloss Nymphenburg, the Residenz and of course the castle built by Ludwig II. Lots of historic buildings. The city was founded 1158 and parts of the old city still exist.
Well, you're right. I was comparing to places as clean, calm and safe as Munich. I only found that kind of peace in much smaller cities that were way less vibrant. I understand (and agree) with your second paragraph, but from all the "too rich and developed" places I've been, this is the most vibrant.
Except for housing, I did not find it particularly expensive. I ate out at very nice places for less than 10€ a lot of times, ice creams were amazing and cheap, too. At least compared to Spain, I did not noticed a big difference, taking into account the wealth of the city.
>A lot of the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to other large cities [...] My personal theory is that it’s just too rich and developed; you need cheap ‘edgy’ areas
As someone hailing from Cologne but with lots of friends in Munich, I tend to agree. Maybe it's the "Ruhrpott" dysfunction you're used to when you grew up in this part of Germany, but Munich always felt like a giant Apple Store, Hamburg does too but with a Protestant/Nordic spin instead of the posh Catholic south.
I think also another factor is that Munich is monocentric, the urban core absorbed districts very quickly (most people wouldn't know it these days but Bavaria used to be very underdeveloped for a long time) whereas the Ruhr area or Berlin are much more decentralized urban agglomerations, growing over a longer time, making it a bit more chaotic and sprawlish and economically hit or miss.
I think "Habsburg" is a good enough descriptor. It encompasses the Catholic, northern-influenced culture (if not actually in the north like Trieste) as well as the baroque, counter Reformation-derived artistic styles.
As someone from Munich, I often joke that if I fell unconscious and woke up in Vienna, it would take me a rather long time to figure out that I’m not in Munich.
I lived in Munich for a month a few summers ago. While I enjoyed it, and it was definitely clean, I couldn't help but describe Munich as a "city where people go to work". Pleasant, but not exciting. Very walkable, though!
> The only thing that bothered me was the building with the O2 logo. I was surprised that the city allowed it. It really stands out and ruins the view a bit. I did a quick search and found out that after that building was built, Munich had a vote to stop any new buildings over 100 meters tall. I wish they could also do something about that building now.
Why German economic growth has stalled, in a nutshell.
I find both cities, cultivate a strong "The rest is peasants" vibe - but Hamburg is quite at the top with this. It seeps through the media made there ("Der Spiegel") and the authors writting in it. Its also part of the multi-culturality and openess that comes with having a harbour - which a landlocked city "naturally has a hard time developing". So whenever you goto hamburg from the south, you recieve a ton of subtle signs about the superiority of the city and the "elb-adel" (aristocrats) and its old history ("Wir waren Hanse, wat ward ihr? Bauernvolk für den Märchenkönig bis pleite!"). The harbour of hamburg is old and awesome by the way!
The only thing that really helped to covercome these century old - was ironically the Conscription for the Bundeswehr in the cold war, intentionally mixing recruits allover germany and binding groups of friends together. That is now absent for a while- but the Ruhrpott and hamburg have missmanaged germany for quite a while now - and it shows, as subtle cracks of doubt in the superiority surface.
Cumex and Wirecard showed that elite as the lame ducks without a plan they really are.
PS: This explicitly ignores the Neo-prussians of berlin and the insults they throw at everything outside in the "incest-villages" as they call the rest of germany.
I grew up in Munich and live in Hamburg now. I would object that Hamburg isnt even close to the "Lokalpatriotismus" (patriotism about your city?) which is highly rampant in Munich. Aristocratic behavior is a thing in Hamburg but Munich? It's my hometown so let me slander...
People from Munich REALLY celebrate that they are from Munich and from kindergarten onwards a sense of snobility is distilled into your soul.
"Helles" 0.5l+ is the only allowed beer and you have to meet a "Trachten" quota (traditional clothing). The Lederhosn has to come out at least 5x per year and dear god if it is a cheap model below 300€ which is already considered trash.
A nitpick, that bothers me more, than I'd like to admit: the author talks about the former divide in Germany and the difference between Hamburg and Munich because of that. Problem is, both towns where in west Germany and not divided at all (except of course by the Weißwurstäquator ;-)).
> I know German history and how divided the country used to be, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to see these differences.
The author is not talking about Germany post-WW2, but pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent states (if we include the Austrian Empire), at least in the 19th century. Before that, the number was likely higher.
German history is a lot longer than the past century.
> German history is a lot longer than the past century.
Wish they would remember that more, but the prevailing attitude seems to be that Germany started existing in 1945 after some idiot in a previous country in the same place decided it would be a good idea to industrialise mass murder.
> pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent states
The 39 independent states is only correct for a few years in the 19th century. Summarizing the changes in number of states of the German confederation since 1815:
1815: 39 (German Confederation founded)
1817: 40 (Hesse-Homburg admitted)
1839: 41 (Limburg added)
1850: 39 (Prussia annexes two Hohenzollern duchies)
1853: 38 (Anhalt-Köthen merged)
1863: 37 (Anhalt-Bernburg merged)
1866: 36 (Confederation collapses; Prussia absorbs Hanover etc.)
1867: 26 (22 in North Confederation + 4 southern kingdoms)
1871: German Empire formed, states are no longer independent
It’s true; however it’d probably be a nice parenthetical to add context to the division bring referenced. Kind of how it’s good manners to initially spell out any acronyms at the beginning of a text.
In truth, I was a bit surprised to see the piece written in English, because it feels like the audience should be German-speaking. Whilst there is an initial paragraph discussing the different situations within the Holy Roman Empire in the 1100s, the Holy Roman Empire itself is never explained, merely assumed (in fact, it is not even mentioned by name). Perhaps it comes natural to Germans themselves that their history of unity is far smaller than their history of division.
We spent years on this area's history between elementary school and high school, and I'm from rural Kentucky. The eastern Franks. Henry V and the Pope. Barbarossa. Luther and Anabaptism. The Fredericks and Prussian civil order. Romanticism. Moltke and Bismarck. The Christian Democracy movement. Weimar. Before the obvious stuff from more-recent history.
That's an absolutely enormous amount. Your history curriculum must have been heavily influenced by a few educators of German stock or with a big interest in German-American history.
As soon as I saw the title my thoughts went to the old divide between Lutheran High Germany and Catholic Bavaria. But that's a lot because I had a coworker (from Berlin) whose grandfather was from Bavaria and ran away to sea to avoid becoming a priest, which his mother had promised God he would become for sparing his brother in WW1.
The author wasn't implying Hamburg/Munich were divided by the East/West border, but highlighting the cultural north/south divide that predates and transcends the Cold War separation.
I've been living in Munich since Feb, I've visited Hamburg several times, and previously lived in London and (rural) Portugal. (I'm British)
I'm really very surprised by some of the observations being made here, just because they are very contrary to my experience. Thoughts in no particular order:
- Hamburg's road systems took some inspiration from those of LA. To me Hamburg seemed exceptionally road/car heavy. Munich in comparison seems much more sane and European.
- The startup scene is great. I'm a member of the Werk1 co-working space there, and it is a huge and friendly community.
- Munich drivers are really great with cyclists. I eBike everywhere, and never have a had any problems with a car endangering me. They are exceptionally good at giving way to anyone in the cycle lines (bike, eBike, or scooter)
- For me it is a really very clean city.
- The English Garden (bigger the Manhattan’s Central Park) is a place of absolute magic in the summer. Floating down the river through a forest in the middle of the city?! Amazing.
- People are indeed super friendly when you talk to them. They don't do much needless smiling, but they are warm and friendly. (I'm white and look fairly presentable, and I cannot rule out that being a factor)
- You drive to the Alps in 1h ish. True, you cannot see them from them from the city. But it not much time you can be at the top of a ski resort.
- I think the comparison to Austin TX is very fair. Bavaria is conservative, Munich is not.
- The U-Bahn is pretty reliable, the S-Bahn less so. I cycle or e-scooter everywhere, so don't really notice (and even when it rains it really isn't that bad, said as a Londoner).
- I think there is more of a culture of having a stable job at large companies, perhaps in Germany in general (vs the UK). And I can see Munich feeling like 'a place people come to work' if you hang out in those groups. But I think there is is more available than just that.
Servus from Munich: as you may know: Munich is now the most unfriedly city in the world. This comes from a Mix of the Grantler, Mia San Mia and Schickeria culture. The first is the traditional grumpy nature of the typical Bavarian (especially Oberbayern). Sone say this is because of the Föhn wind (warm, dry downdraft that occurs on the leeward side of alps mountains) which can cause headache and paired with a massive beer consume even more. Mia San Mia and Schickeria is only typical in Munich: Many people from all over Germany moved to Munich in the 60s and 70s and earned money and build up an extreme snob culture seeing theirself as better as the rural people in Bavaria.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2048237/incredible-euro...
I grew up in Munich, so I’m heavily biased, but my impression is that people in Munich may appear somewhat cold/“grantlerig” on the outside, but when you actually interact on them on a personal level, they are extremely warm and welcoming. I’ve lived in several places in the world, so I have some comparison. Prague seemed similar in that regard to me: People don’t even smile at you in public, but damn are they a friendly and inviting bunch once you get to hang out with them. I felt right at home immediately.
FWIW as a (somewhat frequent) visitor this has not been my experience at all, and in comparision to other European cities I found it very warm and inviting.
Depends on the European cities you are comparing it to. Any sizable Dutch city would be much more warm and inviting in my opinion. Compared to some French, Swiss, or German cities.. Yeah, Munich is definitely one of the better ones. Hamburg is the best German city in this regard though.
> You’re close to places like Switzerland, Austria, and Italy, which makes it easy to travel.
One thing I really like about living in southwestern Germany is that I can hop onto a train at my local station at around 6am, and - after changing trains 1 time - get out in Milano Centrale at around 11am (until quite recently, there was even a direct train). From Milano Centrale, it's 2 hours to Venice or the Italian Riviera.
Paris is a 3 hour TGV trip from here. London is 5 hours, plus 1 hour transfer and checking into the Eurostar train at Paris Gare du Nord.
Milan, Paris, and London are all quicker to reach by train from here than Berlin.
It's hard to overstate how much southern Germany, Switzerland, France, and northern Italy are profiting from the new alpine tunnels being bored: Basis Brenner tunnel, Lyon-Turin tunnel, and the Gotthard base tunnel. Last one already opened 10 years ago, but it's still pretty recent when it comes to infrastructure projects of that size.
As for inner-German train transport being slow... it's thanks to a bunch of reasons, like
a) Germany having been divided in two until 30 years ago, so railways to Berlin have not been the top priority. in fact, one didn't really want to give russians, whose army mainly used railway to transport, the infrastructure to invade west Germany.
b) the German car industry is running the country and ofc they want people to drive and not use DB, so investments went/are going into the Autobahnen instead of the railways.
c) Germany both being multi-centered and shaped like a square. France has the Paris star, UK has London, and Italy is multi centered but it has this elongated shape, so south of the Po valley the high speed railroads (roughly) follow the coastlines.
Don't forget that German highspeed rail (ICE) is not running on a separate network of tracks like Shinkansen in Japan. This and your point (c) make it very hard to manage in comparison.
Hamburg is more conservative than Munich (I have lived in both cities). It is more like Austin wehen you compare it to a city in Texas. And Hamburg is in no way as hippy as San Francisco was. The closest I would compare Hamburg to is Boston.
In the golden 70s Munich was a melting pot for musicians, gay people, Hippies. They still have the nudist beach in the city centre. Try to find something like that in the US.
Now compared to Berlin I think Hamburg is still pretty conservative and I am not in a position to make apt comparisons to cities in the US but I do have to disagree with the statement that Hamburg is more conservative.
I was born and raised in Hamburg and lived there or in adjacent parts most of my life. I also visited Munich quite a few times due to a long distance relationship and I would disagree that Hamburg is more conservative. tThe people in Munich vote for conservative parties at a greater rate than the people in Hamburg and Munich never felt even remotely as multi-cultural as Hamburg. I distinctly remember walking around München for the first time and being surprised by people’s reactions to seeing a black guy walking down the street. Some people would literally stop walking and stare. Almost no Middle Eastern people either in comparison.
There is also a pretty strong divide between the north being much less religious. And one might argue that the people who are Christians are more often Protestant in the north which is arguably more progressive than the catholics in the south. If you look at Hamburg during may 1st, consider the Rote Flora building and the Schanzenviertel I think it’s quite clear that Hamburg has a pretty firmly established left-wing community. Granted if you go to Blankenese or the Neue Hafencity (areas for and of the wealthy) and talk to the people living there you might get a different picture. Anyways talking in averages I am not convinced your statement holds true today.
I think there is sort of a cultural rivalry where people from the north don’t want to get confused with the people from the south of Germany and vice versa. We make fun of their way they butcher the language and their festivities and traditional attire, and how they talk too much, and they make fun of us for being tight lipped humorless pricks.
Still in the 70s? I thought the last time that Munich had bohemians was between the two world wars. Hitler was one of them. Yes, really. He formed his ideology in that environment.
Damn, he mentioned Andy's Krabblergarten. Now it will be overrun with even more tourists.
My serious advice: Don't go there!! The Schnitzels are aweful and the Beergarden is ugly. ;-)
Too bad that Google, Apple, Intel now have offices here. This drives the rents up. Gentrification already killed the gay quarter. All luxury appartments and people now start complaining that the vibes of the quarter are gone. Who would have thought...
How is it that Hamburg's football club (HSV) is not anywhere near the level of Munich's? They are from similarly large cities, and had somewhat comparable history until it diverged in recent decades.
If you compare HSV to Hertha, Koln, Eintracht, Schalke, Werder and others HSV looks fairly normal.
Perhaps in a league if one team succeeds and builds solid foundations it has a tendency to keep ahead. Added to that in Germany it's so much harder for outside money to come in and build a team. Leipzig have done it, but just look at how fans think of them.
If you look at in England, without the external money teams of Manchester City and Chelsea a few big teams that have been dominating for decades would have continued their run. Admittedly there it would have been a big three of Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United though.
Yes, they're in two comparably large and affluent German cities (although each of these cities has numerous clubs), but when it comes to sport club success I think city details is just one factor. Ownership wealth and dedication, current management issues, and recent luck are important factors.
For example, Boston has way more championships in US "big four" sports than every US city except NYC, but there are 24 larger cities in the country. There are just a ton of factors at play (pun intended).
Uli Hoeneß as a manager professionalised German football (soccer) a lot and early understoodnhowntonmake it a business and ran the club like his personal business.
Munich is an awesome city... for a tourist. It's clean, one of the safest cities of Germany (with the exception of the Central Station) and, with the exception of some "Asi-Viertels", well maintained (particularly compared to Berlin, Frankfurt or most of NRW), the attractions are awesome, and the beer is excellent.
For locals though? Speaking as one (who fled a year ago to nearby Landshut and still has to commute)... if you think about moving here, please don't:
- public transport is way too overcrowded, no matter what type of it, and forget about commute by car unless you are rich enough to pay someone to drive for you
- The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-chieftain Söder keeps inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate the housing cost crisis.
- Munich's police are rabid if you're not white. Particularly the Central Station is not a good thing to "live while Black" (or dressed like a hippie or alternative), you'll get hounded by them because they can and will suspect you being a drug dealer, although the situation has relaxed a bit ever since cannabis got legalized federally a year ago.
- did I already mention the insane lack of housing? Seriously: prepare to either pay through your nose for short-term accomodation or couchsurfing, unless you are employed at one of the tech giants or rich enough to buy a place in cash you will likely spend a year or two until you have housing. If you are a student, that applies even more.
- a lot of Munich's infrastructure dates back to the money spigot times of the Olympic Games 1972 - and is subsequently shut down for repairs all the time because there hasn't been much invested in maintenance over the decades.
- Oktoberfest, Bauma (the construction trade fair) and the regular Champions League soccer games grind the entire city to a standstill. If you can help it, DO NOT move to any area close to the Theresienwiese (people WILL piss and even shit on your porch, I speak from personal experience) and to the Sechzger-Stadion in Giesing (in addition to the noise, 1860 fans are violent hothead hools that lead to massive disruptions for traffic every time that sorry excuse for a football club has a game).
As someone who still lives in the suburbs of munich, I want to emphasize on the horrible public transportation situation in munich. It's always under construction, nothing really works and, as soon as there is some Public Event, everything breaks down.
As someone living in Munich for more than 10 years, 5 around Hauptbahnhof and another 8 around Theresienwiese, I think you’re exaggerating quite a lot, as well as the people below. But in general people do exaggerate and complain a lot about the places they live in, especially Germans :) Munich probably has one of the best public transport systems in the world, but god forbid the S Bahn have some issues during winter or a storm, and some people have to lose their minds about what a disaster the public transport is.
I think people should appreciate more the good places they are living in, instead of trying to find something to complain in every single aspect of their lives
Munich streets are a war zone - you always gotta be the top dog. Too much traffic, way too much.
And yet I routinely see morons here and on r/de + r/Munich advocate to build even more housing for people in Munich... I mean, obviously, more housing is good, but as there is no way to meaningfully expand the capacity of public transport it's frankly useless.
> The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-chieftain Söder keeps inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate the housing cost crisis
I live there and I know this to be true, but I don't get it. I personally know tech companies that can't hire in Munich because they can't find apartments for their hirees to live in.
... If you live close by Theresienwiese, the city provides free cleaning for any accidents during Oktoberfest in your front/backyard also. I have to smile everytime I do find the note containing an emergency accident cleanup number in my mailbox :-)
Well I live very close to Theresienwiese and dont have any problems at all. During the 2 weeks of Octoberfest they clean the streets every morning at 4am and everything is clean and shiny again. Also now that the Theresienwiese have been encircled by a fence during Octoberfest the numbers of drunk people has fallen dramatically.
> inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change)
Companies go where the workforce already is. No company will waste their time to convince workforce to move to a smaller and cheaper town just for them, and workers won't move to a smaller and cheaper town just for one employer in case it doesn't work out and need to job hop quickly.
As someone who has been to both Hamburg and Munich quite a few times I find them hard to compare. Each city has its own benefits and they are both great in their way.
I think in the end it comes down to whether you like mountains more than harbors. ;-)
Hamburg has its own charme with the harbor and the surrounding history of sailors, trade, red light districts, very old factories etc.
Munich is much more polished but also kind of crammed. Cars everywhere, lots of traffic in the streets, yes, parks also, but... it's different.
I like both cities and also beer from both cities. If you're not from Germany and decide to come over: Visit both of them and enjoy their uniqueness.
Hamburg has a harbor and is at the riverside of a large stream so that makes it a complete different setup. Munich on the other hand still has a castle in the inner city (Residenz) and has many historical buildings. Hamburg has the status of a "state" in Germany while Munich is the capital of Bavaria (a state in Germany). Both cities are rich and the rich people also celebrate the weath in both cities. If you want a party city you better go to Berlin. (Arm aber sexy (Poor but sexy)) is their slogan.
> If you want a party city you better go to Berlin. (Arm aber sexy (Poor but sexy)) is their slogan.
That's a lie. Berlin's slogan is "We are the Dogshit Capital of Europe".
Wasn't much of the historically significant architecture in Munich destroyed? How historically significant are restored buildings on sites that were razed or heavily damaged?
Feels like going to a natural history museum and just seeing reproductions. Educational but not "real"
I went to Munich last September and didn't see any mountains from the city. I was very surprised because I flew direct from Denver and maps made it seem similarly situated. Munich and surrounding areas more closely resemble Wisconsin than anything else.
You can see them on sunny days when the wind blows from the south. So called "Föhn" weather.
Actual mountains are about a 90min drive from Munich (towards Garmisch).
I don't know what munich you were in, but it's one of the most uninviting, dirty and boring cities i've ever been to
Münchner here. It is a very touristy city. Dirty? not so much in comparison to other german cities like Cologne or Berlin. Uninviting and boring depends what you want to do. Nightlife in comparison to Berlin is poor. All the techno clubs are there. Octoberfest is a melting pot for the whole world. Americans and Australiens have a hard time digesting the amounts of beer.
I am from Munich but live in Hamburg. I have read all comments here and experienced people visiting and heckling Munich for decades now. People can talk a lot of shit about Munich, many things rightfully so.
But dirty? I have literally never heard anyone say that. If you think Munich is dirty you must be from Singapore or Japan and never visited any other city on the planet.
I did a research stay two summers ago in Munich and oh my God, it's the best place I've "lived" by far. So clean, so calm, yet so vibrant.
Interesting; from my experience, clean, calm, safe, and expensive, but absolutely not what I’d call vibrant. A lot of the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to other large cities - Berlin, London, Barcelona, etc.
(My personal theory is that it’s just too rich and developed; you need cheap ‘edgy’ areas to support the people and business ideas that make places more interesting. Plus Bavarian culture is [in a nutshell] basically Catholic Churches and beer houses/gardens, so not hugely varied.)
Idk about that. The Bavarian State Opera is very good, and all three(!) of Munich's three orchestras are world-class. Munich is a science and tech hub bringing interesting and important transients all the time. It has an amazing art collection, English Gardens that actually get used, and cultural and entertainment amenities that are well-spread across different parts of the city.
Munich has a smaller version of the Octoberfest all year around. Beer Gardens everywhere, many people wearing "Tracht". The tourists love it and the munich people love the money. It has some nice places like the English Garden or the River Side. Also the Farmers Market in the city centre is nice to hang around. It is not for the young crowd but more for the settled and wealthy ones. Very much like Zürich, but bigger. The mountains are close and the lakes around Munich are famous. Also many nice castles like Schloss Nymphenburg, the Residenz and of course the castle built by Ludwig II. Lots of historic buildings. The city was founded 1158 and parts of the old city still exist.
Well, you're right. I was comparing to places as clean, calm and safe as Munich. I only found that kind of peace in much smaller cities that were way less vibrant. I understand (and agree) with your second paragraph, but from all the "too rich and developed" places I've been, this is the most vibrant.
Except for housing, I did not find it particularly expensive. I ate out at very nice places for less than 10€ a lot of times, ice creams were amazing and cheap, too. At least compared to Spain, I did not noticed a big difference, taking into account the wealth of the city.
Vienna is a better version of Munich for the things you seem to like. Have you been there?
>A lot of the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to other large cities [...] My personal theory is that it’s just too rich and developed; you need cheap ‘edgy’ areas
As someone hailing from Cologne but with lots of friends in Munich, I tend to agree. Maybe it's the "Ruhrpott" dysfunction you're used to when you grew up in this part of Germany, but Munich always felt like a giant Apple Store, Hamburg does too but with a Protestant/Nordic spin instead of the posh Catholic south.
I think also another factor is that Munich is monocentric, the urban core absorbed districts very quickly (most people wouldn't know it these days but Bavaria used to be very underdeveloped for a long time) whereas the Ruhr area or Berlin are much more decentralized urban agglomerations, growing over a longer time, making it a bit more chaotic and sprawlish and economically hit or miss.
Munich, Vienna, Budapest, Prague, Trieste, Krakow, even Innsbruck, Bratislava -
I have traveled all over Europe, just about everywhere, and my favorite cities are consistently in the old Habsburg Realm.
I don't know why but that's what they all have in common.
Munich/Bavaria were not ruled by the Habsburgs, unless you want to count the whole Holy Roman Empire.
Yeah good point. Now I need to find a different commonality
I think "Habsburg" is a good enough descriptor. It encompasses the Catholic, northern-influenced culture (if not actually in the north like Trieste) as well as the baroque, counter Reformation-derived artistic styles.
They had a couple of notable 20th century leaders.
see the movie The Sound of Music
As someone from Munich, I often joke that if I fell unconscious and woke up in Vienna, it would take me a rather long time to figure out that I’m not in Munich.
If in doubt just try to open Immoscout and rent an apartment.
I lived in Munich for a month a few summers ago. While I enjoyed it, and it was definitely clean, I couldn't help but describe Munich as a "city where people go to work". Pleasant, but not exciting. Very walkable, though!
I lived there for three years, about 10 years ago, and could not agree more. Highest quality of life I have experienced.
I live there. It's the best city I ever lived in. I just wish my rent wasn't so sky high.
> The only thing that bothered me was the building with the O2 logo. I was surprised that the city allowed it. It really stands out and ruins the view a bit. I did a quick search and found out that after that building was built, Munich had a vote to stop any new buildings over 100 meters tall. I wish they could also do something about that building now.
Why German economic growth has stalled, in a nutshell.
I find both cities, cultivate a strong "The rest is peasants" vibe - but Hamburg is quite at the top with this. It seeps through the media made there ("Der Spiegel") and the authors writting in it. Its also part of the multi-culturality and openess that comes with having a harbour - which a landlocked city "naturally has a hard time developing". So whenever you goto hamburg from the south, you recieve a ton of subtle signs about the superiority of the city and the "elb-adel" (aristocrats) and its old history ("Wir waren Hanse, wat ward ihr? Bauernvolk für den Märchenkönig bis pleite!"). The harbour of hamburg is old and awesome by the way!
The only thing that really helped to covercome these century old - was ironically the Conscription for the Bundeswehr in the cold war, intentionally mixing recruits allover germany and binding groups of friends together. That is now absent for a while- but the Ruhrpott and hamburg have missmanaged germany for quite a while now - and it shows, as subtle cracks of doubt in the superiority surface.
Cumex and Wirecard showed that elite as the lame ducks without a plan they really are.
PS: This explicitly ignores the Neo-prussians of berlin and the insults they throw at everything outside in the "incest-villages" as they call the rest of germany.
I grew up in Munich and live in Hamburg now. I would object that Hamburg isnt even close to the "Lokalpatriotismus" (patriotism about your city?) which is highly rampant in Munich. Aristocratic behavior is a thing in Hamburg but Munich? It's my hometown so let me slander...
People from Munich REALLY celebrate that they are from Munich and from kindergarten onwards a sense of snobility is distilled into your soul.
"Helles" 0.5l+ is the only allowed beer and you have to meet a "Trachten" quota (traditional clothing). The Lederhosn has to come out at least 5x per year and dear god if it is a cheap model below 300€ which is already considered trash.
A nitpick, that bothers me more, than I'd like to admit: the author talks about the former divide in Germany and the difference between Hamburg and Munich because of that. Problem is, both towns where in west Germany and not divided at all (except of course by the Weißwurstäquator ;-)).
I assume you are referring to this sentence:
> I know German history and how divided the country used to be, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to see these differences.
The author is not talking about Germany post-WW2, but pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent states (if we include the Austrian Empire), at least in the 19th century. Before that, the number was likely higher.
German history is a lot longer than the past century.
> German history is a lot longer than the past century.
Wish they would remember that more, but the prevailing attitude seems to be that Germany started existing in 1945 after some idiot in a previous country in the same place decided it would be a good idea to industrialise mass murder.
> pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent states
The 39 independent states is only correct for a few years in the 19th century. Summarizing the changes in number of states of the German confederation since 1815:
It’s true; however it’d probably be a nice parenthetical to add context to the division bring referenced. Kind of how it’s good manners to initially spell out any acronyms at the beginning of a text.
> So while Munich was ruled by a single dynasty for centuries, Hamburg was more independent and focused on trade.
> There are also clear religious differences. Both cities were Catholic until the 16th century, but during the Reformation, Hamburg became Protestant.
Etc.
At this point not getting it seems willful.
In truth, I was a bit surprised to see the piece written in English, because it feels like the audience should be German-speaking. Whilst there is an initial paragraph discussing the different situations within the Holy Roman Empire in the 1100s, the Holy Roman Empire itself is never explained, merely assumed (in fact, it is not even mentioned by name). Perhaps it comes natural to Germans themselves that their history of unity is far smaller than their history of division.
We spent years on this area's history between elementary school and high school, and I'm from rural Kentucky. The eastern Franks. Henry V and the Pope. Barbarossa. Luther and Anabaptism. The Fredericks and Prussian civil order. Romanticism. Moltke and Bismarck. The Christian Democracy movement. Weimar. Before the obvious stuff from more-recent history.
That's an absolutely enormous amount. Your history curriculum must have been heavily influenced by a few educators of German stock or with a big interest in German-American history.
I read it as more of an “yeah sure, let’s dispense with the really obvious thing” type aside. Going into too much detail would be distracting.
As soon as I saw the title my thoughts went to the old divide between Lutheran High Germany and Catholic Bavaria. But that's a lot because I had a coworker (from Berlin) whose grandfather was from Bavaria and ran away to sea to avoid becoming a priest, which his mother had promised God he would become for sparing his brother in WW1.
IMHO abbreviations that you don't define are way easier to miss than context that an audience, maybe larger than originally planned, is going to need.
The irony contained in this sentence is superb.
The author wasn't implying Hamburg/Munich were divided by the East/West border, but highlighting the cultural north/south divide that predates and transcends the Cold War separation.
CTRL + F "Fischköppe" ... null.
Ze Wurstlingers are certainly not what they used to be. Practice!
I've been living in Munich since Feb, I've visited Hamburg several times, and previously lived in London and (rural) Portugal. (I'm British)
I'm really very surprised by some of the observations being made here, just because they are very contrary to my experience. Thoughts in no particular order:
- Hamburg's road systems took some inspiration from those of LA. To me Hamburg seemed exceptionally road/car heavy. Munich in comparison seems much more sane and European.
- The startup scene is great. I'm a member of the Werk1 co-working space there, and it is a huge and friendly community.
- Munich drivers are really great with cyclists. I eBike everywhere, and never have a had any problems with a car endangering me. They are exceptionally good at giving way to anyone in the cycle lines (bike, eBike, or scooter)
- For me it is a really very clean city.
- The English Garden (bigger the Manhattan’s Central Park) is a place of absolute magic in the summer. Floating down the river through a forest in the middle of the city?! Amazing.
- People are indeed super friendly when you talk to them. They don't do much needless smiling, but they are warm and friendly. (I'm white and look fairly presentable, and I cannot rule out that being a factor)
- You drive to the Alps in 1h ish. True, you cannot see them from them from the city. But it not much time you can be at the top of a ski resort.
- I think the comparison to Austin TX is very fair. Bavaria is conservative, Munich is not.
- The U-Bahn is pretty reliable, the S-Bahn less so. I cycle or e-scooter everywhere, so don't really notice (and even when it rains it really isn't that bad, said as a Londoner).
- I think there is more of a culture of having a stable job at large companies, perhaps in Germany in general (vs the UK). And I can see Munich feeling like 'a place people come to work' if you hang out in those groups. But I think there is is more available than just that.
Never been to Munich, but went to Hamburg (and Lübeck) a number of times, as we worked with a German company there.
One of the German managers was from East Germany, and was very much a "Northern German."
We used to bait him, by talking about Bavarian stereotypes, like steins and lederhosen.
He'd get cranky, and start going on about how "We're Northern Germans..."
Hamburg is a pretty industrial city, and was firebombed flat, in WWII, so most of the architecture is relatively new (like Tokyo).
Lübeck was really cool. The company we worked with, started in a 1,000-year-old building.
Servus from Munich: as you may know: Munich is now the most unfriedly city in the world. This comes from a Mix of the Grantler, Mia San Mia and Schickeria culture. The first is the traditional grumpy nature of the typical Bavarian (especially Oberbayern). Sone say this is because of the Föhn wind (warm, dry downdraft that occurs on the leeward side of alps mountains) which can cause headache and paired with a massive beer consume even more. Mia San Mia and Schickeria is only typical in Munich: Many people from all over Germany moved to Munich in the 60s and 70s and earned money and build up an extreme snob culture seeing theirself as better as the rural people in Bavaria. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2048237/incredible-euro...
I grew up in Munich, so I’m heavily biased, but my impression is that people in Munich may appear somewhat cold/“grantlerig” on the outside, but when you actually interact on them on a personal level, they are extremely warm and welcoming. I’ve lived in several places in the world, so I have some comparison. Prague seemed similar in that regard to me: People don’t even smile at you in public, but damn are they a friendly and inviting bunch once you get to hang out with them. I felt right at home immediately.
FWIW as a (somewhat frequent) visitor this has not been my experience at all, and in comparision to other European cities I found it very warm and inviting.
Depends on the European cities you are comparing it to. Any sizable Dutch city would be much more warm and inviting in my opinion. Compared to some French, Swiss, or German cities.. Yeah, Munich is definitely one of the better ones. Hamburg is the best German city in this regard though.
> You’re close to places like Switzerland, Austria, and Italy, which makes it easy to travel.
One thing I really like about living in southwestern Germany is that I can hop onto a train at my local station at around 6am, and - after changing trains 1 time - get out in Milano Centrale at around 11am (until quite recently, there was even a direct train). From Milano Centrale, it's 2 hours to Venice or the Italian Riviera.
Paris is a 3 hour TGV trip from here. London is 5 hours, plus 1 hour transfer and checking into the Eurostar train at Paris Gare du Nord.
Milan, Paris, and London are all quicker to reach by train from here than Berlin.
It's hard to overstate how much southern Germany, Switzerland, France, and northern Italy are profiting from the new alpine tunnels being bored: Basis Brenner tunnel, Lyon-Turin tunnel, and the Gotthard base tunnel. Last one already opened 10 years ago, but it's still pretty recent when it comes to infrastructure projects of that size.
As for inner-German train transport being slow... it's thanks to a bunch of reasons, like
a) Germany having been divided in two until 30 years ago, so railways to Berlin have not been the top priority. in fact, one didn't really want to give russians, whose army mainly used railway to transport, the infrastructure to invade west Germany.
b) the German car industry is running the country and ofc they want people to drive and not use DB, so investments went/are going into the Autobahnen instead of the railways.
c) Germany both being multi-centered and shaped like a square. France has the Paris star, UK has London, and Italy is multi centered but it has this elongated shape, so south of the Po valley the high speed railroads (roughly) follow the coastlines.
Don't forget that German highspeed rail (ICE) is not running on a separate network of tracks like Shinkansen in Japan. This and your point (c) make it very hard to manage in comparison.
You get the same feeling from here I am located, easy weekend trips between France, Belgium and Netherlands to chose from, a couple of hours away.
Now if the getting all the train connections wasn't like going to the casino playing roulette.
"Besides Munich, I’ve also been to Berlin and Magdeburg, but Munich gave me a very different impression."
Hamburg and Munich are like San Francisco and Houston.
Sure, Munich is more progressive than the rest of Bavaria, but it's still in Bavaria.
Hamburg is more conservative than Munich (I have lived in both cities). It is more like Austin wehen you compare it to a city in Texas. And Hamburg is in no way as hippy as San Francisco was. The closest I would compare Hamburg to is Boston.
In the golden 70s Munich was a melting pot for musicians, gay people, Hippies. They still have the nudist beach in the city centre. Try to find something like that in the US.
Now compared to Berlin I think Hamburg is still pretty conservative and I am not in a position to make apt comparisons to cities in the US but I do have to disagree with the statement that Hamburg is more conservative.
I was born and raised in Hamburg and lived there or in adjacent parts most of my life. I also visited Munich quite a few times due to a long distance relationship and I would disagree that Hamburg is more conservative. tThe people in Munich vote for conservative parties at a greater rate than the people in Hamburg and Munich never felt even remotely as multi-cultural as Hamburg. I distinctly remember walking around München for the first time and being surprised by people’s reactions to seeing a black guy walking down the street. Some people would literally stop walking and stare. Almost no Middle Eastern people either in comparison. There is also a pretty strong divide between the north being much less religious. And one might argue that the people who are Christians are more often Protestant in the north which is arguably more progressive than the catholics in the south. If you look at Hamburg during may 1st, consider the Rote Flora building and the Schanzenviertel I think it’s quite clear that Hamburg has a pretty firmly established left-wing community. Granted if you go to Blankenese or the Neue Hafencity (areas for and of the wealthy) and talk to the people living there you might get a different picture. Anyways talking in averages I am not convinced your statement holds true today.
I think there is sort of a cultural rivalry where people from the north don’t want to get confused with the people from the south of Germany and vice versa. We make fun of their way they butcher the language and their festivities and traditional attire, and how they talk too much, and they make fun of us for being tight lipped humorless pricks.
Still in the 70s? I thought the last time that Munich had bohemians was between the two world wars. Hitler was one of them. Yes, really. He formed his ideology in that environment.
Especially compared to Hamburg and Berlin, which, comparatively, lean a lot more left politically speaking.
Damn, he mentioned Andy's Krabblergarten. Now it will be overrun with even more tourists. My serious advice: Don't go there!! The Schnitzels are aweful and the Beergarden is ugly. ;-)
Too bad that Google, Apple, Intel now have offices here. This drives the rents up. Gentrification already killed the gay quarter. All luxury appartments and people now start complaining that the vibes of the quarter are gone. Who would have thought...
Yes, agreed, never go there! The schnitzel is small and horrible! :)
How is it that Hamburg's football club (HSV) is not anywhere near the level of Munich's? They are from similarly large cities, and had somewhat comparable history until it diverged in recent decades.
FCB are the anomaly.
If you compare HSV to Hertha, Koln, Eintracht, Schalke, Werder and others HSV looks fairly normal.
Perhaps in a league if one team succeeds and builds solid foundations it has a tendency to keep ahead. Added to that in Germany it's so much harder for outside money to come in and build a team. Leipzig have done it, but just look at how fans think of them.
If you look at in England, without the external money teams of Manchester City and Chelsea a few big teams that have been dominating for decades would have continued their run. Admittedly there it would have been a big three of Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United though.
Yes, they're in two comparably large and affluent German cities (although each of these cities has numerous clubs), but when it comes to sport club success I think city details is just one factor. Ownership wealth and dedication, current management issues, and recent luck are important factors.
For example, Boston has way more championships in US "big four" sports than every US city except NYC, but there are 24 larger cities in the country. There are just a ton of factors at play (pun intended).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_by_number_...
Uli Hoeneß as a manager professionalised German football (soccer) a lot and early understoodnhowntonmake it a business and ran the club like his personal business.
I would have opened with a picture of a big open mouth approaching :)
From a hamburger's perspective, I'm sure Munich looks like munchin'.
Munich is an awesome city... for a tourist. It's clean, one of the safest cities of Germany (with the exception of the Central Station) and, with the exception of some "Asi-Viertels", well maintained (particularly compared to Berlin, Frankfurt or most of NRW), the attractions are awesome, and the beer is excellent.
For locals though? Speaking as one (who fled a year ago to nearby Landshut and still has to commute)... if you think about moving here, please don't:
- public transport is way too overcrowded, no matter what type of it, and forget about commute by car unless you are rich enough to pay someone to drive for you
- The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-chieftain Söder keeps inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate the housing cost crisis.
- Munich's police are rabid if you're not white. Particularly the Central Station is not a good thing to "live while Black" (or dressed like a hippie or alternative), you'll get hounded by them because they can and will suspect you being a drug dealer, although the situation has relaxed a bit ever since cannabis got legalized federally a year ago.
- did I already mention the insane lack of housing? Seriously: prepare to either pay through your nose for short-term accomodation or couchsurfing, unless you are employed at one of the tech giants or rich enough to buy a place in cash you will likely spend a year or two until you have housing. If you are a student, that applies even more.
- a lot of Munich's infrastructure dates back to the money spigot times of the Olympic Games 1972 - and is subsequently shut down for repairs all the time because there hasn't been much invested in maintenance over the decades.
- Oktoberfest, Bauma (the construction trade fair) and the regular Champions League soccer games grind the entire city to a standstill. If you can help it, DO NOT move to any area close to the Theresienwiese (people WILL piss and even shit on your porch, I speak from personal experience) and to the Sechzger-Stadion in Giesing (in addition to the noise, 1860 fans are violent hothead hools that lead to massive disruptions for traffic every time that sorry excuse for a football club has a game).
So it's busy, expensive and hard to find a place to live. Sounds like any popular city that lots of people want to move to.
People want to work in companies that pay a lot. They are usually not aware of intricacies of the city that the work is in.
As someone who still lives in the suburbs of munich, I want to emphasize on the horrible public transportation situation in munich. It's always under construction, nothing really works and, as soon as there is some Public Event, everything breaks down.
Well, about the public transport being always under construction, yes, it is. But I think it’s a good thing.
First there is quite some money put into public transportation which is great.
Second, it has to be modernized all the time to accommodate for the growing passenger numbers and city growth.
Last but not least, for a long time there was no investment done into public transportation in Munich, so now they have to do more to keep up.
I like it and I would not like to live in a city which doesn’t invest in its public transportation system.
As someone living in Munich for more than 10 years, 5 around Hauptbahnhof and another 8 around Theresienwiese, I think you’re exaggerating quite a lot, as well as the people below. But in general people do exaggerate and complain a lot about the places they live in, especially Germans :) Munich probably has one of the best public transport systems in the world, but god forbid the S Bahn have some issues during winter or a storm, and some people have to lose their minds about what a disaster the public transport is.
I think people should appreciate more the good places they are living in, instead of trying to find something to complain in every single aspect of their lives
Can confirm every single point you made.
I’d add that riding a bike is also quite stressful at times.
Munich streets are a war zone - you always gotta be the top dog. Too much traffic, way too much.
And yet I routinely see morons here and on r/de + r/Munich advocate to build even more housing for people in Munich... I mean, obviously, more housing is good, but as there is no way to meaningfully expand the capacity of public transport it's frankly useless.
OP's article touches on this. This city is too crowded man. There are too many people on too little space
It's quite the opposite of moronic to build more housing where there is demand.
> The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-chieftain Söder keeps inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate the housing cost crisis
I live there and I know this to be true, but I don't get it. I personally know tech companies that can't hire in Munich because they can't find apartments for their hirees to live in.
... If you live close by Theresienwiese, the city provides free cleaning for any accidents during Oktoberfest in your front/backyard also. I have to smile everytime I do find the note containing an emergency accident cleanup number in my mailbox :-)
Well I live very close to Theresienwiese and dont have any problems at all. During the 2 weeks of Octoberfest they clean the streets every morning at 4am and everything is clean and shiny again. Also now that the Theresienwiese have been encircled by a fence during Octoberfest the numbers of drunk people has fallen dramatically.
> inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change)
Companies go where the workforce already is. No company will waste their time to convince workforce to move to a smaller and cheaper town just for them, and workers won't move to a smaller and cheaper town just for one employer in case it doesn't work out and need to job hop quickly.
Have to admit, I first read, "munching from a hamburger's perspective", expecting a satire about the trauma a burger goes through while being eaten.
I was really hoping that this was about a grilled ground beef sandwich opining on a German city :(
Who do you think has the most interesting time of it? People from Hamburg, Lesbos, or Frankfurt?
Those are the only three I could think of, tricky to put together a search query to find more.
Dijon, Bologna, Cologne, Wien
Berlin, Parma, Champagne, Fucking
The entire country of Chile.
Türkiye's just a spoilsport in this game.
Cross out the last one, they changed the name to Fugging
I was extremely disappointed when I clicked through...
This makes me curious of contrasting perspectives between a Hamburger and a Frankfurter.